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Maybe you can synopsize his evidence for a great flood.NewEliza wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 6:11 pmI’m sure water splashed all over.
Have you read his books? They’re pretty evidence packed
Notice how two of these civilizations start after the estimated 3,200 BC date for the massive meteor event in the Indian Ocean. And the Sumerian king list starts close to this time . . . . and perhaps was the civilization Noah was embedded in so may have bridged the flood date.harp master wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 8:57 pm
Some of the earliest written records of an advanced civilization are those of the Sumerian civilization in Mesopotamia. Its first dynasty, according to Sumerian King-Lists, dates to about 3350 B.C. Prof. Waddell has done exhaustive research on Sumerian chronicles, seals, King-Lists, and other records which show a continuous, ongoing civilization from 3350 B.C. well through the period of the Flood. . . . ..
Of all ancient civilizations, that of Egypt is the most familiar. Egypt's dynastic history started with the uniting of upper and lower Egypt by King Menes about 3100 B.C. . . . . . . .
A reasonably accurate history of China begins around 3000 B.C. Valuable information on this culture has been obtained from the Chinese sacred . . . . . .
Whoever that guy was, he seems to be confabulating well documented breaks in ice dam lakes that created the eastern Washington Channeled Scablands throughout the Pleistocene.mudflap wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 9:52 pm . . . . .
I hiked the Grand Canyon rim to rim many years ago. I remember the visitor's center brochures and rangers telling you how it took "millions of years to carve". Then I saw a "crazy guy" theory about how it all could've happened in 3 months through a glacier ice dam burst, and now a lot of geologists agree with the crazy guy. . . . . .
larsenb wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 1:18 amWhoever that guy was, he seems to be confabulating well documented breaks in ice dam lakes that created the eastern Washington Channeled Scablands throughout the Pleistocene.mudflap wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 9:52 pm . . . . .
I hiked the Grand Canyon rim to rim many years ago. I remember the visitor's center brochures and rangers telling you how it took "millions of years to carve". Then I saw a "crazy guy" theory about how it all could've happened in 3 months through a glacier ice dam burst, and now a lot of geologists agree with the crazy guy. . . . . .
He would have had to of made it happen for it to be world-wide. Regional floods are exactly what would be found as they occur naturally. However, if we believe fish and bread can be multiplied than why wouldn’t we believe in things like the flood? Science will never even attempt to explain the evidence of fish and bread multiplying on demand in baskets.Mindfields wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 7:15 am While both science and religion are in pursuit of the truth; truth is independent of both science and religion. Religion claims there was a world wide flood. Science claims there's evidence for regional floods and there is no scientific evidence of a world wide flood. So unless God literally magicked the world wide flood and then hid the evidence of a world wide flood, there wasn't one. The flood narrative contained in Genesis is fraught with inconsistences and impossibilities. Once again unless God magicked the entire event it didn't happen.
I respectfully disagree.
Genesis 7:19
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
This apocryphal one is interesting - not only were all the fountains "broken up", but the "whole earth" shook and "moved violently", along with lightning and thunder - maybe a meteor or something - certainly possible - read the whole chapter - very interesting - and very consistent with Genesis:Genesis 8:9
9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.
Jasher 6:11
11 And on that day, the Lord caused the whole earth to shake, and the sun darkened, and the foundations of the world raged, and the whole earth was moved violently, and the lightning flashed, and the thunder roared, and all the fountains in the earth were broken up, such as was not known to the inhabitants before; and God did this mighty act, in order to terrify the sons of men, that there might be no more evil upon earth.
some animals didn't make it. My dog crouches when I get ready to throw a stick (he's a heeler). Not because he's cowering - he's loading his springJasher 6:2 And thou shalt go and seat thyself by the doors of the ark, and all the beasts, the animals, and the fowls, shall assemble and place themselves before thee, and such of them as shall come and crouch before thee, shalt thou take and deliver into the hands of thy sons, who shall bring them to the ark, and all that will stand before thee thou shalt leave.
. I guess he would've been picked. That may do it,cachemagic wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 4:23 pmAnd many placed on the earth might only be a fraction of an inch deep to create a complete immersion. With torrential rainfall, how could not classify it as a complete immersion.BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 4:16 pm It's the Earth's Baptism by water, so complete immersion was required.
Sure. His theory basically is that earth used to be very near to Saturn, and due to Jupiter approaching saturn and rocking it’s orbit, Saturn spun away and there were a series of events that left a watery tail behind that became its rings. Earth was splashed with that water.larsenb wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 1:02 amMaybe you can synopsize his evidence for a great flood.NewEliza wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 6:11 pmI’m sure water splashed all over.
