The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
- nightlight
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
Wine is not hard to make. It will end up with like 10% alcohol......Unless you use grapes that aren't ripe
Jesus drank wine with high alcohol content....the Jews knew how to make wine, but it still wasn't as good as the kind Jesus created
Jesus drank wine with high alcohol content....the Jews knew how to make wine, but it still wasn't as good as the kind Jesus created
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- ~dog days~
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
Yeah...nightlight wrote: ↑March 15th, 2021, 10:58 am Wine is not hard to make. It will end up with like 10% alcohol......Unless you use grapes that aren't ripe
Jesus drank wine with high alcohol content....the Jews knew how to make wine, but it still wasn't as good as the kind Jesus created
I dont get the alcohol percentage talk. A tiny cup of 5% or 15%, its not like it really matters when its such a small amount, its not like thats gonna get you tipsy or buzzed lol
And besides, I dont understand the reasoning behind "psychoactive = sinful", if something affects your mood it means its evil. The scriptures dont say this:
Psalm 104
You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth, and wine to gladden the heart of man
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- captain of 1,000
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 9th, 2021, 11:51 am I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.
We made our own new wine, per DC 89, 2 of the last 3 weeks for sacrament. Loved the experience.
- Robin Hood
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
What did you do?4Joshua8 wrote: ↑March 15th, 2021, 12:24 pmRobin Hood wrote: ↑March 9th, 2021, 11:51 am I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.
We made our own new wine, per DC 89, 2 of the last 3 weeks for sacrament. Loved the experience.
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- captain of 1,000
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
rudimentary process. Took rinsed grapes, blended them for a few moments in blender to extract juice, ran through a metal strainer to remove the pulp, put in a mason jar with a cloth banded over the top, and put in cupboard until Sabbath. On Sabbath, we take the liquid from top and leave solids at bottom by gently pouring into sacrament cup.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 15th, 2021, 12:25 pmWhat did you do?4Joshua8 wrote: ↑March 15th, 2021, 12:24 pmRobin Hood wrote: ↑March 9th, 2021, 11:51 am I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.
We made our own new wine, per DC 89, 2 of the last 3 weeks for sacrament. Loved the experience.
This won’t be very alcoholic after 2 days, which is what we did...we aren’t adding yeast. Yeast may exist naturally on the grape skin, though.
It really felt more special to my family.
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- captain of 1,000
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
This last Sabbath, we just used Concord grape juice, though we’ll probably go back to the wine this next week if grape quality is good by then. Grapes have been really poor quality in my area lately.4Joshua8 wrote: ↑March 15th, 2021, 12:31 pmrudimentary process. Took rinsed grapes, blended them for a few moments in blender to extract juice, ran through a metal strainer to remove the pulp, put in a mason jar with a cloth banded over the top, and put in cupboard until Sabbath. On Sabbath, we take the liquid from top and leave solids at bottom by gently pouring into sacrament cup.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 15th, 2021, 12:25 pmWhat did you do?4Joshua8 wrote: ↑March 15th, 2021, 12:24 pmRobin Hood wrote: ↑March 9th, 2021, 11:51 am I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.
We made our own new wine, per DC 89, 2 of the last 3 weeks for sacrament. Loved the experience.
This won’t be very alcoholic after 2 days, which is what we did...we aren’t adding yeast. Yeast may exist naturally on the grape skin, though.
It really felt more special to my family.
- Robin Hood
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
Thank you, I'll give it a go.4Joshua8 wrote: ↑March 15th, 2021, 12:31 pmrudimentary process. Took rinsed grapes, blended them for a few moments in blender to extract juice, ran through a metal strainer to remove the pulp, put in a mason jar with a cloth banded over the top, and put in cupboard until Sabbath. On Sabbath, we take the liquid from top and leave solids at bottom by gently pouring into sacrament cup.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 15th, 2021, 12:25 pmWhat did you do?4Joshua8 wrote: ↑March 15th, 2021, 12:24 pmRobin Hood wrote: ↑March 9th, 2021, 11:51 am I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.
We made our own new wine, per DC 89, 2 of the last 3 weeks for sacrament. Loved the experience.
This won’t be very alcoholic after 2 days, which is what we did...we aren’t adding yeast. Yeast may exist naturally on the grape skin, though.
It really felt more special to my family.
