5 hours with Enzio Buche

[pho·to·syn·the·sis]

-How do you think they got that shiny new temple In Rome only a few miles away from the Vatican?

Probably the same way IKEA and Globus (Grocery) did (both are next door). I'm sure copious amounts of money was involved. Not sure about secret payments to the Vatican? But...could have been.

I’ll admit I’m quite ignorant on matters when it comes to dealing with Rome, but for the Vatican to allow another religious institution to set up shop right in their backyard I’m guessing would require more than just a kiss of the ring!

Could have been. I really don't know. I'm not sure the Vatican looks at the "Mormon" church as a threat. Perhaps they might view us like the Bahai's? Our church made great fanfare (the event of the century) about President Nelson meeting with the pope. Not so much as a peep on the Katholic side. Just another meeting for the popo.

[IcedKoffee]

I had sacred dream one time that involved seeing President Monson in the temple, very tired looking, but trying to help Pres. Faust and Pres Hinkley who were even more bent over and struggling to walk. I don't believe what you're claiming about Pres. Monson. All gossip.

Tell that to his victims. Their details would haunt you forever!

His victims should prove their case in a court of law. Innocent until proven guilty.

What part of “the church controls everything in Utah” did you not understand? They own the police, the attorneys, the judges, and the politicians. They even control the media. Who exactly do you expect these victims to turn to? People like you are exactly why they are terrified to come forward.

[Robin Hood]

The question I have is "why". Why would these old men go to such efforts to maintain a lie?

-Good question. Why do the “brethren” in the Catholic Church go to such efforts to maintain their lie. Or how about the JW’s. I’m sure there are many reasons why these people choose to maintain their lie.

They are past retirement age, they don't need the money, they're getting tired and want to spend time with their families rather than jetting off all over the world, and have no respite.


-Once they die their family will need something to live on. Enzio is survived by his wife. What is she supposed to do, get a job now that Enzio’s gone. The fear was that he would lose his pension if they excommunicated him for apostasy. I doubt that it is a “pension” in the traditional sense.


Their only release is death.
So why on earth would they do this? And why would no one, not even one, ever break ranks and spill the beans? Or even drop a hint?


Um, does the name Enzio Buche ring any bells?!?!



I find Enzio's reported reluctance for fear of losing his pension rather ill thought out. Legally it is doubtful any pension provider can withdraw benefits based on something a retiree says. Additionally, all Busche would need to do is write a book exposing the whole sham and it would immediately be a best seller and make him a fortune.


-While also destroying his family in the process. Or did you fail to factor that part in?



While the story will clearly titilate itching ears it just doesn't make any sense.
Sending money to the Vatican every year... what on earth for? They're loaded.
That claim is clearly nonsense and therefore casts doubt on the rest.


-How do you think they got that shiny new temple In Rome only a few miles away from the Vatican?



There is also a clear inconsistency with this account. Apparently Icedkoffee's friend had spent 6 years gaining Elder Busche's trust, but he apparently opened up the very first time he met Icedkoffee. I just find that more than a little strange.


-Not strange at all. My friend who spent the last 6 years building a relationship with Buche vouched for me 2 weeks prior to us arriving at his doorstep. He opened up to me once I revealed that I believe the brethren are false prophets who are leading their people straight to hell. You see, he’s used to only having brethren worshiping sycophants coming to his home with the hopes of hearing glorious “faith promoting” tales of how wonderful their beloved leaders are. Talking to us was welcome release from having to constantly put on a fake persona in order to entertain the brethrenite groupies!



But Icedkoffee could resolve this problem if he:
1. Identified himself
2. Identified his friend.



-I’ll do it right now if that’s what you really want. If I do will that help you to believe this experience, or are you content with just nit picking and casting ridiculous assumptions?


-And thank you for thinking about my family. I can tell how concerned you are over the predicament this would put us in if we were to be sued.



While I tend to keep an open mind and would never rule anything out, all we really have is hearsay. There is no evidence that:
a) This meeting ever took place
b) or it it did, that Elder Busche ever said any of this.

-“While I tend to keep an open mind”
That’s a good one. LOL, please disregard the entire thread. I’m just trying to get another anti Mormon book deal. The whole thing is a lie. Nothing to see hear. Move along!

I mean, it’s not like there’s another account of Enzio Buche floating around on the internet describing the exact same thing!


I find it interesting that Icedkoffee describes himself as being heavily involved in the remnant movement, so perhaps has an axe of some sort to grind. Certainly can't claim impartiality.

-You sir/mam are just way to sharp. I can’t seem to get anything past you. Yes I fully admit that I have an axe to grind. Especially where globalist pedo’s are concerned.



If something sounds ridiculous it usually is.



-The only thing ridiculous here is your inability to accept reality!

Any insight on why Enzio no longer believed in the BofM or JS?

I honestly don’t know. He was very reluctant to go into the details. He could sense that my friend was ready to fire back at any anti argument he may have had so we dropped that subject immediately once it was brought up!

Seriously! You now claim to know what Busche "could sense".

Quit editorialising or you'll end up digging a very big hole for yourself.

[Robin Hood]

Here is a previous thread on Enzio Busche:
Grant Palmer’s secret, non-believing, emeritus general authority was F. Enzio Busche

The story in that thread is similar (same source?) and it had some inconsistencies.

From what I gathered ....

From whom?

[IcedKoffee]

The question I have is "why". Why would these old men go to such efforts to maintain a lie?

-Good question. Why do the “brethren” in the Catholic Church go to such efforts to maintain their lie. Or how about the JW’s. I’m sure there are many reasons why these people choose to maintain their lie.

Maybe they believe the Catholic church is true. Your contention is that none of the brethren believe the LDS church is.

They are past retirement age, they don't need the money, they're getting tired and want to spend time with their families rather than jetting off all over the world, and have no respite.


-Once they die their family will need something to live on. Enzio is survived by his wife. What is she supposed to do, get a job now that Enzio’s gone. The fear was that he would lose his pension if they excommunicated him for apostasy. I doubt that it is a “pension” in the traditional sense.

F. Enzio Busche was a successful and fairly wealthy man independent of his church calling.

Their only release is death.
So why on earth would they do this? And why would no one, not even one, ever break ranks and spill the beans? Or even drop a hint?


Um, does the name Enzio Buche ring any bells?!?!



I find Enzio's reported reluctance for fear of losing his pension rather ill thought out. Legally it is doubtful any pension provider can withdraw benefits based on something a retiree says. Additionally, all Busche would need to do is write a book exposing the whole sham and it would immediately be a best seller and make him a fortune.


-While also destroying his family in the process. Or did you fail to factor that part in?

His independent wealth makes this a non-issue in my view.

While the story will clearly titilate itching ears it just doesn't make any sense.
Sending money to the Vatican every year... what on earth for? They're loaded.
That claim is clearly nonsense and therefore casts doubt on the rest.


