The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine

[nightlight]

Wine is not hard to make. It will end up with like 10% alcohol......Unless you use grapes that aren't ripe

Jesus drank wine with high alcohol content....the Jews knew how to make wine, but it still wasn't as good as the kind Jesus created

[abijah`]

Wine is not hard to make. It will end up with like 10% alcohol......Unless you use grapes that aren't ripe

Jesus drank wine with high alcohol content....the Jews knew how to make wine, but it still wasn't as good as the kind Jesus created

Yeah...

I dont get the alcohol percentage talk. A tiny cup of 5% or 15%, its not like it really matters when its such a small amount, its not like thats gonna get you tipsy or buzzed lol

And besides, I dont understand the reasoning behind "psychoactive = sinful", if something affects your mood it means its evil. The scriptures dont say this:

Psalm 104
You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth, and wine to gladden the heart of man

[4Joshua8]

I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.

We made our own new wine, per DC 89, 2 of the last 3 weeks for sacrament. Loved the experience.

[Robin Hood]

I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.

We made our own new wine, per DC 89, 2 of the last 3 weeks for sacrament. Loved the experience.

What did you do?

[4Joshua8]

I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.

We made our own new wine, per DC 89, 2 of the last 3 weeks for sacrament. Loved the experience.

What did you do?

rudimentary process. Took rinsed grapes, blended them for a few moments in blender to extract juice, ran through a metal strainer to remove the pulp, put in a mason jar with a cloth banded over the top, and put in cupboard until Sabbath. On Sabbath, we take the liquid from top and leave solids at bottom by gently pouring into sacrament cup.

This won’t be very alcoholic after 2 days, which is what we did...we aren’t adding yeast. Yeast may exist naturally on the grape skin, though.

It really felt more special to my family.

[4Joshua8]

I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.

We made our own new wine, per DC 89, 2 of the last 3 weeks for sacrament. Loved the experience.

What did you do?

rudimentary process. Took rinsed grapes, blended them for a few moments in blender to extract juice, ran through a metal strainer to remove the pulp, put in a mason jar with a cloth banded over the top, and put in cupboard until Sabbath. On Sabbath, we take the liquid from top and leave solids at bottom by gently pouring into sacrament cup.

This won’t be very alcoholic after 2 days, which is what we did...we aren’t adding yeast. Yeast may exist naturally on the grape skin, though.

It really felt more special to my family.

This last Sabbath, we just used Concord grape juice, though we’ll probably go back to the wine this next week if grape quality is good by then. Grapes have been really poor quality in my area lately.

[Robin Hood]

I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.

We made our own new wine, per DC 89, 2 of the last 3 weeks for sacrament. Loved the experience.

What did you do?

rudimentary process. Took rinsed grapes, blended them for a few moments in blender to extract juice, ran through a metal strainer to remove the pulp, put in a mason jar with a cloth banded over the top, and put in cupboard until Sabbath. On Sabbath, we take the liquid from top and leave solids at bottom by gently pouring into sacrament cup.

This won’t be very alcoholic after 2 days, which is what we did...we aren’t adding yeast. Yeast may exist naturally on the grape skin, though.

It really felt more special to my family.

Thank you, I'll give it a go.

[nightlight]

Wine is not hard to make. It will end up with like 10% alcohol......Unless you use grapes that aren't ripe

Jesus drank wine with high alcohol content....the Jews knew how to make wine, but it still wasn't as good as the kind Jesus created

Yeah...

I dont get the alcohol percentage talk. A tiny cup of 5% or 15%, its not like it really matters when its such a small amount, its not like thats gonna get you tipsy or buzzed lol

And besides, I dont understand the reasoning behind "psychoactive = sinful", if something affects your mood it means its evil. The scriptures dont say this:

Psalm 104
You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth, and wine to gladden the heart of man

Prohibition was a major thing during Smith and Grant years. It wasn't a Mormon thing, it was more of an counterculture to the Western way of life. The national Anti-Saloon League got Grant completely on board and Mormons have never looked back.

It's not a revelation thing... because anyone with scriptures can pick up in read that it's okay for us to drink wine and beer. It's a cultural trend that Mormons followed... but did not start with more Mormondom. Same with thing with bud.

[Cruiserdude]

I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.

We made our own new wine, per DC 89, 2 of the last 3 weeks for sacrament. Loved the experience.

What did you do?

rudimentary process. Took rinsed grapes, blended them for a few moments in blender to extract juice, ran through a metal strainer to remove the pulp, put in a mason jar with a cloth banded over the top, and put in cupboard until Sabbath. On Sabbath, we take the liquid from top and leave solids at bottom by gently pouring into sacrament cup.

This won’t be very alcoholic after 2 days, which is what we did...we aren’t adding yeast. Yeast may exist naturally on the grape skin, though.

