LDS Freedom Forum

Was the flood a global/universal flood?

In Moses 7:50-53, why is Enoch promised that a remnant of Noah’s seed would “be found among all nations”? If Noah and company were the only survivors then not only a remnant would be found, but all people/nations would come from Noah. So either the flood is not universal, or there were many other survivors. Thoughts?

50 And it came to pass that Enoch continued his cry unto the Lord, saying: I ask thee, O Lord, in the name of thine Only Begotten, even Jesus Christ, that thou wilt have mercy upon Noah and his seed, that the earth might never more be covered by the floods.

51 And the Lord could not withhold; and he covenanted with Enoch, and sware unto him with an oath, that he would stay the floods; that he would call upon the children of Noah;

52 And he sent forth an unalterable decree, that a remnant of his seed should always be found among all nations, while the earth should stand;

53 And the Lord said: Blessed is he through whose seed Messiah shall come; for he saith—I am Messiah, the King of Zion, the Rock of Heaven, which is broad as eternity; whoso cometh in at the gate and climbeth up by me shall never fall; wherefore, blessed are they of whom I have spoken, for they shall come forth with songs of everlasting joy.

It's the Earth's Baptism by water, so complete immersion was required.

BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 4:16 pm It's the Earth's Baptism by water, so complete immersion was required.

And many placed on the earth might only be a fraction of an inch deep to create a complete immersion. With torrential rainfall, how could not classify it as a complete immersion.

not possible (at least in the last 1 Million years to be actually immersed as we discuss it in baptism. Maybe sprinkled like a good Catholic baptism. If it happened as implied, within known human history, then it was either just a deluge or could only have been somewhat localized.

ransomme wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 4:12 pm Was the flood a global/universal flood? . . . . .

My current thoughts on this is that it may not have been a single universal flood, but widespread and even world-wide flooding.

There is strong evidence for a massive bolide (very large meteor) impact event that happened circa 3,200 BC or 5,200 yrs BP. It was discovered by Dr. Dallas H. Abbott, of LaMont-Doherty Earth Observatory in 2005 (see: Exodus Lost by S.C. Compton, 2010).

The main evidence for this is a 25 km diameter crater (called the Burkle Crater) that has been found using geophysical methods on the floor of the Indian Ocean. Modeling indicates the size of the meteor would have had to be about 5 km diameter to create the crater it did and at the bottom of 12,500 feet of water. Estimates of the energy are ~ 20,000,000 megatons of force, equivalent to about 1,330,000,000 Hiroshima-style atomic bombs.

They also estimate that several trillion tons of water could have been displaced into the atmosphere, and chevrons of sediment thrown up onto surrounding coastlines indicate a tsunami that was 600 ft high.

What goes up, has to come down . . . not to mention the flooding from such a massive tsunami . . . . though it would dampen as it traveled through the world's oceans.

There are 2-3 ancient calendars that mark a flood event as the start of their new calendric era at roughly this same time, and there are many other physical conditions in ice and sediments that seem to have radically changed around that time, as well.

My own view is that we have to give up on the idea that the earth had to be baptized w/every inch of it covered in water.

Yes. The earth was baptized by complete immersion of water, and in the second coming it will be fully immersed in fire/glory.

Well I am an immanuel velikovsky fan on this issue. The flood was caused by a nearby planet and was mostly localized.

Alexander wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 5:48 pm Yes. The earth was baptized by complete immersion of water, and in the second coming it will be fully immersed in fire/glory.

Tough to achieve. One idea I've heard from someone trying to support this idea is that the rain was so universal and continuous that all the earth was effectively under water at the same time, though the depth may have only been in microns or millmeters.

This idea is what I would regard as a reeaal stretch.

larsenb wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 5:53 pm

Alexander wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 5:48 pm Yes. The earth was baptized by complete immersion of water, and in the second coming it will be fully immersed in fire/glory.

Tough to achieve. One idea I've heard from someone trying to support this idea is that the rain was so universal and continuous that all the earth was effectively under water at the same time, though the depth may have only been in microns or millmeters.

This idea is what I would regard as a reeaal stretch.

Tough to achieve, for the Lord?

NewEliza wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 5:49 pm Well I am an immanuel velikovsky fan on this issue. The flood was caused by a nearby planet and was mostly localized.

