LDS Freedom Forum

So this weekend I was on a double date with a missionary who just recently returned home from Russia. He served in Southern Siberia also close to the borders of Mongolia, Kazakhstan, etc. He flat out told me that people all over the place who have been baptized are receiving their patriarchal blessings and NOT being put into Ephraim. They are more likely to be in the lost tribes of Dan, Asher, Japeth, Reuben, etc.

Interesting!

It doesn't surprise me at all, what's cooler is when your whole family is made out of three or four different tribes.

I have a son who is from the tribe of Manasseh, but my others so far are Ephraim. I'm Ephraim, too.

Interesting, PJ. I can see how people in the path of the exodus of the 10 Tribes could have gotten mixed in or even had family groups break off from the main body as it traveled north. Did your RM friend speculate that the 10 Tribes were in Siberia or Russia?

D&C 133:26
26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.

We know that the Lost 10 Tribes went up into the North countries and will return from there. They also have prophets among them. John the Beloved is administering among them.

Here are some theories I have read about where these Lost Tribes are.

1.Hollow Earth Theory. They are living within the Earth.
2.They are living on another planet/moon just as the people of Enoch are.
3.They are somewhere on the earth mixed in with the population.

If they are in our midst, how do their prophets communicate with them and John visits them?

Still Learning
OMD

I'm from the tribe of Thor, take that Darren!

OK, kidding aside, we talked about this a year or 2 ago. I served a mission in Sweden and spent some time up north in that country in Lappland. There are people up there called the Lapplanders who actually ride in sleds pulled by reindeer. Pretty cool stuff. Anyway, those I met and was able to speak with are interesting people, and the Spirit witnessed to me that the blood of Israel was very strong among them.

Shawn

I must be really exotic because I'm from Ephraim too.

Oldemandalton wrote:
2.They are living on another planet/moon just as the people of Enoch are.


OMD

That's my guess for the main body.

Oldemandalton wrote:Interesting, PJ. Here are some theories I have read about where these Lost Tribes are.

1.Hollow Earth Theory. They are living within the Earth.
2.They are living on another planet/moon just as the people of Enoch are.
3.They are somewhere on the earth mixed in with the population.

If they are in our midst, how do their prophets communicate with them and John visits them?

Still Learning
OMD

The lost 10 tribes returning enmasse is a MYTH. The scripture you quote is a symbolic representation of the events of the last days. Our prophets are the only men with the authority of the priesthood on the earth. Read the book quoted below.

Bruce R. McConkie states in his book, A NEW WITNESS FOR THE ARTICLES OF FAITH:
"There is something mysterious and fascinating about believing the Ten Tribes are behind an iceberg somewhere in the land of the north, or that they are on some distant planet that will one day join itself with the earth, or that the tribe of Dan is in Denmark, the tribe of Reuben in Russia, and so forth. A common cliché asserts: "If we knew where the Lost Tribes were, they would not be lost." True it is that they are lost from the knowledge of the world; they are not seen and recognized as the kingdom they once were; but in general terms, their whereabouts is known. They are scattered in all the nations of the earth, primarily in the nations north of the lands of their first inheritance."

A bunch of them are living in my basement.

last time I checked Ephraim is a lost tribe.

D&C 133, I believe they may have been taken up as Enoch, or they may be in the center of the earth, however, I also believe there may be a few remenants here on earth. I also believe because they were more rightious that they will be more advanced, thus being able to destroy the Enimies of Ephriam.

26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.
27 And an ahighway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.
28 Their enemies shall become a prey unto them,
29 And in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools of living water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land.
30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.
31 And the boundaries of the everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence.
32 And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.
33 And they shall be filled with songs of everlasting joy.
34 Behold, this is the ablessing of the beverlasting God upon the tribes of Israel, and the richer blessing upon the head of Ephraim and his fellows.
35 And they also of the tribe of Judah, after their pain, shall be sanctified in choliness before the Lord, to dwell in his presence day and night, forever and ever.
36 And now, verily saith the Lord, that these things might be known among you, O inhabitants of the earth, I have sent forth mine angel flying through the midst of heaven, having the everlasting bgospel, who hath appeared unto some and hath committed it unto man, who shall appear unto many that dwell on the earth.

will wrote:D&C 133, I believe they may have been taken up as Enoch, or they may be in the center of the earth, however, I also believe there may be a few remenants here on earth. I also believe because they were more rightious that they will be more advanced, thus being able to destroy the Enimies of Ephriam.

