LDS Freedom Forum

inho wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 5:08 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 5:05 pm Just curious, do you disagree with my short assessment? Your post seems to imply that. If so, how?

Quite the contrary. My response was not intended as a disagreement, but as an agreement.

Ah, thanks. I guess I'm getting too touchy in this thread, w/nobody picking up on the stuff I presented from Compton.

If I get time, today, I'm going to try to present a list of all the evidence Compton put forth for his idea. And I haven't really had the time to do further research and verification of his claims since reading his book.

larsenb wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 5:15 pm

inho wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 5:08 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 5:05 pm Just curious, do you disagree with my short assessment? Your post seems to imply that. If so, how?

Quite the contrary. My response was not intended as a disagreement, but as an agreement.

Ah, thanks. I guess I'm getting too touchy in this thread, w/nobody picking up on the stuff I presented from Compton.

If I get time, today, I'm going to try to present a list of all the evidence Compton put forth for his idea. And I haven't really had the time to do further research and verification of his claims since reading his book.

No way, there is no need for you to get 'touchy' hermano
You're one of the few 'science' guys that I'd trust to discuss something with, without being condescending one of the very few

https://youtu.be/UM82qxxskZE?t=411 Upheaval of the ocean floor.

larsenb wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 5:45 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 4:12 pm Was the flood a global/universal flood? . . . . .

My current thoughts on this is that it may not have been a single universal flood, but widespread and even world-wide flooding.

There is strong evidence for a massive bolide (very large meteor) impact event that happened circa 3,200 BC or 5,200 yrs BP. It was discovered by Dr. Dallas H. Abbott, of LaMont-Doherty Earth Observatory in 2005 (see: Exodus Lost by S.C. Compton, 2010).

The main evidence for this is a 25 km diameter crater (called the Burkle Crater) that has been found using geophysical methods on the floor of the Indian Ocean. Modeling indicates the size of the meteor would have had to be about 5 km diameter to create the crater it did and at the bottom of 12,500 feet of water. Estimates of the energy are ~ 20,000,000 megatons of force, equivalent to about 1,330,000,000 Hiroshima-style atomic bombs.

They also estimate that several trillion tons of water could have been displaced into the atmosphere, and chevrons of sediment thrown up onto surrounding coastlines indicate a tsunami that was 600 ft high.

What goes up, has to come down . . . not to mention the flooding from such a massive tsunami . . . . though it would dampen as it traveled through the world's oceans.

There are 2-3 ancient calendars that mark a flood event as the start of their new calendric era at roughly this same time, and there are many other physical conditions in ice and sediments that seem to have radically changed around that time, as well.

My own view is that we have to give up on the idea that the earth had to be baptized w/every inch of it covered in water.

Here’s the evidence, taken from pages 141-155 of Compton’s Exodus Lost, 2010:

1. Calendar evidence; indicating a flood at ~ 3,200 yrs BC (or 5,200 yrs BP)
a. Babylonian flood-start at 3189 BC as indicated by the Atrahasis Epic of the tribal Ammorites, “easily the most sophisticated of all known ancient Near-Eastern mythological epics – Sumerian, Accadian, Canaanite (Ugaritic), Horite (Hurrian) and Hittite”. They carried this into Babylon. This was the end of one of four of their 600 year ages or epics separated by calamities; with the last one, delineated by the great flood. It’s interesting to note that Noah was 600 years old when the Biblical flood began.
b. Ancient Indian texts indicate a last world flood, also one of four, took place at 3,102 BC as indicated by ancient Indian texts: the Sataptha Brahmana, the Mahabharata and several Puhanas. This ushered in our current Kali Yuga age. Speculation is that these two accounts (Babylonian and Indian) may be related.
c. Mayan/Aztec calendars count time from 3114 BC, also demarcating a flood that ended the fourth of four ages. Evidence indicates the same date in Mixtec and Aztec calendric data, even in the Aztec Calendar stone; and speculation is that the Mayan’s inherited this story from the Olmecs. Taken from: Historia de los Mexicanos por sus Pinturas, ~1530s; Leyenda de los Soles, 1558; and the Codex Rios. Their ages lasted 676 years as opposed to 600 years of the Babylonians, but they also say that 600 years passed between the “birth of the Gods and the creation of the earth”.
d. Egyptian record of a flood. Compton is sparse on this but cites an Egyptian text, The Destruction of Mankind, that cites a period of darkness after a great flood, but provides no footnote.

Commentary on the discrepancies of these dates: The Babylonians only give a start date for the flood: 3189 BC. But both the Indian and Mayan/Aztecan dates signify not the start of the flood, but the start of a new age with a new Sun God appearing after a period of darkness following the flood. A Mayan pot exhibits an interim date of 3149 BC as the time when the old sun god was defeated after the flood, but a new one had not yet been installed (3114 BC).

