LDS Freedom Forum

I can’t help but relate the current state of members in the church to the parable of the ten virgins. Whether or not our leaders are on the right track, I believe it will be to our doom if we simply rely on their faith. I see too many people taking what church leaders say and running without so much as a prayer to know if it’s true.

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

There are several takeaways and thoughts I get from this...

1) We need to be CONSTANTLY seeking to better ourselves and be prepared for the Savior’s second coming. If you don’t know when something is going to happen, you must be ready to drop everything and go. There will be no time to read your scriptures, gain a testimony, or buy your food storage when the time comes.

2) I cannot stress enough the importance of personal revelation in your individual life. Your “oil” is yours and yours alone. If you don’t have one already, I implore you to gain a testimony of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, there is a difference between the Gospel and the church. You cannot rely on the testimony of ANY man, regardless of his calling. I have many friends, family, and acquaintances who would tell me to follow the leaders of the church without question because they will never lead the church astray. I do not believe this to be true, men are fallible (see quote from Joseph Smith at the bottom if you disagree).

3) It is written in scripture and I have seen in my own life where leaders of the church in the last days will proclaim “all is well”. While at times they also advocate for your individual preparedness, the mentality that “all is well” will naturally coerce people into believing preparedness is not necessary.

I believe the leaders of the church will not be prepared in all the ways that are needed (partly because of the all is well mindset, and partly because they are proud and do not think they can do wrong), hence what is mentioned about the “watchmen” in scripture:

10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.
11 Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
12 Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.

Those who seek for truth will need to separate themselves from that influence. This idea is portrayed in the JST of Mark 9:

42 And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off.
43 It is better for thee, to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched.
44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.
47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Right now my testimony stands strongest on this idea, that you NEED personal revelation and to be putting yourself in a place of spiritual and physical preparedness for the days ahead.

Exact obedience to anyone or anything aside from God and promptings of the Spirit is not the way. To better understand our relationship with church leaders, I advise reading this quote from Joseph Smith in the Millennial Star.
(I know I know, I’ve posted this a lot)

"Priesthood," Millennial Star 14/38 (13 November 1852):

"Because of...the apparent imperfections of men on whom God confers authority, the question is sometimes asked,—to what extent is obedience to those who hold the priesthood required? This is a very important question, and one which should be understood by all Saints. In attempting to answer this question, we would repeat, in short, what we have already written, that willing obedience to the laws of God, administered by the Priesthood, is indispensable to salvation; but we would further add, that a proper conservative to this power exists for the benefit of all, and none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the Priesthood. We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God, who seeks for the redemption of his fellows, would despise the idea of seeing another become his slave, who had an equal right with himself to the favour of God; he would rather see him stand by his side, a sworn enemy to wrong, so long as there was place found for it among men. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority, have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their Presidents, they should do it without asking any questions.
When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands."

I appreciate any other thoughts you may have on this subject. God bless, have a good day!

I cringe when I read or hear the phrases, "our leaders" or "church leaders". First of all, as a human, and especially an American, I don't have any leader. Second, if this in the church of our Lord Jesus Christ, there are no leaders except Jesus Christ.

Heber C Kimball said something that always comes to my mind when I think of trying to endure on borrowed light. I won't quote him but he expressed it very well. Things will become so dire that this will become a real issue.

A prophet should be focused on leading people to Christ. Everyone has to make his or her own connection. Lehi learned this in his 'night vision'. At first, he followed a man in white. He finally called upon Jesus Christ, who showed him the Tree of Life.

HeberC wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 4:58 pm I cringe when I read or hear the phrases, "our leaders" or "church leaders". First of all, as a human, and especially an American, I don't have any leader. Second, if this in the church of our Lord Jesus Christ, there are no leaders except Jesus Christ.

Heber C Kimball said something that always comes to my mind when I think of trying to endure on borrowed light. I won't quote him but he expressed it very well. Things will become so dire that this will become a real issue.