I think the center of the earth may be a tad warm for them. 4000 degrees is not a balmy day in Daytona.

Last I checked, WE were living on another planet! At least the sun is shining today.

James E. Talmadge speaking at General Conference in 1916 and again in 1917 said that they were in a body and would return as such. I don't have the conference report but if any of you have Lund's book on the 2nd coming you'll find it in there for the exact quote.
McConkie also said that they would not return until after the 2nd Coming but I believe it is in the Old Testament Commentary published by the Church that you will find that it says they would return before the 2nd Coming.
Sorry I don't have the references in front of me but I'm on the road right now.
Elder McConkie was a great scholar of the scriptures but human like the rest of us.

Got your back, Markod.

2 NEPHI 29:13
13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews, and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel ; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.

It seems that it is a reasonable assumption that if the lost tribes are to bring their records with them that the lost tribes existed as a coherent group. We know that the Savior appeared to the lost tribes as a group after His appearance to the Nephites, again substantiating that the lost tribes were as a group.

JACOB 5:62-76
The Olive Tree allegory in Jacob is very clear that there were three natural branches (v 39) or groups of Israel that were planted intact throughout the vineyard. These groups were to be grafted back into the olive tree in reverse order that they were taken away (v 63-64). First to be grafted back would be the Lamanites (v 25-26) who were taken away in 600 B.C. This work is well in progress. Then would be the Jews who were taken in 607 B.C. The tribe of Judah is BEGINNING to accept Christ as the Messiah and are BEGINNING to gather to the land of their inheritance (2 Nephi 30:7). Last to be grafted in will be the Ten Tribes who were taken about 721 B.C. Jacob does not give many details of when this grafting in will occur but we do know that it will occur after the start of the Jews grafting and before the Millennium (v 75-76).

HC, J SMITH 1:176
John the Revelator is among the lost tribes to prepare them for their return from their long DISPERSION, to again possess the land of their fathers.

How can this be if they are dispersed among the population?

CR, JE TALMAGE APR:1916
But some people say that prediction is to be explained in this way: A gathering is in progress, and has been in progress from the early days of this Church; and thus the "Lost Tribes" are now being gathered; but that we are not to look for the return of any body of people now unknown as to their whereabouts. True, the gathering is in progress, this is a gathering dispensation; but the prophecy stands that the tribes shall be brought forth from their hiding place bringing their scriptures with them, which scriptures shall become one with the scriptures of the Jews, the holy Bible, and with the scriptures of the Nephites, the Book of Mormon, and with the scriptures of the Latter-day Saints as embodied in the volumes of modern revelation.
.
CR, JE TALMAGE OCT:1916
The tribes shall come; they are not lost unto the Lord; they shall be brought forth as hath been predicted; and I say unto you there are those now living? aye, some here present? who shall live to read the records of the Lost Tribes of Israel, which shall be made one with the record of the Jews, or the Holy Bible, and the record of the Nephites, or the Book of Mormon, even as the Lord hath predicted; and those records, which the tribes lost to man but yet to be found again shall bring, shall tell of the visit of the resurrected Christ to them, after He had manifested Himself to the Nephites upon this continent. For, as not one jot or tittle of the Law has been permitted to fail, so surely no jot or title of the Gospel shall go unfulfilled.
I have heard it said that the predictions relative to the coming of the Christ are to be explained in a figurative way, that he is to dwell in the hearts of men and that is the Second Advent. Verily, the Christ shall come in person and shall be seen of the righteous and shall stand upon the earth and reign as rightful King and Lord and shall send forth the law for the government of the world.

