Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

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NewEliza
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by NewEliza »

ransomme wrote: April 5th, 2021, 7:33 am
NewEliza wrote: March 31st, 2021, 1:00 pm
abijah` wrote: March 31st, 2021, 12:47 pm
JK4Woods wrote: March 31st, 2021, 11:39 am What..?!? We get recycled..?!? Sentient beings, or those who refuse to climb?
I had a dream (don't think it was inspired or anything) where I woke up thinking that maybe animals are just the portions of those spirits that could still be used and divided up from the evil/corrupted/unredeemable will of those spirits, and maybe that's why animals don't have the sentient agency mankind does. Because that portion (the will / agency) was consigned to outer darkness, and the rest was "saved" in the sense God could still use that part of the intelligence to make a creature that was good and glorifiable.

Just a waking thought I had once though.
Yeah I totally believe this.


But I also believe that all intelligences are exactly the same, there aren’t “human intelligences” and “animal intelligences ” so to me the eternal progression is more about learning how to be a good steward in your own sphere, over the body and life god gave you, and then moving to a higher challenge until you reach humanity. And then hopefully never having to ‘start over.’



(Braces self)
No need to brace yourself, but what about things having a "sphere of creation" and an "enjoyment of their eternal felicity" within that sphere?

D&C 77
2 Q. What are we to understand by the four beasts, spoken of in the same verse? A. They are figurative expressions, used by the Revelator, John, in describing heaven, the paradise of God, the happiness of man, and of beasts, and of creeping things, and of the fowls of the air; that which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual; the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created.

3 Q. Are the four beasts limited to individual beasts, or do they represent classes or orders? A. They are limited to four individual beasts, which were shown to John, to represent the glory of the classes of beings in their destined border or sphere of creation, in the enjoyment of their eternal felicity.
That’s great but that doesn’t mean those intelligences stay within the bodies of that sphere forever.

Unles you believe that some intelligences are different than others somehow.

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ransomme
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by ransomme »

NewEliza wrote: April 5th, 2021, 9:03 am
ransomme wrote: April 5th, 2021, 7:33 am
NewEliza wrote: March 31st, 2021, 1:00 pm
abijah` wrote: March 31st, 2021, 12:47 pm

I had a dream (don't think it was inspired or anything) where I woke up thinking that maybe animals are just the portions of those spirits that could still be used and divided up from the evil/corrupted/unredeemable will of those spirits, and maybe that's why animals don't have the sentient agency mankind does. Because that portion (the will / agency) was consigned to outer darkness, and the rest was "saved" in the sense God could still use that part of the intelligence to make a creature that was good and glorifiable.

Just a waking thought I had once though.
Yeah I totally believe this.


But I also believe that all intelligences are exactly the same, there aren’t “human intelligences” and “animal intelligences ” so to me the eternal progression is more about learning how to be a good steward in your own sphere, over the body and life god gave you, and then moving to a higher challenge until you reach humanity. And then hopefully never having to ‘start over.’



(Braces self)
No need to brace yourself, but what about things having a "sphere of creation" and an "enjoyment of their eternal felicity" within that sphere?

D&C 77
2 Q. What are we to understand by the four beasts, spoken of in the same verse? A. They are figurative expressions, used by the Revelator, John, in describing heaven, the paradise of God, the happiness of man, and of beasts, and of creeping things, and of the fowls of the air; that which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual; the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created.

3 Q. Are the four beasts limited to individual beasts, or do they represent classes or orders? A. They are limited to four individual beasts, which were shown to John, to represent the glory of the classes of beings in their destined border or sphere of creation, in the enjoyment of their eternal felicity.
That’s great but that doesn’t mean those intelligences stay within the bodies of that sphere forever.

Unles you believe that some intelligences are different than others somehow.
Well there is Abraham 3,
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.