It really felt more special to my family.

The things one can change or do differently to enhance the meaning of the sacrament are all fine and dandy.... the 'fruit' is what will tell us if we're on track....
And looks like your changes bore 'good fruit' as reflected in your family's experience:

"It really felt more special to my family."

Well done, faithful head of your household

[nightlight]

You have to wait at least a week for fermentation to start.... Fermentation is the symbol of the change man... Hence Jesus and His apostles using it in an ordinance that represents being born again

You don't need to get drunk lol ... grape juice is grape juice until fermentation starts
New wine doesn't = grape juice

Why do you think so many bright Christians were into alchemy?

[4Joshua8]

You have to wait at least a week for fermentation to start....

You don't need to get drunk lol ... grape juice is grape juice until fermentation starts
New wine doesn't = grape juice

Why do you think so many bright Christians were into alchemy?

Yeah, it's a good point with "new wine" not necessarily meaning it was just barely crushed or juiced.
But "grape juice" doesn't ferment (unless you add yeast) because processing (for store-bought) intentionally kills the yeast such that the product normally won't turn into wine (assuming they killed off all the yeast successfully). My thinking was that at least I'm not killing off the yeast during my production, although I didn't let it finish fully developing.

Fermentation doesn't have to take a week to start, though, as I learned at home. Fermentation can start in a day or so, depending on different factors, like how much yeast is in it and the temperature.

[nightlight]

You have to wait at least a week for fermentation to start....

You don't need to get drunk lol ... grape juice is grape juice until fermentation starts
New wine doesn't = grape juice

Why do you think so many bright Christians were into alchemy?

Yeah, it's a good point with "new wine" not necessarily meaning it was just barely crushed or juiced.
But "grape juice" doesn't ferment (unless you add yeast) because processing (for store-bought) intentionally kills the yeast such that the product normally won't turn into wine (assuming they killed off all the yeast successfully). My thinking was that at least I'm not killing off the yeast during my production, although I didn't let it finish fully developing.

Fermentation doesn't have to take a week to start, though, as I learned at home. Fermentation can start in a day or so, depending on different factors, like how much yeast is in it and the temperature.

I've only done this twice, but it definitely works.

Spring is here...I think I'll make sum wine once it get warm
I do love the spring!!!!

[nightlight]

You don't need to add yeast...there's enough on the grapes and stems etc

oxygen will turn it into vinegar, interesting how they try to give it to Jesus on the cross... Wine mixed with the "world"....

[Silver Pie]

His reaction was "if that's what wine tastes like, there's no chance of me ever becoming a wino."

I remember going to a fellowship meeting where there was wine for the adults who wanted it, and grape juice for teetotalers and children. One boy accidently picked up a cup of wine. He started to drink it, stopped, then quietly dumped it down the sink.

[Reluctant Watchman]

So today we had sacrament in the mountains (with a few good friends) and performed a family first: unleavened bread and grape juice. We also read the sacrament prayers as dictated in the book of Moroni. I’ll do a post later on regarding unleavened bread, but the color and bitter/sweet notes of the Concord grape was beautiful to include as part of our communion with heaven. I’ll be studying up on how to make wine later this year.

[Silver Pie]

So today we had sacrament in the mountains (with a few good friends) and performed a family first: unleavened bread and grape juice. We also read the sacrament prayers as dictated in the book of Moroni. I’ll do a post later on regarding unleavened bread, but the color and bitter/sweet notes of the Concord grape was beautiful to include as part of our communion with heaven. I’ll be studying up on how to make wine later this year.

I learned to make wine a few years ago by taking a class on it. It was very simple. (For example, a lot of people will tell you to use an air lock to let the gasses escape as the juice ferments, but a balloon with one or two pinholes in it will work just fine.) I haven't made it for a while, but when I move to a place where the consistency of the inside temperature can be trusted, I intend to try again. My experience is that it isn't very good before it has been sitting in the bottles for at least 6 months or longer (not that it tastes good after that unless you add a bunch of sugar). If you could have the same teachers I did, you would see that it really is simple. (I think they still live in the Provo/Orem area.)

[Reluctant Watchman]

So today we had sacrament in the mountains (with a few good friends) and performed a family first: unleavened bread and grape juice. We also read the sacrament prayers as dictated in the book of Moroni. I’ll do a post later on regarding unleavened bread, but the color and bitter/sweet notes of the Concord grape was beautiful to include as part of our communion with heaven. I’ll be studying up on how to make wine later this year.

