Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
- JK4Woods
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Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
Not sure the title is really what I'm getting at. But lately I've been thinking of us mortal parents, and how it hurts, (and makes us feel guilty) when one of our kids goes astray and wanders off the strait & narrow.
The whole idea of Heavenly Father & Mother(s?) watching clearly more than 3/4 of all their progeny to not make it home is causing some wonderment within me.
I get that the whole idea of the mortal probation is to stratify the obedient, disciplined (and righteously) stubborn in the keeping the Lord's commandments, and living the two great laws, at the top of the heap.
And that the most wayward, and those who hearken unto brother lucifer are going to be cast out (disowned?) into outer darkness. Apparently cut off from further love, concern and interaction with Heavenly Parents.
Seems like a fairly harsh plan. Emotionally, how does Heavenly Father & Mother handle it?
Or is it sort of like down here where a higher life form, judges and assigns destiny to a lower life form? IE: man grading cattle, some of which go to pasture to breed more perfect specimens, and others which get sent to the meat packing plant to serve another purpose in the scheme of things.
Are our Heavenly Parents emotionally disconnected from the personal feelings the cattle (us) experience?
Or is it like a General who sends troops into harms way, and aside from the heavy losses, those who return are lauded and awarded medals for bravery and diligence?
(While those who were lost in the battle are only remembered occasionally down at the pub over a pint)?
I guess my question is pointless because from the limited perspective of my mortal (pea-sized) brain, I just won't know the full answers, until we get to the other side.
The whole drama has to play out to the end, and I have got to keep the faith that everyone will feel it a fair outcome for the eternities. (If Fairness is even a celestial, eternal criteria...).
What if some of those cast out (banished) to outer darkness, had been my best friends in the pre-existence? Will I never get to see them again?
How bound are we emotionally to one another in the eternal sense? Or is it everyman for himself? Will the winners be at the top, and we mediocre performers are lumped together some where else?
Maybe I'm stumbling over nonsense...
The whole idea of Heavenly Father & Mother(s?) watching clearly more than 3/4 of all their progeny to not make it home is causing some wonderment within me.
I get that the whole idea of the mortal probation is to stratify the obedient, disciplined (and righteously) stubborn in the keeping the Lord's commandments, and living the two great laws, at the top of the heap.
And that the most wayward, and those who hearken unto brother lucifer are going to be cast out (disowned?) into outer darkness. Apparently cut off from further love, concern and interaction with Heavenly Parents.
Seems like a fairly harsh plan. Emotionally, how does Heavenly Father & Mother handle it?
Or is it sort of like down here where a higher life form, judges and assigns destiny to a lower life form? IE: man grading cattle, some of which go to pasture to breed more perfect specimens, and others which get sent to the meat packing plant to serve another purpose in the scheme of things.
Are our Heavenly Parents emotionally disconnected from the personal feelings the cattle (us) experience?
Or is it like a General who sends troops into harms way, and aside from the heavy losses, those who return are lauded and awarded medals for bravery and diligence?
(While those who were lost in the battle are only remembered occasionally down at the pub over a pint)?
I guess my question is pointless because from the limited perspective of my mortal (pea-sized) brain, I just won't know the full answers, until we get to the other side.
The whole drama has to play out to the end, and I have got to keep the faith that everyone will feel it a fair outcome for the eternities. (If Fairness is even a celestial, eternal criteria...).
What if some of those cast out (banished) to outer darkness, had been my best friends in the pre-existence? Will I never get to see them again?
How bound are we emotionally to one another in the eternal sense? Or is it everyman for himself? Will the winners be at the top, and we mediocre performers are lumped together some where else?
Maybe I'm stumbling over nonsense...
- Luke
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
It’s called Eternal Progression because it lasts forever
There is progression between kingdoms and I would add there is progression from Outer Darkness as well
There is progression between kingdoms and I would add there is progression from Outer Darkness as well
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- JK4Woods
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
Thank you Luke..!
I have been struggling with dogma saying our choice is now and what we decide now will affect our destination forever.
(I don't like endlessly repeated dogma which builds walls around faith and is difficult to peer over these walls to a bigger picture).