- nightlight
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
Prohibition was a major thing during Smith and Grant years. It wasn't a Mormon thing, it was more of an counterculture to the Western way of life. The national Anti-Saloon League got Grant completely on board and Mormons have never looked back.abijah` wrote: ↑March 15th, 2021, 12:20 pmYeah...nightlight wrote: ↑March 15th, 2021, 10:58 am Wine is not hard to make. It will end up with like 10% alcohol......Unless you use grapes that aren't ripe
Jesus drank wine with high alcohol content....the Jews knew how to make wine, but it still wasn't as good as the kind Jesus created
I dont get the alcohol percentage talk. A tiny cup of 5% or 15%, its not like it really matters when its such a small amount, its not like thats gonna get you tipsy or buzzed lol
And besides, I dont understand the reasoning behind "psychoactive = sinful", if something affects your mood it means its evil. The scriptures dont say this:
Psalm 104
You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth, and wine to gladden the heart of man
It's not a revelation thing... because anyone with scriptures can pick up in read that it's okay for us to drink wine and beer. It's a cultural trend that Mormons followed... but did not start with more Mormondom. Same with thing with bud.
- Cruiserdude
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
The things one can change or do differently to enhance the meaning of the sacrament are all fine and dandy.... the 'fruit' is what will tell us if we're on track....4Joshua8 wrote: ↑March 15th, 2021, 12:31 pmrudimentary process. Took rinsed grapes, blended them for a few moments in blender to extract juice, ran through a metal strainer to remove the pulp, put in a mason jar with a cloth banded over the top, and put in cupboard until Sabbath. On Sabbath, we take the liquid from top and leave solids at bottom by gently pouring into sacrament cup.Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 15th, 2021, 12:25 pmWhat did you do?4Joshua8 wrote: ↑March 15th, 2021, 12:24 pmRobin Hood wrote: ↑March 9th, 2021, 11:51 am I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.
We made our own new wine, per DC 89, 2 of the last 3 weeks for sacrament. Loved the experience.
This won’t be very alcoholic after 2 days, which is what we did...we aren’t adding yeast. Yeast may exist naturally on the grape skin, though.
It really felt more special to my family.
And looks like your changes bore 'good fruit' as reflected in your family's experience:
"It really felt more special to my family."
Well done, faithful head of your household
- nightlight
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
You have to wait at least a week for fermentation to start.... Fermentation is the symbol of the change man... Hence Jesus and His apostles using it in an ordinance that represents being born again
You don't need to get drunk lol ... grape juice is grape juice until fermentation starts
New wine doesn't = grape juice
Why do you think so many bright Christians were into alchemy?
You don't need to get drunk lol ... grape juice is grape juice until fermentation starts
New wine doesn't = grape juice
Why do you think so many bright Christians were into alchemy?
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- captain of 1,000
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
Yeah, it's a good point with "new wine" not necessarily meaning it was just barely crushed or juiced.nightlight wrote: ↑March 15th, 2021, 2:12 pm
You have to wait at least a week for fermentation to start....
You don't need to get drunk lol ... grape juice is grape juice until fermentation starts
New wine doesn't = grape juice
Why do you think so many bright Christians were into alchemy?
But "grape juice" doesn't ferment (unless you add yeast) because processing (for store-bought) intentionally kills the yeast such that the product normally won't turn into wine (assuming they killed off all the yeast successfully). My thinking was that at least I'm not killing off the yeast during my production, although I didn't let it finish fully developing.
Fermentation doesn't have to take a week to start, though, as I learned at home. Fermentation can start in a day or so, depending on different factors, like how much yeast is in it and the temperature.
- nightlight
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
4Joshua8 wrote: ↑March 15th, 2021, 2:49 pmYeah, it's a good point with "new wine" not necessarily meaning it was just barely crushed or juiced.nightlight wrote: ↑March 15th, 2021, 2:12 pm
You have to wait at least a week for fermentation to start....
You don't need to get drunk lol ... grape juice is grape juice until fermentation starts
New wine doesn't = grape juice
Why do you think so many bright Christians were into alchemy?
But "grape juice" doesn't ferment (unless you add yeast) because processing (for store-bought) intentionally kills the yeast such that the product normally won't turn into wine (assuming they killed off all the yeast successfully). My thinking was that at least I'm not killing off the yeast during my production, although I didn't let it finish fully developing.