I learned to make wine a few years ago by taking a class on it. It was very simple. (For example, a lot of people will tell you to use an air lock to let the gasses escape as the juice ferments, but a balloon with one or two pinholes in it will work just fine.) I haven't made it for a while, but when I move to a place where the consistency of the inside temperature can be trusted, I intend to try again. My experience is that it isn't very good before it has been sitting in the bottles for at least 6 months or longer (not that it tastes good after that unless you add a bunch of sugar). If you could have the same teachers I did, you would see that it really is simple. (I think they still live in the Provo/Orem area.)

Thanks for the info. I have a neighbor that used to come and pick our grapes to make wine. I'm going to chat with him soon and see how he does it.

[Silver Pie]

Thanks for the info. I have a neighbor that used to come and pick our grapes to make wine. I'm going to chat with him soon and see how he does it.

Cool, It's always a lot easier to have someone walk you through it than it is to read about it - at least for me.

[JuneBug12000]

I think there is something to the alcohol killing germs as well.

Sharing a glass of wine for sacrament seems less risky then sharing a glass of water.

[JSmith]

I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.

Why not just use actual wine?

I think the wine of today is a little more potent than the wine of the past. (Not that a thimble would do anything.) Similar to the hops/beer that Joseph drank. Much lower alcohol content.

Yes and no. The alcohol content of wine is based upon the yeast and the fermentation process. Ancient wines could not be selective in the yeast that they used. So they average between 6 and 8% alcohol content by volume.

This is akin to some sweet wines, or most fruit wines you will find today.

Other wines with highly selected yeast for fermentation can produce between 10 to 12%

However, using certain methods, it was possible for ancient wine, especially religious ceremonial wine (referred to as good wine), to push and alcohol content of 14 to 18%. Which is actually higher than what we have now in general.

So even the wine and beer that Joseph Smith drink during his time was roughly 6 to 8% alcohol content.

The Dixie wine that was grown and produced by the Church in the 1850s and 60s average between six and 10% alcohol by volume from what I have read.

[Reluctant Watchman]

So I visited with my wine-making neighbor this week. Making wine is really quite a fascinating process. I was surprised to find out that grape wine was actually not on his list of top favorites. In fact, I was surprised to find out that you can wine out of a large variety of fruits and plants.

[Reluctant Watchman]

It's been a year since I last spent much time on this topic, but I was reminded of it again this past Sunday as our family drank concord grape juice for the sacrament. I think I'm going to do my next essay focusing on the significance of the sacrament and the bitter/sweet aspects of Christ's atoning sacrifice.

I know that what we drink/eat is simply a symbolic aspect of worship, but I do believe the things we use in that symbolism can help us connect to heaven in far more profound ways. Using blood-red wine really hits home the sacrificial aspects of Christ's suffering.

[solonan]

I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.

Why not just use actual wine?

I think the wine of today is a little more potent than the wine of the past. (Not that a thimble would do anything.) Similar to the hops/beer that Joseph drank. Much lower alcohol content.

This is not 100% true. It’s a common argument made by members of the church. But it’s not totally true. In my office we do a number of projects with agricultural innovations and many of those specifically involve ventures and wineries throughout Appalachia Different wines have different potencies. So you have wine with everything from 5% alcohol to 17% alcohol. It just depends upon the type and make.

Ancient wine, like modern wine, is dependent upon the length and conditions of the fermentation process. The main difference between Roman and modern wines was likely their alcohol content, as both Greek and Roman wines likely had as high as 15% or 20% ABV, compared with 10-12% or so in most modern wines.

Other sources note that Roman wine could be very thick and had a great deal of viscous material to it that had to be watered down. So the traditional mix was two parts wine one part water so it’s possible that Roman wine didn’t reach 14+%, or was commonly about ~10 - 12+%.)

so depending upon the process is used in fermentation, modern wine is about on par with the estimates from the past.

And you are correct about beer. Modern beer is between 3% and higher. Whereas the dutch beer made by Brigham Young and consume by the early church was between 1% to 2.5%

Yeowza! So I lived in Italy, nye onto 6 years. What an experience. Everyone, who isn't Mormon, seems to make their own wine. I used to help my neighbor gather grapes and watched as they went through the process of making it. Really fun experience. During lunch all who were working on the farm we lived next to would eat and of course drink their homemade wine. They surely didn't have a problem with the idea of drinking during work but the children did too. The glass was about 1/4 to 1/3 full and then filled with water. Interestingly I can't remember ever seeing a lush, but then maybe they were just good at hiding it. I tried that stuff and like most Mormons I have to say, I'd never be a good drinker. That stuff is just nasty.

[blitzinstripes]

D&C 27
2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins.

All I know is that Christ is drinking wine when He comes back with Moroni and Elias.

5 Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim;

6 And also with Elias, to whom I have committed the keys of bringing to pass the restoration of all things spoken by the mouth of all the holy prophets since the world began, concerning the last days;

I for one, would love to have a beer with Jesus. Like the country song.