BYU Raynbow day 3/4/21

[Alexander]

"Marginalizing and persecuting people based on age, gender, nationality, religious preference, sexual orientation, or anything else is evil and horrifying." - M. Russell Ballard

"No unclean thing can enter my presence." - God (marginalizer)

"Celestial (Father's Presence), Terrestrial (marginalized), Telestial (marginalized), Outer Darkness (marginalized), temporal mortality (marginalized)...

God is going to destroy everything telestial heading into the millennium.

God marginalizes, which is a reason why we preach repentance...

Alma 42
14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.

marginalize, transitive verb:
To relegate or confine to a lower or outer limit or edge, as of social standing.

KRINOS, κρίνω:
to separate, to make a distinction between; to judge, decide

[samizdat]

Wow...have times changed...

Fifteen years ago BYU would never have allowed for this sort of thing.

[mudflap]

hint: "heterosexual" is a sexual orientation, just saying. I feel like BYU is marginalizing heterosexuals. It feels like a

gut punch

, to quote Jonathon Whitmore

[gradles21]

Prop 8 was only 13 years ago, what happened to our church?

[nightlight]

The church won't perform gay marriage until they're federally mandated to(which I don't think is likely to happen before the usa goes boom)
Once a "law" is passed , they'll bend the knee waving the 12th Article of Faith to save face.

[Serragon]

Prop 8 was only 13 years ago, what happened to our church?

The Backlash from Prop 8 happened. Everything since then has been an active effort to get the world to love us.

[Alexander]

The church won't perform gay marriage until they're federally mandated to(which I don't think is likely to happen before the usa goes boom)
Once a "law" is passed , they'll bend the knee waving the 12th Article of Faith to save face.

I dunno man. If this Equality Act passes, the church is screwed.

[samizdat]

Prop 8 was only 13 years ago, what happened to our church?

The Backlash from Prop 8 happened. Everything since then has been an active effort to get the world to love us.

I am not so sure that that is the case. The world is going in many different directions at once. Neither of them towards the truth.

[FreedomJess]

Prop 8 was only 13 years ago, what happened to our church?

Amen. I lived in SoCal during Prop 8. We canvassed neighborhoods.. all the local churches were so impressed with the Mormons (that’s what we used to call ourselves) because we already had neighborhoods mapped out, thanks to our organized stakes and wards. It was quite the missionary experience. Now look at us... only people that are for gay marriage would ever join our church now. We are officially a progressive church. We don’t even have an identity anymore. We are not peculiar.
The only thing I remember about my business degree is that a company or organization has to have an identity: Walmart=cheapest, Target=higher end/quality, Kmart=Neither the cheapest or best quality. Therefore it went out of business.
What is our identity anymore?!

[tribrac]

Prop 8 was only 13 years ago, what happened to our church?

Oh haven't you heard? The church never supported Prop 8. A few well intentioned members did but not the church. And later they apologized to the people they hurt.

[Serragon]

Prop 8 was only 13 years ago, what happened to our church?

The Backlash from Prop 8 happened. Everything since then has been an active effort to get the world to love us.

I am not so sure that that is the case. The world is going in many different directions at once. Neither of them towards the truth.

This was the pivotal moment.

The leaders felt they were exercising their civic rights in a politically appropriate fashion. They were shocked by the magnitude and the viciousness of the response. The Activists, media, and government officials colluded in CA to terrorize those who supported the amendment, and our leaders were caught flat footed by the vitriol and intensity of the push back. This had never happened before. We had been criticized, but not like this.

Rather than fight back, our leaders chose appeasement and a softening of the message. This is the mistake we are continuing to pay for and see perpetuated in our current church. The "I'm a mormon" campaign and motion picture began in 2010 letting the world know we were diverse and all opinions and ideas were welcome. President Packer had a conference talk rewritten in 2010 because it was deemed insensitive to homosexuals. Gifts to homosexual groups and invitations to perform hand in hand with church groups followed. Finally a change in doctrine on homosexuality itself as being a sin. We now message that we just need to "love better" and that "there is a place for all in the church". We now seek to appease and serve the world its leaders at nearly every turn.

The 2008 prop 8 was the pivotal moment for the church, and so far it appears they have chosen to appease the world rather than stand for truth and righteousness.

[Serragon]

What is our identity anymore?!

It makes me sick that a man can make out with his boyfriend every day and be a temple worthy member in good standing while a man who drinks a cup of coffee in the morning can't even get baptized.

What do we stand for? I'm not really sure.

It seems we can still judge and marginalize those who have no protection from the progressive mobs. But as soon as a principle brings us public shame from the great and spacious building, we retreat to a position of redefining sin and love to appease the world.