Similarly, as indicated above, an Egyptian text (The Destruction of Mankind), “similarly describes a
period of time following the flood when the world was in darkness until a god could be found to become the new sun.

One of the characteristics of a large meteor (bolide) hitting the earth is a lot of dust (and in the case of the Burkle crater, immense amounts of water and water vapor) being sent into the atmosphere largely obscuring or dampening sunlight for several years.

2. Physical evidence of a major planetary event happening in the 3,200 yrs BC (or 5,200 yrs BP) time frame. Footnotes for these claims can be found in the book.
a. Major drop in temperature at the ~3,200 yrs BC mark, as indicated by:
1) Oxygen 18 (δO18) ratio measurements in ice caps.
2) δO18 ratios from stalagmites from cave formations
3) Temperature sensitive chemicals in phytoplankton in sediments drilled from sea floor.
4) Species of pollen trapped in ancient sediment layers.
b. Monumental surge in precipitation for this time period, as indicated by:
1) Sudden dramatic surge in methane at 3,200 yrs BC as found in air bubbles trapped in Greenland ice cap. Methane correlates w/amount of wetlands.
2) Pollen profiles indicate surge in precipitation at this time, as well.
3) High precision records of water levels in ancient lakes increase at this time.

“In many of these paleoclimate records, this event is the most extreme increase in precipitation and drop in temperature in the more than 10,000 years since the end of the last ice age” and “was also nearly instantaneous.”

c. Flash freeze events:
1) Discovery in 2003 by the Byrd Polar Research Center of well-preserved but frozen, soft-bodied wetland plants still rooted in ancient earth, at the base of the Quelccaya ice cap situated at 18,600 foot elevation in the Peruvian Andes. RC-14 dates of the plants yielded a date of 3,188 ± 45 yrs BC, precisely the Babylonian date for the great flood (3189 BC).
2) “Unweathered tree still standing with its roots firmly planted in the earth” discovered in Washington State at the base of the receding Cascade Glacier and dated to this same time”.
3) 1991 discovery of Ötzi, a human body revealed by a melting glacier in the Italian Alps, which dated to 3225 ± 125 yrs BC. “The exceptional state of preservation of the Ice-man and of his artifacts requires that he was rapidly entombed at the time of this death and remained so until he was discovered”. “Thus, the Iceman reveals that at about 5,300-5,050 cal yr BP, a rapid climatic change took place producing a persistent snow cover on previously deglaciated areas . . . . This deterioration in climate marks the beginning of Neoglaciation in the Alps, which induced a glacier expansion.”
4) Entire town found buried by a mudslide in the Czech Republic at this exact time. Excavation revealed a ground gradient so gradual that it would have taken extreme precipitation to mobilize the earth.
d. Volcanic-like effects also induced by large meteors:
1) “Dust-veil” events: largest ever recorded according to tree rings, began in 3,190 yr BC range. “In some places, including Mesoamerica, vast forests completely died. In England, the oldest known trees of two regional oak chronologies all began their lives at this time”.
2) Primary way dust-veil events affect climate is through the release of sulfur into the stratosphere, where it combines w/water to produce sulfuric acid. Largest spike in acid levels found in the Greenland ice sheet in at least the last 9,000 years occurred in 3150 ± 90 yrs BC, but there are no correlated volcanic eruptions associated with this spike.
3) Largest sulfate spike in the Greenland ice sheet began ~3,200 yrs BC. Much larger than sulfate spikes associated w/known volcanic eruptions.
4) In 2005, a new technique (combining synchrotron radiation, XRAY microfluorescence and absorption spectroscopy) analyzed bands in Alpine stalagmites, and found a band containing highly concentrated sulfur dated at 3150 ± 130 yrs BC.

Commentary on the sulfur/sulfuric/sulfuric acid concentrations at this date and time: the fact that the intense sulfur is found in the ice cap is indicative of atmospheric sulfur and not a local anomaly; and the amount is far greater than that produced by any known volcanoes. The likely source is a very large meteor, where one “300 m across contains five times as much sulfur as the entire modern (well-polluted) atmosphere”. So the Burkle meteor, at 25 km across, could contains 8 times as much as this.

e. Chevrons consisting of sediments thrown up from deep ocean floor on coastlines surrounding location of the Burkle Crater.
1) Miles long and more than 100 m tall, some covering an area as large as Manhattan. It would take a tsunami 600 ft tall to produce them.
2) Dee Breger analzed samples of chevron sediment in October, 2006, using “a scanning electron microscope (SEM) and found deep-ocean microfossils (benthic foraminifera) that had been splashed with molten iron, nickel and chrome in proportions consistent with a chondritic meteor”.