Have you read his books? They’re pretty evidence packed
"The tradition of a universal deluge is told by all ancient civilizations, and also by races that never reached the ability to express themselves in the written symbols of a language. It is found all over the world, on all continents, on the islands of the Pacific and Atlantic, everywhere. Usually it is explained as a local experience carried from race to race by word of mouth. The work of collating such material has repeatedly been done, and it would only fatigue the reader were I to repeat these stories as told in all parts of the world, even in places never visited by missionaries." -Sir J.G. Frazer, Folk-lore in the Old Testament (London, 1891);"In 1984, William R. Corliss stated that a bone bed had been discovered south of Tampa, Florida, with paleontologists declaring it one of the United States' richest fossil deposits. This bone bed yielded bones of more than 70 species of animals, birds and aquatic creatures. About 80% of the bones belong to plains animals, such as camels, horses, mammoths, etc. Bears, wolves, large cats and a bird with an estimated 30-foot wingspan [were] also represented. Mixed in with all the land animals are sharks' teeth, turtle shells, and the bones of [freshwater] and salt water fish. The bones are all smashed and jumbled together, as if by some catastrophe. The big question is how bones from such different ecological niches--plains, forests, oceans--came together."
"The fact that marine and terrestrial animals were buried in the same soils and sediment level where human bones or artifacts have been found suggests that an immense, recent flood occurred."
"Velikovsky described the Cromer forest beds in Norfolk, England: In Cromer, Norfolk, close to the North Sea coast, and in other places on the British Isles, "forest beds" have been found. The name derives from the presence of a great number of stumps of trees, once supposed to have rooted and grown where they are not found. Many of the stumps are in upright positions and their roots are often interlocked. Today, these forests are recognized as having drifted: The roots do not end in small fibers, but are broken off, in most cases one to three feet from the trunk."
"Bones of [60] species of mammals, besides birds, frogs and snakes, were found in the forest-bed of Norfolk. Among the mammals were the saber-toothed tiger, huge bear, mammoth, straight-tusked elephant, hippopotamus, rhinoceros, bison and modern horse....Two exclusively northern species--glutton and musk-ox--were found among animals from temperate and tropical latitudes."
"Immediately above the forest-bed, there is a freshwater deposit with arctic plants--arctic willow and dwarf birch--and land shells. Astarte borealis and other mollusk shells are found ‘in the position of life with both valves united.’ These species ‘are arctic, but, as the bed seems in other places to contain Ostreaedulis, [a mollusk] which requires a temperate sea, the evidence is conflicting as to the climate."
"What could have brought together, or in quick succession, all these animals and plants from the tundra of the Arctic Circle and from jungles of the tropics, from lush oak forest and from desert, from lands of many latitudes and altitudes, from freshwater lakes and rivers, and from salt seas of the north and south?"(The Flood, Charles Ginenthal)
"Velikovsky describes muck deposits filled with millions upon millions of broken bones of extinct mammoth, mastodon, super bison and horse found throughout the lower reaches of the Yukon and according to F. Rainey in American Antiquity, 1940, Volume 5, ’may be considered to extend in greater or lesser thickness over all unglaciated areas of the northern peninsula" [of Alaska and into northern Canada. The] "millions upon millions of animals torn limb from limb [are]...mingled with uprooted trees."
“Throughout these masses of shattered bones and trees is volcanic ash. And the depth of these masses of bones, trees and ash is great, "as much as 140 feet." F.C. Hibben of the University of New Mexico ["Evidence of Early Man in Alaska", American Antiquity, VIII (1943), p. 256] states that, ‘Although the formation of deposits of muck is not clear, there is ample evidence that at least portions of this material were deposited under catastrophic conditions. Mammal remains are for the most part, dismembered and disarticulated, even though some fragments yet retain, in their frozen state, portions of ligaments, skin, hair and flesh. Twisted and torn trees are piled in splintered masses... At least four considerable layers of volcanic ash may be traced in these deposits, although they are extremely warped and distorted."
