5 hours with Enzio Buche

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IcedKoffee
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by IcedKoffee »

Is there anyone who can help me delete this thread?

larsenb
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by larsenb »

IcedKoffee wrote: March 27th, 2021, 3:37 pm Is there anyone who can help me delete this thread?
Before this happens (if it does), care to share what your belief/faith is regarding the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's story and claims? That would be helpful and illuminating, in terms of where you are coming from.

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Robin Hood
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by Robin Hood »

IcedKoffee wrote: March 27th, 2021, 1:14 pm
Matthias wrote: March 27th, 2021, 12:44 pm
IcedKoffee wrote: March 27th, 2021, 12:24 pm
Matthias wrote: March 27th, 2021, 12:15 pm Whether not this interview took place and whether or not Buche said what he is alleged to have said in this interview, is really irrelevant.

It's hearsay, and nothing more.

Monson being a pedophile is a completely unsubstantiated accusation. Where's the evidence? Who are the victims?

The brethren all "know the church isn't true and that Joseph Smith was a fraud?" Yeah right!

These men who have dedicated their entire lives to the church "know it's all a sham?" I don't believe it for a second.

This doesn't mean all is well in Zion, it clearly isn't. But either Buche was full of it, or those who claimed to have interviewed him are.
All I can tell you is that everything I revealed came directly from Buche. This wasn’t shared as a means to be the smoking gun that will finally bring down the church. It was meant to be another piece of the puzzle for people who know things aren’t quite right amongst the brethren.
It doesn't matter what your motivations are or even what Buche did or didn't say. None of it has been substantiated.

And since you claim that you believe the brethren are false prophets, then it would appear that you are sharing this story as a smoking gun and not just as "another piece of the puzzle for people to know things aren’t quite right amongst the brethren."

It's clear you have an ax to grind. Which is your right, just own it.

Do you agree with Buche that Joseph Smith was a fraud?
So your saying that an account from an emeritus member of the quorum of the seventy who’s spoken in general conference on various occasions and served in many positions of authority in church leadership means nothing?

Your seriously wondering why we have no substantial evidence to back our claims?

Let me help you there. Corporations worth over one hundred billion dollars with TEAMS of lawyers at their disposal tend to be meticulous in making sure there is no evidence to be found.
If your account of your meeting is true, how do you know Busche wasn't lying to you? By your own admission he is an excellent liar, because apparently he stood before thousands of people in GC and millions more around the world, and lied through his teeth about his beliefs.
So you know he is a very accomplished liar and has no problem deliberately deceiving people and telling them what they want to hear.
Did it ever occur to you that he was playing you along?

IcedKoffee
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by IcedKoffee »

Robin Hood wrote: March 27th, 2021, 4:07 pm
IcedKoffee wrote: March 27th, 2021, 1:14 pm
Matthias wrote: March 27th, 2021, 12:44 pm
IcedKoffee wrote: March 27th, 2021, 12:24 pm

All I can tell you is that everything I revealed came directly from Buche. This wasn’t shared as a means to be the smoking gun that will finally bring down the church. It was meant to be another piece of the puzzle for people who know things aren’t quite right amongst the brethren.
It doesn't matter what your motivations are or even what Buche did or didn't say. None of it has been substantiated.

And since you claim that you believe the brethren are false prophets, then it would appear that you are sharing this story as a smoking gun and not just as "another piece of the puzzle for people to know things aren’t quite right amongst the brethren."

It's clear you have an ax to grind. Which is your right, just own it.

Do you agree with Buche that Joseph Smith was a fraud?
So your saying that an account from an emeritus member of the quorum of the seventy who’s spoken in general conference on various occasions and served in many positions of authority in church leadership means nothing?

Your seriously wondering why we have no substantial evidence to back our claims?

Let me help you there. Corporations worth over one hundred billion dollars with TEAMS of lawyers at their disposal tend to be meticulous in making sure there is no evidence to be found.
If your account of your meeting is true, how do you know Busche wasn't lying to you? By your own admission he is an excellent liar, because apparently he stood before thousands of people in GC and millions more around the world, and lied through his teeth about his beliefs.
So you know he is a very accomplished liar and has no problem deliberately deceiving people and telling them what they want to hear.
Did it ever occur to you that he was playing you along?
I won’t deny that that is definitely a possibility. Are you willing to accept that he might be telling the truth?

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Luke
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by Luke »

I believe what you’ve said. Thanks for sharing mate

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Robin Hood
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by Robin Hood »

IcedKoffee wrote: March 27th, 2021, 4:09 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 27th, 2021, 4:07 pm
IcedKoffee wrote: March 27th, 2021, 1:14 pm
Matthias wrote: March 27th, 2021, 12:44 pm

It doesn't matter what your motivations are or even what Buche did or didn't say. None of it has been substantiated.

And since you claim that you believe the brethren are false prophets, then it would appear that you are sharing this story as a smoking gun and not just as "another piece of the puzzle for people to know things aren’t quite right amongst the brethren."

It's clear you have an ax to grind. Which is your right, just own it.

Do you agree with Buche that Joseph Smith was a fraud?
So your saying that an account from an emeritus member of the quorum of the seventy who’s spoken in general conference on various occasions and served in many positions of authority in church leadership means nothing?