- Luke
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
I’m guessing this is over the Outer Darkness thing
Brigham said that those who went to Outer Darkness would be “thrown back into the native element and reworked over, so as to be prepared to enjoy some sort of kingdom” (paraphrase)
In essence, those consigned to Outer Darkness would just be sent back to square 1
I don’t believe God ceases to be a God of forgiveness
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
He did say that, but it isn't what you appear to think. The elements of spirit will be broken down and become unilluminated matter. The intelligence will be recycled, but all traces of the person who was cast into outer darkness as a SoP will be gone.Luke wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 11:16 amI’m guessing this is over the Outer Darkness thing
Brigham said that those who went to Outer Darkness would be “thrown back into the native element and reworked over, so as to be prepared to enjoy some sort of kingdom” (paraphrase)
In essence, those consigned to Outer Darkness would just be sent back to square 1
I don’t believe God ceases to be a God of forgiveness
- Luke
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
Yes I agree. I probably should have explained myself betterRobin Hood wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 11:23 amHe did say that, but it isn't what you appear to think. The elements of spirit will be broken down and become unilluminated matter. The intelligence will be recycled, but all traces of the person who was cast into outer darkness as a SoP will be gone.Luke wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 11:16 amI’m guessing this is over the Outer Darkness thing
Brigham said that those who went to Outer Darkness would be “thrown back into the native element and reworked over, so as to be prepared to enjoy some sort of kingdom” (paraphrase)
In essence, those consigned to Outer Darkness would just be sent back to square 1
I don’t believe God ceases to be a God of forgiveness
- JK4Woods
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
What..?!? We get recycled..?!? Sentient beings, or those who refuse to climb?Luke wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 11:31 amYes I agree. I probably should have explained myself betterRobin Hood wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 11:23 amHe did say that, but it isn't what you appear to think. The elements of spirit will be broken down and become unilluminated matter. The intelligence will be recycled, but all traces of the person who was cast into outer darkness as a SoP will be gone.Luke wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 11:16 amI’m guessing this is over the Outer Darkness thing
Brigham said that those who went to Outer Darkness would be “thrown back into the native element and reworked over, so as to be prepared to enjoy some sort of kingdom” (paraphrase)
In essence, those consigned to Outer Darkness would just be sent back to square 1
I don’t believe God ceases to be a God of forgiveness
- Luke
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
Those who choose Outer Darkness, yesJK4Woods wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 11:39 amWhat..?!? We get recycled..?!? Sentient beings, or those who refuse to climb?Luke wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 11:31 amYes I agree. I probably should have explained myself betterRobin Hood wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 11:23 amHe did say that, but it isn't what you appear to think. The elements of spirit will be broken down and become unilluminated matter. The intelligence will be recycled, but all traces of the person who was cast into outer darkness as a SoP will be gone.Luke wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 11:16 am
I’m guessing this is over the Outer Darkness thing
Brigham said that those who went to Outer Darkness would be “thrown back into the native element and reworked over, so as to be prepared to enjoy some sort of kingdom” (paraphrase)
In essence, those consigned to Outer Darkness would just be sent back to square 1
I don’t believe God ceases to be a God of forgiveness
Everyone else, no
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
Now that was just BY's opinion and he admitted that. I have read the JD and so I know. He also said that if he didn't write something down, sign it and send it out to every stake and ward, it wasn't officially binding on the church as doctrine. Over the pulpit at conference didn't necessarily count in this manner.
It is an interesting idea though. And it goes along with how God doesn't waste anything. That's in nature. In nature everything keeps coming back in a recycled fashion all clean and fresh, no energy is lost, everything is always still here some how even if in another form. Think of the water cycle.
And one could actually call damned spirits "failed' spirits who are being wasted in outer darkness. BY used the potter analogy on this one. The potter just "destroys" a failed vessle and then remakes it into a new one. And Satan is called "the destroyer".
I don't think this is hopeful, merciful or otherwise nice. The intelligence has failed, and it is destroyed which sounds absolutely terrible beyond my ability to imagine. This is not a means of salvation as much as a means of turning something useless into something useful.
It is an interesting idea though. And it goes along with how God doesn't waste anything. That's in nature. In nature everything keeps coming back in a recycled fashion all clean and fresh, no energy is lost, everything is always still here some how even if in another form. Think of the water cycle.
And one could actually call damned spirits "failed' spirits who are being wasted in outer darkness. BY used the potter analogy on this one. The potter just "destroys" a failed vessle and then remakes it into a new one. And Satan is called "the destroyer".
I don't think this is hopeful, merciful or otherwise nice. The intelligence has failed, and it is destroyed which sounds absolutely terrible beyond my ability to imagine. This is not a means of salvation as much as a means of turning something useless into something useful.