A prophet should be focused on leading people to Christ. Everyone has to make his or her own connection. Lehi learned this in his 'night vision'. At first, he followed a man in white. He finally called upon Jesus Christ, who showed him the Tree of Life.

I hadn’t thought of Lehi’s vision in this context, thanks for pointing that out.

HeberC wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 4:58 pm I cringe when I read or hear the phrases, "our leaders" or "church leaders".

I cringe when people say "the church said X" or "the church teaches Y".

The church is the entire body of membership. So I lean towards phrases life "our leaders" and "church leaders" to emphasize the institutional/hierarchical nature of my comments... for clarity.

Looks like someone is cringe no matter how we phrase things.

mahalanobis wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 5:07 pm

HeberC wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 4:58 pm I cringe when I read or hear the phrases, "our leaders" or "church leaders".

I cringe when people say "the church said X" or "the church teaches Y".

The church is the entire body of membership. So I lean towards phrases life "our leaders" and "church leaders" to emphasize the institutional/hierarchical nature of my comments... for clarity.

I've also become sensitive to the things both of you are talking about, so I've begun saying, "church officers," or something like it instead.

Amen

I love your usage of the parable of the 10 virgins
to urge us to be prepared.

I love the importance you give to personal revelation.

I even accept your warning that our Leaders are not
perfect yet.


The only thing I would add to any warning of our leaders is that,
while we should all be on watch that we may have a leader fall astray,
I can find no fault with them presently.


I still remember vividly the spirit that came upon me at
the age of eight, when i was baptized. It rest upon me for several hours.

The moment i first walked into the Salt Lake Temple at the age
of Twelve, to do baptisms for the dead, I knew and will never
be able to deny, that that is the House of the Lord, and
His spirit rests upon it.

As a young missionary in the MTC, when the veil was lifted and
I beheld heavenly visions, I knew.

Our good brethren at the head of the Lord's Church hold
that Holy Priesthood that was given to our ancient Father Adam,
and has been restored to us today.

I stand with the Lords Anointed as if they where the Lord Himself.


Steven

greatFearerofGod wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:00 pm Amen

I love your usage of the parable of the 10 virgins
to urge us to be prepared.

I love the importance you give to personal revelation.

I even accept your warning that our Leaders are not
perfect yet.


The only thing I would add to any warning of our leaders is that,
while we should all be on watch that we may have a leader fall astray,
I can find no fault with them presently.


I still remember vividly the spirit that came upon me at
the age of eight, when i was baptized. It rest upon me for several hours.

The moment i first walked into the Salt Lake Temple at the age
of Twelve, to do baptisms for the dead, I knew and will never
be able to deny, that that is the House of the Lord, and
His spirit rests upon it.

As a young missionary in the MTC, when the veil was lifted and
I beheld heavenly visions, I knew.

Our good brethren at the head of the Lord's Church hold
that Holy Priesthood that was given to our ancient Father Adam,
and has been restored to us today.

I stand with the Lords Anointed as if they where the Lord Himself.


Steven

Thank you

They are good men who teach amazing principles. The one fault I currently know enough to debate about is their advocacy for masks and covid injections. I stand on good ground saying we need to take the masks off at church (and everywhere else for that matter), and not urge anyone to get the covid shots.

In his book, The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil, Elder H. Verlan Andersen wrote, "According to the parables of the “wheat and the tares” and the “ten virgins,” when the 'great division' comes, at least one-half of those who regard themselves as “faithful' members of the Lord’s Church will be classified as members of Satan’s organization." I find it very interesting that he did not apply the parable of the ten virgins to the entire Church but to only "those who regard themselves as 'faithful' members." That narrows it down quite a bit.

