LDS Freedom Forum

Gerald Celente says it will get violent, including a tax revolt -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nJ7LM3iyNg

I have seen that video before. My fear is that he is correct. Violence is assured!

kathyn wrote:I have seen that video before. My fear is that he is correct. Violence is assured!

My gut feeling is that this one is the one that is supposed to make the Great Depression look like the proverbial sunday school picnic. I have not heard anyone talk about bring home our industries from over seas. Allowing all of our industry to flee the country is part of the reason we are in this predicament. It is part of the reason people can't afford their mortgages and both spouses often have to work. For our nation to prosper, we must produce value added products that people want. Furthermore, it makes us more self sufficient and makes our enemies less powerful. We have really empowered our communist enemies in China by sending all of our factories over there and buying from them. We have sold them the rope that they will hang us with.

Sorry, it is very late and I am rambling .

For our nation to prosper

M249Gunner: The Book of Mormon told us what we must do....but the people refuse. What's happening now is the result of the great decay of our nation's morality and betrayal of God and His laws.

What's happening now is the result of the great decay of our nation's morality and betrayal of God and His laws.

Exactly right Kathyn. That is why the Brethren spend their precious time talking to us about repentence and morality and purity and charity and service and on and on and do not spend that time talking about the federal reserve and the economy and the Rockefellers and the NWO and the North American Union and income taxes and on and on.

Mark wrote:

What's happening now is the result of the great decay of our nation's morality and betrayal of God and His laws.

Exactly right Kathyn. That is why the Brethren spend their precious time talking to us about repentence and morality and purity and charity and service and on and on and do not spend that time talking about the federal reserve and the economy and the Rockefellers and the NWO and the North American Union and income taxes and on and on.

As you say, Mark. Is that not why the new head of the Church's paper arm's length company is an ex Federal Reserve comrade?

Kathyn and Mark, I hear what you say, but I cannot accept your position without clarification. Is the issue of morality and purity a higher law than the issue of liberty and freedom?

Is one law inward, and the other outward, or are they both both?

Do the rules governing "morality and purity" ever change? Do the rules regarding liberty and freedom ever change?

Is it permissible to lose our "morality and purity" to remain free?
Is it permissible to lose our freedom to remain "moral and pure"?

I am behind you 100% on that statement, Mark

Ithink, The Book of Mormon is clear in this subject. It is the pride of the people and their unwillingness to keep God's commandments as a whole that lead to the downfall of the nation. All of the smaller matters, such as NWO, gadianton robbers etc are just fruits of their disobedience. Mark is getting to the root of the problem.

Thankfully, we can be "washed from the blood and sins of this generation". What a blessing!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washing_and_anointing

I agree, yet disagree. Is not freedom and the right to choose our own destiny the whole issue that started this mortal state with the war in heaven to begin with? I don't know that I would say one set path is better than the other, maybe one path makes more sense at any given time, but both are very worthy of our attention. Those that choose to fight for freedom are doing what God commands from day one, those that choose to devote all their attention to missionary work are also doing the right thing, those that do both are also stretching the extra mile. The leaders most likely understand that they must spend their time in certain courses of action, but just like they encouraged Cleon Skousen to educate and teach others, I'm sure they are fine with members fighting for the same causes that we fought for in the war in heaven.

Is the issue of morality and purity a higher law than the issue of liberty and freedom?

I don't see why this is either/or. I see it more as "and". Morality and freedom.

Purity and morality is the goal (to have Christlike attributes). Freedom and liberty (agency) is a means to accomplish that. Gaining Christlike attributes and becoming clean from sin is the higher law. You cannot become perfect although you attain total freedom but do not attain purity and morality. You can, however, still attain perfection even if you never achieve freedom from oppressive men or your government. This statement will cause quite the stir from some of the "patriots" on this board but do not lose sight of your real goal.

I agree with you, lamanite. The righteous have always suffered an induced bondage created by the persecution which is constantly being handed out by those who follow Satan. Sometimes that lack of freedom is the trial we are required to go through for Christ's sake. That lack of freedom can be the means whereby we are humbled and come unto Christ.

pritchet1 wrote:Thankfully, we can be "washed from the blood and sins of this generation". What a blessing!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washing_and_anointing

That article had a lot of inaccuracies.

Pritchet, do you think that is all you have to do to be "washed from the blood and sins of this generation"?