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
I had a dream (don't think it was inspired or anything) where I woke up thinking that maybe animals are just the portions of those spirits that could still be used and divided up from the evil/corrupted/unredeemable will of those spirits, and maybe that's why animals don't have the sentient agency mankind does. Because that portion (the will / agency) was consigned to outer darkness, and the rest was "saved" in the sense God could still use that part of the intelligence to make a creature that was good and glorifiable.
Just a waking thought I had once though.
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
That’s the part that I’m not sure about. If you aren’t moving up, you’re moving down.Luke wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 12:17 pmThose who choose Outer Darkness, yesJK4Woods wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 11:39 amWhat..?!? We get recycled..?!? Sentient beings, or those who refuse to climb?Luke wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 11:31 amYes I agree. I probably should have explained myself betterRobin Hood wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 11:23 am
He did say that, but it isn't what you appear to think. The elements of spirit will be broken down and become unilluminated matter. The intelligence will be recycled, but all traces of the person who was cast into outer darkness as a SoP will be gone.
Everyone else, no
I don’t think that those who earn the terrestrial/telestial glory get utterly stripped of their identity and turned back into matter or plain intelligence, but it seems like they probably do lose a little bit of something.
If you have to go down to another mortality and kind of try again, then you aren’t really “building” on your past experience, you’re just getting another chance to try again.
(Which I realize can then turn into progression.)
I dunno
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
Yeah I totally believe this.abijah` wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 12:47 pmI had a dream (don't think it was inspired or anything) where I woke up thinking that maybe animals are just the portions of those spirits that could still be used and divided up from the evil/corrupted/unredeemable will of those spirits, and maybe that's why animals don't have the sentient agency mankind does. Because that portion (the will / agency) was consigned to outer darkness, and the rest was "saved" in the sense God could still use that part of the intelligence to make a creature that was good and glorifiable.
Just a waking thought I had once though.
But I also believe that all intelligences are exactly the same, there aren’t “human intelligences” and “animal intelligences ” so to me the eternal progression is more about learning how to be a good steward in your own sphere, over the body and life god gave you, and then moving to a higher challenge until you reach humanity. And then hopefully never having to ‘start over.’
(Braces self)
- JK4Woods
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
Humm.... Kinda like having "glory added upon" those who manage to get to the Celestial Kingdom...??NewEliza wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 12:58 pmThat’s the part that I’m not sure about. If you aren’t moving up, you’re moving down.
I don’t think that those who earn the terrestrial/telestial glory get utterly stripped of their identity and turned back into matter or plain intelligence, but it seems like they probably do lose a little bit of something.
If you have to go down to another mortality and kind of try again, then you aren’t really “building” on your past experience, you’re just getting another chance to try again.
(Which I realize can then turn into progression.)
I dunno
Like the parable of the talents, the servant who did best, got the talents of the crappy servant..??
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
So are the tiny bit of intelligences that are part of a molecule of granite, ever going to rise up out of inanimate objects into some kind of life form... like become an amoeba or even higher, a frog?abijah` wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 12:47 pmI had a dream (don't think it was inspired or anything) where I woke up thinking that maybe animals are just the portions of those spirits that could still be used and divided up from the evil/corrupted/unredeemable will of those spirits, and maybe that's why animals don't have the sentient agency mankind does. Because that portion (the will / agency) was consigned to outer darkness, and the rest was "saved" in the sense God could still use that part of the intelligence to make a creature that was good and glorifiable.
Just a waking thought I had once though.
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
...SoP... not sure I know what this means... Spirit of Personnage..? oh!! Son of perdition..!! Got-it!Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 11:23 amHe did say that, but it isn't what you appear to think. The elements of spirit will be broken down and become unilluminated matter. The intelligence will be recycled, but all traces of the person who was cast into outer darkness as a SoP will be gone.Luke wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 11:16 amI’m guessing this is over the Outer Darkness thing
Brigham said that those who went to Outer Darkness would be “thrown back into the native element and reworked over, so as to be prepared to enjoy some sort of kingdom” (paraphrase)
In essence, those consigned to Outer Darkness would just be sent back to square 1
I don’t believe God ceases to be a God of forgiveness
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
Well I was thinking of this in a certain way. Why is jesus so happy right now when theres so many suffering in earth? Isnt that unfair? Were miserable down here compared to him. but, that's kindof like being mad at having a house or a roof over your head while someone else doesnt.
Isnt it if there are poor the whole world liveth in sin? Gods goal is to get everyone on a good level.