Your seriously wondering why we have no substantial evidence to back our claims?

Let me help you there. Corporations worth over one hundred billion dollars with TEAMS of lawyers at their disposal tend to be meticulous in making sure there is no evidence to be found.
If your account of your meeting is true, how do you know Busche wasn't lying to you? By your own admission he is an excellent liar, because apparently he stood before thousands of people in GC and millions more around the world, and lied through his teeth about his beliefs.
So you know he is a very accomplished liar and has no problem deliberately deceiving people and telling them what they want to hear.
Did it ever occur to you that he was playing you along?
I won’t deny that that is definitely a possibility. Are you willing to accept that he might be telling the truth?
I'm prepared to accept that he might be telling what he believes to be true.
Just as I'd be prepared to accept that you may have had a very vivid dream which seemed so real.
There are all kinds of possibilities.
But surely you must accept that even if the meeting did happen, the whole thing is hearsay at best, and there is not one scrap of evidence beyond "Enzio said".
Last edited by Robin Hood on March 27th, 2021, 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

larsenb
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by larsenb »

IcedKoffee responded to this post by saying what Enzio said was essentially irrelevant to his belief in JS and what he produced.

I responded saying it was relevant and why. But IK probably deleted his last post before I posted mine, which blew mine out of the water.

For me, it would be relevant to know whether Enzio allegedly lost his faith in JS and the BofM, etc., before he became allegedly disaffected with his fellow leaders. If this were the case, he may have been much more susceptible to believing and seeing them in a very negative light, and even soaking up negative rumors about them.

On the other hand, if he developed his negative attitude toward his fellow-leaders first, then came to disbelieve in JS and what he produced as a result, this would suggest he might be throwing out the baby with the bath. And if he is, it would raise the question as to how, when and why the leaders went off the track.

Otherwise, too hearsay from relatively single or unidentified sources, and as Matthias said, would involve intense conspiracies to cover up conspiracies, etc., etc.
Last edited by larsenb on March 27th, 2021, 4:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by BeNotDeceived »

IcedKoffee wrote: March 27th, 2021, 3:37 pm Is there anyone who can help me delete this thread?
Why?

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Robin Hood
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by Robin Hood »

IcedKoffee wrote: March 27th, 2021, 3:37 pm Is there anyone who can help me delete this thread?
You have got to be kidding!
Like I said earlier, either put up or shut up. It appears you are taking my advice.

IcedKoffee
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by IcedKoffee »

Robin Hood wrote: March 27th, 2021, 4:26 pm
IcedKoffee wrote: March 27th, 2021, 3:37 pm Is there anyone who can help me delete this thread?
You have got to be kidding!
Like I said earlier, either put up or shut up. It appears you are taking my advice.
Put up what exactly. What kind of proof would you like me to produce? I have nothing other than what Buche told me. If that’s not enough for you people then delete the thread.

IcedKoffee
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by IcedKoffee »

larsenb wrote: March 27th, 2021, 4:19 pm IcedKoffee responded to this post by saying what Enzio said was essentially irrelevant to his belief in JS and what he produced.

I responded saying it was relevant and why. But IK probably deleted his last post before I posted mine, which blew mine out of the water.

For me, it would be relevant to know whether Enzio allegedly lost his faith in JS and the BofM, etc., before he became allegedly disaffected with his fellow leaders. If this were the case, he may have been much more susceptible to believing and seeing them in a very negative light, and even soaking up negative rumors about them.

On the other hand, if he developed his negative attitude toward his fellow-leaders first, then came to disbelieve in JS and what he produced as a result, this would suggest he might be throwing out the baby with the bath. And if he is, it would raise the question as to how, when and why the leaders went off the track.

Otherwise, too hearsay from relatively single or unidentified sources, and as Matthias said, would involve intense conspiracies to cover up conspiracies, etc., etc.
We didn’t go into any of the details about how he lost his belief. However, based on the atmosphere described amongst the brethren. He wasn’t the only one.

larsenb
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by larsenb »

IcedKoffee wrote: March 27th, 2021, 4:34 pm . . . . . We didn’t go into any of the details about how he lost his belief. However, based on the atmosphere described amongst the brethren. He wasn’t the only one.
OK. It's open ended, as far as you know.

But earlier, you said: "By this time in my life I had already become disenchanted with the church and it’s leaders. I was heavily involved with the growing remnant movement within the church".

For most of your readers, it would be interesting to know if you are still involved with this "remnant movement" (of which I know nothing). The name implies they still believe in JS's story and in what he produced. But do you?

I don't see this question as being pushy. You've posted something exceedingly controversial on this forum, so it seems entirely reasonable to learn exactly where you are coming from.
Last edited by larsenb on March 27th, 2021, 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Robin Hood
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by Robin Hood »

IcedKoffee wrote: March 27th, 2021, 4:31 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 27th, 2021, 4:26 pm
IcedKoffee wrote: March 27th, 2021, 3:37 pm Is there anyone who can help me delete this thread?
You have got to be kidding!
Like I said earlier, either put up or shut up. It appears you are taking my advice.
Put up what exactly. What kind of proof would you like me to produce? I have nothing other than what Buche told me. If that’s not enough for you people then delete the thread.
Earlier you hinted you would identify yourself. Still waiting. You can always private message me... and I can keep a confidence.
How about cooberating testimony from your mystery accomplice?
You have to understand that we have experienced many posters like this in the past. There was the whole Julie Rowe thing, Spencer etc, as well as people accusing the church/brethren etc of all kinds of evil misdeeds. You are not the first and you won't be the last.
All have eventually gone away with a flea in their ear because they couldn't come up with the goods. It was all rumour, hearsay, tenuous links, editorialising, conjecture, and unjustified assumptions.
You said you have more conclusive information but "it's complicated".
Well, we're all ears.