-How do you think they got that shiny new temple In Rome only a few miles away from the Vatican?

The Vatican is an independent state. Rome is the capital of Italy. Italy is a member of the EU and therefore has no choice other than to permit religious liberty. The church were just as able to purchase land and build in a suburb of Rome as any other church.

There is also a clear inconsistency with this account. Apparently Icedkoffee's friend had spent 6 years gaining Elder Busche's trust, but he apparently opened up the very first time he met Icedkoffee. I just find that more than a little strange.


-Not strange at all. My friend who spent the last 6 years building a relationship with Buche vouched for me 2 weeks prior to us arriving at his doorstep. He opened up to me once I revealed that I believe the brethren are false prophets who are leading their people straight to hell. You see, he’s used to only having brethren worshiping sycophants coming to his home with the hopes of hearing glorious “faith promoting” tales of how wonderful their beloved leaders are. Talking to us was welcome release from having to constantly put on a fake persona in order to entertain the brethrenite groupies!

Sorry, don't buy that. It took your friend 6 years and you 6 minutes. Maybe your friends definition of "trust" is a little liberal than mine.

But Icedkoffee could resolve this problem if he:
1. Identified himself
2. Identified his friend.



-I’ll do it right now if that’s what you really want.
Ok, go ahead.

If I do will that help you to believe this experience,
It would significantly enhance your credibility.

or are you content with just nit picking and casting ridiculous assumptions?


-And thank you for thinking about my family. I can tell how concerned you are over the predicament this would put us in if we were to be sued.
You are the one that posted on here, you are the one who is making these accusations. As we say here, "you should either put up or shut up".




While I tend to keep an open mind and would never rule anything out, all we really have is hearsay. There is no evidence that:
a) This meeting ever took place
b) or it it did, that Elder Busche ever said any of this.

-“While I tend to keep an open mind”
That’s a good one. LOL, please disregard the entire thread. I’m just trying to get another anti Mormon book deal. The whole thing is a lie. Nothing to see hear. Move along!
I've been on this forum for 8 years and most people know that I am reasonably open minded. 60 years on earth have taught me not to be gullible.

I mean, it’s not like there’s another account of Enzio Buche floating around on the internet describing the exact same thing!
Maybe that's where you got your info.

I find it interesting that Icedkoffee describes himself as being heavily involved in the remnant movement, so perhaps has an axe of some sort to grind. Certainly can't claim impartiality.

-You sir/mam are just way to sharp. I can’t seem to get anything past you. Yes I fully admit that I have an axe to grind. Especially where globalist pedo’s are concerned.
You won't find many confirmed brethrenites on this forum. But many of us have seen this kind of thing before. Someone turns up on the forum, makes sensational claims, has to remain anonymous to protect others, and are then incredulous when we question them and attempt to dissect their claims. Do you really think so little of us that you thought we would just accept your claims because you made them?


If something sounds ridiculous it usually is.



-The only thing ridiculous here is your inability to accept reality!
Demonstrate it is reality and I'll accept it.

You now have two accounts from people describing their meeting with a member who served amongst your beloved brethren. If Enzio’s account isn’t enough to convince you that the leaders are not who they claim to be then that’s on you. Not me!

[IcedKoffee]

Here is a previous thread on Enzio Busche:
Grant Palmer’s secret, non-believing, emeritus general authority was F. Enzio Busche

The story in that thread is similar (same source?) and it had some inconsistencies.

From what I gathered ....

From whom?

Your more than welcomed to search through the same Reddit threads that I did. Have at it!

[Robin Hood]

The question I have is "why". Why would these old men go to such efforts to maintain a lie?

-Good question. Why do the “brethren” in the Catholic Church go to such efforts to maintain their lie. Or how about the JW’s. I’m sure there are many reasons why these people choose to maintain their lie.

Maybe they believe the Catholic church is true. Your contention is that none of the brethren believe the LDS church is.

They are past retirement age, they don't need the money, they're getting tired and want to spend time with their families rather than jetting off all over the world, and have no respite.


-Once they die their family will need something to live on. Enzio is survived by his wife. What is she supposed to do, get a job now that Enzio’s gone. The fear was that he would lose his pension if they excommunicated him for apostasy. I doubt that it is a “pension” in the traditional sense.

F. Enzio Busche was a successful and fairly wealthy man independent of his church calling.

Their only release is death.
So why on earth would they do this? And why would no one, not even one, ever break ranks and spill the beans? Or even drop a hint?


Um, does the name Enzio Buche ring any bells?!?!



I find Enzio's reported reluctance for fear of losing his pension rather ill thought out. Legally it is doubtful any pension provider can withdraw benefits based on something a retiree says. Additionally, all Busche would need to do is write a book exposing the whole sham and it would immediately be a best seller and make him a fortune.


-While also destroying his family in the process. Or did you fail to factor that part in?

His independent wealth makes this a non-issue in my view.

While the story will clearly titilate itching ears it just doesn't make any sense.
Sending money to the Vatican every year... what on earth for? They're loaded.
That claim is clearly nonsense and therefore casts doubt on the rest.


-How do you think they got that shiny new temple In Rome only a few miles away from the Vatican?

The Vatican is an independent state. Rome is the capital of Italy. Italy is a member of the EU and therefore has no choice other than to permit religious liberty. The church were just as able to purchase land and build in a suburb of Rome as any other church.

There is also a clear inconsistency with this account. Apparently Icedkoffee's friend had spent 6 years gaining Elder Busche's trust, but he apparently opened up the very first time he met Icedkoffee. I just find that more than a little strange.


-Not strange at all. My friend who spent the last 6 years building a relationship with Buche vouched for me 2 weeks prior to us arriving at his doorstep. He opened up to me once I revealed that I believe the brethren are false prophets who are leading their people straight to hell. You see, he’s used to only having brethren worshiping sycophants coming to his home with the hopes of hearing glorious “faith promoting” tales of how wonderful their beloved leaders are. Talking to us was welcome release from having to constantly put on a fake persona in order to entertain the brethrenite groupies!

Sorry, don't buy that. It took your friend 6 years and you 6 minutes. Maybe your friends definition of "trust" is a little liberal than mine.

But Icedkoffee could resolve this problem if he:
1. Identified himself
2. Identified his friend.



-I’ll do it right now if that’s what you really want.
Ok, go ahead.

If I do will that help you to believe this experience,
It would significantly enhance your credibility.

or are you content with just nit picking and casting ridiculous assumptions?


-And thank you for thinking about my family. I can tell how concerned you are over the predicament this would put us in if we were to be sued.
You are the one that posted on here, you are the one who is making these accusations. As we say here, "you should either put up or shut up".