So, my own view is that there is high probability that the tsunami/atmospheric disruption, to include massive rain fall, created by the Burkle meteor is the event happening circa 3,200 yrs BC that triggered the great Noahic flood of the Bible. Many times on this forum, people have opened threads on this subject or it has been a question raised in related threads, where they ask what is the real physical evidence for the great flood of Noah. Here it is, imsho, though I’m not sure how many here would agree.

There is evidence of a meteor impact about 12k years ago that struck the Canadian ice sheet. The strike is theorized to have vaporized the ice sheet causing massive flooding and the vapor would have taken weeks of raining to clear it from the atmosphere. (40 days/40 nights anyone??)

Early article in 2007
https://www.livescience.com/7283-catast ... easts.html

And supported in 2019
https://www.space.com/17676-comet-crash-ice-age.html

What I think is that Adam to Noah lived on the American continents and this was the flood that wiped them out. Noah was then booted to Asia/Middle East/Africa and life went on. Of course this doesn’t fit the 6k years narrative, but it’s an interesting theory that fits the mass flood narrative.

This meteor impact theory has some very interesting geological evidence - including raising the sea level around the world by hundreds of feet in a very short time (in just a few minutes or hours - I can’t remember exactly). I wish I could remember what it was called, but I have forgotten (There was an excellent wiki article about it that explained it in ways even I could understand, but I couldn’t find it again before I lost interest in the search). They theorize that this impact event triggered the Younger Dryas cooling period.

Havenseeker wrote: ↑March 21st, 2021, 8:11 pm There is evidence of a meteor impact about 12k years ago that struck the Canadian ice sheet. The strike is theorized to have vaporized the ice sheet causing massive flooding and the vapor would have taken weeks of raining to clear it from the atmosphere. (40 days/40 nights anyone??)

Early article in 2007
https://www.livescience.com/7283-catast ... easts.html

And supported in 2019
https://www.space.com/17676-comet-crash-ice-age.html

What I think is that Adam to Noah lived on the American continents and this was the flood that wiped them out. Noah was then booted to Asia/Middle East/Africa and life went on. Of course this doesn’t fit the 6k years narrative, but it’s an interesting theory that fits the mass flood narrative.

This meteor impact theory has some very interesting geological evidence - including raising the sea level around the world by hundreds of feet in a very short time (in just a few minutes or hours - I can’t remember exactly). I wish I could remember what it was called, but I have forgotten (There was an excellent wiki article about it that explained it in ways even I could understand, but I couldn’t find it again before I lost interest in the search). They theorize that this impact event triggered the Younger Dryas cooling period.

Right. This has been around a while and as the title suggests, it is suspected that this event played a big role in the demise of the Pleistocene mega fauna. Also, the idea that it triggered the late Pleistocene Younger Dryas cooling period , is very much in keeping with the cooling/freezing that followed the Burkle meteor impact that took place about 5,200 yrs BP and is very well coordinated with accounts of the flood in ancient histories and calendars, both in the Old and the New worlds.

Scientists of the world: Universal flood? Impossible!

God: Hold my beer!

Dave62 wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2021, 7:05 am Scientists of the world: Universal flood? Impossible!

God: Hold my beer!

Scientists of the world: What do you mean 'EVERYTHING will burn'?.... Impossible!

God: ...... I tried warning you......

Cruiserdude wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2021, 7:12 am

Dave62 wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2021, 7:05 am Scientists of the world: Universal flood? Impossible!

God: Hold my beer!

Scientists of the world: What do you mean 'EVERYTHING will burn'?.... Impossible!

God: ...... I tried warning you......

A virgin gives birth
Peter walks on water, twice
Elijah calls fire down from heaven
Moses parts the Red Sea
A talking donkey!!!
Joshua wins a battle with aid of a stationary Earth
Philip teleports.
Enoch moves mountains, defies armies.

And I haven't even started on what God can do in His spare time.

And I'm sure the science guys here on the forum don't question the God declared way of it, moreso they are just stating that we only have physical evidence of something else that isn't quite the God way.
I just didn't want our jest misinterpreted

Cruiserdude wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2021, 7:30 am And I'm sure the science guys here on the forum don't question the God declared way of it, moreso they are just stating that we only have physical evidence of something else that isn't quite the God way.
I just didn't want our jest misinterpreted

I get it. But if God can destroy the world by fire, why couldn't He trigger world-wide flooding coupled w/decades of much colder weather, via a meteor. I'm just not inclined to set limits on how God may decide to accomplish something.