“Velikovsky then informs us that, ‘In various levels of the muck, stone artifacts were found, 'frozen in situ' at great depths and in apparent association, with the Ice Age fauna, which implies that 'men were contemporary with extinct animals in Alaska.' [See Rainey, American Antiquity, V, p. 307] Worked flints, characteristically shaped, called Yuma points, were repeatedly found in the Alaskan muck, one hundred and more feet below the surface. One such spear point [according to Hibben, American Antiquity, VIII, p. 257] was found there between a lion's jaw and a mammoth's tusk. Similar weapons were used only a few generations ago by the Indians of the Athapascan tribe, who camped in the upper Tanana Valley. [See Rainey, American Antiquity, VI, p. 301] [And Hibben in American Antiquity, VIII, p. 256 writes] 'It has also been suggested that even modern Eskimo points are remarkably Yuma like,' all of which indicates that the multitudes of torn animals and splintered forests date from a time not many thousands of years ago."
"William N. Irving and C.R. Harington in Science, report having found the jaw bone of a child perhaps eleven or twelve years old in the graveyard of the permafrost of the Yukon. In Siberia on the other side of the Arctic Ocean are found mass graveyards of mammoth bones by the millions upon millions as well as on the New Siberian Islands."
"In the stomachs and between the teeth of the mammoths were found plants and grasses that do not grow now in northern Siberia. 'The contents of the stomachs have been carefully examined,' [according to Whitney in the Journal of the Philosophical Society of Great Britain, XII (1910), p. 56] they showed the undigested food, leaves of trees now found in Southern Siberia, but a long way from the existing deposits of ivory. Microscopic examination of the skin showed red blood corpuscles, which was a proof not only of a sudden death, but that death was due to suffocation either by gases or water, evidently the latter in this case. But the puzzle remained to account for the sudden freezing up of this large mass of flesh so as to preserve it for future ages."
"What could have caused a sudden change in the temperature of the region? Today the country does not provide food for large quadrupeds, the soil is barren and produces only moss and fungi a few months in the year; at that time the animals fed on plants. And not only mammoths pastured in northern Siberia and on the islands of the Arctic Ocean. On Kotelnoi [according to Whitney above, p. 50] 'neither trees, nor shrubs, nor bushes exist...and yet the bones of elephants, rhinoceroses, buffaloes, and horses are found in the icy wilderness in numbers which defy all calculation."(Carl Sagan and Immanuel Velikovsky,p.198-199).
“According to James Trifil, some 243 fossilized whale skeletons and loose bones were discovered in a large valley 150 miles southwest of Cairo (100 miles inland from the Mediterranean Sea and more than 200 miles from the Red Sea). These skeletons are of Zeuglodon whales, like those found all over the southeastern United States. The Egyptian whale bones were scattered among the sand dunes; when the wind exposed them, the paleontologists rapidly dug out as much of the fossilized whale as possible because windborne sand erodes exposed bones.”(The Flood, Charles Ginenthal)
“The Sahara Desert, which stretches from the Nile to the Atlantic Ocean across the continent of Africa and covers 3,500,000 square miles, about the area of all of Europe, is the greatest desert on earth. What is now the desert of Sahara was an open grassland or steppe in earlier days. Drawings on rock of herds of cattle, made by early dwellers in this region, were discovered by Barth in 1850. Since then many more drawings have been found. The animals depicted no longer inhabit these regions, and many are generally extinct. It is asserted that the Sahara once had a large human population that lived in vast green forests and on fat pasture lands. Neolithic implements, vessels and weapons made of polished stone, were found close to the drawings. Such drawings and implements were discovered in the eastern as well as the western Sahara. Men lived in these 'densely populated' (Flint) regions and cattle pastured where today enormous expanses of sand stretch for thousands of miles."
“Several theories have been offered to explain the prodigious quantity of sand in the Sahara. 'The theory of marine origin is now longer tenable.’ The sand, it was found, is of recent origin. It is assumed that when a large part of Europe was under ice the Sahara was in a warm and moist temperate zone; later the soil lost its moisture and the rock crumbled to sand when left to the mercy of the sun and the wind."
“How long ago was it that conditions in the Sahara were suitable for human occupation? Movers, the noted Orientalist of the last century, author of a large work on the Phoenicians, decided that the drawings in the Sahara were the work of the Phoenicians. It was likewise observed that on the drawings discovered by Barth the cattle wore discs between their horns, just as Egyptian drawings. Also, the Egyptian god Set was found pictured on the rocks. And there are rock paintings of war chariots drawn by horses in an area where these animals could not survive two days without extraordinary precautions.'
“The extinct animals in the drawings suggest that these pictures were made sometime during the Ice Age; but the Egyptian motifs in the very same drawings suggest that they were made in historical times."