While I tend to keep an open mind and would never rule anything out, all we really have is hearsay. There is no evidence that:
a) This meeting ever took place
b) or it it did, that Elder Busche ever said any of this.

-“While I tend to keep an open mind”
That’s a good one. LOL, please disregard the entire thread. I’m just trying to get another anti Mormon book deal. The whole thing is a lie. Nothing to see hear. Move along!
I've been on this forum for 8 years and most people know that I am reasonably open minded. 60 years on earth have taught me not to be gullible.

I mean, it’s not like there’s another account of Enzio Buche floating around on the internet describing the exact same thing!
Maybe that's where you got your info.

I find it interesting that Icedkoffee describes himself as being heavily involved in the remnant movement, so perhaps has an axe of some sort to grind. Certainly can't claim impartiality.

-You sir/mam are just way to sharp. I can’t seem to get anything past you. Yes I fully admit that I have an axe to grind. Especially where globalist pedo’s are concerned.
You won't find many confirmed brethrenites on this forum. But many of us have seen this kind of thing before. Someone turns up on the forum, makes sensational claims, has to remain anonymous to protect others, and are then incredulous when we question them and attempt to dissect their claims. Do you really think so little of us that you thought we would just accept your claims because you made them?


If something sounds ridiculous it usually is.



-The only thing ridiculous here is your inability to accept reality!
Demonstrate it is reality and I'll accept it.

You now have two accounts from people describing their meeting with a member who served amongst your beloved brethren. If Enzio’s account isn’t enough to convince you that the leaders are not who they claim to be then that’s on you. Not me!

If I believe you, all we really have is two hearsay accounts, one of which could very well have been the source for the other.
I find it telling that you've apparently been sitting on this for quite some time.
Very convenient that Busche is now dead.
Oh wait.... I know the answer. You gave your word that you would treat this in the strictest confidence and never reveal it.
And yet here we are.
Perhaps it's better that you don't reveal your true identity, otherwise no one will ever share a confidence with you again.

[IcedKoffee]

The question I have is "why". Why would these old men go to such efforts to maintain a lie?

-Good question. Why do the “brethren” in the Catholic Church go to such efforts to maintain their lie. Or how about the JW’s. I’m sure there are many reasons why these people choose to maintain their lie.

They are past retirement age, they don't need the money, they're getting tired and want to spend time with their families rather than jetting off all over the world, and have no respite.


-Once they die their family will need something to live on. Enzio is survived by his wife. What is she supposed to do, get a job now that Enzio’s gone. The fear was that he would lose his pension if they excommunicated him for apostasy. I doubt that it is a “pension” in the traditional sense.


Their only release is death.
So why on earth would they do this? And why would no one, not even one, ever break ranks and spill the beans? Or even drop a hint?


Um, does the name Enzio Buche ring any bells?!?!



I find Enzio's reported reluctance for fear of losing his pension rather ill thought out. Legally it is doubtful any pension provider can withdraw benefits based on something a retiree says. Additionally, all Busche would need to do is write a book exposing the whole sham and it would immediately be a best seller and make him a fortune.


-While also destroying his family in the process. Or did you fail to factor that part in?



While the story will clearly titilate itching ears it just doesn't make any sense.
Sending money to the Vatican every year... what on earth for? They're loaded.
That claim is clearly nonsense and therefore casts doubt on the rest.


-How do you think they got that shiny new temple In Rome only a few miles away from the Vatican?



There is also a clear inconsistency with this account. Apparently Icedkoffee's friend had spent 6 years gaining Elder Busche's trust, but he apparently opened up the very first time he met Icedkoffee. I just find that more than a little strange.


-Not strange at all. My friend who spent the last 6 years building a relationship with Buche vouched for me 2 weeks prior to us arriving at his doorstep. He opened up to me once I revealed that I believe the brethren are false prophets who are leading their people straight to hell. You see, he’s used to only having brethren worshiping sycophants coming to his home with the hopes of hearing glorious “faith promoting” tales of how wonderful their beloved leaders are. Talking to us was welcome release from having to constantly put on a fake persona in order to entertain the brethrenite groupies!



But Icedkoffee could resolve this problem if he:
1. Identified himself
2. Identified his friend.



-I’ll do it right now if that’s what you really want. If I do will that help you to believe this experience, or are you content with just nit picking and casting ridiculous assumptions?


-And thank you for thinking about my family. I can tell how concerned you are over the predicament this would put us in if we were to be sued.



While I tend to keep an open mind and would never rule anything out, all we really have is hearsay. There is no evidence that:
a) This meeting ever took place
b) or it it did, that Elder Busche ever said any of this.

-“While I tend to keep an open mind”
That’s a good one. LOL, please disregard the entire thread. I’m just trying to get another anti Mormon book deal. The whole thing is a lie. Nothing to see hear. Move along!

I mean, it’s not like there’s another account of Enzio Buche floating around on the internet describing the exact same thing!


I find it interesting that Icedkoffee describes himself as being heavily involved in the remnant movement, so perhaps has an axe of some sort to grind. Certainly can't claim impartiality.

-You sir/mam are just way to sharp. I can’t seem to get anything past you. Yes I fully admit that I have an axe to grind. Especially where globalist pedo’s are concerned.



If something sounds ridiculous it usually is.



-The only thing ridiculous here is your inability to accept reality!

Any insight on why Enzio no longer believed in the BofM or JS?

I honestly don’t know. He was very reluctant to go into the details. He could sense that my friend was ready to fire back at any anti argument he may have had so we dropped that subject immediately once it was brought up!

Seriously! You now claim to know what Busche "could sense".

Quit editorialising or you'll end up digging a very big hole for yourself.

My friend was very fired up and ready to refute any anti claim that Enzio might bring up. It was evident from Enzio’s facial expressions and the tone of his voice that he was uncomfortable discussing the matter. That’s what I mean by sensed.

[Pazooka]

I had sacred dream one time that involved seeing President Monson in the temple, very tired looking, but trying to help Pres. Faust and Pres Hinkley who were even more bent over and struggling to walk. I don't believe what you're claiming about Pres. Monson. All gossip.

Tell that to his victims. Their details would haunt you forever!

His victims should prove their case in a court of law. Innocent until proven guilty.

Unless the courts were corrupt, you mean? And the judges bought and paid for?

[IcedKoffee]

I had sacred dream one time that involved seeing President Monson in the temple, very tired looking, but trying to help Pres. Faust and Pres Hinkley who were even more bent over and struggling to walk. I don't believe what you're claiming about Pres. Monson. All gossip.

Tell that to his victims. Their details would haunt you forever!

His victims should prove their case in a court of law. Innocent until proven guilty.

Unless the courts were corrupt, you mean? And the judges bought and paid for?

Yes, that is what I mean!

[nightlight]

My 5 hour meeting with Enzio Buche, an emeritus General Authority of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints!