And the apparent connection between consciousness and quantum collapse phenomenon might suggests a scale of ascending effect of consciousness (i.e., intelligence/faith/awareness) on matter, where no intervening physical mediation is apparent to our limited awareness . . . . for those who can make the right connection . . . .

larsenb wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 12:43 am

Cruiserdude wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2021, 7:30 am And I'm sure the science guys here on the forum don't question the God declared way of it, moreso they are just stating that we only have physical evidence of something else that isn't quite the God way.
I just didn't want our jest misinterpreted

I get it. But if God can destroy the world by fire, why couldn't He trigger world-wide flooding coupled w/decades of much colder weather, via a meteor. I'm just not inclined to set limits on how God may decide to accomplish something.

And the apparent connection between consciousness and quantum collapse phenomenon might suggests a scale of ascending effect of consciousness (i.e., intelligence/faith/awareness) on matter, where no intervening physical mediation is apparent to our limited awareness . . . . for those who can make the right connection . . . .

He could. I don't limit Him.

I believe the flood was worldwide, but that there were survivors in addition to Noah's family.

larsenb wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 4:11 pm

mudflap wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 7:50 am

larsenb wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 5:45 pm My own view is that we have to give up on the idea that the earth had to be baptized w/every inch of it covered in water.

I respectfully disagree.

Genesis 7:19
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

Genesis 8:9
9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

This apocryphal one is interesting - not only were all the fountains "broken up", but the "whole earth" shook and "moved violently", along with lightning and thunder - maybe a meteor or something - certainly possible - read the whole chapter - very interesting - and very consistent with Genesis:

Jasher 6:11
11 And on that day, the Lord caused the whole earth to shake, and the sun darkened, and the foundations of the world raged, and the whole earth was moved violently, and the lightning flashed, and the thunder roared, and all the fountains in the earth were broken up, such as was not known to the inhabitants before; and God did this mighty act, in order to terrify the sons of men, that there might be no more evil upon earth.

Jasher 6:2 And thou shalt go and seat thyself by the doors of the ark, and all the beasts, the animals, and the fowls, shall assemble and place themselves before thee, and such of them as shall come and crouch before thee, shalt thou take and deliver into the hands of thy sons, who shall bring them to the ark, and all that will stand before thee thou shalt leave.

some animals didn't make it. My dog crouches when I get ready to throw a stick (he's a heeler). Not because he's cowering - he's loading his spring . I guess he would've been picked.

But the idea that God could not flood the whole earth or that the Bible is "mistaken" or that it was "only regional" or that "not everyone died" just seems silly to me in light of the consistency of the scriptures.

Two things I have no doubts about:

1. The whole earth was flooded - every mountain, just as it says.
2. The whole earth will be burned - down to the last blade of grass.

Isn't it true that Noah sent out his dove a second time, and it came back with an olive twig with leaves on it? The problem with that story and a universal coverage of the earth in water, is that if you drown vegetation, it dies w/in a week or so. So how is it that while still ensconsed in his boat surrounded by water, Noah was finally able discover living vegetation thanks to his dove?

O ye of little faith, lol.

You do know the waters started receding when the rain stopped even though the boat was still floating around, right?

We know for certain that plants and seeds did survive the Flood; however, we don’t know exactly all the ways they survived. Not knowing how each survived does not mean they did not or could not.

~ https://answersingenesis.org/the-flood/ ... the-flood/

Many plants can survive a year of submersion.

Don't be so quick to dismiss statements from the scriptures. There's a hundred ways this could have happened and still be consistent with the scriptures - God could have willed it. It could have been floating with other uprooted debris, and then when it came to rest on a hill somewhere, it could have started sprouting new leaves - this is how they propagate olive trees anyway (Jacob 5, anyone?).

Years ago, in a discrete mathematics course I took, there was a lightbulb moment:

Is the statement "All rabbits hop" true? At face value it looks like it would be true. Hopping is a feature characteristic of rabbits, after all. But if we investigate the question a little more thoroughly, we see that it's possible that someone on the planet has probably encountered a rabbit that didn't hop - maybe it has broken legs. Having broken legs doesn't mean it isn't a rabbit - it just means it doesn't hop. But in a larger sense, just one rabbit with broken legs invalidates the entire original statement that "All rabbits hop."

Similarly, assuming that...

if you drown vegetation, it dies w/in a week or so.

...is true in all cases leads you to draw all sorts of potentially false conclusions. Just be careful with assumptions, and be open to the possibility that you might not know or understand everything, is all I'm saying.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 2:10 am I believe the flood was worldwide, but that there were survivors in addition to Noah's family.

I think the Bible is pretty clear on this:

Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

The giants (corrupted bloodlines) after the flood most likely came back through the wife of Ham.

this article delves into it a bit (but I don't agree with everything in it): https://beginningandend.com/bloodlines- ... cal-study/

mudflap wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 8:04 am

larsenb wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 4:11 pm

mudflap wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 7:50 am

larsenb wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 5:45 pm My own view is that we have to give up on the idea that the earth had to be baptized w/every inch of it covered in water.