How can there be an event like the Savior's visit to the Nephites if the 10 Tribes are scattered among the people of the world?

CR, JH TAYLOR OCT:1937
Criticism may be helpful or detrimental, helpful if it increases our knowledge of the revealed word, detrimental when it insists on an interpretation that is not in harmony with the whole message of the book or the accepted doctrine of the Church. For instance, a man said to me the other day: "Do you know where the Lost Tribes are?" I said: "Well, no, I do not know where they are."
"Well," he said, "do you think they are at the North Pole?" I said: "No, I do not know if they are up at the North Pole." (Of course the Russians and others were flying back and forth.) "Do you think they are down to the South Pole?"
I told him, "No, I think perhaps they are not there."
He said: "Do you think they are up in some star or some other place?"
I said: "I do not know where they are. All that I can tell you is what President Grant has said that they are lost."
"Well," he said to me, "I do not think they are lost. They are found."
Then he made the explanation that they are all safely located over in Europe, and that they are gathering here in Zion and bringing their records with them. (He was referring to their genealogical records.) I might have argued, "I understood that the ice was going to flow down in their presence when they came forth."
Likely he would have answered, "But the ice is flowing down from the north all the time."
Then I thought of the idea that if Christ left his message in Jerusalem, along with a written record by his disciples of his life and teachings, and then came to America and left his message here, and the Indians had a record and a tradition still existing among them concerning the visit of the Christ, undoubtedly the Lost Tribes whom Christ said he was going to visit would at least have a tradition about his visit among them and also, I believe, a written record as in the other two cases.
Well, that thought is going the rounds. We are not satisfied to leave things as they are and wait for additional revelation from the Lord. To many it is embarrassing to talk about a lost people when to all appearances the earth has been thoroughly explored. In order to harmonize an apparent discrepancy, we assume an explanation instead of waiting for revelation on the subject. This bewilders people and makes them think that perhaps Joseph Smith was wrong in his statement concerning the Ten Tribes.

How can the 10 Tribes be dispersed if they have been visited by The Savior and John the Revelator which events were recorded by their historians in scriptures that are comparable to the Book of Mormon?

I believe that some were scattered as they escaped Assyria. There is a main body somewhere that is lost to the knowledge to the world. They have scripture and being human I am sure they have seen rise and declines just as we have. My opinion is that they are not on this earth, but I can’t prove it. Just speculation but so is everything else that is not scripturally based.

OMD

its a good thread

i think there are som econflicting answers in there

if in doubt, go with the canonised scripture i say

my only question is, please explain how you and your spouse can be of say ephriam, and you can have 5 kids, 4 from ephraim and 1 from another

unless there was a mix up at the hospital it simply doesnt make sense.

also, when readin gup on israel, gentiles, jews etc, please remember this context

1) Jew = descendants of the Tribe of Judah ONLY
2) Israel = people who are NOW LDS

Note LDS once baptised and confirmed then have the literal blood flowing in their body and are inherited into the house of israel

dont forget there are promises of Israel
Promises for Abraham (which include his sons of Ishmael also)

and finally, in regards to the middle east- they are ALL so intermarried and intermixed that to call one this, and another that, simply by their religious affiliation in 2009, is bordering on pointless.

then there is the gathering to zion, which as i understand is all over now, as in they have officially stopped it

Oldemandalton wrote:Interesting, PJ. I can see how people in the path of the exodus of the 10 Tribes could have gotten mixed in or even had family groups break off from the main body as it traveled north. Did your RM friend speculate that the 10 Tribes were in Siberia or Russia?

D&C 133:26
26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.

We know that the Lost 10 Tribes went up into the North countries and will return from there. They also have prophets among them. John the Beloved is administering among them.

Here are some theories I have read about where these Lost Tribes are.

1.Hollow Earth Theory. They are living within the Earth.
2.They are living on another planet/moon just as the people of Enoch are.
3.They are somewhere on the earth mixed in with the population.

If they are in our midst, how do their prophets communicate with them and John visits them?