I’ve been somewhat conflicted over what I’m about to share because it was revealed to me in confidence. Unfortunately, due to continuing problematic (even dangerous) circumstances within the church, I feel obligated to finally break my silence. Up until almost three years ago, I had never heard of the name Enzio Buche. I had absolutely no idea who he was or how significant his status was within the church. I was asked by a mutual friend if I could accompany him to a meeting and bear my testimony of the Book of Mormon. It was explained to me that Enzio had lost his testimony in the restoration of the gospel and even Jesus Christ Himself. Saddened by what I was hearing, I felt that it was absolutely necessary to go along and help out in anyway that I could. So my friend and I began our journey to his home one evening as two missionaries who were highly motivated in rescuing a fallen brother.

As we arrived at Enzio’s home we were greeted by a very kind, and loving elderly gentleman. His personality could further be described as being very cheerful or even jolly. I liked him immediately. With his German accent and child like laughter, how could you not? After greeting us with a handshake and a hug we were led into his office which also doubled as his library. We promptly sat down in the two chairs positioned in the front of his desk, and after a brief introduction and some small talk, we got right into the heart of the matter. It was relayed to me that Enzio was uncomfortable discussing his issues in the church with just anyone. My friend had spent several years earning Enzio’s trust, and he only opened up after he became comfortable with me. What happened next could only be described as the wildest roller coaster ride I had ever been on in my life.

Enzio seemed to be extremely disappointed by his counterparts from the moment he arrived in America. As someone who is very loving and considerate of others he thought that he would be right at home working amongst the leaders of the church. Unfortunately to his dismay, the opposite became apparent rather quickly. He was coached by the leaders to view members of the church as being of a lesser status then the brethren which completely shattered the reality of how he viewed the leaders. The arrogance and ego they conveyed left a very sour taste in his mouth. He went on to tell us that one of his early positions in the church had to do with finding ways to save them money. While zealously working to prove himself to the leaders, he ended up saving the church around two hundred thousand dollars in expenses, and he was excited to share the good news. He was proud of his endeavors and believed that he had done a good job. Instead of being congratulated for a job well done, he was met with scorn and then told to try harder. It became very clear to him through this incident and other’s like it that the church was heavily focused on money, and rewarded those who could make them more of it.

Church broke

We spent a great deal of time in our meeting discussing the term “church broke”. I had never heard that term before but I grasped the concept almost immediately. According to Enzio, advancement within the church among the leaders was based on how church broken they were. Those who were willing to follow orders without asking questions rose through the ranks much more quickly than those whom the leaders felt might become problematic. The brethren seem to test the candidates that they feel would do well in higher position’s of authority. Based on what Enzio revealed next I believe he was being tested for that same purpose. As a child Enzio was a part of the Hitler youth during the time of Nazi Germany. The significance of this came into play during a plane ride with Thomas S Monson. While in flight President Monson began reading a book called “Mein Kampf” an autobiographical manifesto by Nazi Party leader Adolf Hitler. Enzio took notice because Monson angled the cover of the book towards Enzio’s direction with the hopes that he would see it. Monson’s intentions became glaringly obvious after he invited Enzio into his office after the flight. President Monson was all too eager to show Enzio his Nazi memorabilia once they had some privacy. What Monson failed to realize was that Enzio was in no way fond of his experience during Hitlers reign. He despised the Nazi’s and hated what they stood for. He seemed to be very confused and was even troubled by Monsons fascination with the topic. Regardless of Monson’s intentions (we won’t draw any conclusions just yet) he definitely wasn’t helping to rectify Enzio’s already strained opinion of the leaders. Enzio probably wasn’t doing himself any favors either by choosing to remain indifferent towards Monson’s advances. I got the feeling that they began keeping Enzio on a short leash after that experience.


More on Monson


Enzio worked very closely with president Monson for a number of years. When you contrast his views of him versus the other leaders of the church, Enzio definitely had the lowest opinion of Monson. But why? Before anyone tries to imply that Enzio may be speaking against Monson because of Jealousy, I would suggest listening to the rest of the story before you make up your mind. Enzio spoke about Monson with a reverence reserved for the likes of a lord Voldemort or the boogie man. I didn’t sense any sort of jealousy whatsoever. If I’m being completely honest the man seemed to be terrified of the brethren. Especially Monson!

By this time in my life I had already become disenchanted with the church and it’s leaders. I was heavily involved with the growing remnant movement within the church (a different sect then the Denver Snuffer movement). While I no longer believed that the leaders were who they portrayed themselves to be, I would have never placed them into the category as being truly evil. I can honestly say that if I wasn’t there to hear Enzio’s description of the brethren firsthand, I would have never believed it.


From Wikipedia-

The Pace Memorandum was a 1990 memorandum written by Glenn L Pace, a general authority in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, describing to a committee of the church the complaints of sixty members of the church that claimed they had been subjected to satanic ritual abuse (SRA) by family members and other members of the church. The state of Utah conducted a 30-month investigation of the claims after the Pace memorandum was leaked to the press in 1991, concluding that there was no evidence found to substantiate the testimony of the alleged victims.


Enzio Buche played a role in trying to get the brethren to take action on the Pace memorandum. Each time he tried, his efforts were sidelined and stalled. He described the brethren as not just being indifferent towards Pace’s findings but taking an active role in suppressing the information until they had enough time to shape their own narrative. Enzio did his own investigation (though I don’t know the extent) into the claims being made by the victims in Pace’s memorandum. The claims being made against the brethren were especially troubling. Just to be clear Enzio never said that he had witnessed any abuse firsthand. However, based on his time working and observing the leaders, he was absolutely convinced that both Hinckley and Monson were involved in the abuse, especially after investigating the claims being made by the victims!


For the most part the church seems to be compartmentalized. The flow of information is controlled very carefully. Hence the need for determining who’s church broke and who’s not. But one of the more shocking things that I was able to learn about was the “locker room talk” that the leaders engage in.


There is a rumor mill circulating within the leaders that involves Child pedophilia, murder, and scandals of varying magnitudes. Talks of rituals being performed in the temples during “off hours” seems to be a reoccurring theme. I’ve heard about these rumors from friends who were assigned to the leaders as security guards. Enzio has also reiterated the same rumors, and lamented that these things are often discussed amongst his colleagues. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve heard several insane conspiracies from members of the church involving the leaders but to hear it from an actual insider like Enzio Buche took it beyond the realm of impossibility. It became increasingly difficult to maintain my composure as Enzio went on to describe the brethren in a way that I had never heard nor imagined but I did my best to remain expressionless out of fear that he would stop sharing.