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:09 pm In his book, The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil, Elder H. Verlan Andersen wrote, "According to the parables of the “wheat and the tares” and the “ten virgins,” when the 'great division' comes, at least one-half of those who regard themselves as “faithful' members of the Lord’s Church will be classified as members of Satan’s organization." I find it very interesting that he did not apply the parable of the ten virgins to the entire Church but to only "those who regard themselves as 'faithful' members." That narrows it down quite a bit.

That is very insightful... and at this point in my studies makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing.

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:09 pm In his book, The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil, Elder H. Verlan Andersen wrote, "According to the parables of the “wheat and the tares” and the “ten virgins,” when the 'great division' comes, at least one-half of those who regard themselves as “faithful' members of the Lord’s Church will be classified as members of Satan’s organization." I find it very interesting that he did not apply the parable of the ten virgins to the entire Church but to only "those who regard themselves as 'faithful' members." That narrows it down quite a bit.

That is probably conservative

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:11 pm

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:09 pm In his book, The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil, Elder H. Verlan Andersen wrote, "According to the parables of the “wheat and the tares” and the “ten virgins,” when the 'great division' comes, at least one-half of those who regard themselves as “faithful' members of the Lord’s Church will be classified as members of Satan’s organization." I find it very interesting that he did not apply the parable of the ten virgins to the entire Church but to only "those who regard themselves as 'faithful' members." That narrows it down quite a bit.

That is very insightful... and at this point in my studies makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing.

I first read this back in 2014 and it struck me as being true. I looked at this and figured that the "faithful" members were those who could be counted as "temple worthy," but not necessarily temple recommend holders. Then, I read on in his book and came across this.

If it be true that only one half of that small group designated by the Lord as “virgins” will avoid being deceived into joining the devil’s church, deception constitutes one of the gravest risks faced in this life. However, very few seem to give the problem much thought even though the scriptures are filled with warnings against it. Of course, many never read those warnings, but those who do tend to apply them to others. Consequently, indifference to the problem is quite general. Being unaware of the danger, people take no measures to defend themselves against it, and thus fall easy victims to one of Satan’s most formidable weapons.

After reading that book, I read his next one and came across this quote, "It appears that no matter how honorable and well intentioned we may be, if we permit ourselves to be deceived, we will fall short of the Celestial Kingdom" (Many Are Called, But Few Are Chosen, p 19). As I look at all the members in the wards I have ever attended, the primary thing I've come across is their being deceived in some way, almost always is because of their secular education. They believe in it implicitly; they bow at the altar of education and are deceived by it.

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:23 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:11 pm

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:09 pm In his book, The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil, Elder H. Verlan Andersen wrote, "According to the parables of the “wheat and the tares” and the “ten virgins,” when the 'great division' comes, at least one-half of those who regard themselves as “faithful' members of the Lord’s Church will be classified as members of Satan’s organization." I find it very interesting that he did not apply the parable of the ten virgins to the entire Church but to only "those who regard themselves as 'faithful' members." That narrows it down quite a bit.

That is very insightful... and at this point in my studies makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing.

I first read this back in 2014 and it struck me as being true. I looked at this and figured that the "faithful" members were those who could be counted as "temple worthy," but not necessarily temple recommend holders. Then, I read on in his book and came across this.

If it be true that only one half of that small group designated by the Lord as “virgins” will avoid being deceived into joining the devil’s church, deception constitutes one of the gravest risks faced in this life. However, very few seem to give the problem much thought even though the scriptures are filled with warnings against it. Of course, many never read those warnings, but those who do tend to apply them to others. Consequently, indifference to the problem is quite general. Being unaware of the danger, people take no measures to defend themselves against it, and thus fall easy victims to one of Satan’s most formidable weapons.

After reading that book, I read his next one and came across this quote, "It appears that no matter how honorable and well intentioned we may be, if we permit ourselves to be deceived, we will fall short of the Celestial Kingdom" (Many Are Called, But Few Are Chosen, p 19). As I look at all the members in the wards I have ever attended, the primary thing I've come across is their being deceived in some way, almost always is because of their secular education. They believe in it implicitly; they bow at the altar of education and are deceived by it.

