LDS Freedom Forum

I have been studying the Prophecies of the Last Days since I was in HS, say 35+ years. Along with that goes being a news junky. I have told my kids I consider myself one of the watchmen on the tower who gives warning when danger comes. They have recently begun to give credence to what I have been saying. I wonder why?

One of the events that I have been watching out for is the fulfillment of The Times of The Gentiles. I believe this to be an obvious event to see coming and an important one.

1.Missionaries will be called home.
2.Gospel taken to the House of Israel.
3.The calamities and judgments of God (wars, famines, etc) will begin when the “times of the Gentiles be fulfilled”. See D&C sec 45.

Here are some questions I would like other’s opinion on.

Who are the Gentiles?

What causes the gospel to be taken from the gentiles? What are the conditions like in the world for this to happen?

Who is the House of Israel that the Gospel goes to next?

I have my own opinions but I would like to see what the scholars on this board think.

A Fellow Thinker,
Old Man

Hey thanks Oldmandalton for starting this subject.
Ive been recently studying this subject, as i see it to be one of the best "signs of the times" and a crucial indicator of where we are in the prophetic time line.
I teach sunday school in my singles ward and taught the lesson on 3 Nephi 16-21, where Christ specifically teaches the Nephites and ultimately us about the "times of the gentiles". I feel very blessed to have been able to teach this lesson, since on our rotation of teachers i only get to teach once a month. As i studied these things as wheel as referencing Crowther's book "Prophecy" I learned much, and more by the Spirit.

In my opinion, per what I read and gathered from scriptures.

The "Gentiles" are the Christian nations of the world and those Christian people around the world. That includes places like Russia, Turkey, and the countries of South America as well as the US.

The conditions that lead to the withdrawal of the Lords Spirit, in that it is then given over to the House of Israel and to the Jews, ( I see them as distinct) is that the Gentiles reject the Lords warnings and gospel as preached to them by the Missionaries and turn to warfare and sin on a national level in each respective nation.
Such things such as the killing of missionaries or wars of aggression or legislative measures that fight against God and his righteousness. I believe this is respective of each nations, but happens all across the board about the same time. This will be one of the reason why the Missionaries will be called home. And wars will increase among these nations, during this time the sealed servants of the most high will come to finish the job of gathering out the house of Isreal as well as witnessing against them of their wickedness that Gods judgments will be just.

As far as who is the House of Israel. Ive been looking into this for a long time, and have come to conclude that the House of Israel is the members of the church spread around the world, both those who have accepted the gospel as well as those who will, they are the ones who have received their Patriarchal blessings and have been adopted or declared members of the house of Israel. Thus they will be gathered to Zion, that is the Rocky mountains preparatory for and ultimately to the New Jerusalem.

There is an old thread about this subject and has some good information.
I would love to see this turn into an indepth study of this subject.
What do you think of these points above.
Some other topics to discuss:
What is the Church's role going to be in the respective gatherings of Isreal, the lost tribes, the Jews to Jerusalem.

The last days can be divided up into 4 periods of missionary/gathering periods:
The First Mission, the Gentile nations
The Second Mission, that is to the House of Israel
The Third Mission, that is to the "heathen" as well as just who are the "heathen" nations
The Fourth Mission, that is to the world.
There are to be all kinds of prophesied events that take place in direct relation to each mission, either in response to the mission, or as judgements

Id love to discuss any of these points as well as anything else along these lines.
I think ill post my lesson outline as well, maybe it can be of some worth.

I think the biggest take away about times of the Gentiles is the missionary work. If we are continuing to do conventional missionary work (to the Gentile) nations, which mostly include the Christian nations, we are still in the times of the Gentiles. When the economy and coming war happen, the missionaries will probably be called home. This is not the first time this has happened, but not on a total scale. In WWI and WWII missionaries were called home from those areas that were under war, but not totally. I think that in the next war, this will be a total callback, and signal a shift to the house of Israel. One indicator is that amount of baptisms and missionaries have been slowing in their increase, indicating an unwillingness to listen. I don't know if violence will have to happen, but the unwillingness to listen may be enough. In my opinion, the stand taken on gay marriage may be the signal for violence towards members of the Church and missionaries. I think the times of the Gentiles are quickly coming to an end. I see maybe 1 to 3 more years of the Gentile outreach.

The next phase, yes, is the outreach to the House of Israel. This happens through the calling and sealing of the 144,000 who take the gospel and gather out those of the House of Isreal though the Church. Lastly, the gospel will be sent to the Jew through the 2 apostles who will testify at Jerusalem. After their deaths and resurrections, Armageddon, and the appearance of the Savior on the Mount of Olives, the gospel then goes to the heathen nations. I see this is a cleanup phase since all nations will be in civil war and unrest after Armageddon. The Church will be sent to places like China and India and the depths of the Amazon and Africa in earnest.

Finally, the coming to all the world is the scroll of heaven opening up and judgment coming down upon the people as the Lord finally descends in red, the Earth is renewed, and the Millenial government is finalized.