I respectfully disagree.

Genesis 7:19
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

Genesis 8:9
9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

This apocryphal one is interesting - not only were all the fountains "broken up", but the "whole earth" shook and "moved violently", along with lightning and thunder - maybe a meteor or something - certainly possible - read the whole chapter - very interesting - and very consistent with Genesis:

Jasher 6:11
11 And on that day, the Lord caused the whole earth to shake, and the sun darkened, and the foundations of the world raged, and the whole earth was moved violently, and the lightning flashed, and the thunder roared, and all the fountains in the earth were broken up, such as was not known to the inhabitants before; and God did this mighty act, in order to terrify the sons of men, that there might be no more evil upon earth.

Jasher 6:2 And thou shalt go and seat thyself by the doors of the ark, and all the beasts, the animals, and the fowls, shall assemble and place themselves before thee, and such of them as shall come and crouch before thee, shalt thou take and deliver into the hands of thy sons, who shall bring them to the ark, and all that will stand before thee thou shalt leave.

some animals didn't make it. My dog crouches when I get ready to throw a stick (he's a heeler). Not because he's cowering - he's loading his spring . I guess he would've been picked.

But the idea that God could not flood the whole earth or that the Bible is "mistaken" or that it was "only regional" or that "not everyone died" just seems silly to me in light of the consistency of the scriptures.

Two things I have no doubts about:

1. The whole earth was flooded - every mountain, just as it says.
2. The whole earth will be burned - down to the last blade of grass.

Isn't it true that Noah sent out his dove a second time, and it came back with an olive twig with leaves on it? The problem with that story and a universal coverage of the earth in water, is that if you drown vegetation, it dies w/in a week or so. So how is it that while still ensconsed in his boat surrounded by water, Noah was finally able discover living vegetation thanks to his dove?

O ye of little faith, lol.

You do know the waters started receding when the rain stopped even though the boat was still floating around, right?

We know for certain that plants and seeds did survive the Flood; however, we don’t know exactly all the ways they survived. Not knowing how each survived does not mean they did not or could not.

~ https://answersingenesis.org/the-flood/ ... the-flood/

Many plants can survive a year of submersion.

Don't be so quick to dismiss statements from the scriptures. There's a hundred ways this could have happened and still be consistent with the scriptures - God could have willed it. It could have been floating with other uprooted debris, and then when it came to rest on a hill somewhere, it could have started sprouting new leaves - this is how they propagate olive trees anyway (Jacob 5, anyone?).

Years ago, in a discrete mathematics course I took, there was a lightbulb moment:

Is the statement "All rabbits hop" true? At face value it looks like it would be true. Hopping is a feature characteristic of rabbits, after all. But if we investigate the question a little more thoroughly, we see that it's possible that someone on the planet has probably encountered a rabbit that didn't hop - maybe it has broken legs. Having broken legs doesn't mean it isn't a rabbit - it just means it doesn't hop. But in a larger sense, just one rabbit with broken legs invalidates the entire original statement that "All rabbits hop."

Similarly, assuming that...

if you drown vegetation, it dies w/in a week or so.

...is true in all cases leads you to draw all sorts of potentially false conclusions. Just be careful with assumptions, and be open to the possibility that you might not know or understand everything, is all I'm saying.

I'm actually open to most anything; especially if the proposition has some probability. But I certainly have problems w/non-tautological black-and-white statements. You don't seem to read me very well.

In terms of probability, for Noah to have a viable olive-leaf handed to him by the dove, it makes more sense that it came from an existing viable olive tree that had not been drowned for 40 days or more. No, I don't think Jacob and or Zenos' metaphor said anything about the olive branches floating to a new location and then planting themselves, despite the fact that the metaphor pertained to Lehi's overseas voyage. Nor do I see much probability of an olive or olive seed floating to a new location, getting miraculously planted, let alone sprouting and growing new leaves in the Noahic flood time-frame.

Of course, it would be an interesting study to see what kinds of "plants (not counting aquatic or semi-aquatic) or can survive a year of submergence". Got any studies you can cite for this assertion? I was taking off on the drowning of Thistle in Spanish Fork Canyon in 1983. I drove through the area after the water drained and remember seeing all sorts of dead-as-a door-nail trees standing around there.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 2:10 am I believe the flood was worldwide, but that there were survivors in addition to Noah's family.

But if there were survivors it would seem you have to qualify your definition of the flood being world-wide. I.e., did it cover everything, even high mountains, or not? If not, and then it makes sense that there could have been survivors left on high ground, or who at least could weather whatever flooding they had in their area w/pre-existing small boats . . . or maybe boats they were also warned to build before the flood, etc., etc.

