The bitter and the sweet of sacramental wine

[Reluctant Watchman]

My daughter and I were discussing the sacrament and how Christ and the early church used wine. I spoke of the significance of the color, but then my daughter said something quite profound. She said, "Oh, so drinking wine is also bitter and sweet."

Due to church adjustments, we no longer have this visceral experience. I lament a little the fact that we don't use wine, typical of the day, for the sacrament; if for the simple reason that we don't get that very literal taste of the "bitter" and the "sweet" that represents the sacrifice of our Savior.

[Robin Hood]

I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.

[JK4Woods]

I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.

That would be a shock to most members.
Like wearing a colored shirt to church on Sunday...

[Reluctant Watchman]

I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.

My kids really want to do it. I have some concord grape juice we made. Set it out a few weeks and we'd have the real deal.

[John Tavner]

I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.

I've done it. I used a kosher brand.

[Silas]

I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.

Why not just use actual wine?

[Reluctant Watchman]

I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.

Why not just use actual wine?

I think the wine of today is a little more potent than the wine of the past. (Not that a thimble would do anything.) Similar to the hops/beer that Joseph drank. Much lower alcohol content.

[EmmaLee]

I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.

Why not just use actual wine?

I think the wine of today is a little more potent than the wine of the past. (Not that a thimble would do anything.) Similar to the hops/beer that Joseph drank. Much lower alcohol content.

Agreed. That's why in Sec. 89 it says - 6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

If we want to drink wine for the sacrament, it should be wine we ourselves have made - not that that's an easy task, from what I've heard. But we'd know exactly what's in it, as opposed to the store bought kind, of whom conspiring men have taken control. Best to leave that alone, IMO.

[Reluctant Watchman]

If we want to drink wine for the sacrament, it should be wine we ourselves have made - not that that's an easy task, from what I've heard. But we'd know exactly what's in it, as opposed to the store bought kind, of whom conspiring men have taken control. Best to leave that alone, IMO.

I have a neighbor who is very proficient at it. I may have to ask for some tips.

[JSmith]

I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.

Why not just use actual wine?

I think the wine of today is a little more potent than the wine of the past. (Not that a thimble would do anything.) Similar to the hops/beer that Joseph drank. Much lower alcohol content.

This is not 100% true. It’s a common argument made by members of the church. But it’s not totally true. In my office we do a number of projects with agricultural innovations and many of those specifically involve ventures and wineries throughout Appalachia Different wines have different potencies. So you have wine with everything from 5% alcohol to 17% alcohol. It just depends upon the type and make.

Ancient wine, like modern wine, is dependent upon the length and conditions of the fermentation process. The main difference between Roman and modern wines was likely their alcohol content, as both Greek and Roman wines likely had as high as 15% or 20% ABV, compared with 10-12% or so in most modern wines.

Other sources note that Roman wine could be very thick and had a great deal of viscous material to it that had to be watered down. So the traditional mix was two parts wine one part water so it’s possible that Roman wine didn’t reach 14+%, or was commonly about ~10 - 12+%.)

so depending upon the process is used in fermentation, modern wine is about on par with the estimates from the past.

And you are correct about beer. Modern beer is between 3% and higher. Whereas the dutch beer made by Brigham Young and consume by the early church was between 1% to 2.5%

[Reluctant Watchman]

I think the wine of today is a little more potent than the wine of the past. (Not that a thimble would do anything.) Similar to the hops/beer that Joseph drank. Much lower alcohol content.

This is not 100% true. It’s a common argument made by members of the church. But it’s not totally true. In my office we do a number of projects with agricultural innovations and many of those specifically involve ventures and wineries throughout Appalachia Different wines have different potencies. So you have wine with everything from 5% alcohol to 17% alcohol. It just depends upon the type and make.

Ancient wine, like modern wine, is dependent upon the length and conditions of the fermentation process. The main difference between Roman and modern wines was likely their alcohol content, as both Greek and Roman wines likely had as high as 15% or 20% ABV, compared with 10-12% or so in most modern wines.