“The conflict between the historical and the paleontological evidence, and of both of them with the geological evidence, is resolved if one or more catastrophes intervened. It appears that a large part of the region was occupied by an inland lake, or vast marsh, known to the ancients as Lake Triton. In a stupendous catastrophe the lake emptied itself into the Atlantic, and the sand on its bottom and shores was left behind, forming a desert when tectonic movements sealed off the springs that fed the lake. The 'land of pastures and forests' became a desert of sand; hippopotami that live in water and elephants disappeared and with them also the hunter and the farmer."
“The French savant A. Berthelot says: 'It is possible that Stone Age man witnessed in Africa three notable events: the sinking of the Spanish-Atlas chain that opened the Strait of Gibraltar and created a junction between the Mediterranean Sea and the Ocean; the collapse that cut off the Canary Islands from the African continent; the opening of the Strait of Babel-Mandeb, separating Arabia from Ethiopia.' Berthelot, however, ascribed these great tectonic changes to the time of prehistoric man and Abbe Breuil actually showed that prehistoric man already occupied these regions as the neolithic or very crudely chipped stone artifacts indicate. But at a later date people of advanced culture, contemporary with pharaonic Egypt, lived in communities, pastured their cattle, and left their tools and drawings there. Then in an upheaval, of which many traditions persist in classical literature, the Atlas Mountains were torn apart, the great lake was emptied, and the watery region became the great and awesome desert - the Sahara."
“There is a 'certainty beyond challenge that when the icecap of the last Glacial period covered a large part of the northern hemisphere, at least three great rivers flowed from west to east across the whole width of the [Arabian] Peninsula.' So wrote Philby in his book ‘Arabia’. There was also a large lake in Arabia that disappeared in some geological or climatical change.”(Earth in Upheaval, p.88-89)
“The most renowned naturalist to come from the generation of the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars was George Cuvier. He was the founder of vertebrate paleontology, or the science of fossil bones, and thus of the science of extinct animals. Studying the finds made in the gypsum formation, of Montmartre in Paris and those elsewhere in France and the European continent in general, he came to the conclusion that in the midst of even the oldest strata of marine formations there are other strata replete with animal or plant remains of terrestrial or fresh-water forms; and that among the more recent strata, or those that are nearer the surface, there are also land animals buried under heaps of marine sediment. 'It has frequently happened that lands which have been laid dry, have been again covered by the waters, in consequence either of their being engulfed in the abyss, or of the sea having merely risen over them . . . These repeated irruptions and retreats of the sea have neither all been slow nor gradual; on the contrary, most of the catastrophes which have occasioned them have been sudden, and this is especially easy to be proven, with regard to the last of these catastrophes, that which, by a twofold motion, has inundated, and afterwards laid dry, our present continents, or at least a part of the land which forms them at the present days
“ 'The breaking to pieces, the raising up and overturning of the older strata [of the earth], leave no doubt upon the mind that they have been reduced to the state in which we now see them, by the action of sudden and violent causes; and even the force of the motions excited in the mass of waters, is still attested by the heaps of debris and rounded pebbles which are in many places interposed between the solid strata. Life, therefore, has often been disturbed on this earth by terrific events. Numberless living beings have been the victims of these catastrophes; some, which inhabited the dry land, have been swallowed up by inundations; others, which peopled the waters, have been laid dry, the bottom of the sea having been suddenly raised; their very races have been extinguished for ever, and have left no other memorial of their existence than some fragments which the naturalist can scarcely recognize.'“
“In 1823, William Buckland, professor of geology at the University of Oxford, published his Reliquiae dilauianae (Relics of the Flood), with the subtitle, ‘Observations on the organic remains contained in caves, fissures, and diluvial gravel, and on other geological phenomena’, attesting the action of a universal deluge. Buckland was one of the great authorities on geology of the first half of the nineteenth century. In a cave in Kirkdale in Yorkshire, eighty feet above the valley, under a floor covering of stalagmites, he found teeth and bones of elephants, rhinoceroses, hippopotami, horses, deer, tigers (the teeth of which were 'larger than those of the largest lion or Bengal tiger'), bears, wolves, hyenas, foxes, hares, rabbits, as well as bones of ravens, pigeons, larks, snipe, and ducks. Many of the animals had died 'before the first set, or milk teeth, had been shed."