Still Learning
OMD

He didn't have to speculate. He served in Siberia

Elder Orson Pratt. “The Prophet Joseph once in my hearing advanced his opinion that the Ten Tribes were separated from the Earth or a portion of the Earth was, by a miracle, broken off and that the Ten Tribes were taken away with it, and that in the latter days it would be restored to the Earth or be let down in the polar regions.” (The Letter Box, as quoted in The Lost Tribes, p. 50.)


Elder Parley Pratt, Orson Pratt’s brother and an Apostle, said, “The stars [planets] which will fall to earth are fragments, which have been broken off from the earth from time to time in the mighty convulsions of nature …. These all must be restored again at the ‘times of restitution of all things.’ …When these fragments (some of which are vastly larger than the present earth) are brought back and joined to this earth, it will cause a convulsion of all nature …. The mountains will flow down, the valley rise, the sea retire to its own place, the islands and continents will be removed, and the earth be rolled together as a scroll.” (The Millennial Star, 1:258.)


From an extended discussion with the Prophet (Joseph) about the mechanisms behind such planetary encounters by an early church member, Homer M. Brown, great grandfather of Elder Hugh B. Brown, recalled these details of Joseph’s explanation. “Scientists will tell you … that two planets coming together would be disastrous to both. But, when two planets … are traveling in the same direction and one of them with a little greater velocity than the other, it would not be disastrous because the one traveling faster would overtake the other.

“Now, what would cause the mountains of ice to melt quicker than the heat caused by the friction of the two planets coming together?

“Now, Brother Brown, at the present time this earth is rotating very rapidly. When this planet returns it will make the earth much heavier, and it will then revolve slower, and that will account for the waters receding from the earth ….” (The Last Days, pp. 90, 91.)

Emmanuel Goldstein wrote:

Oldemandalton wrote:Interesting, PJ. Here are some theories I have read about where these Lost Tribes are.

1.Hollow Earth Theory. They are living within the Earth.
2.They are living on another planet/moon just as the people of Enoch are.
3.They are somewhere on the earth mixed in with the population.

If they are in our midst, how do their prophets communicate with them and John visits them?

Still Learning
OMD

The lost 10 tribes returning enmasse is a MYTH. The scripture you quote is a symbolic representation of the events of the last days. Our prophets are the only men with the authority of the priesthood on the earth. Read the book quoted below.

Bruce R. McConkie states in his book, A NEW WITNESS FOR THE ARTICLES OF FAITH:
"There is something mysterious and fascinating about believing the Ten Tribes are behind an iceberg somewhere in the land of the north, or that they are on some distant planet that will one day join itself with the earth, or that the tribe of Dan is in Denmark, the tribe of Reuben in Russia, and so forth. A common cliché asserts: "If we knew where the Lost Tribes were, they would not be lost." True it is that they are lost from the knowledge of the world; they are not seen and recognized as the kingdom they once were; but in general terms, their whereabouts is known. They are scattered in all the nations of the earth, primarily in the nations north of the lands of their first inheritance."

I believe as you stated later in this post, that they are in the nations north of the lands of their inheritance (Armenia to Mongolia, etc.) The fact that they won't be converted or returned in a group is McConkie speculation. I love the man, but he loved to pretend he just knew what was what - well he was wrong about blacks so I wonder what else he was wrong about. I think they will return in a group, because that is exactly what the scriptures teach will be the mission of the 144,000.

Emmanuel Goldstein wrote: The lost 10 tribes returning enmasse is a MYTH. The scripture you quote is a symbolic representation of the events of the last days.

Parley P Pratt said no Prophecy is symbolic, but literal. He compared it to people saying the Noah story was just symbolic, and what a bunch of crud that was.

Other Prophets have said similar. Their were Prophets on both the New World and Old, so just because there is only one with all the keys, they could still have a Priesthood leader like those that followed Prophets in both America and Jerusalem at the same time.