Co-eternal but no coequal

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Luke
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Luke »

ransomme wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:16 pm Co-eternal but no coequal
Not according to Joseph

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ransomme
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by ransomme »

Luke wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:25 pm
ransomme wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:16 pm Co-eternal but no coequal
Not according to Joseph
"The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal (3), a with God himself. I know that my testimony is true;" - (TPJS 353)

footnote (3) - "Undoubtedly the proper word here would be “co-eternal,” not “coequal.” This illustrates the imperfection of the report made of the sermon. For surely the mind of man is not co-equal with God except in the matter of its eternity. It is the direct statement in the Book of Abraham—accepted by the Church as scripture—that there are differences in the intelligences that exist, that some are more intelligent than others; and that God is “more intelligent than them all” (Book of Abraham, Chapt. 3)."

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Luke
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Luke »

ransomme wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:34 pm
Luke wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:25 pm
ransomme wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:16 pm Co-eternal but no coequal
Not according to Joseph
"The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal (3), a with God himself. I know that my testimony is true;" - (TPJS 353)

footnote (3) - "Undoubtedly the proper word here would be “co-eternal,” not “coequal.” This illustrates the imperfection of the report made of the sermon. For surely the mind of man is not co-equal with God except in the matter of its eternity. It is the direct statement in the Book of Abraham—accepted by the Church as scripture—that there are differences in the intelligences that exist, that some are more intelligent than others; and that God is “more intelligent than them all” (Book of Abraham, Chapt. 3)."
I think I’ll take Joseph’s words over some footnote by some guy who assumed he knew what Joseph meant lmao

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ransomme
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by ransomme »

Luke wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:35 pm
ransomme wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:34 pm
Luke wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:25 pm
ransomme wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:16 pm Co-eternal but no coequal
Not according to Joseph
"The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal (3), a with God himself. I know that my testimony is true;" - (TPJS 353)

footnote (3) - "Undoubtedly the proper word here would be “co-eternal,” not “coequal.” This illustrates the imperfection of the report made of the sermon. For surely the mind of man is not co-equal with God except in the matter of its eternity. It is the direct statement in the Book of Abraham—accepted by the Church as scripture—that there are differences in the intelligences that exist, that some are more intelligent than others; and that God is “more intelligent than them all” (Book of Abraham, Chapt. 3)."
I think I’ll take Joseph’s words over some footnote by some guy who assumed he knew what Joseph meant lmao
I trust Joseph too, just not the scribe. Oh and I trust the Lord as well, "19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am amore intelligent than they all." (Abr.3)

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Luke
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Luke »

ransomme wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:43 pm
Luke wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:35 pm
ransomme wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:34 pm
Luke wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:25 pm

Not according to Joseph
"The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal (3), a with God himself. I know that my testimony is true;" - (TPJS 353)

footnote (3) - "Undoubtedly the proper word here would be “co-eternal,” not “coequal.” This illustrates the imperfection of the report made of the sermon. For surely the mind of man is not co-equal with God except in the matter of its eternity. It is the direct statement in the Book of Abraham—accepted by the Church as scripture—that there are differences in the intelligences that exist, that some are more intelligent than others; and that God is “more intelligent than them all” (Book of Abraham, Chapt. 3)."
I think I’ll take Joseph’s words over some footnote by some guy who assumed he knew what Joseph meant lmao
I trust Joseph too, just not the scribe. Oh and I trust the Lord as well, "19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am amore intelligent than they all." (Abr.3)
How does this disprove the idea that our spirits are co-equal with God?

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ransomme
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by ransomme »

Luke wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:45 pm
ransomme wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:43 pm
Luke wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:35 pm
ransomme wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:34 pm

"The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal (3), a with God himself. I know that my testimony is true;" - (TPJS 353)

footnote (3) - "Undoubtedly the proper word here would be “co-eternal,” not “coequal.” This illustrates the imperfection of the report made of the sermon. For surely the mind of man is not co-equal with God except in the matter of its eternity. It is the direct statement in the Book of Abraham—accepted by the Church as scripture—that there are differences in the intelligences that exist, that some are more intelligent than others; and that God is “more intelligent than them all” (Book of Abraham, Chapt. 3)."
I think I’ll take Joseph’s words over some footnote by some guy who assumed he knew what Joseph meant lmao
I trust Joseph too, just not the scribe. Oh and I trust the Lord as well, "19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am amore intelligent than they all." (Abr.3)
How does this disprove the idea that our spirits are co-equal with God?
He has more intelligence, has more light, has more glory, greater dominion, etc., which means, God > us

NewEliza
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by NewEliza »

ransomme wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:16 pm
NewEliza wrote: April 5th, 2021, 9:03 am
ransomme wrote: April 5th, 2021, 7:33 am
NewEliza wrote: March 31st, 2021, 1:00 pm

Yeah I totally believe this.