IcedKoffee
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by IcedKoffee »

Robin Hood wrote: March 27th, 2021, 4:46 pm
IcedKoffee wrote: March 27th, 2021, 4:31 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 27th, 2021, 4:26 pm
IcedKoffee wrote: March 27th, 2021, 3:37 pm Is there anyone who can help me delete this thread?
You have got to be kidding!
Like I said earlier, either put up or shut up. It appears you are taking my advice.
Put up what exactly. What kind of proof would you like me to produce? I have nothing other than what Buche told me. If that’s not enough for you people then delete the thread.
Earlier you hinted you would identify yourself. Still waiting. You can always private message me... and I can keep a confidence.
How about cooberating testimony from your mystery accomplice?
You have to understand that we have experienced many posters like this in the past. There was the whole Julie Rowe thing, Spencer etc, as well as people accusing the church/brethren etc of all kinds of evil misdeeds. You are not the first and you won't be the last.
All have eventually gone away with a flea in their ear because they couldn't come up with the goods. It was all rumour, hearsay, tenuous links, editorialising, conjecture, and unjustified assumptions.
You said you have more conclusive information but "it's complicated".
Well, we're all ears.
I totally get it, and I’m sorry for being so combative. I’ve been agonizing over the last couple of years about what I’m supposed to do concerning this information I’ve been sitting on. I have no idea what to do or who to turn to. I’m so sorry

IcedKoffee
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by IcedKoffee »

Until I have my friends permission I will not reveal his name. I don’t think that would be fair!

Juliet
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by Juliet »

He wrote a great book and he is a great man. I have no reason to believe he would lie. President Nelson was a part of the strengthening members committee that stopped investigations into Satanic Ritual Abuse in the church. I know six people first hand and more second hand who are survivors of Satanic Ritual Abuse. Why is this stuff exposed in catholicism but not our church? Anyway, by their fruits ye know them. The leaders want to make us a global religion more then they want to protect innocent children. I spoke to the church legal department myself and he said the church doesn't care about protecting children because it's only a job for law enforcement. So the church wants to create a global community but won't take responsibility for making the community safe for children.
Last edited by Juliet on March 27th, 2021, 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FoundMyEden
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by FoundMyEden »

Sarah wrote: March 27th, 2021, 11:22 am
IcedKoffee wrote: March 27th, 2021, 11:10 am
Sarah wrote: March 27th, 2021, 11:04 am I had sacred dream one time that involved seeing President Monson in the temple, very tired looking, but trying to help Pres. Faust and Pres Hinkley who were even more bent over and struggling to walk. I don't believe what you're claiming about Pres. Monson. All gossip.


Tell that to his victims. Their details would haunt you forever!
His victims should prove their case in a court of law. Innocent until proven guilty.
^^^This is why victims don’t want to come forward. I have personal experience trying to prove in a court of law abuse that was perpetrated towards myself and my children and because I didn’t have enough money, charisma, and popularity I was defeated in the ways of the world. But the Lord knew the case well and through miracles I won’t share on here, I was sustained in certain circumstances to win where I had no other reason to, except that the Lord was present as my witness.
Eyes can be wide open and see no evil where evil is certainly present. Don’t be so quick to throw this out. There is much evil presently in and out of the church.

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Silver Pie
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

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IcedKoffee wrote: March 27th, 2021, 7:03 am My 5 hour meeting with Enzio Buche, an emeritus General Authority of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints!

I’ve been somewhat conflicted over what I’m about to share because it was revealed to me in confidence. Unfortunately, due to continuing problematic (even dangerous) circumstances within the church, I feel obligated to finally break my silence. Up until almost three years ago, I had never heard of the name Enzio Buche. I had absolutely no idea who he was or how significant his status was within the church. I was asked by a mutual friend if I could accompany him to a meeting and bear my testimony of the Book of Mormon. It was explained to me that Enzio had lost his testimony in the restoration of the gospel and even Jesus Christ Himself. Saddened by what I was hearing, I felt that it was absolutely necessary to go along and help out in anyway that I could. So my friend and I began our journey to his home one evening as two missionaries who were highly motivated in rescuing a fallen brother.

As we arrived at Enzio’s home we were greeted by a very kind, and loving elderly gentleman. His personality could further be described as being very cheerful or even jolly. I liked him immediately. With his German accent and child like laughter, how could you not? After greeting us with a handshake and a hug we were led into his office which also doubled as his library. We promptly sat down in the two chairs positioned in the front of his desk, and after a brief introduction and some small talk, we got right into the heart of the matter. It was relayed to me that Enzio was uncomfortable discussing his issues in the church with just anyone. My friend had spent several years earning Enzio’s trust, and he only opened up after he became comfortable with me. What happened next could only be described as the wildest roller coaster ride I had ever been on in my life.