Calling it a myth is a bit harsh, I think that any contradiction of the scripture sighted would need to be studies more. Elder McConkie didn't agree on a lot of issues with the other brethren. Maybe this is another.

Follow the majority of the Brethren. The Prophet Joseph said this was the key that would not rust.

Time will tell and speculation will become myth.

We have some exciting times ahead of us! I hope we can ride the bucking bull.

[From pjbrownie;
I believe as you stated later in this post, that they are in the nations north of the lands of their inheritance (Armenia to Mongolia, etc.) The fact that they won't be converted or returned in a group is McConkie speculation. I love the man, but he loved to pretend he just knew what was what - well he was wrong about blacks so I wonder what else he was wrong about. I think they will return in a group, because that is exactly what the scriptures teach will be the mission of the 144,000.]

PJ, do you think that the 10 Tribes were totally dispersed up in the “north countries” or that just some of them left the main body as it moved? Sorry, I am a little confused.

OMD

Regarding Patriarchal bloodlines, it was taught by Brigham Young (I think) that when we receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost, our blood can be literally transformed and we are grafted in to the house of Israel. We do not know which tribe we will be grafted into to, but if we do not already have blood from a tribe of Israel (we have gentile blood), our blood will physically change and we will be grafted in. I believe this happens when we actually receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost (not necessarily when we are during the actual Confirmation ordinance but it may happen then). The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 150). This could account for members of the same family all being of different bloodlines. I personally wonder if sometimes families may have mixed blood and maybe certain members have stronger blood or traits from a particular tribe? I am sure that there are cases where some have blood from multiple tribes but they need to be assigned somewhere.

D&C 133:26-33
26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.
27 And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.
28 Their enemies shall become a prey unto them,
29 And in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools of living water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land.
30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.
31 And the boundaries of the everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence.
32 And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.
33 And they shall be filled with songs of everlasting joy.

Here are some big Ifs I have speculated about when it comes to the 10 Lost Tribes and of the people of Enoch whom I believe are not on our earth.

In the last 200 years we have gone from; riding horses to space travel, telegraph to children owning cell phones, abacus to super computer, gun powder to nuclear weapons.

How much more advanced in technology could the people of Enoch be over the past 5000 years they have been away?

The Lost 10 tribes have been gone for 2700 years. Could they as well have advanced far beyond our own technology?

As you can tell I am a Sci Fi fan and have always wondered how far advanced these people may have gone. Especially the perfect translated beings of Enoch. In order to survive their ordeals were they allowed a higher technology than we have? Of course this may not be the case but is interesting to speculate. At least I believe that I will be alive to see their return. In verse 30 there is a mention of treasure. Is this gold and silver, technology, their scriptures or all of the above?

Any other weird people out there like me or do I need a white jacket with the extra long sleeves.

OMD

Oldemandalton wrote:[From pjbrownie;
I believe as you stated later in this post, that they are in the nations north of the lands of their inheritance (Armenia to Mongolia, etc.) The fact that they won't be converted or returned in a group is McConkie speculation. I love the man, but he loved to pretend he just knew what was what - well he was wrong about blacks so I wonder what else he was wrong about. I think they will return in a group, because that is exactly what the scriptures teach will be the mission of the 144,000.]

PJ, do you think that the 10 Tribes were totally dispersed up in the “north countries” or that just some of them left the main body as it moved? Sorry, I am a little confused.

OMD

I don't know. I think that they are probably dispersed from the main body (in other words, there is no main body out there). John the Revelator has been ministering to them in their scattered diaspora. Yes there are scriptures, and there may have been a gathering of some such Israelites in the meridian of time (but I tend to believe that those scriptures are generally lost as was the BOM) and that there is no main body (Jacob 5). At the time of the 144,000 after the establishment of New Jerusalem, they will be gathered, first as a group (similar to how Church members gather now - to stakes and wards) and then come as that group to NJ through the highway cast up (probably caused by the merging of continents over the Bering Strait) to America. They will have recovered their scriptures by then. I don't think there is some powerful group sitting out there, but they will return in a group through a process.