But I also believe that all intelligences are exactly the same, there aren’t “human intelligences” and “animal intelligences ” so to me the eternal progression is more about learning how to be a good steward in your own sphere, over the body and life god gave you, and then moving to a higher challenge until you reach humanity. And then hopefully never having to ‘start over.’



(Braces self)
No need to brace yourself, but what about things having a "sphere of creation" and an "enjoyment of their eternal felicity" within that sphere?

D&C 77
2 Q. What are we to understand by the four beasts, spoken of in the same verse? A. They are figurative expressions, used by the Revelator, John, in describing heaven, the paradise of God, the happiness of man, and of beasts, and of creeping things, and of the fowls of the air; that which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual; the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created.

3 Q. Are the four beasts limited to individual beasts, or do they represent classes or orders? A. They are limited to four individual beasts, which were shown to John, to represent the glory of the classes of beings in their destined border or sphere of creation, in the enjoyment of their eternal felicity.
That’s great but that doesn’t mean those intelligences stay within the bodies of that sphere forever.

Unles you believe that some intelligences are different than others somehow.
Well there is Abraham 3,
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.


Co-eternal but no coequal
Intelligence is just intelligence. Life is just life It is all the same and comes from a big pool of pure intelligence. It progresses individually of course and some are more progressed than others. But they all move forward or backward

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Silver Pie
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Silver Pie »

So, maybe co-equal doesn't mean the same thing as one being smarter than another? Perhaps it means equality - you know, being equal in things that matter (the opposite of iniquity, someone said once or twice. Iniquity = in-equity = unequal. I don't know how true that is, though).
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Philipians 2:6
The scriptures around it seem to indicate to me that Jesus being equal to God may not mean the same thing as us being equal to God, so maybe it was a scribal error (or Joseph said it, but didn't use the word right):
3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

RoseofSharon
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by RoseofSharon »

JK4Woods wrote: March 31st, 2021, 10:50 am Not sure the title is really what I'm getting at. But lately I've been thinking of us mortal parents, and how it hurts, (and makes us feel guilty) when one of our kids goes astray and wanders off the strait & narrow.

The whole idea of Heavenly Father & Mother(s?) watching clearly more than 3/4 of all their progeny to not make it home is causing some wonderment within me.

I get that the whole idea of the mortal probation is to stratify the obedient, disciplined (and righteously) stubborn in the keeping the Lord's commandments, and living the two great laws, at the top of the heap.

And that the most wayward, and those who hearken unto brother lucifer are going to be cast out (disowned?) into outer darkness. Apparently cut off from further love, concern and interaction with Heavenly Parents.

Seems like a fairly harsh plan. Emotionally, how does Heavenly Father & Mother handle it?

Or is it sort of like down here where a higher life form, judges and assigns destiny to a lower life form? IE: man grading cattle, some of which go to pasture to breed more perfect specimens, and others which get sent to the meat packing plant to serve another purpose in the scheme of things.
Are our Heavenly Parents emotionally disconnected from the personal feelings the cattle (us) experience?

Or is it like a General who sends troops into harms way, and aside from the heavy losses, those who return are lauded and awarded medals for bravery and diligence?
(While those who were lost in the battle are only remembered occasionally down at the pub over a pint)?

I guess my question is pointless because from the limited perspective of my mortal (pea-sized) brain, I just won't know the full answers, until we get to the other side.
The whole drama has to play out to the end, and I have got to keep the faith that everyone will feel it a fair outcome for the eternities. (If Fairness is even a celestial, eternal criteria...).

What if some of those cast out (banished) to outer darkness, had been my best friends in the pre-existence? Will I never get to see them again?
How bound are we emotionally to one another in the eternal sense? Or is it everyman for himself? Will the winners be at the top, and we mediocre performers are lumped together some where else?