Enzio seemed to be extremely disappointed by his counterparts from the moment he arrived in America. As someone who is very loving and considerate of others he thought that he would be right at home working amongst the leaders of the church. Unfortunately to his dismay, the opposite became apparent rather quickly. He was coached by the leaders to view members of the church as being of a lesser status then the brethren which completely shattered the reality of how he viewed the leaders. The arrogance and ego they conveyed left a very sour taste in his mouth. He went on to tell us that one of his early positions in the church had to do with finding ways to save them money. While zealously working to prove himself to the leaders, he ended up saving the church around two hundred thousand dollars in expenses, and he was excited to share the good news. He was proud of his endeavors and believed that he had done a good job. Instead of being congratulated for a job well done, he was met with scorn and then told to try harder. It became very clear to him through this incident and other’s like it that the church was heavily focused on money, and rewarded those who could make them more of it.

Church broke

We spent a great deal of time in our meeting discussing the term “church broke”. I had never heard that term before but I grasped the concept almost immediately. According to Enzio, advancement within the church among the leaders was based on how church broken they were. Those who were willing to follow orders without asking questions rose through the ranks much more quickly than those whom the leaders felt might become problematic. The brethren seem to test the candidates that they feel would do well in higher position’s of authority. Based on what Enzio revealed next I believe he was being tested for that same purpose. As a child Enzio was a part of the Hitler youth during the time of Nazi Germany. The significance of this came into play during a plane ride with Thomas S Monson. While in flight President Monson began reading a book called “Mein Kampf” an autobiographical manifesto by Nazi Party leader Adolf Hitler. Enzio took notice because Monson angled the cover of the book towards Enzio’s direction with the hopes that he would see it. Monson’s intentions became glaringly obvious after he invited Enzio into his office after the flight. President Monson was all too eager to show Enzio his Nazi memorabilia once they had some privacy. What Monson failed to realize was that Enzio was in no way fond of his experience during Hitlers reign. He despised the Nazi’s and hated what they stood for. He seemed to be very confused and was even troubled by Monsons fascination with the topic. Regardless of Monson’s intentions (we won’t draw any conclusions just yet) he definitely wasn’t helping to rectify Enzio’s already strained opinion of the leaders. Enzio probably wasn’t doing himself any favors either by choosing to remain indifferent towards Monson’s advances. I got the feeling that they began keeping Enzio on a short leash after that experience.


More on Monson


Enzio worked very closely with president Monson for a number of years. When you contrast his views of him versus the other leaders of the church, Enzio definitely had the lowest opinion of Monson. But why? Before anyone tries to imply that Enzio may be speaking against Monson because of Jealousy, I would suggest listening to the rest of the story before you make up your mind. Enzio spoke about Monson with a reverence reserved for the likes of a lord Voldemort or the boogie man. I didn’t sense any sort of jealousy whatsoever. If I’m being completely honest the man seemed to be terrified of the brethren. Especially Monson!

By this time in my life I had already become disenchanted with the church and it’s leaders. I was heavily involved with the growing remnant movement within the church (a different sect then the Denver Snuffer movement). While I no longer believed that the leaders were who they portrayed themselves to be, I would have never placed them into the category as being truly evil. I can honestly say that if I wasn’t there to hear Enzio’s description of the brethren firsthand, I would have never believed it.


From Wikipedia-

The Pace Memorandum was a 1990 memorandum written by Glenn L Pace, a general authority in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, describing to a committee of the church the complaints of sixty members of the church that claimed they had been subjected to satanic ritual abuse (SRA) by family members and other members of the church. The state of Utah conducted a 30-month investigation of the claims after the Pace memorandum was leaked to the press in 1991, concluding that there was no evidence found to substantiate the testimony of the alleged victims.


Enzio Buche played a role in trying to get the brethren to take action on the Pace memorandum. Each time he tried, his efforts were sidelined and stalled. He described the brethren as not just being indifferent towards Pace’s findings but taking an active role in suppressing the information until they had enough time to shape their own narrative. Enzio did his own investigation (though I don’t know the extent) into the claims being made by the victims in Pace’s memorandum. The claims being made against the brethren were especially troubling. Just to be clear Enzio never said that he had witnessed any abuse firsthand. However, based on his time working and observing the leaders, he was absolutely convinced that both Hinckley and Monson were involved in the abuse, especially after investigating the claims being made by the victims!


For the most part the church seems to be compartmentalized. The flow of information is controlled very carefully. Hence the need for determining who’s church broke and who’s not. But one of the more shocking things that I was able to learn about was the “locker room talk” that the leaders engage in.


There is a rumor mill circulating within the leaders that involves Child pedophilia, murder, and scandals of varying magnitudes. Talks of rituals being performed in the temples during “off hours” seems to be a reoccurring theme. I’ve heard about these rumors from friends who were assigned to the leaders as security guards. Enzio has also reiterated the same rumors, and lamented that these things are often discussed amongst his colleagues. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve heard several insane conspiracies from members of the church involving the leaders but to hear it from an actual insider like Enzio Buche took it beyond the realm of impossibility. It became increasingly difficult to maintain my composure as Enzio went on to describe the brethren in a way that I had never heard nor imagined but I did my best to remain expressionless out of fear that he would stop sharing.