Other sources note that Roman wine could be very thick and had a great deal of viscous material to it that had to be watered down. So the traditional mix was two parts wine one part water so it’s possible that Roman wine didn’t reach 14+%, or was commonly about ~10 - 12+%.)

so depending upon the process is used in fermentation, modern wine is about on par with the estimates from the past.

And you are correct about beer. Modern beer is between 3% and higher. Whereas the dutch beer made by Brigham Young and consume by the early church was between 1% to 2.5%

JSmith, you have officially been crowned "Winemaker" for LDSFF. Hahah. In all honesty, the insights are intriguing.

[JSmith]

I think the wine of today is a little more potent than the wine of the past. (Not that a thimble would do anything.) Similar to the hops/beer that Joseph drank. Much lower alcohol content.

This is not 100% true. It’s a common argument made by members of the church. But it’s not totally true. In my office we do a number of projects with agricultural innovations and many of those specifically involve ventures and wineries throughout Appalachia Different wines have different potencies. So you have wine with everything from 5% alcohol to 17% alcohol. It just depends upon the type and make.

Ancient wine, like modern wine, is dependent upon the length and conditions of the fermentation process. The main difference between Roman and modern wines was likely their alcohol content, as both Greek and Roman wines likely had as high as 15% or 20% ABV, compared with 10-12% or so in most modern wines.

Other sources note that Roman wine could be very thick and had a great deal of viscous material to it that had to be watered down. So the traditional mix was two parts wine one part water so it’s possible that Roman wine didn’t reach 14+%, or was commonly about ~10 - 12+%.)

so depending upon the process is used in fermentation, modern wine is about on par with the estimates from the past.

And you are correct about beer. Modern beer is between 3% and higher. Whereas the dutch beer made by Brigham Young and consume by the early church was between 1% to 2.5%

JSmith, you have officially been crowned "Winemaker" for LDSFF. Hahah. In all honesty, the insights are intriguing.

I accept such a title

Honestly though. Winemaking is an ancient tradition and in other areas the world it is a art form in and of itself.

It is fascinating to go back and look at the historic processes they used and realized that in many cultures it is a family tradition dating back hundreds of years of accumulated knowledge and practice.

That is why when Brigham Young started the Dixie wine mission, he actually sent missionaries to Europe to find winemakers that would come to Utah and produce wine for the church.

And Dixie wine was renowned as being incredibly good. And it was sought after by people coming through the West on the way to California.

There is a very good article about it that you can find online if you Google the Dixie one mission.

So it is fair to say that I am an aficionado of the history and art behind it.

[tmac]

Although it would really be nice to have some real wine of one's own make, for that purpose, for most people that may not be very practical.

As one who has already been down this whole rabbit hole, all I can say is that in terms of symbolism and effect (and I don't mean intoxicating effect), aside from color, there is really no comparison whatsoever between grape juice and most real wine. Anyone who has had any significant amount of experience with it will know what I'm talking about. And any other concerns about any possible intoxicating effect of having a very small cup of wine with sacrament are completely unfounded.

My only other hint is a story about a life-long LDS friend of mine who buys and sells trucks. One of the trucks he bought had a bottle of wine in it, so he thought he'd try it, just to kind of educate himself. His reaction was "if that's what wine tastes like, there's no chance of me ever becoming a wino."

[Reluctant Watchman]

My only other hint is a story about a life-long LDS friend of mine who buys and sells trucks. One of the trucks he bought had a bottle of wine in it, so he thought he'd try it, just to kind of educate himself. His reaction was "if that's what wine tastes like, there's no chance of me ever becoming a wino."

As kids, we'd find discarded beer bottles on the side of the road doing clean up. Boy that stuff smelled bad. I'm sure the real stuff doesn't smell like that, but it was enough to make me question as a kid why anyone would even start.