“Certain scholars prior to Buckland had their own explanation for the provenience of elephant bones in the soil of England, and to them Buckland referred - '[The idea] which long prevailed, and was considered satisfactory by the antiquaries [archaeologists] of the last century, was, that they were the remains of elephants imported by the Roman armies. This idea is also refuted: First, by the anatomical fact of their belonging to an extinct species of this genus; second, by their being usually accompanied by the bones of rhinoceros and hippopotamus, animals which could never have been attached to Roman armies; thirdly, by their being found dispersed over Siberia and North America, in equal or even greater abundance than in those parts of Europe which were subjected to the Roman power."
“It appeared that hippopotamus and reindeer and bison lived side by side at Kirkdale; hippopotamus, reindeer, and mammoth pastured together at Brentford near London.' Reindeer and grizzly bear lived with the hippopotamus at Cefn in Wales. Lemming and reindeer bones were found together with bone of the cave lion and hyena at Bleadon in Somerset.' Hippopotamus, bison, and musk sheep were found together with worked flint in the gravels of the Thames Valley. The remains of reindeer lay with the bones of mammoth and rhinoceros in the cave of Breugue in France, in the same red clay, encased by the same stalagmites. At Arcy, France, also in a cave, bones of the hippopotamus were found with bones of the reindeer, and with them a worked flint.'
“According to the prophecy of Isaiah (11:6), in messianic times to come, the lion and the calf would pasture together. But even prophetic vision has not conceived of a reindeer from snow-covered Lapland and a hippopotamus from the tropical Congo River living together on the British Isles or in France. Yet they did leave their bones in the same mud of the same caves, together with bones of other animals, in the strangest assortments."
“These animal bones were found in gravel and clay to which Buckland gave the name of diluvium. Buckland was concerned 'to establish two important facts; first, that there has been a recent and general inundation of the globe; and, second, that the animals whose remains are found interred in the wreck of that inundation were natives of high north latitudes.' The presence of tropical animals in northern Europe 'cannot be solved by supposing them to migrate periodically . . . for in the case of crocodiles and tortoises extensive emigration is almost impossible, and not less so to such an unwieldy animal as the hippopotamus when out of the water.' But how could they live in the cold of northern Europe? Buckland says: 'It is equally difficult to imagine that they could have passed their winters in lakes or rivers frozen up with ice.' If cold-blooded land animals are unable to hide themselves in the ground over the winter, in icy climates their blood would freeze solid: they lack the ability to regulate the temperature of their bodies. Like Cuvier, Buckland was 'nearly certain that if any change of climate has taken place, it took place suddenly."
“Of the time the catastrophe occurred, which covered with mud and pebbles the bones in the Kirkdale cave, Buckland wrote: 'From the limited quantity of postdiluvian stalactite, as well as from the undecayed condition of the bones, 'one must deduce that time elapsed since the introduction of the diluvial mud has not been of excessive length.' The bones were not yet fossilized; their organic matter was not yet replaced by minerals. Buckland thought that the time elapsed since a diluvian catastrophe could not have exceeded five or six thousand years, the figure adopted also by De Luc, Dolomueu, and Cuvier, each of whom presented his own reasons."
“Then the illustrious geologist added these words: What [the] cause was, whether a change in the inclination in the earth's axis, or the near approach of a comet, or any other cause or combination of causes purely astronomical, is a question the discussion of which is foreign to the object of the present memoir.'“
“The Old Red Sandstone is regarded as one of the oldest strata with signs of extinct life in it. No animal life higher than fish is found there. Whatever the age of this formation, it carries the testimony and 'a wonderful record of violent death falling at once, not on a few individuals, but on whole tribes."
“In the late thirties of the last century Hugh Miller made the Old Red Sandstone in Scotland the special subject of his investigations. He observed: 'The earth had already become a vast sepulchre, to a depth beneath the bed of the sea equal to at least twice the height of Ben Nevis over its surface.’ Ben Nevis in the Grampian Mountains is the highest peak in Great Britain, 4406 feet high. The stratum of the Old Red Sandstone is twice as thick."