A brief detour


I was invited to share my experience with receiving the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost one evening at a friends house. A few people who are a part of the remnant movement were there and some who weren’t. After sharing my experience we went on to talk about issues in the church. I didn’t reveal Enzio’s name or go into any details but I told them that I had had a meeting with an emeritus member of the seventy that described president Monson in a way that would change your opinion of him forever. The moment I said that a woman, her son, and his wife all turned and looked at each other in complete shock. They then turned to me and asked “did he mention anything about President Monson performing rituals”? The question left me stunned and speechless for a moment. Then I asked them if we could talk after the meeting. They went on to tell me that they know of a few women who can never go back into the temple because of what happened to them as children under the hands of President Monson. They also know of a few women that Monson had been “inappropriate”with. There are other details involved that would lend credence to their claims but I’ve decided to exclude those to protect their identities. These people are still in good standing with the church and have no desire to go public whatsoever. They are not anti Mormon, and they are not trying to embarrass the church in any way. They were simply relaying their experience. I shared the rest of my story from Buche with them, and they said based on what they know of Monson personally, they believe it as well.



The sole purpose for our visit to Enzio’s was to try and help him regain his testimony of the Book of Mormon. My friend and I had a full on testimony meeting right there in the middle of his office. After about an hour and a half of us pleading our case for the BOM, he looked at us while being considerate of our convictions, and said “I’m sorry gentlemen, I hope I haven’t wasted your time but I no longer believe it”! We felt a bit defeated after that. My friend wanted to go into some of the issues that may have caused Enzio to lose his testimony of the BOM but Enzio was completely uninterested. In that moment I became very angry with the brethren thinking how could they set such a bad example of the gospel causing one of their own to lose his testimony? Well, my perspective on that changed entirely as Enzio went on to describe the atmosphere amongst the other leaders. As Enzio continued to share his experiences with his colleagues another troubling theme was begging to emerge. While he didn’t mention any names it was abundantly clear that unbelief within the leadership was not uncommon. To harken back to the term church broke, I got the sense that those who had lost their testimony of the foundational claims of the church but remained loyal to the brethren became true assets to them. Willing participants who would comply no matter what (CHURCH BROKE)! I felt like the wind had just been knocked out of me. As I said earlier, if it had been anyone other than Enzio Buche (an insider) relaying this experience, I wouldn’t have believed it.



I was hoping that after the initial shock from that meeting had worn off I would be able to resume life as usual. But that wasn’t the case. I needed to tell someone that I could trust to help me make sense of everything. So I met up with a couple of friends and began telling them about my get together with Enzio. Shortly after, one of them said this sounded very similar to another story about an emeritus member of the seventy that they had read about. He went on to tell me about Grant Palmer who I didn’t follow very closely at the time (mostly because of his anti Mormon views), and an interview that he had had with a GA. So I quickly googled the story and read it for myself. I was absolutely shocked at the similarities between our two stories. I can’t say for certain if Enzio is the same person that Grant Palmer interviewed but I wouldn’t blame anyone for drawing that conclusion.



Grant Palmer - A brief summary of his meeting with a GA!



Three Meetings with a LDS General Authority, 2012-2013
by Grant Palmer
Editor Comment: Grant waited 6 months before releasing this report to the public because he wanted to make sure this is what the GA believed.
In mid-October 2012, a returned LDS Mission President contacted me to arrange a meeting. Several days later, he called again and said that a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy also wished to attend. He said the General Authority would attend on condition that I not name him or repeat any stories that would identify him. He explained that neither of them, including the GA's wife, believed the founding claims of the restoration were true. He clarified that they had read my book, An insiders view of Mormon origins and had concluded that the LDS Church was not true; was not what it claimed to be. The GA often went to the MormonThink.com website for information and there discovered my book. The Mission President said he received my book from the GA.
We have at this writing met three times. We first met on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 and again February 14, 2013 at my house. On March 26, 2013 we convened at the GAs house. Upon entering my home for the first meeting the GA said, "We are here to learn." I recognized him. He has been a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy for a number of years. He has served in several high profile assignments during this period. The following are the more important statements made by the GA during our first three meetings. We now meet monthly.
He said that each new member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is given one million dollars to take care of any financial obligations they have. This money gift allows them to fully focus on the ministry. He said that the overriding consideration of who is chosen is whether they are "church broke," meaning, will they do whatever they are told. He said the senior six apostles make the agenda and do most of the talking. The junior six are told to observe, listen and learn and really only comment if they are asked. He said that it takes about two to three years before the new apostle discovers that the church is not true. He said it took Dieter F. Uchtdorf a little longer because he was an outsider. He said they privately talk among themselves and know the foundational claims of the restoration are not true, but continue on boldly "because the people need it," meaning the people need the church. When the Mission President voiced skepticism and named ___ as one who surely did believe, The GA said: "No, he doesn't." The one million dollar gift, plus their totally obedient attitude makes it easy for them to go along when they find out the church is not true. For these reasons and others, he doesn't expect any apostle to ever expose the truth about the foundational claims.
When I asked the GA how he knew these things, he answered by saying that the Quorum of the Twelve today is more isolated from the Quorums of the Seventies now because there are several of them. When only one Quorum of the Seventy existed, there was more intimacy. During his one on one assignments with an apostle, conversations were more familiar. He said that none of the apostles ever said to him directly that they did not believe; but that it was his opinion based on "his interactions with them." Also, that none of the Twelve want to discuss "truth issues," meaning issues regarding the foundational claims of the church.
He said that the apostle's lives are so completely and entirely enmeshed in every detail of their lives in the church, that many of them would probably die defending the church rather than admit the truth about Joseph Smith and the foundations of the church. The GA stated that my disciplinary action (which would have occurred on the final Sunday of October 2010 had I not resigned), was mandated/ordered/approved by the First Presidency of the Church. I said that if the apostles know the church is not true and yet order a disciplinary hearing for my writing a book that is almost certainly true regarding the foundational claims of the church, then they are corrupt even evil. He replied, "That's right!"
The GA said the church is like a weakened dam. At first you don't see cracks on the face; nevertheless, things are happening behind the scenes. Eventually, small cracks appear, and then the dam will "explode." When it does, he said, the members are going to be "shocked" and will need scholars/historians like me to educate them regarding the Mormon past.
The Mission President and the GA both said they attend church every Sunday and feel like "a hypocrite and trapped." The GA said his ward treats him like a king and when he gives firesides and speaks to LDS congregations they have high expectations of him. He would like to do more in getting the truth out besides raising a few questions when speaking and gifting my book to others when feeling comfortable. Perhaps this is why he has reached out to me. The GA is a man of integrity and very loving. Upon leaving each time, he always gives me a big hug.