Fermentation doesn't have to take a week to start, though, as I learned at home. Fermentation can start in a day or so, depending on different factors, like how much yeast is in it and the temperature.
I've only done this twice, but it definitely works.
Spring is here...I think I'll make sum wine once it get warm
I do love the spring!!!!
- nightlight
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
You don't need to add yeast...there's enough on the grapes and stems etc
oxygen will turn it into vinegar, interesting how they try to give it to Jesus on the cross... Wine mixed with the "world"....
oxygen will turn it into vinegar, interesting how they try to give it to Jesus on the cross... Wine mixed with the "world"....
- Silver Pie
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
I remember going to a fellowship meeting where there was wine for the adults who wanted it, and grape juice for teetotalers and children. One boy accidently picked up a cup of wine. He started to drink it, stopped, then quietly dumped it down the sink.
- Reluctant Watchman
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
So today we had sacrament in the mountains (with a few good friends) and performed a family first: unleavened bread and grape juice. We also read the sacrament prayers as dictated in the book of Moroni. I’ll do a post later on regarding unleavened bread, but the color and bitter/sweet notes of the Concord grape was beautiful to include as part of our communion with heaven. I’ll be studying up on how to make wine later this year.
- Silver Pie
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
I learned to make wine a few years ago by taking a class on it. It was very simple. (For example, a lot of people will tell you to use an air lock to let the gasses escape as the juice ferments, but a balloon with one or two pinholes in it will work just fine.) I haven't made it for a while, but when I move to a place where the consistency of the inside temperature can be trusted, I intend to try again. My experience is that it isn't very good before it has been sitting in the bottles for at least 6 months or longer (not that it tastes good after that unless you add a bunch of sugar). If you could have the same teachers I did, you would see that it really is simple. (I think they still live in the Provo/Orem area.)Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑August 15th, 2021, 9:00 pm So today we had sacrament in the mountains (with a few good friends) and performed a family first: unleavened bread and grape juice. We also read the sacrament prayers as dictated in the book of Moroni. I’ll do a post later on regarding unleavened bread, but the color and bitter/sweet notes of the Concord grape was beautiful to include as part of our communion with heaven. I’ll be studying up on how to make wine later this year.
- Reluctant Watchman
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
Thanks for the info. I have a neighbor that used to come and pick our grapes to make wine. I'm going to chat with him soon and see how he does it.Silver Pie wrote: ↑August 17th, 2021, 1:59 pmI learned to make wine a few years ago by taking a class on it. It was very simple. (For example, a lot of people will tell you to use an air lock to let the gasses escape as the juice ferments, but a balloon with one or two pinholes in it will work just fine.) I haven't made it for a while, but when I move to a place where the consistency of the inside temperature can be trusted, I intend to try again. My experience is that it isn't very good before it has been sitting in the bottles for at least 6 months or longer (not that it tastes good after that unless you add a bunch of sugar). If you could have the same teachers I did, you would see that it really is simple. (I think they still live in the Provo/Orem area.)Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑August 15th, 2021, 9:00 pm So today we had sacrament in the mountains (with a few good friends) and performed a family first: unleavened bread and grape juice. We also read the sacrament prayers as dictated in the book of Moroni. I’ll do a post later on regarding unleavened bread, but the color and bitter/sweet notes of the Concord grape was beautiful to include as part of our communion with heaven. I’ll be studying up on how to make wine later this year.
- Silver Pie
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
Cool, It's always a lot easier to have someone walk you through it than it is to read about it - at least for me.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑August 17th, 2021, 2:30 pm Thanks for the info. I have a neighbor that used to come and pick our grapes to make wine. I'm going to chat with him soon and see how he does it.
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- captain of 1,000
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
I think there is something to the alcohol killing germs as well.
Sharing a glass of wine for sacrament seems less risky then sharing a glass of water.
Sharing a glass of wine for sacrament seems less risky then sharing a glass of water.
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- captain of 100
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
Yes and no. The alcohol content of wine is based upon the yeast and the fermentation process. Ancient wines could not be selective in the yeast that they used. So they average between 6 and 8% alcohol content by volume.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑March 9th, 2021, 2:06 pmI think the wine of today is a little more potent than the wine of the past. (Not that a thimble would do anything.) Similar to the hops/beer that Joseph drank. Much lower alcohol content.Silas wrote: ↑March 9th, 2021, 1:40 pmWhy not just use actual wine?Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 9th, 2021, 11:51 am I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.