“This formation presents the spectacle of an upheaval immobilised at a particular moment and petrified forever. Hugh Miller wrote:
'“The first scene in Shakespeare's The Tempest opens amid the confusion and turmoil of the hurricane - amid thunders and lightnings, the roar of the wind, the shouts of the seamen, the rattling of cordage, and the wild dash of the billows. The history of the period represented by the Old Red Sandstone seems, in what now forms the northern half of Scotland, to have opened in a similar manner . . . The vast space which now includes Orkney and Loch Ness, Dingwall and Gamrie, and many a thousand square miles besides, was the scene of a shallow ocean, perplexed by powerful currents, and agitated by waves. A vast stratum of water-rolled pebbles, varying in depth from a hundred feet to a hundred yards, remain in a thousand different localities, to testify of the disturbing agencies of this time of commotion. 'Miller found that the hardest masses in the stratum - 'porphyries of vitreous fracture that cut glass as readily as flint, and masses of quartz that strike fire quite as profusely from steel, - are yet polished and ground down into bullet-like forms . . . And yet it is surely difficult to conceive how the bottom of any sea should have been so violently and so equally agitated for so greatly extended a space . . . and for a period so prolonged, that the entire area should have come to be covered with a stratum of rolled pebbles of almost every variety of ancient rock, fifteen stories' height in thickness."
“In the red sandstone an abundant aquatic fauna is embedded. The animals are in disturbed positions. At the period of the past when these formations were composed, 'some terrible catastrophe involved in sudden destruction the fish of an area at least a hundred miles from boundary to boundary, perhaps much more. The same platform in Orkney as at Cromarty is strewed thick with remains, which exhibit unequivocally the marks of violent death. The figures are contorted, contracted, curved; the tail in many instances is bent around to the head; the spines stick out; the fins are spread to the full, as in fish that die in convulsions. The Pterichthy shows its arms extended at their stiffest angle, as if prepared for an enemy. The attitudes of all the ichthyolites [any fossil fish] on this platform are attitudes of fear, anger and pain. The remains, too, appear to have suffered nothing from the after-attacks of predaceous fishes; none such seem to have survived. The record is one of destruction at once widely spread and total."
“What agency of destruction could have accounted for 'innumerable existences of an area perhaps ten thousand square miles in extent [being] annihilated at once'? 'Conjecture lacks footing in grappling with the enigma, and expatiates in uncertainty over all the known phenomena of death,' wrote Miller”.
“The ravages of no disease, however virulent, could explain some of the phenomena of this arena of death. Rarely does disease fall equally on many different genera at once, and never does it strike with instantaneous suddenness; yet in the ruins of this platform from ten to twelve distinct genera and many species were involved; and so suddenly did the agency perform its work that its victims were fixed in their first attitude of surprise and terror.
“The area of the Old Red Sandstone investigated by Miller comprises one half of Scotland, from Loch Ness to the land's northern extremity and beyond to the Orkney Islands in the north. 'A thousand different localities' disclose the same scene of destruction."
“An identical picture can be found in many other places all around the world, in similar and dissimilar formations. Of Monte Bolca, near Verona in northern Italy, Buckland wrote: ‘The circumstances under which the fossil fishes are found at Monte Bolca seem to indicate that they perished suddenly . . . The skeletons of these fish lie parallel to the laminae of the strata of the calcareous slate; they are always entire, and closely packed on one another . . . All these fishes must have died suddenly . . . and have been speedily buried in the calcareous sediment then in the course of deposition. From the fact that certain individuals have even preserved traces of colour upon their skin, we are certain that they were entombed before decomposition of their soft parts had taken place."
“The same author wrote about the fish deposits in the area of the Harz Mountains in Germany: 'Another celebrated deposit of fossil fishes is that of the cupriferous slate surrounding the Harz. Many of the fishes of this slate at Mansfield, Eisleben, etc., have a distorted attitude, which has often been assigned to writhing in the agonies of death . . . As these fossil fishes maintain the attitude of the rigid stage immediately succeeding death, it follows that they were buried before putrefaction had commenced, and apparently in the same bituminous mud, the influx of which had caused their destruction.'
“The story of agony and sudden death and immediate encasing is told by the red sandstone of Scotland; the limestone of Monte Bolca in Lombardy; the bituminous slate of Mansfield in Thuringia; and also by the coal formation of Saarbrucken on the Saar, 'the most celebrated deposits of fossil fishes in Europe'; the calcareous slate of Solenhofen; the blue slate of Glaris; the marlstone of Oensingen in Switzerland and of Aix in Provence, to mention only a few of the better-known sites in Europe(Earth in Upheaval, p.23, 25-29).
He undoubtedly got his ideas about a 3 month carving out of the Grand Canyon after an ice-dam was breached, from the work that has been done on the Channeled Scablands since the 1920s. However, there are multiple reasons why his idea regarding the GC won't 'wash'. I've posted on this before and if have time will try to ferret it out.ransomme wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 5:49 amlarsenb wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 1:18 amWhoever that guy was, he seems to be confabulating well documented breaks in ice dam lakes that created the eastern Washington Channeled Scablands throughout the Pleistocene.mudflap wrote: ↑March 19th, 2021, 9:52 pm . . . . .