Which also raises the question regarding how much high ground was left, and how interconnected it was. And if you look at a spectrum of the possibilities, you may get to a point, on the lower level, where you could call the phenomenon: world-wide flooding, instead of a world-wide flood.

larsenb wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 3:09 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 2:10 am I believe the flood was worldwide, but that there were survivors in addition to Noah's family.

But if there were survivors it would seem you have to qualify your definition of the flood being world-wide. I.e., did it cover everything, even high mountains, or not? If not, and then it makes sense that there could have been survivors left on high ground, or who at last could weather whatever flooding they had in their area w/pre-existing small boats . . . or maybe boats they were also warned to build before the flood, etc., etc.

Which also raises the question regarding how much high ground was left, and how interconnected it was. And if you look at a spectrum of the possibilities, you may get to a point, on the lower level, where you could call the phenomenon: world-wide flooding, instead of a world-wide flood.

We only have the story of Noah and his family.
There may have been other stories. The monotheistic world knows of the Tower of Babel incident, but how many know that a small group of people were led away to a new land and became the Jaredites?
When the Jews sat down by the rivers of Babylon and lamented the loss of their land, little did they know that a small band led by a man named Lehi had been led to a new land of promise.

So, given what we know something of the way God does things, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that there were others, unknown to Noah and his descendants, who also built boats and escaped the flood.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 3:29 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 3:09 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 2:10 am I believe the flood was worldwide, but that there were survivors in addition to Noah's family.

But if there were survivors it would seem you have to qualify your definition of the flood being world-wide. I.e., did it cover everything, even high mountains, or not? If not, and then it makes sense that there could have been survivors left on high ground, or who at last could weather whatever flooding they had in their area w/pre-existing small boats . . . or maybe boats they were also warned to build before the flood, etc., etc.

Which also raises the question regarding how much high ground was left, and how interconnected it was. And if you look at a spectrum of the possibilities, you may get to a point, on the lower level, where you could call the phenomenon: world-wide flooding, instead of a world-wide flood.

We only have the story of Noah and his family.
There may have been other stories. The monotheistic world knows of the Tower of Babel incident, but how many know that a small group of people were led away to a new land and became the Jaredites?
When the Jews sat down by the rivers of Babylon and lamented the loss of their land, little did they know that a small band led by a man named Lehi had been led to a new land of promise.

So, given what we know something of the way God does things, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that there were others, unknown to Noah and his descendants, who also built boats and escaped the flood.

Exactly! But why dismiss all the ancient accounts, to include at least 3 calendars memorializing a massive flood event, which in turn, are bolstered by actual physical, measurable data supporting them, as at least indicating the possibility that there were other survivors who experienced the same flood, but who may not have resorted to taking to boats?

But yes, we don't know from the Bible a lot of major things dealing with God's interactions with men. Same token, Biblical language could be couched using language and terms pertaining to Noah's local group. For all he knew, the flood he and his family experienced could have been universal, killing everything they were aware of in their particular locale . . . . and that is how it was written up.

I'm just speculating; but for me, I lean toward what I just said in my last paragraph.

larsenb wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 3:37 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 3:29 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 3:09 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 2:10 am I believe the flood was worldwide, but that there were survivors in addition to Noah's family.

But if there were survivors it would seem you have to qualify your definition of the flood being world-wide. I.e., did it cover everything, even high mountains, or not? If not, and then it makes sense that there could have been survivors left on high ground, or who at last could weather whatever flooding they had in their area w/pre-existing small boats . . . or maybe boats they were also warned to build before the flood, etc., etc.

Which also raises the question regarding how much high ground was left, and how interconnected it was. And if you look at a spectrum of the possibilities, you may get to a point, on the lower level, where you could call the phenomenon: world-wide flooding, instead of a world-wide flood.

We only have the story of Noah and his family.
There may have been other stories. The monotheistic world knows of the Tower of Babel incident, but how many know that a small group of people were led away to a new land and became the Jaredites?
When the Jews sat down by the rivers of Babylon and lamented the loss of their land, little did they know that a small band led by a man named Lehi had been led to a new land of promise.

So, given what we know something of the way God does things, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that there were others, unknown to Noah and his descendants, who also built boats and escaped the flood.

Exactly! But why dismiss all the ancient accounts, to include at least 3 calendars memorializing a massive flood event, which in turn, are bolstered by actual physical, measurable data supporting them, as at least indicating the possibility that there were other survivors who experienced the same flood, but who may not have resorted to taking to boats?