My understanding is that there will be missionary work in the beginning of the millenium, especially to the heathen nations.

[From Roark;
Hey thanks Oldmandalton for starting this subject.
Ive been recently studying this subject, as i see it to be one of the best "signs of the times" and a crucial indicator of where we are in the prophetic time line.]

I agree Roark, this will be a pivotal point in the Lord’s timeline.

[As i studied these things as wheel as referencing Crowther's book "Prophecy" I learned much, and more by the Spirit.]

I have studied “Prophecy: Key to the Future” also. That was one of the first books I read on this subject way back in the late 60s when I was still in HS. Great resource but as always you have to be careful of “unauthorized” prophecies. I try and just use the published words of the General Authorities.


[In my opinion, per what I read and gathered from scriptures.
The "Gentiles" are the Christian nations of the world and those Christian people around the world. That includes places like Russia, Turkey, and the countries of South America as well as the US.]

Very true;
The Gentiles are descended from Japheth, son of Noah. Japheth was the father of the European nations. Referring to Japheth's seven sons, Genesis says, "By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands" Gen 10:5 (isles can also be translated "regions").
The centre of the Gentile world was thus the lands between modern Turkey (Asia Minor) and Greece. This region was the birthplace of, and gateway to, Europe. It saw the centre of the Minoan, Trojan, Roman and Byzantine civilizations.

So when Noah said "God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem" (Genesis 9:27), this was literally fulfilled in the Dark Ages to our modern period. Europe has grown to dominate the world, with a culture that developed from the Judaeo-Christian tradition, and a special political/religious interest in the Middle East. No wonder the centuries after the New Testament were referred to as "the times of the Gentiles."

The Gentiles are equivalent to what scholars call the "Indo-European" family of nations. In the earliest times these were: The Hittites, The Celts, The Germanic nations, The Greeks and Romans.

As we look at the history of the Gentiles, we see that it has its origins in the little horn – the area around Byzantium. But that’s could be a whole thread in itself.

[The conditions that lead to the withdrawal of the Lords Spirit, in that it is then given over to the House of Israel and to the Jews, ( I see them as distinct) is that the Gentiles reject the Lords warnings and gospel as preached to them by the Missionaries and turn to warfare and sin on a national level in each respective nation.
Such things such as the killing of missionaries or wars of aggression or legislative measures that fight against God and his righteousness. I believe this is respective of each nations, but happens all across the board about the same time. This will be one of the reason why the Missionaries will be called home. And wars will increase among these nations, during this time the sealed servants of the most high will come to finish the job of gathering out the house of Isreal as well as witnessing against them of their wickedness that Gods judgments will be just.]

There will probably be several reasons all associated with each other that will cause God to take the Gospel from the Gentile Nations. As you said Roark, The Gospel will be rejected by the Gentile Nations. This will be caused by the continued moral decline of our society to the point where persecution against the missionaries and the Church begins. The divide between the World and the Church will increase to the point of total separation. Nations will put restrictions on visas as is happening in Russia. As society falls so will peace, that’s when the wars begin. When anarchy spreads then the missionaries will be called home.


[As far as who is the House of Israel. Ive been looking into this for a long time, and have come to conclude that the House of Israel is the members of the church spread around the world, both those who have accepted the gospel as well as those who will, they are the ones who have received their Patriarchal blessings and have been adopted or declared members of the house of Israel. Thus they will be gathered to Zion, that is the Rocky mountains preparatory for and ultimately to the New Jerusalem.]

If the Gospel is taken from the Gentile Nations (Europe, USA, Canada, Australia, etc) then who is left? I don’t think the Missionaries will be called home from South and Central America unless it is those from foreign countries. You have the Heathen Nations like China and India but they are to receive the Gospel after Israel. No, the only other Tribes of Israel that are left are Judah and Benjamin, the other 10 being lost. How will this be done? No one is allowed to proselyte in Israel? Will missionaries go among the Jewish neighborhoods in the cities of the world?

In my opinion, the gospel will be taken to the Jews through two Apostles who will go to Israel and preach to those who live there. It won’t be successful until the war of Armageddon where these two witnesses will keep the armies of Gog & Magog at bay for 3 ½ years. The Jews then will begin to convert to the gospel when they see the miracles performed on their behalf. This may be the time when the 3rd Temple is erected, during these 3 ½ years.

[What is the Church's role going to be in the respective gatherings of Isreal, the lost tribes, the Jews to Jerusalem.]

The Gathering of Israel started when the Jews began their long return soon after Elder Hyde’s Dedication of the Holy Land for their return in 1841. The Lost Tribes are “lost” to us and have the benefit of having their own prophets and the administration of John the Beloved. The Jews in Jerusalem will have the two witnesses or apostles.

[The last days can be divided up into 4 periods of missionary/gathering periods:
The First Mission, the Gentile nations
The Second Mission, that is to the House of Israel
The Third Mission, that is to the "heathen" as well as just who are the "heathen" nations
The Fourth Mission, that is to the world.
There are to be all kinds of prophesied events that take place in direct relation to each mission, either in response to the mission, or as judgements]

Very true. We are in the First Mission and IMO soon to head into the Second.