I hiked the Grand Canyon rim to rim many years ago. I remember the visitor's center brochures and rangers telling you how it took "millions of years to carve". Then I saw a "crazy guy" theory about how it all could've happened in 3 months through a glacier ice dam burst, and now a lot of geologists agree with the crazy guy. . . . . .
No, that guy is Randall Carlson and his work is not actually crazy. Although he has done work with Graham Hancock who has unconventional theories on ancient human history such as saying the Sphinx is thousands of years older than the 4th Egyptian dynasty (+/- 2500 BC).
In this Joe Rogan podcast, I believe Randall Carlson discusses a lot of what happened across the landscape of the Northwestern US at the end of the Younger Dryas period ~12,000 years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5LCLljJho
This is another JRE Randall was on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0Cp7DrvNLQ
Here is his podcast channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheRandallCarlson/videos
As I've mentioned, a "world-wide flood" could actually mean flooding that was experienced in many parts of the world; hence: it may have been world-wide flooding. The question then becomes, what event could do such a thing?Mindfields wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 7:15 am While both science and religion are in pursuit of the truth; truth is independent of both science and religion. Religion claims there was a world wide flood. Science claims there's evidence for regional floods and there is no scientific evidence of a world wide flood. So unless God literally magicked the world wide flood and then hid the evidence of a world wide flood, there wasn't one. The flood narrative contained in Genesis is fraught with inconsistences and impossibilities. Once again unless God magicked the entire event it didn't happen.
I’m telling ya, read velikovsky.larsenb wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 4:03 pmAs I've mentioned, a "world-wide flood" could actually mean flooding that was experienced in many parts of the world; hence: it may have been world-wide flooding. The question then becomes, what event could do such a thing?Mindfields wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 7:15 am While both science and religion are in pursuit of the truth; truth is independent of both science and religion. Religion claims there was a world wide flood. Science claims there's evidence for regional floods and there is no scientific evidence of a world wide flood. So unless God literally magicked the world wide flood and then hid the evidence of a world wide flood, there wasn't one. The flood narrative contained in Genesis is fraught with inconsistences and impossibilities. Once again unless God magicked the entire event it didn't happen.
Isn't it true that Noah sent out his dove a second time, and it came back with an olive twig with leaves on it? The problem with that story and a universal coverage of the earth in water, is that if you drown vegetation, it dies w/in a week or so. So how is it that while still ensconsed in his boat surrounded by water, Noah was finally able discover living vegetation thanks to his dove?mudflap wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 7:50 amI respectfully disagree.
Genesis 7:19
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.This apocryphal one is interesting - not only were all the fountains "broken up", but the "whole earth" shook and "moved violently", along with lightning and thunder - maybe a meteor or something - certainly possible - read the whole chapter - very interesting - and very consistent with Genesis:Genesis 8:9
9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.
Jasher 6:11
11 And on that day, the Lord caused the whole earth to shake, and the sun darkened, and the foundations of the world raged, and the whole earth was moved violently, and the lightning flashed, and the thunder roared, and all the fountains in the earth were broken up, such as was not known to the inhabitants before; and God did this mighty act, in order to terrify the sons of men, that there might be no more evil upon earth.some animals didn't make it. My dog crouches when I get ready to throw a stick (he's a heeler). Not because he's cowering - he's loading his springJasher 6:2 And thou shalt go and seat thyself by the doors of the ark, and all the beasts, the animals, and the fowls, shall assemble and place themselves before thee, and such of them as shall come and crouch before thee, shalt thou take and deliver into the hands of thy sons, who shall bring them to the ark, and all that will stand before thee thou shalt leave.
But the idea that God could not flood the whole earth or that the Bible is "mistaken" or that it was "only regional" or that "not everyone died" just seems silly to me in light of the consistency of the scriptures.
Two things I have no doubts about:
1. The whole earth was flooded - every mountain, just as it says.
2. The whole earth will be burned - down to the last blade of grass.
Nope. Science is not a religion. You're mixing up how some people may regard it and its main practicioneers with what it actually is.bbrown wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 8:50 am Science is a religion. And the most offensive of them all in my opinion. The scientific method is of great value and has helped improve life. Science however has never proved anything except that it always changes its mind, and it’s diety is the scientists themselves. They declare absolute truth based on tiny fragments and narrow observations only to change their minds with more evidence.