[FoundMyEden]

My only other hint is a story about a life-long LDS friend of mine who buys and sells trucks. One of the trucks he bought had a bottle of wine in it, so he thought he'd try it, just to kind of educate himself. His reaction was "if that's what wine tastes like, there's no chance of me ever becoming a wino."

As kids, we'd find discarded beer bottles on the side of the road doing clean up. Boy that stuff smelled bad. I'm sure the real stuff doesn't smell like that, but it was enough to make me question as a kid why anyone would even start.

It's kind of the same with any drink or food...it's in the preparation.

[Reluctant Watchman]

This thread originally started with the sacramental wine, but I've now been pondering the bread. Does anyone know if Joseph Smith used unleavened bread in the early history of the church?

Unleavened bread was used during Passover, in part, due to the rush in which the children of Israel had in leaving Egypt. They cooked with bread without leavening. This same unleavened bread was used during the Last Supper. In doing a little digging the use of a leavening agent signifies sin. So when did we make the switch in modern day?

[BeNotDeceived]

This thread originally started with the sacramental wine, but I've now been pondering the bread. Does anyone know if Joseph Smith used unleavened bread in the early history of the church?

Unleavened bread was used during Passover, in part, due to the rush in which the children of Israel had in leaving Egypt. They cooked with bread without leavening. This same unleavened bread was used during the Last Supper. In doing a little digging the use of a leavening agent signifies sin. So when did we make the switch in modern day?

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=40690&p=1098771&hi ... h#p1098771

[Reluctant Watchman]

This thread originally started with the sacramental wine, but I've now been pondering the bread. Does anyone know if Joseph Smith used unleavened bread in the early history of the church?

Unleavened bread was used during Passover, in part, due to the rush in which the children of Israel had in leaving Egypt. They cooked with bread without leavening. This same unleavened bread was used during the Last Supper. In doing a little digging the use of a leavening agent signifies sin. So when did we make the switch in modern day?

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=40690&p=1098771&hi ... h#p1098771

Thanks. I've read that a few times. Still pondering.

[BeNotDeceived]

I'm seriously thinking of using red grape juice for the sacrament this coming Sunday.

That would be a shock to most members.
Like wearing a colored shirt to church on Sunday...

Thar ya go man

[Cruiserdude]

D&C 27
2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins.

[Reluctant Watchman]

D&C 27
2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins.

All I know is that Christ is drinking wine when He comes back with Moroni and Elias.

5 Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim;

6 And also with Elias, to whom I have committed the keys of bringing to pass the restoration of all things spoken by the mouth of all the holy prophets since the world began, concerning the last days;

[Cruiserdude]

D&C 27
2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins.

All I know is that Christ is drinking wine when He comes back with Moroni and Elias.

5 Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim;

6 And also with Elias, to whom I have committed the keys of bringing to pass the restoration of all things spoken by the mouth of all the holy prophets since the world began, concerning the last days;

Wow. What an experience that would be.

[DJB]

Just drink non alcoholic red wine for the sacrament. That’s what I do at home. Not confident with making my own yet. Harmons should still sell it, if you’re in Utah.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Wow. What an experience that would be.

Agreed. The list of invitees to that sacrament meeting (D&C 27) is quite impressive. Currently, the Lord only highlights the men, but I believe there will be many prophetesses there as well.

[ajax]

A few observations:

1-I have no problem purchasing wine. Most wine makers are honest and competent and just want to put out a good product. Find a local winery and visit it.

2-RE The idea of wine "back in the day" being less strong. Not unless the laws of chemistry have changed. Sure you can have less alcohol vs more, but Jesus had no problem serving the "good" stuff. John 2:9-10: When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now."

3-YES, tasting the bitter and sweet is part of the symbolism, as well as the color, Consider also a cheery heart at the end is also part of the symbolism (you know, a small buzz)

4-Don't skimp on portions Have at least a full cup of wine and the handful of bread. The sacrament is to be enjoyed, not economized. A full cup of wine also adds the additional symbolism of enduring the entire portion of the bitter cup, as Jesus did.