But yes, we don't know from the Bible a lot of major things dealing with God's interactions with men. Same token, Biblical language could be couched using language and terms pertaining to Noah's local group. For all he knew, the flood he and his family experienced could have been universal, killing everything they were aware of in their particular locale . . . . and that is how it was written up.

I'm just speculating; but for me, I lean toward what I just said in my last paragraph.

A limited flood would not have required an ark and all of those animals. I believe it was worldwide and that it covered everything for a time. Some believe it was the baptism of the Earth.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 3:45 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 3:37 pm . . . . . Exactly! But why dismiss all the ancient accounts, to include at least 3 calendars memorializing a massive flood event, which in turn, are bolstered by actual physical, measurable data supporting them, as at least indicating the possibility that there were other survivors who experienced the same flood, but who may not have resorted to taking to boats?

But yes, we don't know from the Bible a lot of major things dealing with God's interactions with men. Same token, Biblical language could be couched using language and terms pertaining to Noah's local group. For all he knew, the flood he and his family experienced could have been universal, killing everything they were aware of in their particular locale . . . . and that is how it was written up.

I'm just speculating; but for me, I lean toward what I just said in my last paragraph.

A limited flood would not have required an ark and all of those animals. I believe it was worldwide and that it covered everything for a time. Some believe it was the baptism of the Earth.

Depends what you mean by "limited'. When I'm talking about world-wide flooding, there could have been large areas totally inundated. I'll go w/the potential represented by actual ancient accounts outside of the Bible, again, bolstered by an actual culprit (the very large, Burkle meteor).

larsenb wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 3:00 pm

mudflap wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 8:04 am

larsenb wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 4:11 pm

mudflap wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 7:50 am

I respectfully disagree.




This apocryphal one is interesting - not only were all the fountains "broken up", but the "whole earth" shook and "moved violently", along with lightning and thunder - maybe a meteor or something - certainly possible - read the whole chapter - very interesting - and very consistent with Genesis:





some animals didn't make it. My dog crouches when I get ready to throw a stick (he's a heeler). Not because he's cowering - he's loading his spring . I guess he would've been picked.

But the idea that God could not flood the whole earth or that the Bible is "mistaken" or that it was "only regional" or that "not everyone died" just seems silly to me in light of the consistency of the scriptures.

Two things I have no doubts about:

1. The whole earth was flooded - every mountain, just as it says.
2. The whole earth will be burned - down to the last blade of grass.

Isn't it true that Noah sent out his dove a second time, and it came back with an olive twig with leaves on it? The problem with that story and a universal coverage of the earth in water, is that if you drown vegetation, it dies w/in a week or so. So how is it that while still ensconsed in his boat surrounded by water, Noah was finally able discover living vegetation thanks to his dove?

O ye of little faith, lol.

You do know the waters started receding when the rain stopped even though the boat was still floating around, right?

We know for certain that plants and seeds did survive the Flood; however, we don’t know exactly all the ways they survived. Not knowing how each survived does not mean they did not or could not.

~ https://answersingenesis.org/the-flood/ ... the-flood/

Many plants can survive a year of submersion.

Don't be so quick to dismiss statements from the scriptures. There's a hundred ways this could have happened and still be consistent with the scriptures - God could have willed it. It could have been floating with other uprooted debris, and then when it came to rest on a hill somewhere, it could have started sprouting new leaves - this is how they propagate olive trees anyway (Jacob 5, anyone?).

Years ago, in a discrete mathematics course I took, there was a lightbulb moment:

Is the statement "All rabbits hop" true? At face value it looks like it would be true. Hopping is a feature characteristic of rabbits, after all. But if we investigate the question a little more thoroughly, we see that it's possible that someone on the planet has probably encountered a rabbit that didn't hop - maybe it has broken legs. Having broken legs doesn't mean it isn't a rabbit - it just means it doesn't hop. But in a larger sense, just one rabbit with broken legs invalidates the entire original statement that "All rabbits hop."

Similarly, assuming that...

if you drown vegetation, it dies w/in a week or so.

...is true in all cases leads you to draw all sorts of potentially false conclusions. Just be careful with assumptions, and be open to the possibility that you might not know or understand everything, is all I'm saying.

I'm actually open to most anything; especially if the proposition has some probability. But I certainly have problems w/non-tautological black-and-white statements. You don't seem to read me very well.

In terms of probability, for Noah to have a viable olive-leaf handed to him by the dove, it makes more sense that it came from an existing viable olive tree that had not been drowned for 40 days or more. No, I don't think Jacob and or Zenos' metaphor said anything about the olive branches floating to a new location and then planting themselves, despite the fact that the metaphor pertained to Lehi's overseas voyage. Nor do I see much probability of an olive or olive seed floating to a new location, getting miraculously planted, let alone sprouting and growing new leaves in the Noahic flood time-frame.