If it was indeed Enzio that Palmer was talking to which even I, myself cannot deny the striking similarities, I wish I would have known prior. I would have loved to gain more insights into the inner workings of the 15. We discussed Monson and Hinkley while only mentioning Nelson and Oaks briefly. After hearing all of the horrifying details of Monson and Hinkley, my friend remarked that he believed Nelson and Oaks were much darker. Enzio replied, “I agree”. By that time we had already hit the 5 hour mark and I was far too worn out to think about how anyone could be darker then the two he just described.



I’ve told this story to a few people over the years. Here are some questions and answers from those conversations.



Q- What was Enzio’s reason for sharing what he did?

A- At the time I didn’t have enough context to draw a conclusion as to his motives. Having had time to reflect I truly believe his intentions were to warn as many people as he could through the limited avenues that were available to him. Without going into too much detail, I got the sense that Enzio was being monitored very closely. At about 4 hours into our conversation “someone” arrived at his house, opened his office door, and told Enzio to leave it open for fear that he was going to over heat. From that point forward Enzio stopped talking about anything controversial, and kept redirecting the flow of the conversation back to a more surface based discussion. It was explained to me that Enzio was worried about his pension from the church becoming jeopardized due to his speaking out which was the main reason for him not wanting his identity to be made known. I also sensed a great deal of regret and a yearning to free his conscience as he approached the last years of his life.

Q- Why hasn’t Enzio come out publicly himself?

A- Aside from the financial reasons discussed above, Enzio went on to tell us that the church controls everything in the state of Utah. All of the police, the judges, and the politicians are owned by the church. They even control the media as a means to shape the narrative into whatever they want it to be. Long story short, he feared for the well-being of his family.

Q- why are you choosing to speak out now? Don’t you feel like you are betraying him?

A- It’s true that I promised to protect his identity. However, now that the church is using pedo symbology aimed at the youth, I can no longer sit by quietly.

Q- Is Enzio an atheist?

A- He believes in God but no longer believes that Jesus Christ is our Savior. I sat across from the man for 5 hours straight and watched him decline every advance towards a belief in Jesus Christ that we tried to make. Joseph Smith and the BOM played no part in his belief system whatsoever yet you can find a few videos on YouTube of him bearing his testimony of both Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ over the pulpit during general conference. Keep that in mind next time your moved to tears by one of the brethren’s “faith promoting” stories. And no, he did not believe what he was saying during those conference’s. He was simply reading from the same script as the others.

Q- Are the brethren communists?

A- We had an interesting conversation about Ezra Taft Benson. There is a lot of wild speculations floating around about how he actually died. The rumors floating around some of the seventy would suggest that he passed away under mysterious circumstances. None of this can be proven so I’ll stick to what Enzio learned based on his time working with the leaders. It was well known amongst church leadership that the brethren were becoming increasingly concerned over Ezra’s rhetoric about communist gaining a strong foothold here in America. There was a move within the church to silence him, and anyone else who attempted to speak out on these kinds of matters. When asked why, Enzio replied very boldly in saying that the church leadership is controlled entirely by the New World Order! He then went on to confirm something that was revealed to me from a friend about the church sending a large sum of money to the Vatican ever year. When we asked Enzio if this were true? He replied by saying, “Yes, it’s true. The church sends money to the Vatican on a yearly basis.”

Q- What was Enzio’s mental state during this time?

A- I’m not the only one who is aware about Enzio speaking out against the church. There are those within his inner circle who have tried to discredit him claiming that he is suffering from dementia or some other form of cognitive impairment. I can assure you that not once during our 5 hour discussion did he become fatigued or drained mentally. He was sharp, witty, and lucid for the entire conversation. His ability to recall events from his life both past and present were impressive, and not just because of his age. Enzio was a very intelligent man who seemed to have all of his mental faculties functioning in proper order despite his advancing age. He was quick to agree or disagree on certain things that we discussed, and was careful to avoid exaggerating any details that he was uncertain of. To state that dementia was the reason behind him speaking out seems to be the ultimate slight against his character.


Q- I’ve read on Reddit that Enzio has been back tracking what he supposedly revealed to Grant Palmer.

A- Wether Enzio is or isn’t the person who Palmer met with I can’t say for certain. However, Enzio’s main objective was to secure his families financial well-being after he’s gone and to protect their reputation. I’m not shocked at all by him back tracking. Self preservation is a powerful motive. He never meant for his name to be made public. There seems to be an effort by both him and Palmer to manipulate the dates and details of a few occurrence’s in effort to protect Enzio’s identity.


Q- Why are you posting anonymously?

A- There have been talks of Enzio’s family threatening to sue John Dehlin for defamation. I guess he may have revealed Enzio’s name on a Facebook group in relation to Grant Palmers “mysterious” meeting with a GA. Well, I’m not too crazy about being sued either. I have a family to feed, and they come first. We’ve hit rock bottom more times than I can count especially with this recent scamdemic. One more hit might have my family living on the streets. I have ZERO problems revealing my identity other than that. I was about to release a video of me detailing my encounter with Enzio on YouTube until I found out that Dehlin was almost sued for doing the same thing. I have nothing to hide and I’m sure that my identity will be revealed at some point. There were other witnesses present during our meeting. I’m also worried that my identity would out them as well. But I would gladly put my name out there as long as I knew that my family would be protected.




On a side note I feel it necessary to clarify some misconceptions involving another meeting with Enzio Buche and a member from the Reddit community. They claim that Enzio backtracked a lot of what was written by Grant Palmer. There are now 3 accounts circulating on the internet about a meeting with Enzio Buche. Two of those accounts (mine and Palmers) are almost exactly identical in tonality, while the other is almost a complete 180 of what was revealed to both myself and Palmer. Here’s why! It took 6 years for my friend to develop a long standing relationship with Buche before he felt comfortable revealing ANYTHING about the inner workings of the church. Enzio (if it truly was him) reached out to Grant Palmer on his own accord to reveal his story. This Reddit user on the other hand reached out to Enzio completely out of the blue thereby forcing him to reveal his identity and most likely causing a panic within the old man.

From the Reddit user-

After close to 2 years of searching and talking to several people 'in the know,' I got enough information to deduce who it is. I was confident enough that I sent him a long type-written letter with some personal pictures explaining why I was looking for him and all that. A couple weeks later, I got a voicemail from him congratulating me for finding him. I called him back later, and we spoke on the phone for a bit, and he told me his story-

The reason why Enzio began back tracking with the Reddit user is because he didn’t trust Him/Her. How do I know this? When the door was flung open in Enzio’s office and he was told to leave it open, the tone of the conversation had shifted completely. Enzio started back tracking on certain things that he had revealed earlier. My friend and I understood that there were “listening ears” now present that Enzio had to be careful of. So we played along. The fact that so many decided to believe this Reddit users account over Palmer’s just because it fit the narrative that they favor absolutely astonishes me. Enzio took on a great risk revealing this information. While I wish he would have come out publicly himself I believe we all owe him a debt of gratitude. This may be the closest we ever get to having a whistleblower on the inside. And to add more clarity. I am not sharing this just because Enzio has passed on. The leaders of the church are now openly promoting pedophilia and globalism. If Enzio were alive today I’d still be sharing our conversation.

how do you currently feel about the Book of Mormon?