But the idea I just presented has a LOT of data to support this bolide event as being very significant, and causing wide-spread flooding, with it even being memorialized in calendric systems.

Of course you're welcome to Velikovsky's speculation . . . . . .

Alexander wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 5:54 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 5:53 pm

Alexander wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 5:48 pm Yes. The earth was baptized by complete immersion of water, and in the second coming it will be fully immersed in fire/glory.

Tough to achieve. One idea I've heard from someone trying to support this idea is that the rain was so universal and continuous that all the earth was effectively under water at the same time, though the depth may have only been in microns or millmeters.

This idea is what I would regard as a reeaal stretch.

Tough to achieve, for the Lord?

I'm more focused on actual evidence . . . not on how the Lord may perform this or that. But the discussion does raise the issue of where the idea that the Lord required the whole earth to be baptized came from. Is it scripturally stated, inferred, or what??

Some of the oldest cuneiform outings have reference to the flood. From Gilgamesh to the writings of some of the other Sumerian kings who claimed to have records from before the flood, and also the ability to translate them. It is a tradition that dates back to a time before it was written language.

I do not believe that it was global. I believe it was local. A climactic event that took place in the region where previously nomadic populations had begun to settle for the first time during the transition from Hunter gatherer societies to Society with divisions of labor and established settlements.

From everything I can see, the tradition came from was probably a climactic flood that wiped out early settlements in Babylon between the Tigris and the Euphrates rivers.

Irving Finkel, cuneiform expert for the British museum has a very good book on the Flood narratives that pre-date the Bible.

So the story of the flood is a record of one of the first tragedies in pre- history. And it was handed down from generation to generation, and like any cataclysm, populations try to find meaning in the distraction. Hence, there were numerous false traditions attached to it by the time Genesis was written.

So Moses, takes the pre-existing flood narrative, they have been handed down over multiple generations, strip set of its false tradition and places it in a monotheistic moral context.

Today, we have so many superstitions and traditions about the flood narrative, we have read into the story our own interpretations, especially in LDS circles where we have a great deal of LDS mythology tied into it, that when we discussed a flood, we don’t actually discuss the most likely real world cataclysm, we discuss the traditions that are attributed to it.

larsenb wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 5:55 pm

NewEliza wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 5:49 pm Well I am an immanuel velikovsky fan on this issue. The flood was caused by a nearby planet and was mostly localized.

But the idea I just presented has a LOT of data to support this bolide event as being very significant, and causing wide-spread flooding, with it even being memorialized in calendric systems.

Of course you're welcome to Velikovsky's speculation . . . . . .

I’m sure water splashed all over.

Have you read his books? They’re pretty evidence packed

The scriptures are very clear that it was a global/universal flood.

It also happened only a few thousand years ago.

totally immersed. everyone not on the boat destroyed.

read this:

Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

and then this:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/21 ... he-oceans/

17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

I read a book on this a month or two ago. One of the most plausible theories I’ve seen. The idea being that the earths magnetic field holds the crust in a relatively static position on the molten iron mantle. Over time It builds up ice on the poles and causes an imbalance. When the earth/sun/solar system passes through a reversed or weak galactic magnet line the earths field collapses. The polar weight shifts to the equator in a matter of 4-8 hours, at the speed of the earth (which is a few thousand miles per hour). Antarctica moves to the equator? Florida moves to the North Pole etc. with this cataclysm comes 1000+ mph winds, the oceans cover the entire face of the land as it moves under it, wooly mammoths are flash frozen with perfectly preserved grass in his stomach, (something we cannot even try to accomplish now) tropical plants are preserved under the ice in Antarctica, etc, etc. More than 99% of all terrestrial life is wiped out. There is evidence of several such floods, on a fairly regular (in geologic terms) basis. There is evidence of many civilizations far more advanced than us who very suddenly and completely vanished leaving only a few shards of evidence that they even existed.

mudflap wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 7:34 pm totally immersed. everyone not on the boat destroyed.

read this:

Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

and then this:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/21 ... he-oceans/