Those of us who have never deviated from the Gospel principles that have existed from Adam until 2008 find ourselves in a strange position. We went to bed one night defending eternal Godly principles, but we woke up in apparent opposition to those same principles.

I had always thought that the purpose of a prophet was to cry repentance and help us stand fast to Godly principles in an increasingly wicked and spiritually dangerous world. But it seems that instead they are there to let us know when our seemingly capricious God has yet again done a 180 on some eternal principle. When our never changing God from the scriptures seems to be morphing into one of the fickle Greek or Roman dieties who defines righteousness as indulgence and worship of their particular representative natural human vice, we have problems.

[CosmicMind]

The church won't perform gay marriage until they're federally mandated to(which I don't think is likely to happen before the usa goes boom)
Once a "law" is passed , they'll bend the knee waving the 12th Article of Faith to save face.

I dunno man. If this Equality Act passes, the church is screwed.

Good, I hope it passes. The sooner it burns down the faster we can get on with rebuilding or fighting.

When the church caves it's going to be real interesting. Better sooner rather than later.

[CosmicMind]

Prop 8 was only 13 years ago, what happened to our church?

The Backlash from Prop 8 happened. Everything since then has been an active effort to get the world to love us.

I am not so sure that that is the case. The world is going in many different directions at once. Neither of them towards the truth.

This was the pivotal moment.

The leaders felt they were exercising their civic rights in a politically appropriate fashion. They were shocked by the magnitude and the viciousness of the response. The Activists, media, and government officials colluded in CA to terrorize those who supported the amendment, and our leaders were caught flat footed by the vitriol and intensity of the push back. This had never happened before. We had been criticized, but not like this.

Rather than fight back, our leaders chose appeasement and a softening of the message. This is the mistake we are continuing to pay for and see perpetuated in our current church. The "I'm a mormon" campaign and motion picture began in 2010 letting the world know we were diverse and all opinions and ideas were welcome. President Packer had a conference talk rewritten in 2010 because it was deemed insensitive to homosexuals. Gifts to homosexual groups and invitations to perform hand in hand with church groups followed. Finally a change in doctrine on homosexuality itself as being a sin. We now message that we just need to "love better" and that "there is a place for all in the church". We now seek to appease and serve the world its leaders at nearly every turn.

The 2008 prop 8 was the pivotal moment for the church, and so far it appears they have chosen to appease the world rather than stand for truth and righteousness.

They were "shocked", I don't have any sympathy for then. What did they think was going to happen?

Does the devil just go quitely into the night?

[Serragon]

The Backlash from Prop 8 happened. Everything since then has been an active effort to get the world to love us.

I am not so sure that that is the case. The world is going in many different directions at once. Neither of them towards the truth.

This was the pivotal moment.

The leaders felt they were exercising their civic rights in a politically appropriate fashion. They were shocked by the magnitude and the viciousness of the response. The Activists, media, and government officials colluded in CA to terrorize those who supported the amendment, and our leaders were caught flat footed by the vitriol and intensity of the push back. This had never happened before. We had been criticized, but not like this.

Rather than fight back, our leaders chose appeasement and a softening of the message. This is the mistake we are continuing to pay for and see perpetuated in our current church. The "I'm a mormon" campaign and motion picture began in 2010 letting the world know we were diverse and all opinions and ideas were welcome. President Packer had a conference talk rewritten in 2010 because it was deemed insensitive to homosexuals. Gifts to homosexual groups and invitations to perform hand in hand with church groups followed. Finally a change in doctrine on homosexuality itself as being a sin. We now message that we just need to "love better" and that "there is a place for all in the church". We now seek to appease and serve the world its leaders at nearly every turn.

The 2008 prop 8 was the pivotal moment for the church, and so far it appears they have chosen to appease the world rather than stand for truth and righteousness.

They were "shocked", I don't have any sympathy for then. What did they think was going to happen?

Does the devil just go quitely into the night?

I hear you.

But remember that in 2008, many people in urban or suburban blue areas were able to put stickers on their cars or have yard signs advocating for marriage being legally defined as man/woman. there was very little personal blow back. It was considered an opposing opinion, not a mark of Nazism. Cancel culture was in its infancy. In addition, a large majority of the people supported outlawing same sex marriage, even in the most blue of states like CA, OR, and WA. I understand why they were caught off guard. They thought it would go similarly to how all of their political endeavors had gone since the end of WWII.

The vicious and personal nature of the response was shocking. As was the onslaught of pro-gay propaganda meant to change peoples minds. This was the beginning of the movement to stop talking about the disgusting act itself and begin talking about it as love. They removed the sex from homosexuality and made it all about emotions. This worked well, as we are now 13 years removed and the vast majority now support SSM.

