LDS Freedom Forum

TheDuke wrote: ↑January 18th, 2021, 6:29 pm it doesn't say men are equal, is says their rights are equal.

Moses 3:5

For I, the Lord God, acreated all things, of which I have spoken, bspiritually, before they were cnaturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth

Fred wrote: ↑January 18th, 2021, 10:38 am

samizdat wrote: ↑January 18th, 2021, 4:55 am

2ndRateMind wrote: ↑January 18th, 2021, 4:48 am ...to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, ...

Well, it's not self-evident to me. Indeed, when someone claims a self-evident truth, I contrarily tend to think that they have no justification for their point of view.

It is clear to me that all men are not created equal. Some are strong, and some weak. Some are born rich, and others poor. Some handsome, and some ugly. Some good natured, and others malign.

And as for unalienable rights, tell that to the Jews of Auschwitz. Or the Uighurs in China. Such were and are robbed of any rights, so they are clearly not unalienable.

I prefer to think of rights in terms of privileges granted within and among a society, each to each, and enforced with the power of the law.

Best wishes, 2RM

The idea, 2RM, was that the Founders did not think it was their prerogative to assign rights, nor deem the assignation of rights to an institution of government. This is what happens in Mexico; the Supreme Court of that country deems it the protectors of the rights of the people; its theme is "The Constitution grants rights, and we protect the Constitution" thus implying that they are the gatekeepers of rights.

So the Founders attributed the ultimate Lawgiver, God, as the Rightgiver. This means, inherently, that no government power can take away a person's rights given that they did not give them those rights. Anyone who affirms otherwise, would have to acknowledge two things:

That if a government gives rights, they can take them away too.
Government assumes the role of a higher power, essentially replacing God.

The first case already happens in many countries all around the world, with the strength of government varied from place to place in what usually is a hybrid system.
The second case happens rarer; but is par for the course in totalitarian regimes.

But once you get to the first case, it is a LOT easier to decline towards the second case, especially if the first cases' democratic institutions are weakened by unscrupulous rulers.

...As for having proof that God exists makes no difference. The Founders knew that he does because they received visitations from angels. But even that does not matter because the rights are self evident and inalienable (unable to be taken away).