Of course, it would be an interesting study to see what kinds of "plants (not counting aquatic or semi-aquatic) or can survive a year of submergence". Got any studies you can cite for this assertion? I was taking off on the drowning of Thistle in Spanish Fork Canyon in 1983. I drove through the area after the water drained and remember seeing all sorts of dead-as-a door-nail trees standing around there.

lol. I guess I don't read you very well. I try to take people at face value. Not everyone has the ability to "just believe". I get it. It can be hard. I feel for you, if that is you. Hopefully, there's a way to "put things on a shelf" in your mind until it is revealed to you how it all went down. It hasn't been revealed to me in some spectacular way - I've studied this for years, and have had little things - connections to some geological thing I studied, or some biological finding in a paper somewhere - just little things like that whispered to me as I've studied it to the point I'm willing to accept the story just as it is told. And actually, I would be surprised at this point if God suddenly said, "Nah, just kidding - it was a metaphor. Get it?" No. I'm pretty comfortable with the entire earth being submerged (not just "flooded") - every inch, all at the same time. And I'm also comfortable with 8 human souls as the only survivors.

The article I posted earlier about how plants might have survived the flood has a lot of food for thought. You may want to (finally?) read it. One thing it states is that the longesttime plants would have been completely submerged was 9 months, but it was probably more like 6 or 7 months.

Thistle lake isn't a good example - the slide happened in April 1983, and they weren't able to fully get the lake drained until over a year later. I remember not being able to go that way to the Manti Pageant that year. It wasn't till the next year that we went through what was left of Thistle. My dad pulled over, and we got out and looked. It is unbelievable.

I was just watching a video posted in the forum over in the flat Earth thread (I was curious). Before watching the video I would say it would be impossible for the Earth to be completely submerged if it were spherical (obviously not for God). The amount of water the Earth would have to have is many multiple times the amount it currently has just to barely cover Mt Everest. If the Earth were flat, well it would be like my flower bed when a decent rain comes. IMO, a worldwide flood makes more sense in a flat Earth model than a round Earth. I just don't know where the container's edge would be to hold the water in until it was absorbed. Dome theory?

Am I becoming a flat earther? The science is still out for me, but I acknowledge it might be possible.

Claymore

The deeper reality that it signifies, and the context around it and how this all fits in throughout the scriptures, and the journey of salvation down through the timeline is so much more interesting than going on and on about the telestial mechanics of it all, uggh, how boring I says, lol.

Peter's description of the symbolism of how the Flood connects with Baptism has been a discovery that's for real blown my mind these past few days. And how it relates with the sacrament, totally upgrades my understanding on the subjects, fascinating, still an ongoing process, haven't been able to fully ruminate in it yet.

mudflap wrote: ↑March 24th, 2021, 8:44 pm . . . . . lol. I guess I don't read you very well. I try to take people at face value. Not everyone has the ability to "just believe". I get it. It can be hard. I feel for you, if that is you. Hopefully, there's a way to "put things on a shelf" in your mind until it is revealed to you how it all went down. It hasn't been revealed to me in some spectacular way - I've studied this for years, and have had little things - connections to some geological thing I studied, or some biological finding in a paper somewhere - just little things like that whispered to me as I've studied it to the point I'm willing to accept the story just as it is told. And actually, I would be surprised at this point if God suddenly said, "Nah, just kidding - it was a metaphor. Get it?" No. I'm pretty comfortable with the entire earth being submerged (not just "flooded") - every inch, all at the same time. And I'm also comfortable with 8 human souls as the only survivors.

The article I posted earlier about how plants might have survived the flood has a lot of food for thought. You may want to (finally?) read it. One thing it states is that the longesttime plants would have been completely submerged was 9 months, but it was probably more like 6 or 7 months.

Thistle lake isn't a good example - the slide happened in April 1983, and they weren't able to fully get the lake drained until over a year later. I remember not being able to go that way to the Manti Pageant that year. It wasn't till the next year that we went through what was left of Thistle. My dad pulled over, and we got out and looked. It is unbelievable.

I'm strongly evidence based. My science background. What this means, is if there is strong evidence or reasons why a particular statement in scripture may not be fully understood and seems to contradict the 'evidence', I can't just ignore the evidence or reasons. I'm more apt to put the scripture in question on the shelf, rather than the other way around.

Could you link to your post about plants surviving submerged? That would be helpful.

The train tunnel in Thistle area was completed July 1983; they started draining the lake a few months after August of 1983, according to a statement I found. And another statement said they had opened the road by sometime in December. I came through Spanish Fork in '82 or sometime in '83, but also came through in March '84; both times coming from Tulsa, OK, so I may be remembering passing by the dead standing trees in Thistle on my last pass-through.