Yeah I believe that was especially seen this past year. It reminds me of when Christ taught, “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” It turns my eye to the pride of wealthy church members, especially those in positions of leadership, practicing unrighteousness dominion on occasion. Knowledge of the world will only take us so far. I think often of Joseph Smith as an example, accomplishing miracles with a 3rd grade education.

About wearing masks


I was with you when this all started a year ago. I did my shopping at Smith's and stuck out like a sore thumb
without a mask. I thought it was a bunch of silly nonsense.

But when the Prophet told us to be kind to one another and wear masks, my heart was softened.

My parents are elderly and are terrified by this. They rarely leave the house, I do their shopping for them.
I wear a mask now, not because I believe in it, but for other people. If those poor old people I see doing their
own shopping can feel a little safer if they see me with a mask, it is a small thing i can do for my fellow brothers
and sisters.

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:09 pm In his book, The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil, Elder H. Verlan Andersen wrote, "According to the parables of the “wheat and the tares” and the “ten virgins,” when the 'great division' comes, at least one-half of those who regard themselves as “faithful' members of the Lord’s Church will be classified as members of Satan’s organization." I find it very interesting that he did not apply the parable of the ten virgins to the entire Church but to only "those who regard themselves as 'faithful' members." That narrows it down quite a bit.

It's important to note that Isaiah's writings more than imply that this will not hold true for only the general membership but also for the officers in the church, including senior officers.

I'm writing this because a lot of people will follow up a statement like the one you quoted with something like, "So you better be sure to follow the church president and apostles and do whatever they say so you won't be deceived!"

The deception and division isn't limited to everyone without "keys." The deception and division will affect individuals from top to bottom, inside and out, through and through.

President Nelson's warning was spot on: [it is] not ... possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost.

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:53 pm

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:09 pm In his book, The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil, Elder H. Verlan Andersen wrote, "According to the parables of the “wheat and the tares” and the “ten virgins,” when the 'great division' comes, at least one-half of those who regard themselves as “faithful' members of the Lord’s Church will be classified as members of Satan’s organization." I find it very interesting that he did not apply the parable of the ten virgins to the entire Church but to only "those who regard themselves as 'faithful' members." That narrows it down quite a bit.

It's important to note that Isaiah's writings more than imply that this will not hold true for only the general membership but also for the officers in the church, including senior officers.

I'm writing this because a lot of people will follow up a statement like the one you quoted with something like, "So you better be sure to follow the church president and apostles and do whatever they say so you won't be deceived!"

The deception and division isn't limited to everyone without "keys." The deception and division will affect individuals from top to bottom, inside and out, through and through.

President Nelson's warning was spot on: [it is] not ... possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost.

When Isaiah speaks about watchman, it could elude that those at the head of the church are even more at fault than those following. Hence calling them “dumb dogs.”

mahalanobis wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 5:07 pm

HeberC wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 4:58 pm I cringe when I read or hear the phrases, "our leaders" or "church leaders".

I cringe when people say "the church said X" or "the church teaches Y".

The church is the entire body of membership. So I lean towards phrases life "our leaders" and "church leaders" to emphasize the institutional/hierarchical nature of my comments... for clarity.

Looks like someone is cringe no matter how we phrase things.

I prefer to say 'our church rulers' or 'our church overlords'

Cruiserdude wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:59 pm

mahalanobis wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 5:07 pm

HeberC wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 4:58 pm I cringe when I read or hear the phrases, "our leaders" or "church leaders".

I cringe when people say "the church said X" or "the church teaches Y".

The church is the entire body of membership. So I lean towards phrases life "our leaders" and "church leaders" to emphasize the institutional/hierarchical nature of my comments... for clarity.

Looks like someone is cringe no matter how we phrase things.