For those interested in questions like what is science and what is not (and where in the spectrum does Velikovsky fit in), or how does the scientific method work, I can recommend the book The Pseudoscience Wars: Immanuel Velikovsky and the Birth of the Modern Fringe by Michael D. Gordin.larsenb wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 4:18 pmNope. Science is not a religion. You're mixing up how some people may regard it and its main practicioneers with what it actually is.bbrown wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 8:50 am Science is a religion. And the most offensive of them all in my opinion. The scientific method is of great value and has helped improve life. Science however has never proved anything except that it always changes its mind, and it’s diety is the scientists themselves. They declare absolute truth based on tiny fragments and narrow observations only to change their minds with more evidence.
As you suggest, it is a method of great value, because when correctly followed, it allows us to discern cause-and- effect relationships between things and how they interact. It does get more iffy, the more you get away from physical causality. But generally, it is a consensus method that can be repeated by theoretically anyone for verification purposes.
And scientists normally avoid declaring their findings as "absolute truth" like the plague.
From Ginenthal, I presume. And if so, was it from his booklet, titled: The Flood, or an article by same title?SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 10:43 am Yea, Immanuel Velikovsky’s book “Earth in Upheaval” and Charles Ginenthal’s article entitled “The Flood”, are some of the best sources for geological evidence of Noah's Flood/Deluge. From both a mythological and geological perspective, there is more than enough proof to show that the Flood of Noah’s time was truly a worldwide one and one that wrought tremendous destruction to heaven and earth. Velikovsky got many things right in regards to details but his overall reconstruction of the past (ancient heavens) is wrong in many ways.
Here is a sampling...
https://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006 ... 0flood.htm
His mentioning Velikovsky's citing evidence for a 3,500 yr BP flood fits very well with the meteor-caused 'flood' I brought up. The idea that catastrophic events did not happen in geologic time because of a 'principle' of uniformitarianism, has been dead for many, many decades.One of the problems in Velikovskian research has been the inability to distinguish between catastrophes that occurred close in time to one another. It is also difficult to distinguish the different time frames of the worldwide floods. Immanuel Velikovsky documented mythological and geophysical evidence of a worldwide flood occurring 3,500 years ago.1 He also spoke of earlier catastrophes that produced immense global floods; such floods would have left distinctive evidence.
The evidence I present is a melange of data regarding more than one global flood. Apparently, the earlier global floods occurred when major icecaps covered the continents and later floods occurred after these were destroyed. Recent findings verify that such global floods occurred and negate the uniformitarian argument that the flood evidence indicates only local flood episodes.
Just curious, do you disagree with my short assessment? Your post seems to imply that. If so, how?inho wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 4:26 pmFor those interested in questions like what is science and what is not (and where in the spectrum does Velikovsky fit in), or how does the scientific method work, I can recommend the book The Pseudoscience Wars: Immanuel Velikovsky and the Birth of the Modern Fringe by Michael D. Gordin.larsenb wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 4:18 pmNope. Science is not a religion. You're mixing up how some people may regard it and its main practicioneers with what it actually is.bbrown wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 8:50 am Science is a religion. And the most offensive of them all in my opinion. The scientific method is of great value and has helped improve life. Science however has never proved anything except that it always changes its mind, and it’s diety is the scientists themselves. They declare absolute truth based on tiny fragments and narrow observations only to change their minds with more evidence.
As you suggest, it is a method of great value, because when correctly followed, it allows us to discern cause-and- effect relationships between things and how they interact. It does get more iffy, the more you get away from physical causality. But generally, it is a consensus method that can be repeated by theoretically anyone for verification purposes.
And scientists normally avoid declaring their findings as "absolute truth" like the plague.
But what evidence does he site for this conjecture? That is what I'm interested in. I've known about and have read some Velikovsky for decades, but being active in the discipline of geology for even longer, I regard a lot of what he does and claims as "arm waving". Which is OK, as long as it is presented as being essentially hypothesizing, even with some or minimal evidence being presented.NewEliza wrote: ↑March 20th, 2021, 10:01 amSure. His theory basically is that earth used to be very near to Saturn, and due to Jupiter approaching saturn and rocking it’s orbit, Saturn spun away and there were a series of events that left a watery tail behind that became its rings. Earth was splashed with that water.
http://varchive.org/itb/index.htm
http://varchive.org/itb/deluge.htm
http://varchive.org/itb/satdel.htm