Maybe I'm stumbling over nonsense...
You will not know the full answers when you "get to the other side". You will know the full answers when you remember your premortal life.
And emotional ties are a thing of this world, as emotions are based in the flesh, including emotional bonds. Only spiritual bonds last, and they are based on Godly principles and covenants. My husband and I have a strong bond. We know for a fact that my husband chose me to be his wife in the premortal life for some serious, not frivolous, reasons. But our bond is spiritual, not emotional.

Never EVER feel pity for those who were cast out with Lucifer. Have you ever met one of these spirits? I have. Quite often. I lived with a good number of them for several years, and living with a Poltergeist has got to be the worse abuse a child can go through. I knew someone at work who started feeling pity and sorrow for these spirits once, and spoke as you do, wondering if any were her personal friends? Did she miss them? Was their punishment too harsh? Doesn't casting them into Outer Darkness seem to final and awful? Isn't there any chance for them? And in the background she wondered "what if I fail, too?" I tried to tell her this kind of thinking was spiritually dangerous, and to quit NOW because doing so would bring a very bad spirit (or two) into her life.

She didn't listen to me until it was too late. And you don't want to know what happened to her. Not if you want to sleep tonight, that is.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Shawn Henry »

abijah` wrote: March 31st, 2021, 12:47 pm maybe that's why animals don't have the sentient agency mankind does.
How so? Can't dogs choose to hump any fire hydrant they want?

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Shawn Henry »

NewEliza wrote: March 31st, 2021, 1:00 pm But I also believe that all intelligences are exactly the same, there aren’t “human intelligences” and “animal intelligences ” so to me the eternal progression is more about learning how to be a good steward in your own sphere, over the body and life god gave you, and then moving to a higher challenge until you reach humanity. And then hopefully never having to ‘start over.’
Holy Crap! You mean I've finally found someone who shares this belief with me.

That's how I read the hierarchy of intelligences in the Pearl of Great Price, all intelligences at varying levels of intelligence. No indication of species or even gender.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Shawn Henry »

JK4Woods wrote: March 31st, 2021, 1:11 pm So are the tiny bit of intelligences that are part of a molecule of granite, ever going to rise up out of inanimate objects into some kind of life form... like become an amoeba or even higher, a frog?
I would say yes to this as well.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Shawn Henry »

Robin Hood wrote: March 31st, 2021, 11:23 am The elements of spirit will be broken down and become unilluminated matter. The intelligence will be recycled, but all traces of the person who was cast into outer darkness as a SoP will be gone.
I'm trying to imagine what that means, all traces of the person will be gone.

Intelligence can't be created or destroyed, so how much can be taken from it? Is memory permanently part of an intelligence? I would think so. Is its freedom of mobility or does that only come once it has a spirit body?

If they are sent back into unorganized space, can they then organize some of the unorganized matter there if they have the knowledge to do so?

I guess I've always had these questions.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Shawn Henry »

Robin Hood wrote: March 31st, 2021, 11:08 am :D
Any thoughts on my above post?

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Shawn Henry »

ransomme wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:16 pm Well there is Abraham 3,
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.


Co-eternal but no coequal
Are you saying that intelligences are locked permanently in their spheres? I read those scriptures with God being above them all as meaning that there is a continuum or a ladder that we can all move up, that no intelligence ever reaches a limit to its intelligence. Of course, God will always be ahead of us, but wherever he is, is somewhere we can be at a future point, if we choose to.

I think an intelligence would have to be externally suppressed in order to halt its progression.

Perhaps coequal is like a 10th grader being ahead of a 5th grader. The older student has the ability to always stay ahead of the other student and the younger student is ever following the course of the older student. Both are equally students, but one started first and will therefore always be ahead.

I don't know, how does that sound to you?

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Robin Hood
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Robin Hood »

Shawn Henry wrote: January 11th, 2023, 12:19 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 31st, 2021, 11:08 am :D
Any thoughts on my above post?
I think many people get muddled up regarding spirit and intelligence. A spirit is individual, can communicate, can make decisions, and is self aware. Whether that spirit is a human or a hamster.
None of this describes an intelligence in it's pure form. Intelligence is the raw material from which a spirit is created.
This is why a spirit can be dissolved back to it's elemental intelligence and retain nothing of it's previous spiritual/physical identity.