I prefer to say 'our church rulers' or 'our church overlords'

I humbly kneel before those "rulers" or "overlords" if they posses the Keys of the Kingdom

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:56 pm

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:53 pm

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:09 pm In his book, The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil, Elder H. Verlan Andersen wrote, "According to the parables of the “wheat and the tares” and the “ten virgins,” when the 'great division' comes, at least one-half of those who regard themselves as “faithful' members of the Lord’s Church will be classified as members of Satan’s organization." I find it very interesting that he did not apply the parable of the ten virgins to the entire Church but to only "those who regard themselves as 'faithful' members." That narrows it down quite a bit.

It's important to note that Isaiah's writings more than imply that this will not hold true for only the general membership but also for the officers in the church, including senior officers.

I'm writing this because a lot of people will follow up a statement like the one you quoted with something like, "So you better be sure to follow the church president and apostles and do whatever they say so you won't be deceived!"

The deception and division isn't limited to everyone without "keys." The deception and division will affect individuals from top to bottom, inside and out, through and through.

President Nelson's warning was spot on: [it is] not ... possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost.

When Isaiah speaks about watchman, it could elude that those at the head of the church are even more at fault than those following. Hence calling them “dumb dogs.”

Dumb watchdogs who don't stand and bark at approaching danger. Yes, Isaiah's prophecy rips into church officers, or His covenant people's appointed watchmen (not to be confused with the other watchmen who will actually watch and warn) with a striking tone of warning that ought to influence us to pay more attention to what he's saying.

From Isaiah 56:

Jehovah curses the blind watchmen of his people but exalts his servants who hold fast to his covenant.

"Their watchmen are altogether blind and unaware; all of them are but dumb watchdogs unable to bark, lolling seers fond of slumber. Gluttonous dogs, and insatiable, such indeed are insensible shepherds. They are all diverted to their own way, every one after his own advantage. Come, they say, let us get wine and have our fill of liquor. For tomorrow will be like today, only far better!"

Note that elsewhere Isaiah calls the drunkenness not on alcohol but on delusion, or the misleading of the mind...not that it can't also mean being old-fashioned drunk.

That last part, with tomorrow being like today only better, reminds me of the requests for prayers to return to normal... I've felt gut-punched about that since I first heard it. Normal is Babylon. Normal is wickedness. What we need isn't a tomorrow like today or "better" in the sense of more Babylonian prosperity, but we need actual repentance from our real-life breaking of God's laws and failure to embrace His principles, like our idolatry, adultery, sabbath breaking, dishonesty, worldliness and immodesty, etc.

greatFearerofGod wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 7:03 pm

Cruiserdude wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:59 pm

mahalanobis wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 5:07 pm

HeberC wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 4:58 pm I cringe when I read or hear the phrases, "our leaders" or "church leaders".

I cringe when people say "the church said X" or "the church teaches Y".

The church is the entire body of membership. So I lean towards phrases life "our leaders" and "church leaders" to emphasize the institutional/hierarchical nature of my comments... for clarity.

Looks like someone is cringe no matter how we phrase things.

I prefer to say 'our church rulers' or 'our church overlords'

I humbly kneel before those "rulers" or "overlords" if they posses the Keys of the Kingdom

At this point, I'll kneel only to my Savior, the Redeemer of the world.... Anyone else gets a 6 ft apart 'elbow bump' (but I hear ya, of course respect to those in the leader positions of the church...... they get the same huge love from me like I have for my fellow brothers and sisters )

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 7:09 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:56 pm

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:53 pm

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:09 pm In his book, The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil, Elder H. Verlan Andersen wrote, "According to the parables of the “wheat and the tares” and the “ten virgins,” when the 'great division' comes, at least one-half of those who regard themselves as “faithful' members of the Lord’s Church will be classified as members of Satan’s organization." I find it very interesting that he did not apply the parable of the ten virgins to the entire Church but to only "those who regard themselves as 'faithful' members." That narrows it down quite a bit.