Wow. This is incredible with the scripture
To an extent, I've learned to just accept the scriptural account of our creation and existence, lol. If secular science isn't there yet it's on them to get there, but we're okay believing in it the Biblical way, the way God wanted us to know it and to experience it

bbrown wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 8:29 pm I read a book on this a month or two ago. One of the most plausible theories I’ve seen. The idea being that the earths magnetic field holds the crust in a relatively static position on the molten iron mantle. Over time It builds up ice on the poles and causes an imbalance. When the earth/sun/solar system passes through a reversed or weak galactic magnet line the earths field collapses. The polar weight shifts to the equator in a matter of 4-8 hours, at the speed of the earth (which is a few thousand miles per hour). Antarctica moves to the equator? Florida moves to the North Pole etc. with this cataclysm comes 1000+ mph winds, the oceans cover the entire face of the land as it moves under it, wooly mammoths are flash frozen with perfectly preserved grass in his stomach, (something we cannot even try to accomplish now) tropical plants are preserved under the ice in Antarctica, etc, etc. More than 99% of all terrestrial life is wiped out. There is evidence of several such floods, on a fairly regular (in geologic terms) basis. There is evidence of many civilizations far more advanced than us who very suddenly and completely vanished leaving only a few shards of evidence that they even existed.

Whaaaaattt?! For some reason that all sounds very believable to me, seriously

There's more evidence the flood was regional. What debunks a global flood is the amount of animals and mammals there were on earth at that time - globally - would by far - and I mean by far, exceed the space of a 450 foot long 75 foot wide boat with 3 floors! Keep in mind that THAT would include birds, snakes, and reptiles...

"...both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air."

Some giants survived the flood so either they left the region and survived maybe? Did God keep His promise that ALL flesh would destroyed? Understanding how the word ALL is used is key.

Civilizations in Northern Babylon, Egypt, China, and Africa went undisturbed during that time.

Facts & Fictions Regarding Noah's Flood

https://ensignmessage.com/articles/fact ... s-flood-2/

The Flood of Genesis thus occurred in a period of time in which we have a verifiable history of numerous civilizations existing with no evidence of a catastrophic disruption from a worldwide flood. If there was a worldwide flood then all civilizations and cultures would have been destroyed along with their advancements, governments, inventions, cultural habits, languages, and arts which were peculiar to each civilization.

What history does reveal to us however, is that none of the known civilizations and cultures throughout the world have large gaps or voids in their chronology as a result of being destroyed by a universal flood. It certainly would not be plausible to believe that they were destroyed and then suddenly, within a few years, miraculously reappeared in their original size and strength.

The six oldest civilizations that had an ongoing and well-established culture according to recorded history are: Sumer (Mesopotamia), Egypt, China, Minoan, Indus Valley, and the Holy Land or Phoenicia.

Some of the earliest written records of an advanced civilization are those of the Sumerian civilization in Mesopotamia. Its first dynasty, according to Sumerian King-Lists, dates to about 3350 B.C. Prof. Waddell has done exhaustive research on Sumerian chronicles, seals, King-Lists, and other records which show a continuous, ongoing civilization from 3350 B.C. well through the period of the Flood. In fact, Mesopotamia was undergoing great prosperity and expansion during the period of the Flood under the well-known ruler, Sargon The Great (2300 B.C.). Further growth and expansion continued under his grandson, Naram-Sin (2250 B.C.). By the time of Abraham (1930 B.C.), Mesopotamia was heavily populated and a thriving centre of civilization and culture. These historical facts could never have occurred if its entire civilization had been obliterated by a flood.

Of all ancient civilizations, that of Egypt is the most familiar. Egypt's dynastic history started with the uniting of upper and lower Egypt by King Menes about 3100 B.C. The period of Egyptian history known as the "Old Kingdom," extended from 2800 to 2175 B.C., which covered the third through the tenth dynasties. There was no record of a sudden and complete interruption within this great epoch of Egyptian history by a great deluge. Further, the Step Pyramid, the Great Pyramid, the Sphinx and other Egyptian monuments that were built prior to the Flood would surely have been destroyed by the magnitude of the flood described by creationists.

A reasonably accurate history of China begins around 3000 B.C. Valuable information on this culture has been obtained from the Chinese sacred book known as Shu King. According to the chronology of this text, and verified by archaeological finds, China was undergoing a prosperous period during the Yao Dynasty (between 2400 - 2200 B.C.) with no record of a cataclysmic interruption of its civilization.

https://ensignmessage.com/articles/fact ... s-flood-2/

Facts & Fictions Regarding Noah's Flood

Where does the idea originate that the flood was the earth's baptism? Is that doctrine, lore or a truism that we accept but don't know why?