Shocked or not, their response has been disappointing. I think they thought they were being very clever when they came up with the idea that we won't condemn homosexuality, but the sexual act itself. And since God doesn't condone the act, we can still be against homosexuality. Unfortunately, this clever end around has caused us no end of problems, as the only thing standing in the way of homosexual sex being accepted is a statement by the First presidency. This only served to increase the pressure both from within and without the church, as this pressure has proven to be successful in the past. This pressure will continue to increase until the First Presidency gives way to their demands, as we have seen very little to indicate they will begin pushing back on those members of the church who are advocating for this acceptance of sin.

[RoseofSharon]

Who do these guys think they're kidding? This is nothing but a cheap and superficial attempt to use your own religion against you.

And this whole thing isn't about "homosexuality" anyway, anymore than feminism was about women. This is all represents a political movement whose sole goal is to dismember the family. It is all politics.

[Cruiserdude]

The church won't perform gay marriage until they're federally mandated to(which I don't think is likely to happen before the usa goes boom)
Once a "law" is passed , they'll bend the knee waving the 12th Article of Faith to save face.

You think they will do gay marriage for time in temples BEFORE they would do gay sealings? I had a terrible thought that what if gov comes down on em like they did with virus and vax garb, telling leaders to push those things with their membership, and then they had the audacity to do it. To tell us to mask up and to get the vax if we cared about our brother(what garbage).
But what if gov tells church they have to do gay marriages and so the church appeases to them and allows gay for time marriage in temple.... Anyway that flies?
I still can't even see them allowing any gay marriage in there but I'm a horrible seer

[Serragon]

The church won't perform gay marriage until they're federally mandated to(which I don't think is likely to happen before the usa goes boom)
Once a "law" is passed , they'll bend the knee waving the 12th Article of Faith to save face.

You think they will do gay marriage for time in temples BEFORE they would do gay sealings? I had a terrible thought that what if gov comes down on em like they did with virus and vax garb, telling leaders to push those things with their membership, and then they had the audacity to do it. To tell us to mask up and to get the vax if we cared about our brother(what garbage).
But what if gov tells church they have to do gay marriages and so the church appeases to them and allows gay for time marriage in temple.... Anyway that flies?
I still can't even see them allowing any gay marriage in there but I'm a horrible seer

In the future, the church will simply stop performing marriages in temples and will only perform sealings. In many countries, this already occurs as they are legally not allowed to perform the marriages in the temple.

The church recently removed the restriction of having to wait 1 year to be sealed in the temple if you were married civilly outside the temple. This change was to pave the way for the eventual removal of weddings in the temple.

[FoundMyEden]

Is that John Dehlin?

But of course!

[CosmicMind]

The church won't perform gay marriage until they're federally mandated to(which I don't think is likely to happen before the usa goes boom)
Once a "law" is passed , they'll bend the knee waving the 12th Article of Faith to save face.

You think they will do gay marriage for time in temples BEFORE they would do gay sealings? I had a terrible thought that what if gov comes down on em like they did with virus and vax garb, telling leaders to push those things with their membership, and then they had the audacity to do it. To tell us to mask up and to get the vax if we cared about our brother(what garbage).
But what if gov tells church they have to do gay marriages and so the church appeases to them and allows gay for time marriage in temple.... Anyway that flies?
I still can't even see them allowing any gay marriage in there but I'm a horrible seer

In the future, the church will simply stop performing marriages in temples and will only perform sealings. In many countries, this already occurs as they are legally not allowed to perform the marriages in the temple.

The church recently removed the restriction of having to wait 1 year to be sealed in the temple if you were married civilly outside the temple. This change was to pave the way for the eventual removal of weddings in the temple.

I'm convinced homosexuals will be sealed in the temple.

But they won't be sealed, the temple will be shut to them.

God protects His mysteries, going to nice shining building and saying some nice words isn't a sealing.

[Cruiserdude]

The church won't perform gay marriage until they're federally mandated to(which I don't think is likely to happen before the usa goes boom)
Once a "law" is passed , they'll bend the knee waving the 12th Article of Faith to save face.

You think they will do gay marriage for time in temples BEFORE they would do gay sealings? I had a terrible thought that what if gov comes down on em like they did with virus and vax garb, telling leaders to push those things with their membership, and then they had the audacity to do it. To tell us to mask up and to get the vax if we cared about our brother(what garbage).
But what if gov tells church they have to do gay marriages and so the church appeases to them and allows gay for time marriage in temple.... Anyway that flies?
I still can't even see them allowing any gay marriage in there but I'm a horrible seer

In the future, the church will simply stop performing marriages in temples and will only perform sealings. In many countries, this already occurs as they are legally not allowed to perform the marriages in the temple.