It's important to note that Isaiah's writings more than imply that this will not hold true for only the general membership but also for the officers in the church, including senior officers.

I'm writing this because a lot of people will follow up a statement like the one you quoted with something like, "So you better be sure to follow the church president and apostles and do whatever they say so you won't be deceived!"

The deception and division isn't limited to everyone without "keys." The deception and division will affect individuals from top to bottom, inside and out, through and through.

President Nelson's warning was spot on: [it is] not ... possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost.

When Isaiah speaks about watchman, it could elude that those at the head of the church are even more at fault than those following. Hence calling them “dumb dogs.”

Dumb watchdogs who don't stand and bark at approaching danger. Yes, Isaiah's prophecy rips into church officers, or His covenant people's appointed watchmen (not to be confused with the other watchmen who will actually watch and warn) with a striking tone of warning that ought to influence us to pay more attention to what he's saying.

From Isaiah 56:

Jehovah curses the blind watchmen of his people but exalts his servants who hold fast to his covenant.

"Their watchmen are altogether blind and unaware; all of them are but dumb watchdogs unable to bark, lolling seers fond of slumber. Gluttonous dogs, and insatiable, such indeed are insensible shepherds. They are all diverted to their own way, every one after his own advantage. Come, they say, let us get wine and have our fill of liquor. For tomorrow will be like today, only far better!"

Note that elsewhere Isaiah calls the drunkenness not on alcohol but on delusion, or the misleading of the mind...not that it can't also mean being old-fashioned drunk.

That last part, with tomorrow being like today only better, reminds me of the requests for prayers to return to normal... I've felt gut-punched about that since I first heard it. Normal is Babylon. Normal is wickedness. What we need isn't a tomorrow like today or "better" in the sense of more Babylonian prosperity, but we need actual repentance.

Could you imagine how lost we'd feel in this current time if we didn't have what Isaiah wrote for us?!?!?

Cruiserdude wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 7:10 pm

greatFearerofGod wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 7:03 pm

Cruiserdude wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:59 pm

mahalanobis wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 5:07 pm

I cringe when people say "the church said X" or "the church teaches Y".

The church is the entire body of membership. So I lean towards phrases life "our leaders" and "church leaders" to emphasize the institutional/hierarchical nature of my comments... for clarity.

Looks like someone is cringe no matter how we phrase things.

I prefer to say 'our church rulers' or 'our church overlords'

I humbly kneel before those "rulers" or "overlords" if they posses the Keys of the Kingdom

At this point, I'll kneel only to my Savior, the Redeemer of the world.... Anyone else gets a 6 ft apart 'elbow bump' (but I hear ya, of course respect to those in the leader positions of the church...... they get the same huge love from me like I have for my fellow brothers and sisters )

Wonderful!
as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:53 pm

Rumpelstiltskin wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:09 pm In his book, The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil, Elder H. Verlan Andersen wrote, "According to the parables of the “wheat and the tares” and the “ten virgins,” when the 'great division' comes, at least one-half of those who regard themselves as “faithful' members of the Lord’s Church will be classified as members of Satan’s organization." I find it very interesting that he did not apply the parable of the ten virgins to the entire Church but to only "those who regard themselves as 'faithful' members." That narrows it down quite a bit.

It's important to note that Isaiah's writings more than imply that this will not hold true for only the general membership but also for the officers in the church, including senior officers.

I'm writing this because a lot of people will follow up a statement like the one you quoted with something like, "So you better be sure to follow the church president and apostles and do whatever they say so you won't be deceived!"

The deception and division isn't limited to everyone without "keys." The deception and division will affect individuals from top to bottom, inside and out, through and through.

President Nelson's warning was spot on: [it is] not ... possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost.

I know the apostles have stated many times that they too struggle and need prayers and face the same opposition and temptation that all men face. When people think they are immune to what “we” face they really don’t understand that human is human.