A brief detour


I was invited to share my experience with receiving the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost one evening at a friends house. A few people who are a part of the remnant movement were there and some who weren’t. After sharing my experience we went on to talk about issues in the church. I didn’t reveal Enzio’s name or go into any details but I told them that I had had a meeting with an emeritus member of the seventy that described president Monson in a way that would change your opinion of him forever. The moment I said that a woman, her son, and his wife all turned and looked at each other in complete shock. They then turned to me and asked “did he mention anything about President Monson performing rituals”? The question left me stunned and speechless for a moment. Then I asked them if we could talk after the meeting. They went on to tell me that they know of a few women who can never go back into the temple because of what happened to them as children under the hands of President Monson. They also know of a few women that Monson had been “inappropriate”with. There are other details involved that would lend credence to their claims but I’ve decided to exclude those to protect their identities. These people are still in good standing with the church and have no desire to go public whatsoever. They are not anti Mormon, and they are not trying to embarrass the church in any way. They were simply relaying their experience. I shared the rest of my story from Buche with them, and they said based on what they know of Monson personally, they believe it as well.



The sole purpose for our visit to Enzio’s was to try and help him regain his testimony of the Book of Mormon. My friend and I had a full on testimony meeting right there in the middle of his office. After about an hour and a half of us pleading our case for the BOM, he looked at us while being considerate of our convictions, and said “I’m sorry gentlemen, I hope I haven’t wasted your time but I no longer believe it”! We felt a bit defeated after that. My friend wanted to go into some of the issues that may have caused Enzio to lose his testimony of the BOM but Enzio was completely uninterested. In that moment I became very angry with the brethren thinking how could they set such a bad example of the gospel causing one of their own to lose his testimony? Well, my perspective on that changed entirely as Enzio went on to describe the atmosphere amongst the other leaders. As Enzio continued to share his experiences with his colleagues another troubling theme was begging to emerge. While he didn’t mention any names it was abundantly clear that unbelief within the leadership was not uncommon. To harken back to the term church broke, I got the sense that those who had lost their testimony of the foundational claims of the church but remained loyal to the brethren became true assets to them. Willing participants who would comply no matter what (CHURCH BROKE)! I felt like the wind had just been knocked out of me. As I said earlier, if it had been anyone other than Enzio Buche (an insider) relaying this experience, I wouldn’t have believed it.



I was hoping that after the initial shock from that meeting had worn off I would be able to resume life as usual. But that wasn’t the case. I needed to tell someone that I could trust to help me make sense of everything. So I met up with a couple of friends and began telling them about my get together with Enzio. Shortly after, one of them said this sounded very similar to another story about an emeritus member of the seventy that they had read about. He went on to tell me about Grant Palmer who I didn’t follow very closely at the time (mostly because of his anti Mormon views), and an interview that he had had with a GA. So I quickly googled the story and read it for myself. I was absolutely shocked at the similarities between our two stories. I can’t say for certain if Enzio is the same person that Grant Palmer interviewed but I wouldn’t blame anyone for drawing that conclusion.



Grant Palmer - A brief summary of his meeting with a GA!



Three Meetings with a LDS General Authority, 2012-2013
by Grant Palmer
Editor Comment: Grant waited 6 months before releasing this report to the public because he wanted to make sure this is what the GA believed.
In mid-October 2012, a returned LDS Mission President contacted me to arrange a meeting. Several days later, he called again and said that a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy also wished to attend. He said the General Authority would attend on condition that I not name him or repeat any stories that would identify him. He explained that neither of them, including the GA's wife, believed the founding claims of the restoration were true. He clarified that they had read my book, An insiders view of Mormon origins and had concluded that the LDS Church was not true; was not what it claimed to be. The GA often went to the MormonThink.com website for information and there discovered my book. The Mission President said he received my book from the GA.
We have at this writing met three times. We first met on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 and again February 14, 2013 at my house. On March 26, 2013 we convened at the GAs house. Upon entering my home for the first meeting the GA said, "We are here to learn." I recognized him. He has been a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy for a number of years. He has served in several high profile assignments during this period. The following are the more important statements made by the GA during our first three meetings. We now meet monthly.
He said that each new member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is given one million dollars to take care of any financial obligations they have. This money gift allows them to fully focus on the ministry. He said that the overriding consideration of who is chosen is whether they are "church broke," meaning, will they do whatever they are told. He said the senior six apostles make the agenda and do most of the talking. The junior six are told to observe, listen and learn and really only comment if they are asked. He said that it takes about two to three years before the new apostle discovers that the church is not true. He said it took Dieter F. Uchtdorf a little longer because he was an outsider. He said they privately talk among themselves and know the foundational claims of the restoration are not true, but continue on boldly "because the people need it," meaning the people need the church. When the Mission President voiced skepticism and named ___ as one who surely did believe, The GA said: "No, he doesn't." The one million dollar gift, plus their totally obedient attitude makes it easy for them to go along when they find out the church is not true. For these reasons and others, he doesn't expect any apostle to ever expose the truth about the foundational claims.
When I asked the GA how he knew these things, he answered by saying that the Quorum of the Twelve today is more isolated from the Quorums of the Seventies now because there are several of them. When only one Quorum of the Seventy existed, there was more intimacy. During his one on one assignments with an apostle, conversations were more familiar. He said that none of the apostles ever said to him directly that they did not believe; but that it was his opinion based on "his interactions with them." Also, that none of the Twelve want to discuss "truth issues," meaning issues regarding the foundational claims of the church.
He said that the apostle's lives are so completely and entirely enmeshed in every detail of their lives in the church, that many of them would probably die defending the church rather than admit the truth about Joseph Smith and the foundations of the church. The GA stated that my disciplinary action (which would have occurred on the final Sunday of October 2010 had I not resigned), was mandated/ordered/approved by the First Presidency of the Church. I said that if the apostles know the church is not true and yet order a disciplinary hearing for my writing a book that is almost certainly true regarding the foundational claims of the church, then they are corrupt even evil. He replied, "That's right!"
The GA said the church is like a weakened dam. At first you don't see cracks on the face; nevertheless, things are happening behind the scenes. Eventually, small cracks appear, and then the dam will "explode." When it does, he said, the members are going to be "shocked" and will need scholars/historians like me to educate them regarding the Mormon past.
The Mission President and the GA both said they attend church every Sunday and feel like "a hypocrite and trapped." The GA said his ward treats him like a king and when he gives firesides and speaks to LDS congregations they have high expectations of him. He would like to do more in getting the truth out besides raising a few questions when speaking and gifting my book to others when feeling comfortable. Perhaps this is why he has reached out to me. The GA is a man of integrity and very loving. Upon leaving each time, he always gives me a big hug.