God does want people to succeed. Or he wouldn't help so much.
Now how they handle their emotions is beyond me, they're Gods. Gods emotions are the brightest most pure most beautiful and strongest feelings you'll ever feel. I believe they have their emotions in check and love people where they're at.
I know for a fact the majority of people in life dont make it back to the presence of jesus. And when I say the majority, I mean an infinite amount can and will be lost. But that is THEIR decision to go against the light presented to them. There will be a little bit of people compared to the majority that will make it. These people followed the spirit, followed that light inside, childlike and followed jesus, they were obedient. (From a dream I saw jesus in) its hard knowing someone you love will not be making it in this life to jesus. I had someone I know in the dream and they didnt make it. It at first really hurt and made me cry, I dont know what to do with it. It's almost like laman and lemuel when they wouldn't partake of the fruit. I have to be like lehi and tell her what's going to happen if shes not valiant. So I think for a God it could be a bit hard to deal with.
But it's so worth it in the end to be with jesus. His joy is beyond comprehension.
I feel God has time to cry over each soul he lost.
When in heaven safety is important, cant have abusers around good hearted people. Bad kids stay in the corner until they can be good, I guess.
Isnt it if there are poor the whole world liveth in sin? Gods goal is to get everyone on a good level.
God does want people to succeed. Or he wouldn't help so much.
Now how they handle their emotions is beyond me, they're Gods. Gods emotions are the brightest most pure most beautiful and strongest feelings you'll ever feel. I believe they have their emotions in check and love people where they're at.
I know for a fact the majority of people in life dont make it back to the presence of jesus. And when I say the majority, I mean an infinite amount can and will be lost. But that is THEIR decision to go against the light presented to them. There will be a little bit of people compared to the majority that will make it. These people followed the spirit, followed that light inside, childlike and followed jesus, they were obedient. (From a dream I saw jesus in) its hard knowing someone you love will not be making it in this life to jesus. I had someone I know in the dream and they didnt make it. It at first really hurt and made me cry, I dont know what to do with it. It's almost like laman and lemuel when they wouldn't partake of the fruit. I have to be like lehi and tell her what's going to happen if shes not valiant. So I think for a God it could be a bit hard to deal with.
But it's so worth it in the end to be with jesus. His joy is beyond comprehension.
I feel God has time to cry over each soul he lost.
When in heaven safety is important, cant have abusers around good hearted people. Bad kids stay in the corner until they can be good, I guess.
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
I would say yesJK4Woods wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 1:11 pmSo are the tiny bit of intelligences that are part of a molecule of granite, ever going to rise up out of inanimate objects into some kind of life form... like become an amoeba or even higher, a frog?abijah` wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 12:47 pmI had a dream (don't think it was inspired or anything) where I woke up thinking that maybe animals are just the portions of those spirits that could still be used and divided up from the evil/corrupted/unredeemable will of those spirits, and maybe that's why animals don't have the sentient agency mankind does. Because that portion (the will / agency) was consigned to outer darkness, and the rest was "saved" in the sense God could still use that part of the intelligence to make a creature that was good and glorifiable.
Just a waking thought I had once though.
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
Those are good questions! Especially, “How bound are we emotionally to one another”? Makes me wonder. A friend who had a NDE said we have family that is much more eternal than earthly family.JK4Woods wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 10:50 am...What if some of those cast out (banished) to outer darkness, had been my best friends in the pre-existence? Will I never get to see them again?
How bound are we emotionally to one another in the eternal sense? Or is it everyman for himself? Will the winners be at the top, and we mediocre performers are lumped together some where else?
Based on “as above so below” - it seems that the more we can empathize, the more we can emotionally visit in the next life. After death/separation of physical, it’s not about space or even time - but about relating. I believe even a temple sealing has no power if the actual relat-ionship involved little relating. Hell is not being able to relate/visit others. This suggests the need to follow Jesus even in “descending below” but rise again - to empathize with various ways of thinking/feeling.
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
It's kinda finally clicked in my head(I know, I can't believe it took 40+ years either ) but it finally clicked that any and all of the 'ordinances' have to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise to have validity when we reclaim our corrupted bodies.Thinker wrote: ↑April 4th, 2021, 9:16 amThose are good questions! Especially, “How bound are we emotionally to one another”? Makes me wonder. A friend who had a NDE said we have family that is much more eternal than earthly family.JK4Woods wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 10:50 am...What if some of those cast out (banished) to outer darkness, had been my best friends in the pre-existence? Will I never get to see them again?