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Shawn Henry
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Shawn Henry »

Robin Hood wrote: January 11th, 2023, 1:17 pm I think many people get muddled up regarding spirit and intelligence. A spirit is individual, can communicate, can make decisions, and is self aware. Whether that spirit is a human or a hamster.
None of this describes an intelligence in it's pure form. Intelligence is the raw material from which a spirit is created.
This is why a spirit can be dissolved back to it's elemental intelligence and retain nothing of it's previous spiritual/physical identity.
This makes it sound like intelligence is a soup ingredient. So, you don't interpret the Abrahamic pool of intelligences as actual separate individuals? Could you and I, back when we were only intelligences, communicate with each other?

It can't be created nor destroyed, but you are of the opinion that it can be reformed, correct? My understanding was always that the intelligence was the uniqueness of the individual, the one thing that was always you.

Considering BY's inspirational track record, I can't let his thoughts deviate me from what the scriptures say. Is it fair to say that external interpretations influence your scriptural understanding?

Of course, we are already possibly putting too much stock into the Book of Abraham, considering Joseph never canonized it and the Lord commanded that nothing of the New Translation go forth until it was all complete.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Robin Hood »

Shawn Henry wrote: January 11th, 2023, 1:39 pm
Robin Hood wrote: January 11th, 2023, 1:17 pm I think many people get muddled up regarding spirit and intelligence. A spirit is individual, can communicate, can make decisions, and is self aware. Whether that spirit is a human or a hamster.
None of this describes an intelligence in it's pure form. Intelligence is the raw material from which a spirit is created.
This is why a spirit can be dissolved back to it's elemental intelligence and retain nothing of it's previous spiritual/physical identity.
This makes it sound like intelligence is a soup ingredient. So, you don't interpret the Abrahamic pool of intelligences as actual separate individuals? Could you and I, back when we were only intelligences, communicate with each other?

It can't be created nor destroyed, but you are of the opinion that it can be reformed, correct? My understanding was always that the intelligence was the uniqueness of the individual, the one thing that was always you.

Considering BY's inspirational track record, I can't let his thoughts deviate me from what the scriptures say. Is it fair to say that external interpretations influence your scriptural understanding?

Of course, we are already possibly putting too much stock into the Book of Abraham, considering Joseph never canonized it and the Lord commanded that nothing of the New Translation go forth until it was all complete.
I arrived at my view by logic.
I didn't get it from anywhere else.

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ransomme
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by ransomme »

Shawn Henry wrote: January 11th, 2023, 12:32 pm
ransomme wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:16 pm Well there is Abraham 3,
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.


Co-eternal but no coequal
Are you saying that intelligences are locked permanently in their spheres? I read those scriptures with God being above them all as meaning that there is a continuum or a ladder that we can all move up, that no intelligence ever reaches a limit to its intelligence. Of course, God will always be ahead of us, but wherever he is, is somewhere we can be at a future point, if we choose to.

I think an intelligence would have to be externally suppressed in order to halt its progression.

Perhaps coequal is like a 10th grader being ahead of a 5th grader. The older student has the ability to always stay ahead of the other student and the younger student is ever following the course of the older student. Both are equally students, but one started first and will therefore always be ahead.

I don't know, how does that sound to you?
I see what you are saying, but let me see if I can't convey what I am saying more clearly.

We as intelligences have eternally existed just as God is eternal. God being further progressed loved us, clothed us in spirit, gave us mortal experience, and will clothe us in glorified bodies.

So we are not co-equal in the hierarchy because He will always be our God. He will always be further along in progression than us. Not co-equal in that He will always have greater glory and authority than us.

But I'll add that God's capacity to love, without ego, does make us equal in a way. We can commune with God and have oneness with Him. He can treat us as co-heirs with Christ, co-heirs in everything He has. So perhaps both are true. Co-equal in treatment and kind yet not co-equal in maturity, ability, or accomplishment.