If it was indeed Enzio that Palmer was talking to which even I, myself cannot deny the striking similarities, I wish I would have known prior. I would have loved to gain more insights into the inner workings of the 15. We discussed Monson and Hinkley while only mentioning Nelson and Oaks briefly. After hearing all of the horrifying details of Monson and Hinkley, my friend remarked that he believed Nelson and Oaks were much darker. Enzio replied, “I agree”. By that time we had already hit the 5 hour mark and I was far too worn out to think about how anyone could be darker then the two he just described.



I’ve told this story to a few people over the years. Here are some questions and answers from those conversations.



Q- What was Enzio’s reason for sharing what he did?

A- At the time I didn’t have enough context to draw a conclusion as to his motives. Having had time to reflect I truly believe his intentions were to warn as many people as he could through the limited avenues that were available to him. Without going into too much detail, I got the sense that Enzio was being monitored very closely. At about 4 hours into our conversation “someone” arrived at his house, opened his office door, and told Enzio to leave it open for fear that he was going to over heat. From that point forward Enzio stopped talking about anything controversial, and kept redirecting the flow of the conversation back to a more surface based discussion. It was explained to me that Enzio was worried about his pension from the church becoming jeopardized due to his speaking out which was the main reason for him not wanting his identity to be made known. I also sensed a great deal of regret and a yearning to free his conscience as he approached the last years of his life.

Q- Why hasn’t Enzio come out publicly himself?

A- Aside from the financial reasons discussed above, Enzio went on to tell us that the church controls everything in the state of Utah. All of the police, the judges, and the politicians are owned by the church. They even control the media as a means to shape the narrative into whatever they want it to be. Long story short, he feared for the well-being of his family.

Q- why are you choosing to speak out now? Don’t you feel like you are betraying him?

A- It’s true that I promised to protect his identity. However, now that the church is using pedo symbology aimed at the youth, I can no longer sit by quietly.

Q- Is Enzio an atheist?

A- He believes in God but no longer believes that Jesus Christ is our Savior. I sat across from the man for 5 hours straight and watched him decline every advance towards a belief in Jesus Christ that we tried to make. Joseph Smith and the BOM played no part in his belief system whatsoever yet you can find a few videos on YouTube of him bearing his testimony of both Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ over the pulpit during general conference. Keep that in mind next time your moved to tears by one of the brethren’s “faith promoting” stories. And no, he did not believe what he was saying during those conference’s. He was simply reading from the same script as the others.

Q- Are the brethren communists?

A- We had an interesting conversation about Ezra Taft Benson. There is a lot of wild speculations floating around about how he actually died. The rumors floating around some of the seventy would suggest that he passed away under mysterious circumstances. None of this can be proven so I’ll stick to what Enzio learned based on his time working with the leaders. It was well known amongst church leadership that the brethren were becoming increasingly concerned over Ezra’s rhetoric about communist gaining a strong foothold here in America. There was a move within the church to silence him, and anyone else who attempted to speak out on these kinds of matters. When asked why, Enzio replied very boldly in saying that the church leadership is controlled entirely by the New World Order! He then went on to confirm something that was revealed to me from a friend about the church sending a large sum of money to the Vatican ever year. When we asked Enzio if this were true? He replied by saying, “Yes, it’s true. The church sends money to the Vatican on a yearly basis.”

Q- What was Enzio’s mental state during this time?