I personally don’t believe that Noah had the only arc. Too many different people and locally diverse animals. If there was one arc there were many. According to the theory (this book I read was a couple hundred pages long) the cataclysms wiped out 99% of all life but not all. The genesis account is so brief and so vague as hardly say more than that it happened.

The more I read the scriptures, the more I believe them in a literal sense. I've learned over the years that stuff seems fuzzy eventually gets cleared up. If God says he wiped out all life except 8 souls and whatever was on the ark, I believe it, even if I don't understand it. I believed in the entire world flood long before science found a way it could have happened.

Not enough room on the boat? Too many species? you know, the cattledog wasn't a recognized breed of dog until the 1980's, and it's only been around for about 100 years. And if you look at one, it's got enough distinctive characteristics that you cannot mistake it for something else. multiplied by thousands of species all over the world for thousands of years.

I hiked the Grand Canyon rim to rim many years ago. I remember the visitor's center brochures and rangers telling you how it took "millions of years to carve". Then I saw a "crazy guy" theory about how it all could've happened in 3 months through a glacier ice dam burst, and now a lot of geologists agree with the crazy guy.

I'm not saying I know everything, but it's always worked out for me to fit the world into the scriptures, rather than the scriptures into the world. Science will always play catch up to God, not the other way around.

tribrac wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 9:28 pm Where does the idea originate that the flood was the earth's baptism? Is that doctrine, lore or a truism that we accept but don't know why?

Peter.

1 Peter 3
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,
because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

And if you can stomach my heresy in throwing JFS under the bus, i'll quote my post from another thread earlier today:

tl;dr - baptism is commitment to Jesus, who, unlike the watchers whose filth was drowned in the waters, was able to ascend back up in a new creation. They go down and remain there. We, through Jesus, go down, and we come back up again, out of the flood`waters, in refreshed glory, met with hope from a dove. Linked video describes it pretty well.

Spoiler

Unpopular opinion here, but I think Joseph F Smith's vision was either just a dream or a delusion brought on by a faulty understanding of the scriptures. The "spirits in prison from the days of Noah" Peter talks about so obviously has nothing to do with family history and proxy-work for the dead. Its a reference to all of this that gets detailed in Genesis 6. If it was just a generic description of Jesus talking to disembodied sinners, there would be no need for the qualifier "from the days of Noah", there would be no need for a distinction of that particular era from the time leading up before it, or any of the disembodied sinners post-flood, etc. But the qualifier "from the days of Noah" is in fact there for a reason, because all of this is what is being referred to.

"Spirits in prison from the days of Noah", hmm I wonder who that could be referring to. Maybe some context from the other epistle could shed some light on what Peter is getting at -

2 Peter 2
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment

Peter gets "Tartarus" as well as "chains of gloomy darkness" right out of the Book of Enoch, careful to use Tartarus for the sake of his Greek/Gentile audience (the place where the titans are imprisoned) and Jude does the same thing:

Jude
And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day

The biblical worldview is clear. These rebel angels are currently bound in the abyss of Tartarus until they get released unto destruction in the end.

I look forward to when our true religion gets set in order and all these false traditions we've set up over the long years can get rooted out as we get revitalised with true doctrine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TU0n1aFyiC0&feature=youtu.be&t=237

In the Book of Enoch, Enoch serves as an intermediary between the judged watchers and God. God gives Enoch the job to go down and tell them that they're toast.

Seems Peter is using Enoch as a type for Jesus who likewise goes down and testifies to the watchers.

This is what baptism is all about. Unlike the watchers who go down to the watery abyss with no hope for renewal, when we come up out of the waters, we are a new creation, like the dove hovering over Jesus just as the Spirit originally hovered over the face of the waters in Genesis 1 before He made a new world.

mudflap wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 7:34 pm totally immersed. everyone not on the boat destroyed.

read this:

Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

and then this:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/21 ... he-oceans/

This is not a bad description of an event that kicked up several trillion tons of water from the "great deep" into the atmosphere, and then the windows of heaven were opened up to let it come back down.