[LDS Watchman]

Whether not this interview took place and whether or not Buche said what he is alleged to have said in this interview, is really irrelevant.

It's hearsay, and nothing more.

Monson being a pedophile is a completely unsubstantiated accusation. Where's the evidence? Who are the victims?

The brethren all "know the church isn't true and that Joseph Smith was a fraud?" Yeah right!

These men who have dedicated their entire lives to the church "know it's all a sham?" I don't believe it for a second.

This doesn't mean all is well in Zion, it clearly isn't. But either Buche was full of it, or those who claimed to have interviewed him are.

[IcedKoffee]

Whether not this interview took place and whether or not Buche said what he is alleged to have said in this interview, is really irrelevant.

It's hearsay, and nothing more.

Monson being a pedophile is a completely unsubstantiated accusation. Where's the evidence? Who are the victims?

The brethren all "know the church isn't true and that Joseph Smith was a fraud?" Yeah right!

These men who have dedicated their entire lives to the church "know it's all a sham?" I don't believe it for a second.

This doesn't mean all is well in Zion, it clearly isn't. But either Buche was full of it, or those who claimed to have interviewed him are.

All I can tell you is that everything I revealed came directly from Buche. This wasn’t shared as a means to be the smoking gun that will finally bring down the church. It was meant to be another piece of the puzzle for people who know things aren’t quite right amongst the brethren.

[LDS Watchman]

Whether not this interview took place and whether or not Buche said what he is alleged to have said in this interview, is really irrelevant.

It's hearsay, and nothing more.

Monson being a pedophile is a completely unsubstantiated accusation. Where's the evidence? Who are the victims?

The brethren all "know the church isn't true and that Joseph Smith was a fraud?" Yeah right!

These men who have dedicated their entire lives to the church "know it's all a sham?" I don't believe it for a second.

This doesn't mean all is well in Zion, it clearly isn't. But either Buche was full of it, or those who claimed to have interviewed him are.

All I can tell you is that everything I revealed came directly from Buche. This wasn’t shared as a means to be the smoking gun that will finally bring down the church. It was meant to be another piece of the puzzle for people who know things aren’t quite right amongst the brethren.

It doesn't matter what your motivations are or even what Buche did or didn't say. None of it has been substantiated.

And since you claim that you believe the brethren are false prophets, then it would appear that you are sharing this story as a smoking gun and not just as "another piece of the puzzle for people to know things aren’t quite right amongst the brethren."

It's clear you have an ax to grind. Which is your right, just own it.

Do you agree with Buche that Joseph Smith was a fraud?

[IcedKoffee]

Whether not this interview took place and whether or not Buche said what he is alleged to have said in this interview, is really irrelevant.

It's hearsay, and nothing more.

Monson being a pedophile is a completely unsubstantiated accusation. Where's the evidence? Who are the victims?

The brethren all "know the church isn't true and that Joseph Smith was a fraud?" Yeah right!

These men who have dedicated their entire lives to the church "know it's all a sham?" I don't believe it for a second.

This doesn't mean all is well in Zion, it clearly isn't. But either Buche was full of it, or those who claimed to have interviewed him are.

All I can tell you is that everything I revealed came directly from Buche. This wasn’t shared as a means to be the smoking gun that will finally bring down the church. It was meant to be another piece of the puzzle for people who know things aren’t quite right amongst the brethren.

It doesn't matter what your motivations are or even what Buche did or didn't say. None of it has been substantiated.

And since you claim that you believe the brethren are false prophets, then it would appear that you are sharing this story as a smoking gun and not just as "another piece of the puzzle for people to know things aren’t quite right amongst the brethren."

It's clear you have an ax to grind. Which is your right, just own it.

Do you agree with Buche that Joseph Smith was a fraud?

So your saying that an account from an emeritus member of the quorum of the seventy who’s spoken in general conference on various occasions and served in many positions of authority in church leadership means nothing?

Your seriously wondering why we have no substantial evidence to back our claims?

Let me help you there. Corporations worth over one hundred billion dollars with TEAMS of lawyers at their disposal tend to be meticulous in making sure there is no evidence to be found.

[LDS Watchman]

So your saying that an account from an emeritus member of the quorum of the seventy who’s spoken in general conference on various occasions and served in many positions of authority in church leadership means nothing?

Not if no one can verify what he said or even that he said it.

Your seriously wondering why we have no substantial evidence to back our claims?

Let me help you there. Corporations worth over one hundred billion dollars with TEAMS of lawyers at their disposal tend to be meticulous in making sure there is no evidence to be found.

And yet damaging things against the Church are leaked all the time. No way evidence for a massive pedophile scandal involving apostles doesn't get leaked if its true. Same goes for evidence that all the apostles supposedly "know the church isn't true."

Where there's smoke there's fire. And where there's no smoke there's no fire, either.

[IcedKoffee]

So your saying that an account from an emeritus member of the quorum of the seventy who’s spoken in general conference on various occasions and served in many positions of authority in church leadership means nothing?

Not if no one can verify what he said or even that he said it.

Your seriously wondering why we have no substantial evidence to back our claims?

Let me help you there. Corporations worth over one hundred billion dollars with TEAMS of lawyers at their disposal tend to be meticulous in making sure there is no evidence to be found.

And yet damaging things against the Church are leaked all the time. No way evidence for a massive pedophile scandal involving apostles doesn't get leaked if its true. Same goes for evidence that all the apostles supposedly "know the church isn't true."

Where there's smoke there's fire. And where there's no smoke there's no fire, either.

“No way evidence for a massive pedophile scandal involving apostles doesn't get leaked if its true.”

Cover up’s can easily happen In a state where a religious institution controls the cops, the judges, the politicians and the media. You’d have to be extremely naïve to think other wise.

[nightlight]

So your saying that an account from an emeritus member of the quorum of the seventy who’s spoken in general conference on various occasions and served in many positions of authority in church leadership means nothing?

Not if no one can verify what he said or even that he said it.

Your seriously wondering why we have no substantial evidence to back our claims?

Let me help you there. Corporations worth over one hundred billion dollars with TEAMS of lawyers at their disposal tend to be meticulous in making sure there is no evidence to be found.

And yet damaging things against the Church are leaked all the time. No way evidence for a massive pedophile scandal involving apostles doesn't get leaked if its true. Same goes for evidence that all the apostles supposedly "know the church isn't true."

Where there's smoke there's fire. And where there's no smoke there's no fire, either.

“No way evidence for a massive pedophile scandal involving apostles doesn't get leaked if its true.”