How bound are we emotionally to one another in the eternal sense? Or is it everyman for himself? Will the winners be at the top, and we mediocre performers are lumped together some where else?
Based on “as above so below” - it seems that the more we can empathize, the more we can emotionally visit in the next life. After death/separation of physical, it’s not about space or even time - but about relating. I believe even a temple sealing has no power if the actual relat-ionship involved little relating. Hell is not being able to relate/visit others. This suggests the need to follow Jesus even in “descending below” but rise again - to empathize with various ways of thinking/feeling.
Makes so much more sense for me for some reason. The ritual of the ordinance seems given to us out of mercy because as 'flawed man' we kinda need or want something to see, or to do, to be able to put our faith into. It's wild.
We must BELIEVE!!! Im starting to see how hard it is to have real faith.... IT'S WAY HARD!! but at same time starting to see how powerful it truly is!
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
Brings to mind this JS quote:
- "A fanciful and flowery an heated imagination beware of; because the things of God are of deep import; and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out. Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity--thou must commune with God." (Joseph Smith, TPJS 137, 25 March 1839)
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
So true, CruiserDude!Cruiserdude wrote: ↑April 4th, 2021, 9:35 am...we kinda need or want something to see, or to do, to be able to put our faith into. It's wild.
We must BELIEVE!!! Im starting to see how hard it is to have real faith.... IT'S WAY HARD!! but at same time starting to see how powerful it truly is!
Life’s purpose may be to isolate us from pure knowing, to exercise faith muscles.
Belief is powerful - primarily as placebo/nocebo effects on our bodies. Belief also affects things outside us.
Spoiler
For those interested:
Light: (1 & 2 in double split experiment where they acted differently based on observation)
1. Particle
2. Wave-form
3. Electromagnetic frequency
4. Photon
(Some say double split doesn’t suggest consciousness related but “delayed choice experiment” does: - consciousness transcends time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler%2 ... experiment
Light: (1 & 2 in double split experiment where they acted differently based on observation)
1. Particle
2. Wave-form
3. Electromagnetic frequency
4. Photon
(Some say double split doesn’t suggest consciousness related but “delayed choice experiment” does: - consciousness transcends time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler%2 ... experiment
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
Amazing quote! Thank you, Luke.Luke wrote: ↑April 4th, 2021, 11:08 amBrings to mind this JS quote:
- "A fanciful and flowery an heated imagination beware of; because the things of God are of deep import; and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out. Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity--thou must commune with God." (Joseph Smith, TPJS 137, 25 March 1839)
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
No need to brace yourself, but what about things having a "sphere of creation" and an "enjoyment of their eternal felicity" within that sphere?NewEliza wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 1:00 pmYeah I totally believe this.abijah` wrote: ↑March 31st, 2021, 12:47 pmI had a dream (don't think it was inspired or anything) where I woke up thinking that maybe animals are just the portions of those spirits that could still be used and divided up from the evil/corrupted/unredeemable will of those spirits, and maybe that's why animals don't have the sentient agency mankind does. Because that portion (the will / agency) was consigned to outer darkness, and the rest was "saved" in the sense God could still use that part of the intelligence to make a creature that was good and glorifiable.
Just a waking thought I had once though.
But I also believe that all intelligences are exactly the same, there aren’t “human intelligences” and “animal intelligences ” so to me the eternal progression is more about learning how to be a good steward in your own sphere, over the body and life god gave you, and then moving to a higher challenge until you reach humanity. And then hopefully never having to ‘start over.’
(Braces self)
D&C 77
2 Q. What are we to understand by the four beasts, spoken of in the same verse? A. They are figurative expressions, used by the Revelator, John, in describing heaven, the paradise of God, the happiness of man, and of beasts, and of creeping things, and of the fowls of the air; that which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual; the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created.
3 Q. Are the four beasts limited to individual beasts, or do they represent classes or orders? A. They are limited to four individual beasts, which were shown to John, to represent the glory of the classes of beings in their destined border or sphere of creation, in the enjoyment of their eternal felicity.
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Re: Crappy (Heavenly) Parents..??
Fairness exists eternally, it is called Justice. What you sow you will reap. The only way to ameliorate Justice is with Mercy. But Mercy is not indiscriminately doled out, one must qualify for it.
But that's not how most people use the word "fairness"
But that's not how most people use the word "fairness"