The church recently removed the restriction of having to wait 1 year to be sealed in the temple if you were married civilly outside the temple. This change was to pave the way for the eventual removal of weddings in the temple.

Ahhhh, yeah okay, I follow you.

I guess maybe a better question would be, is there anything we wouldn’t cave to? I thought the line would be drawn at gay sealing but maybe not. Is there a line anywhere? Or are we pretty much stuck having to 'adjust' our doctrines when Babylon demands it of us?

I feel bad for those that fought that hard fight in Cali with prop 8 just to get crapped on a decade later....we don't look good when we bend to Babylon, but I do accept that the Brethren are human and can err, I understand. But stillWhat a time to be alive. Our testimony better be rooted in Christ because everything is fallible. EVERYTHING.

[Cruiserdude]

The church won't perform gay marriage until they're federally mandated to(which I don't think is likely to happen before the usa goes boom)
Once a "law" is passed , they'll bend the knee waving the 12th Article of Faith to save face.

You think they will do gay marriage for time in temples BEFORE they would do gay sealings? I had a terrible thought that what if gov comes down on em like they did with virus and vax garb, telling leaders to push those things with their membership, and then they had the audacity to do it. To tell us to mask up and to get the vax if we cared about our brother(what garbage).
But what if gov tells church they have to do gay marriages and so the church appeases to them and allows gay for time marriage in temple.... Anyway that flies?
I still can't even see them allowing any gay marriage in there but I'm a horrible seer

In the future, the church will simply stop performing marriages in temples and will only perform sealings. In many countries, this already occurs as they are legally not allowed to perform the marriages in the temple.

The church recently removed the restriction of having to wait 1 year to be sealed in the temple if you were married civilly outside the temple. This change was to pave the way for the eventual removal of weddings in the temple.

I'm convinced homosexuals will be sealed in the temple.

But they won't be sealed, the temple will be shut to them.

God protects His mysteries, going to nice shining building and saying some nice words isn't a sealing.

Maybe one of the temple workers that day crosses his fingers behind his back while it's happening in real time and that voids it?

[CosmicMind]

You think they will do gay marriage for time in temples BEFORE they would do gay sealings? I had a terrible thought that what if gov comes down on em like they did with virus and vax garb, telling leaders to push those things with their membership, and then they had the audacity to do it. To tell us to mask up and to get the vax if we cared about our brother(what garbage).
But what if gov tells church they have to do gay marriages and so the church appeases to them and allows gay for time marriage in temple.... Anyway that flies?
I still can't even see them allowing any gay marriage in there but I'm a horrible seer

In the future, the church will simply stop performing marriages in temples and will only perform sealings. In many countries, this already occurs as they are legally not allowed to perform the marriages in the temple.

The church recently removed the restriction of having to wait 1 year to be sealed in the temple if you were married civilly outside the temple. This change was to pave the way for the eventual removal of weddings in the temple.

I'm convinced homosexuals will be sealed in the temple.

But they won't be sealed, the temple will be shut to them.

God protects His mysteries, going to nice shining building and saying some nice words isn't a sealing.

Maybe one of the temple workers that day crosses his fingers behind his back while it's happening in real time and that voids it?

Lol good one

[nightlight]

The church won't perform gay marriage until they're federally mandated to(which I don't think is likely to happen before the usa goes boom)
Once a "law" is passed , they'll bend the knee waving the 12th Article of Faith to save face.

You think they will do gay marriage for time in temples BEFORE they would do gay sealings? I had a terrible thought that what if gov comes down on em like they did with virus and vax garb, telling leaders to push those things with their membership, and then they had the audacity to do it. To tell us to mask up and to get the vax if we cared about our brother(what garbage).
But what if gov tells church they have to do gay marriages and so the church appeases to them and allows gay for time marriage in temple.... Anyway that flies?
I still can't even see them allowing any gay marriage in there but I'm a horrible seer

I'm strictly speaking of sealing. If the Government ever got to the point where they'd force Mormons to do perform any marriage ordinances....it's going to be real mormon marriages (sealings) .
Imo
If we ever get to that point...the silk gloves will be off, all pretense will be gone. But our country is too big and citizens our too armed for these types of mandates. It will be brother vs brother before we would reach that point.

I just look at world war II and Nazi Germany on how Mormon leadership will respond to government sponsored atrocities

[Sunain]

I'm strictly speaking of sealing. If the Government ever got to the point where they'd force Mormons to do perform any marriage ordinances....it's going to be real mormon marriages (sealings) .

I think where we'll be saved is that we make a distinction between civil marriages, which are controlled by the government and temple sealings, something the government can have no control over. The church will just get out of the civil marriage business completely and just require members to present a marriage certificate during the sealing application process.