Cruiserdude wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 7:11 pm

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 7:09 pm

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:56 pm

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:53 pm

It's important to note that Isaiah's writings more than imply that this will not hold true for only the general membership but also for the officers in the church, including senior officers.

I'm writing this because a lot of people will follow up a statement like the one you quoted with something like, "So you better be sure to follow the church president and apostles and do whatever they say so you won't be deceived!"

The deception and division isn't limited to everyone without "keys." The deception and division will affect individuals from top to bottom, inside and out, through and through.

President Nelson's warning was spot on: [it is] not ... possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost.

When Isaiah speaks about watchman, it could elude that those at the head of the church are even more at fault than those following. Hence calling them “dumb dogs.”

Dumb watchdogs who don't stand and bark at approaching danger. Yes, Isaiah's prophecy rips into church officers, or His covenant people's appointed watchmen (not to be confused with the other watchmen who will actually watch and warn) with a striking tone of warning that ought to influence us to pay more attention to what he's saying.

From Isaiah 56:

Jehovah curses the blind watchmen of his people but exalts his servants who hold fast to his covenant.

"Their watchmen are altogether blind and unaware; all of them are but dumb watchdogs unable to bark, lolling seers fond of slumber. Gluttonous dogs, and insatiable, such indeed are insensible shepherds. They are all diverted to their own way, every one after his own advantage. Come, they say, let us get wine and have our fill of liquor. For tomorrow will be like today, only far better!"

Note that elsewhere Isaiah calls the drunkenness not on alcohol but on delusion, or the misleading of the mind...not that it can't also mean being old-fashioned drunk.

That last part, with tomorrow being like today only better, reminds me of the requests for prayers to return to normal... I've felt gut-punched about that since I first heard it. Normal is Babylon. Normal is wickedness. What we need isn't a tomorrow like today or "better" in the sense of more Babylonian prosperity, but we need actual repentance.

Could you imagine how lost we'd feel in this current time if we didn't have what Isaiah wrote for us?!?!?

People would only be lost if they didn’t have the guiding spirit with them.
Isaiah is wonderful and full of useful stuff, even Christ referenced Isaiah more than anything else. However, the spirit can guide us.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:33 pm Yeah I believe that was especially seen this past year. It reminds me of when Christ taught, “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” It turns my eye to the pride of wealthy church members, especially those in positions of leadership, practicing unrighteousness dominion on occasion. Knowledge of the world will only take us so far. I think often of Joseph Smith as an example, accomplishing miracles with a 3rd grade education.

My wife is convert and is an incredibly selfless, Christlike, humble woman, and she has some amazing insights and wisdom. When she lived in the Gosford area of New South Wales, she was fairly poverty stricken having gone through a divorce. One of the popular and successful women of the ward once lamented that it was terrible that my wife wasn't successful and had to struggle for an income. My wife said, "Well, I guess that Heavenly Father doesn't need to test me with money to see if I'll be faithful." Talk about a show stopper! There were no more words of pseudo-encouragement after that.

greatFearerofGod wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 7:03 pm

Cruiserdude wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 6:59 pm

mahalanobis wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 5:07 pm

HeberC wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 4:58 pm I cringe when I read or hear the phrases, "our leaders" or "church leaders".

I cringe when people say "the church said X" or "the church teaches Y".

The church is the entire body of membership. So I lean towards phrases life "our leaders" and "church leaders" to emphasize the institutional/hierarchical nature of my comments... for clarity.

Looks like someone is cringe no matter how we phrase things.

I prefer to say 'our church rulers' or 'our church overlords'

I humbly kneel before those "rulers" or "overlords" if they posses the Keys of the Kingdom

While I admire humility, which can be described as a "Thy will be done" attitude towards God, His true servants will tell kneelers to please get off their knees and to not treat them like they're God as opposed to treating them like they're fellow servants.