A- I’m not the only one who is aware about Enzio speaking out against the church. There are those within his inner circle who have tried to discredit him claiming that he is suffering from dementia or some other form of cognitive impairment. I can assure you that not once during our 5 hour discussion did he become fatigued or drained mentally. He was sharp, witty, and lucid for the entire conversation. His ability to recall events from his life both past and present were impressive, and not just because of his age. Enzio was a very intelligent man who seemed to have all of his mental faculties functioning in proper order despite his advancing age. He was quick to agree or disagree on certain things that we discussed, and was careful to avoid exaggerating any details that he was uncertain of. To state that dementia was the reason behind him speaking out seems to be the ultimate slight against his character.


Q- I’ve read on Reddit that Enzio has been back tracking what he supposedly revealed to Grant Palmer.

A- Wether Enzio is or isn’t the person who Palmer met with I can’t say for certain. However, Enzio’s main objective was to secure his families financial well-being after he’s gone and to protect their reputation. I’m not shocked at all by him back tracking. Self preservation is a powerful motive. He never meant for his name to be made public. There seems to be an effort by both him and Palmer to manipulate the dates and details of a few occurrence’s in effort to protect Enzio’s identity.


Q- Why are you posting anonymously?

A- There have been talks of Enzio’s family threatening to sue John Dehlin for defamation. I guess he may have revealed Enzio’s name on a Facebook group in relation to Grant Palmers “mysterious” meeting with a GA. Well, I’m not too crazy about being sued either. I have a family to feed, and they come first. We’ve hit rock bottom more times than I can count especially with this recent scamdemic. One more hit might have my family living on the streets. I have ZERO problems revealing my identity other than that. I was about to release a video of me detailing my encounter with Enzio on YouTube until I found out that Dehlin was almost sued for doing the same thing. I have nothing to hide and I’m sure that my identity will be revealed at some point. There were other witnesses present during our meeting. I’m also worried that my identity would out them as well. But I would gladly put my name out there as long as I knew that my family would be protected.




On a side note I feel it necessary to clarify some misconceptions involving another meeting with Enzio Buche and a member from the Reddit community. They claim that Enzio backtracked a lot of what was written by Grant Palmer. There are now 3 accounts circulating on the internet about a meeting with Enzio Buche. Two of those accounts (mine and Palmers) are almost exactly identical in tonality, while the other is almost a complete 180 of what was revealed to both myself and Palmer. Here’s why! It took 6 years for my friend to develop a long standing relationship with Buche before he felt comfortable revealing ANYTHING about the inner workings of the church. Enzio (if it truly was him) reached out to Grant Palmer on his own accord to reveal his story. This Reddit user on the other hand reached out to Enzio completely out of the blue thereby forcing him to reveal his identity and most likely causing a panic within the old man.

From the Reddit user-

After close to 2 years of searching and talking to several people 'in the know,' I got enough information to deduce who it is. I was confident enough that I sent him a long type-written letter with some personal pictures explaining why I was looking for him and all that. A couple weeks later, I got a voicemail from him congratulating me for finding him. I called him back later, and we spoke on the phone for a bit, and he told me his story-

The reason why Enzio began back tracking with the Reddit user is because he didn’t trust Him/Her. How do I know this? When the door was flung open in Enzio’s office and he was told to leave it open, the tone of the conversation had shifted completely. Enzio started back tracking on certain things that he had revealed earlier. My friend and I understood that there were “listening ears” now present that Enzio had to be careful of. So we played along. The fact that so many decided to believe this Reddit users account over Palmer’s just because it fit the narrative that they favor absolutely astonishes me. Enzio took on a great risk revealing this information. While I wish he would have come out publicly himself I believe we all owe him a debt of gratitude. This may be the closest we ever get to having a whistleblower on the inside. And to add more clarity. I am not sharing this just because Enzio has passed on. The leaders of the church are now openly promoting pedophilia and globalism. If Enzio were alive today I’d still be sharing our conversation.
Thank you for sharing that.

While I can't know for sure if it's true because I wasn't there (and you sharing your name would have zero affect on that), I can tell you of a woman I met just over 20 years ago. She claimed to be a victim of sra. She told me of some experiences, and one of them was when she, along with other children, attended general conference to sing in a choir. They were taken into a room that she said was under the temple and rituals were inflicted upon them. She specifically named Monson (who was an apostle at the time) and Paul Dunn.

I won't say more because it would turn one's stomach and maybe even cause nightmares for some sensitive people.

I will be honest: I never knew whether to believe her or not, but over the years I have read other people's stories and they are similar (including what I didn't mention). Though I cannot comprehend these men being this evil, neither can I understand how so many witnesses can have such similar experiences.

I guess it causes mind overload.🤯

If it is false, I hope the truth is found out.
If it is true, I hope the truth is found out.

sushi_chef
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by sushi_chef »

very interesting, thanks for sharing, sush_ read those type/info from paul drockton site(now seems gone) so on too. remembers according to one lady among those victims or their circle said those kind of rituals have been since the time of brigham.

also blurrly but definitely remembers felt wonderful/comforting spirit when heard f. enzio (general conference) talk. kinda rare experience, dont remember what was the content of, when, but somewhere in utah through tv?! should be in 1980s. pretty much like the same wonderful feeling/impression sushi_ had at teenage kid or new member time so on to some missionaies from usa ...

so, kinda believes he must be a man of rightiousness, man of good will, holy gohst dwells in type ... thats his ordeal he had to have, feels kinda sympathy ...
:arrow:

mahalanobis
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by mahalanobis »

For what it's worth, I think you should keep the thread alive.