This is akin to some sweet wines, or most fruit wines you will find today.
Other wines with highly selected yeast for fermentation can produce between 10 to 12%
However, using certain methods, it was possible for ancient wine, especially religious ceremonial wine (referred to as good wine), to push and alcohol content of 14 to 18%. Which is actually higher than what we have now in general.
So even the wine and beer that Joseph Smith drink during his time was roughly 6 to 8% alcohol content.
The Dixie wine that was grown and produced by the Church in the 1850s and 60s average between six and 10% alcohol by volume from what I have read.
- Reluctant Watchman
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
So I visited with my wine-making neighbor this week. Making wine is really quite a fascinating process. I was surprised to find out that grape wine was actually not on his list of top favorites. In fact, I was surprised to find out that you can wine out of a large variety of fruits and plants.
- Reluctant Watchman
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
It's been a year since I last spent much time on this topic, but I was reminded of it again this past Sunday as our family drank concord grape juice for the sacrament. I think I'm going to do my next essay focusing on the significance of the sacrament and the bitter/sweet aspects of Christ's atoning sacrifice.
I know that what we drink/eat is simply a symbolic aspect of worship, but I do believe the things we use in that symbolism can help us connect to heaven in far more profound ways. Using blood-red wine really hits home the sacrificial aspects of Christ's suffering.
I know that what we drink/eat is simply a symbolic aspect of worship, but I do believe the things we use in that symbolism can help us connect to heaven in far more profound ways. Using blood-red wine really hits home the sacrificial aspects of Christ's suffering.
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- captain of 100
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
JSmith wrote: ↑March 9th, 2021, 2:22 pmReluctant Watchman wrote: ↑March 9th, 2021, 2:06 pmI think the wine of today is a little more potent than the wine of the past. (Not that a thimble would do anything.) Similar to the hops/beer that Joseph drank. Much lower alcohol content.Silas wrote: ↑March 9th, 2021, 1:40 pmWhy not just use actual wine?Robin Hood wrote: ↑March 9th, 2021, 11:51 am I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.
This is not 100% true. It’s a common argument made by members of the church. But it’s not totally true. In my office we do a number of projects with agricultural innovations and many of those specifically involve ventures and wineries throughout Appalachia Different wines have different potencies. So you have wine with everything from 5% alcohol to 17% alcohol. It just depends upon the type and make.
Ancient wine, like modern wine, is dependent upon the length and conditions of the fermentation process. The main difference between Roman and modern wines was likely their alcohol content, as both Greek and Roman wines likely had as high as 15% or 20% ABV, compared with 10-12% or so in most modern wines.
Other sources note that Roman wine could be very thick and had a great deal of viscous material to it that had to be watered down. So the traditional mix was two parts wine one part water so it’s possible that Roman wine didn’t reach 14+%, or was commonly about ~10 - 12+%.)
so depending upon the process is used in fermentation, modern wine is about on par with the estimates from the past.
And you are correct about beer. Modern beer is between 3% and higher. Whereas the dutch beer made by Brigham Young and consume by the early church was between 1% to 2.5%
Yeowza! So I lived in Italy, nye onto 6 years. What an experience. Everyone, who isn't Mormon, seems to make their own wine. I used to help my neighbor gather grapes and watched as they went through the process of making it. Really fun experience. During lunch all who were working on the farm we lived next to would eat and of course drink their homemade wine. They surely didn't have a problem with the idea of drinking during work but the children did too. The glass was about 1/4 to 1/3 full and then filled with water. Interestingly I can't remember ever seeing a lush, but then maybe they were just good at hiding it. I tried that stuff and like most Mormons I have to say, I'd never be a good drinker. That stuff is just nasty.
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- captain of 1,000
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Re: The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine
I for one, would love to have a beer with Jesus. Like the country song.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑March 15th, 2021, 7:37 amAll I know is that Christ is drinking wine when He comes back with Moroni and Elias.Cruiserdude wrote: ↑March 15th, 2021, 7:32 am D&C 27
2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins.
5 Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim;
6 And also with Elias, to whom I have committed the keys of bringing to pass the restoration of all things spoken by the mouth of all the holy prophets since the world began, concerning the last days;