If so, I would recommend going back this week and listen a little closer.

lamanite wrote:Purity and morality is the goal (to have Christlike attributes). Freedom and liberty (agency) is a means to accomplish that. Gaining Christlike attributes and becoming clean from sin is the higher law. You cannot become perfect although you attain total freedom but do not attain purity and morality. You can, however, still attain perfection even if you never achieve freedom from oppressive men or your government. This statement will cause quite the stir from some of the "patriots" on this board but do not lose sight of your real goal.

Higher than what decided if you got a body or not? Higher than what led to a war in Heaven? Higher than something our Father thought so important that he kicked (permanently) out of His house a third of His children?

Don't get me wrong, it is very important, but it is agency that is called the weightier matter of the law by modern Prophets.

Wikipedia is open to corrections. Why not make them? But do not use the temple ordinance controlled documents. I'm guessing the "inaccuracies" are there for a purpose.

Just sayin'. The Blessings we have been promised in the temple are real as long as we keep the covenants we make there (in response to; "Is that all we have to do").

Mahonri wrote:

lamanite wrote:Purity and morality is the goal (to have Christlike attributes). Freedom and liberty (agency) is a means to accomplish that. Gaining Christlike attributes and becoming clean from sin is the higher law. You cannot become perfect although you attain total freedom but do not attain purity and morality. You can, however, still attain perfection even if you never achieve freedom from oppressive men or your government. This statement will cause quite the stir from some of the "patriots" on this board but do not lose sight of your real goal.

Higher than what decided if you got a body or not? Higher than what led to a war in Heaven? Higher than something our Father thought so important that he kicked (permanently) out of His house a third of His children?

Don't get me wrong, it is very important, but it is agency that is called the weightier matter of the law by modern Prophets.

Nobody will argue that agency was one of the main reasons in the War in Heaven. But is is false doctrine that the War in Heaven was only about the issue of Free Agency. The real reason 1/3rd of the hosts of heaven was cast out was because of Rebellion to the Father's plan. Look up the War in Heaven in the Bible Dictionary and it is clear that there were other issues involved including agency, who would be the appointed Savior, and how to gain salvation. Of the cause it teaches us: "The war broke out because one-third of the spirits refused to accept the appointment of Jesus Christ as the Savior". While I agree that there is still a war going on for agency, we need to understand that in the Second Estate there are more important things to move on to. The Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us to overcome sin and gain perfection. It is not focused on how to gain more freedom. If there is such a teaching from the modern prophets that shows agency is the weightier matter than purity and morality then I would love to hear it.

Is the issue of morality and purity a higher law than the issue of liberty and freedom?

Is it permissible to lose our "morality and purity" to remain free?
Is it permissible to lose our freedom to remain "moral and pure"?

Higher than what decided if you got a body or not? Higher than what led to a war in Heaven? Higher than something our Father thought so important that he kicked (permanently) out of His house a third of His children?

Don't get me wrong, it is very important, but it is agency that is called the weightier matter of the law by modern Prophets.

Agency is with you when you are born. You will alway have agency unless you are mentally incapacitated or in a coma, or otherwise brain dead.

As for what is agency and freedom?

You use agency when you decide to go to Church, to sleep in, to to cheat on the test or not, to not mess around with that intern. To buy golf clubs instead of paying tithing. To buy a sports car instead of paying off your creditors. You even have the ability to choose to run to the bathroom now, or wait for the commercial.

Freedom and liberty are more political and economic in nature. Freedom to worship as you please, to report on what government is doing wrong, to vote for whom you want to hold elective office, or to run for office yourself. To buy a car if you want to, or pay for a kitchen remodel instead. To go out for chinese food or pizza. To decide for yourself what type career you want, whom to marry, where to look to buy a house - or should your rent instead.

These freedoms, choices, and actions do not necessarily require you to be morally pure -- though ultimately whether or not the leaders and the people are will affect what type of government we have -- hint hint). But I guarantee you that if we have the gospel and made covenants but are trapped in Cuba, Red China, Soviet Russia, or Nazi Germany and are thrown into prison for political opposition, the Lord is going to look more closely at did we honor our temple covenants rather than did we fight for the Bill of Rights.

We can always chose to obey the moral law, even in our hearts, if the system prevents us from acting on it. The Jews in Nazi deaths camps still had the agency to believe in God; the Nephites led by Alma the Elder could still pray in their hearts, even when the Lamanite guards threatened to kill them if they prayed vocally.

I don't think we can stand before God and say: "yes, I slept with every person I dated, but I voted for Ron Paul!"