A few of the things you said were phrased in a way that comes across as "anti". But the majority of forum members here are folks who believe in the restoration to one degree or another, but who tend to be highly disillusioned with the institutional church. Or they believe it started pure and since went off the rails. Thus most people here simply want the truth without the anti-mormon voice track in the background.

This is one reason people keep asking your current opinion about Joseph Smith - because it allows them to know where you're coming from.
Last edited by mahalanobis on March 27th, 2021, 7:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Robin Hood
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by Robin Hood »

Ok, let's start again.
Perhaps I can pose a question.
I remember Elder F. Enzio Busche reasonably well. In fact I believe I have been in a stake conference where he spoke many years ago. However, by your own admission you had never heard of him prior to this incident.
So let's start here...how do you know that the man you spoke with was Busche? What evidence were you presented with? Are you sure it was Busche?

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Silver Pie
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by Silver Pie »

Matthias wrote: March 27th, 2021, 12:15 pmWhere's the evidence? Who are the victims?
I could give you a name, but that's doxxing. It isn't as if she's famous so sharing her name without her permission is fine and dandy.

She took the police to where she had seen babies' bodies shoved into a drain. The drain was clean. I'm pretty sure that, if it happened as she remembered, the remains would have been removed after the living children were taken away. Plus, this was years later, when she was an adult.

I haven't seen her for twenty years, but when I knew her, she was trying to be heard, trying to get her story out - but no one believed her that I knew of.

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Luke
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by Luke »

Don’t delete this thread my friend. The truth will cut its own way.

Juliet
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by Juliet »

IcedKoffee wrote: March 27th, 2021, 4:54 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 27th, 2021, 4:46 pm
IcedKoffee wrote: March 27th, 2021, 4:31 pm
Robin Hood wrote: March 27th, 2021, 4:26 pm

You have got to be kidding!
Like I said earlier, either put up or shut up. It appears you are taking my advice.
Put up what exactly. What kind of proof would you like me to produce? I have nothing other than what Buche told me. If that’s not enough for you people then delete the thread.
Earlier you hinted you would identify yourself. Still waiting. You can always private message me... and I can keep a confidence.
How about cooberating testimony from your mystery accomplice?
You have to understand that we have experienced many posters like this in the past. There was the whole Julie Rowe thing, Spencer etc, as well as people accusing the church/brethren etc of all kinds of evil misdeeds. You are not the first and you won't be the last.
All have eventually gone away with a flea in their ear because they couldn't come up with the goods. It was all rumour, hearsay, tenuous links, editorialising, conjecture, and unjustified assumptions.
You said you have more conclusive information but "it's complicated".
Well, we're all ears.
I totally get it, and I’m sorry for being so combative. I’ve been agonizing over the last couple of years about what I’m supposed to do concerning this information I’ve been sitting on. I have no idea what to do or who to turn to. I’m so sorry
Thank you for sharing. None of this information surprises me. Enzio is not the only one who sees what is being hidden.

There is a witness that one of the lds church presidents in the recent past was murdered. I have spoken to two second hand witnesses on that. All these dark combinations are involved in any type of world powerful organization.

Unless law enforcement will investigate the claims of victims this will never come to light. When was the last you ever heard someone get arrested for human sacrifice and sexual abuse during Satanic rituals?

Pedophiles get arrested. But Satanists do not because they own the system. They buy the drugs and they fund the research and they chemically abuse people who need help in some way. They are one leg short of controlling the world and they will use every religion that does not follow the Holy Spirit to do it. That includes our church. It's sad but it's true.

Anyone who gets close to exposing real evidence that this is happening gets disposed of quickly.

All people need to do is ask themselves if the church is in alignment with what the Holy Spirit teaches them. And beware for the false holy ghost the Satanists have because they have a counterfeit to everything.

Those who have been to the temple ceremony know that Satan uses money and buys himself everyone he needs and exes off the others. The way around this is to be willing to give your life for your beliefs. When you believe in God and don't give into Satan's threats, you are refusing to bow to him and when you do that God can protect you if it is His will. But most people bow to Satan and worship him because they believe he has the power to threaten them. And so he gains a foot hold as long as people think he is powerful enough to do that.

Moses knew better. Satan put up quite a tantrum but Moses would never bow to Satan or allow Satan to bribe or blackmail him. We have to be willing to trust in Jesus even if our own lives are threatened. Isn't Jesus more powerful to save us then the devil's threats?
Last edited by Juliet on March 27th, 2021, 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Silver Pie
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Re: 5 hours with Enzio Buche

Post by Silver Pie »

farmerchick wrote: March 27th, 2021, 2:49 pm SOOO you kinda lost most of us when you said the church owns the state of Utah
Well, actually, it's common knowledge (at least in my circles) that they heavily influence laws and such. I was born in Utah in 1957, and grew up in Salt Lake City.

When they wanted to build a new MTC, the people in that area of Provo were against it. All it took was the suggestion that the Brethren wanted it (and the hint that one was being disobedient to them if they opposed it) for a lot of people to back down.

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