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Original_Intent
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Original_Intent »

NewEliza wrote: March 31st, 2021, 9:41 pm
JK4Woods wrote: March 31st, 2021, 1:11 pm
abijah` wrote: March 31st, 2021, 12:47 pm
JK4Woods wrote: March 31st, 2021, 11:39 am What..?!? We get recycled..?!? Sentient beings, or those who refuse to climb?
I had a dream (don't think it was inspired or anything) where I woke up thinking that maybe animals are just the portions of those spirits that could still be used and divided up from the evil/corrupted/unredeemable will of those spirits, and maybe that's why animals don't have the sentient agency mankind does. Because that portion (the will / agency) was consigned to outer darkness, and the rest was "saved" in the sense God could still use that part of the intelligence to make a creature that was good and glorifiable.

Just a waking thought I had once though.
So are the tiny bit of intelligences that are part of a molecule of granite, ever going to rise up out of inanimate objects into some kind of life form... like become an amoeba or even higher, a frog?
I would say yes
The Law of One (which isn't my end-all be-all belief system) does handle this pretty elegantly I think.

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Original_Intent
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by Original_Intent »

Robin Hood wrote: January 11th, 2023, 2:09 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: January 11th, 2023, 1:39 pm
Robin Hood wrote: January 11th, 2023, 1:17 pm I think many people get muddled up regarding spirit and intelligence. A spirit is individual, can communicate, can make decisions, and is self aware. Whether that spirit is a human or a hamster.
None of this describes an intelligence in it's pure form. Intelligence is the raw material from which a spirit is created.
This is why a spirit can be dissolved back to it's elemental intelligence and retain nothing of it's previous spiritual/physical identity.
This makes it sound like intelligence is a soup ingredient. So, you don't interpret the Abrahamic pool of intelligences as actual separate individuals? Could you and I, back when we were only intelligences, communicate with each other?

It can't be created nor destroyed, but you are of the opinion that it can be reformed, correct? My understanding was always that the intelligence was the uniqueness of the individual, the one thing that was always you.

Considering BY's inspirational track record, I can't let his thoughts deviate me from what the scriptures say. Is it fair to say that external interpretations influence your scriptural understanding?

Of course, we are already possibly putting too much stock into the Book of Abraham, considering Joseph never canonized it and the Lord commanded that nothing of the New Translation go forth until it was all complete.
I arrived at my view by logic.
I didn't get it from anywhere else.
Well, even with logic, your premises all have to be correct and your conclusion must also be correct - which I am fairly certain yours aren't. Intelligence is not an ingredient to form spirits from - intelligence is the very essence of identity.

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nightlight
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by nightlight »

NewEliza wrote: March 31st, 2021, 12:58 pm
Luke wrote: March 31st, 2021, 12:17 pm
JK4Woods wrote: March 31st, 2021, 11:39 am
Luke wrote: March 31st, 2021, 11:31 am

Yes I agree. I probably should have explained myself better
What..?!? We get recycled..?!? Sentient beings, or those who refuse to climb?
Those who choose Outer Darkness, yes

Everyone else, no
That’s the part that I’m not sure about. If you aren’t moving up, you’re moving down.

I don’t think that those who earn the terrestrial/telestial glory get utterly stripped of their identity and turned back into matter or plain intelligence, but it seems like they probably do lose a little bit of something.

If you have to go down to another mortality and kind of try again, then you aren’t really “building” on your past experience, you’re just getting another chance to try again.

(Which I realize can then turn into progression.)

I dunno
Where the heck did you go?

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JK4Woods
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??

Post by JK4Woods »

Robin Hood wrote: March 31st, 2021, 11:23 am
Luke wrote: March 31st, 2021, 11:16 am
Robin Hood wrote: March 31st, 2021, 11:08 am
Luke wrote: March 31st, 2021, 11:01 am It’s called Eternal Progression because it lasts forever

There is progression between kingdoms and I would add there is progression from Outer Darkness as well
You're half right.
I’m guessing this is over the Outer Darkness thing

Brigham said that those who went to Outer Darkness would be “thrown back into the native element and reworked over, so as to be prepared to enjoy some sort of kingdom” (paraphrase)

In essence, those consigned to Outer Darkness would just be sent back to square 1

I don’t believe God ceases to be a God of forgiveness
He did say that, but it isn't what you appear to think. The elements of spirit will be broken down and become unilluminated matter. The intelligence will be recycled, but all traces of the person who was cast into outer darkness as a SoP will be gone.

Is the dust of the moon, the remains of those who were sent back to start again on square one..??

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