Cover up’s can easily happen In a state where a religious institution controls the cops, the judges, the politicians and the media. You’d have to extremely naïve to think other wise.

What's your current view of the Book of Mormon?

[LDS Watchman]

So your saying that an account from an emeritus member of the quorum of the seventy who’s spoken in general conference on various occasions and served in many positions of authority in church leadership means nothing?

Not if no one can verify what he said or even that he said it.

Your seriously wondering why we have no substantial evidence to back our claims?

Let me help you there. Corporations worth over one hundred billion dollars with TEAMS of lawyers at their disposal tend to be meticulous in making sure there is no evidence to be found.

And yet damaging things against the Church are leaked all the time. No way evidence for a massive pedophile scandal involving apostles doesn't get leaked if its true. Same goes for evidence that all the apostles supposedly "know the church isn't true."

Where there's smoke there's fire. And where there's no smoke there's no fire, either.

“No way evidence for a massive pedophile scandal involving apostles doesn't get leaked if its true.”

Cover up’s can easily happen In a state where a religious institution controls the cops, the judges, the politicians and the media. You’d have to be extremely naïve to think other wise.

Where's the evidence that the Church "controls the cops, the judges, the politicians and the media?"

You'd have to be extremely gullible to believe an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory that requires an even bigger unsubstantiated conspiracy theory to validate it.

[IcedKoffee]

So your saying that an account from an emeritus member of the quorum of the seventy who’s spoken in general conference on various occasions and served in many positions of authority in church leadership means nothing?

Not if no one can verify what he said or even that he said it.

Your seriously wondering why we have no substantial evidence to back our claims?

Let me help you there. Corporations worth over one hundred billion dollars with TEAMS of lawyers at their disposal tend to be meticulous in making sure there is no evidence to be found.

And yet damaging things against the Church are leaked all the time. No way evidence for a massive pedophile scandal involving apostles doesn't get leaked if its true. Same goes for evidence that all the apostles supposedly "know the church isn't true."

Where there's smoke there's fire. And where there's no smoke there's no fire, either.

“No way evidence for a massive pedophile scandal involving apostles doesn't get leaked if its true.”

Cover up’s can easily happen In a state where a religious institution controls the cops, the judges, the politicians and the media. You’d have to be extremely naïve to think other wise.

Where's the evidence that the Church "controls the cops, the judges, the politicians and the media?"

You'd have to be extremely gullible to believe an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory that requires an even bigger unsubstantiated conspiracy theory to validate it.

Once again this was confirmed to me by Enzio Buche. I see now that nothing he revealed in our get together matters to absolutely no one on this forum. I honestly thought I was helping people here but I realize now that I was mistaken.

What should I have done with what Enzio told me? Should have kept to myself?

I would love nothing more than to provide you with all of the evidence that you desire but that is far more complicated then it sounds.

If Enzio himself were here to share his story would it matter. Or would you all attack and bully him the same way that you have done to me.

Seriously what am I supposed to do here? I was a nothing and a nobody while I was in the church.

All I have to go off of is what Enzio told me.

[farmerchick]

SOOO you kinda lost most of us when you said the church owns the state of Utah......and the reason your zealous defender of the bom friend, just brought you along when you obviously were seeking in a remnant direction, seems a bit odd if you were there to reconvert him.......lotsa people lose their testimonies.......perhaps enzio did......it's easy to become disaffected by leaders or members....but to lose faith in Christ, but believe in God, just doesn't make alot of practical sense. Most people who profess a belief in Jesus Christ aren't easily swayed even if leaders and members aren't as good as they need to be. If your belief system relies upon anyone other than Jesus Christ you will be disappointed.....because no one here is perfect..,..being disaffected at times myself with local leaders does not lead me to deny the Christ.....and anyone who would do that, no matter who it was...from the prophet to a member would lose my respect...as I believe in Jesus Christ.......the scriptures are pretty clear....and all the pedophilia supposedly going on by the leaders couldn't be kept secret forever....something besides rumors and innuendos would have come to light......the last point about enzio worrying about his pension seems ridiculous.....what type of person who supposedly had a conscience would live a lie like that? Soo you've either disparaged a good mans reputation or exposed a man who lived a fraudulent life......either way, with friends like you who needs an enemy?

[mahalanobis]

Perhaps we can agree that sunlight is a great disinfectant. For both the church institution and for accusations against it.

If it's true, I pray that it be made manifest, and evident.

[EmmaLee]

The truth of all things, and of all people, will be made manifest when the Lord deems it so. No unrepented of sin will stay hidden - whether it be the Church's, or yours, or mine. When the Lord reveals things, there will be no question of its truthfulness. You are right, mahalanobis, sunlight is a great disinfectant.

Luke 12:3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

[LDS Watchman]

What should I have done with what Enzio told me? Should have kept to myself?

If you aren't willing to answer follow up questions about your views on what he said are, then you probably should have kept it to yourself.

I would love nothing more than to provide you with all of the evidence that you desire but that is far more complicated then it sounds.

If Enzio himself were here to share his story would it matter.

At least if we heard it straight from him, we could confirm that he actually said what you claim he did.

Or would you all attack and bully him the same way that you have done to me.

Who's attacking and bullying you?

It appears some of us don't believe the claims being made. If Buche was here delivering this story himself, you can bet he would be asked some tough questions and to produce some evidence to back up his claims.

Seriously what am I supposed to do here? I was a nothing and a nobody while I was in the church.

You could start by answering the question of what your views of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and prophetic calling of Joseph Smith are.

All I have to go off of is what Enzio told me.

And all we have to go off is a second account by an anonymous person we know absolutely nothing about.

[IcedKoffee]

What should I have done with what Enzio told me? Should have kept to myself?

If you aren't willing to answer follow up questions about your views on what he said are, then you probably should have kept it to yourself.

I would love nothing more than to provide you with all of the evidence that you desire but that is far more complicated then it sounds.

If Enzio himself were here to share his story would it matter.

At least if we heard it straight from him, we could confirm that he actually said what you claim he did.

Or would you all attack and bully him the same way that you have done to me.

Who's attacking and bullying you?

It appears some of us don't believe the claims being made. If Buche was here delivering this story himself, you can bet he would be asked some tough questions and to produce some evidence to back up his claims.

Seriously what am I supposed to do here? I was a nothing and a nobody while I was in the church.

You could start by answering the question of what your views of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and prophetic calling of Joseph Smith are.

All I have to go off of is what Enzio told me.

And all we have to go off is a second account by an anonymous person we know absolutely nothing about.

I get it and your absolutely right. I shouldn’t have shared this without having more than what Enzio shared with me. If you can help me delete the thread I would greatly appreciate it. I honestly thought I was helping. My apologies for anyone offense I may have caused!