[Id love to discuss any of these points as well as anything else along these lines.
I think ill post my lesson outline as well, maybe it can be of some worth.]

Me too, Roark, I love these kind of discussions.

Your brother
Old Man Dalton

Was listening to Richard Draper's Talks on the book of Revelation and he was talking about the martyrs under the alter.
Rev 6:9-11

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the aaltar the souls of them that were bslain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and aavenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And awhite brobes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should crest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I was wondering if this could be one of the keys events that seals the fate of the gentile nations and introduces the 2nd mission period. That is the killing of the saints and our priesthood leaders. As the versus say "how long" until the Lord avenges the martyrs?
It appears that not until their fellow servants have also been martyred.
It has been said by previous prophets and apostles that there are to be future martyrs for the cause,
As persecutions increase and civil strife grows along with the LDG growing more bold in their attacks, the threat of deadly persecution becomes more of a reality for our leaders as well as for us.
Our nation has already had its fate secured with the martyrdom of the Prophet Joseph Smith as well as the Patriarch Hyrum Smith.
Are other nations going to follow this course?

Thoughts?

[From Roark;
Was listening to Richard Draper's Talks on the book of Revelation and he was talking about the martyrs under the alter. Rev 6:9-11]

As I understand it, each Seal in Revelations represent each thousand year of earth’s history.

D&C 77:7
7 Q. What are we to understand by the seven seals with which it was sealed?
A. We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh.

Therefore the 5th Seal is millennium during which Christ and His apostles lived where they and many Saints were martyred.

[As persecutions increase and civil strife grows along with the LDG growing more bold in their attacks, the threat of deadly persecution becomes more of a reality for our leaders as well as for us.
Our nation has already had its fate secured with the martyrdom of the Prophet Joseph Smith as well as the Patriarch Hyrum Smith.
Are other nations going to follow this course?]

I believe that this generation needs to go through the refiner’s fire just as previous generations of Saints have gone through. This will not only include wars, famine/pestilence, earthquakes, etc, but also persecution. Not just picketers at Conference and Temples either. I am talking ejecting Missionaries from communities and nations, taking away tax-free status or worse (taking church property, the right to vote, etc), mobbing & riots just like what the early Saints had to suffer through. The Abominable Church will attack us throughout the whole world. They will dig a pit for us but then they’ll fall in themselves.

14 And every nation which shall war against thee, O house of Israel, shall be turned one against another, and they shall fall into the pit which they digged to ensnare the people of the Lord. And all that fight against Zion shall be destroyed, and that great whore, who hath perverted the right ways of the Lord, yea, that great and abominable church, shall tumble to the dust and great shall be the fall of it. (1 NEPHI 22:14)

I testify that as the forces of evil increase under Lucifer’s leadership and as the forces of good increase under the leadership of Jesus Christ, there will be growing battles between the two until the final confrontation. As the issues become clearer and more obvious, all mankind will eventually be required to align themselves either for the kingdom of God or for the kingdom of the devil. As these conflicts rage, either secretly or openly, the righteous will be tested.
(Pres. E.T. Benson Oct 1988)

Where tyranny and oppression and all the horrors of despotism now reign, will be heard the Gospel of peace. Saints must be established in all those countries. Even in Russia, that place where they would almost put you to death if you brought a printed work of a religious nature into the empire,?in that country, where they will not suffer you to propagate the Bible unmolested, whose religion is established by law, has the Gospel of Jesus Christ to be preached. Yes, the Church of the Saints is to be established there; and after it is established, there they are to gather together in multitudes, like other nations, to fight against it. (JD, O PRATT 7:185-86)

OMD

[From pjbrownie;
I think the biggest take away about times of the Gentiles is the missionary work. If we are continuing to do conventional missionary work (to the Gentile) nations, which mostly include the Christian nations, we are still in the times of the Gentiles. When the economy and coming war happen, the missionaries will probably be called home. This is not the first time this has happened, but not on a total scale. In WWI and WWII missionaries were called home from those areas that were under war, but not totally. I think that in the next war, this will be a total callback, and signal a shift to the house of Israel. One indicator is that amount of baptisms and missionaries have been slowing in their increase, indicating an unwillingness to listen. I don't know if violence will have to happen, but the unwillingness to listen may be enough. In my opinion, the stand taken on gay marriage may be the signal for violence towards members of the Church and missionaries. I think the times of the Gentiles are quickly coming to an end. I see maybe 1 to 3 more years of the Gentile outreach.]

I believe you are right PJ. Elder L. Tom Perry came to Las Vegas 2 weeks ago to initiate a new missionary program. All of the current processes will continue. Ward Mission Leader, the reports will stay the same, etc. Only now the Ward Council will get together and with the Bishop chose 10-20 inactive families to be taught by the Missionaries for re-activation along with any investigators being taught. Elder Perry said wherever this program was tried activation increased dramatically PLUS baptisms went up too. Is this the beginning of the end of the Times of the Gentiles? Where the Church will use the Missionaries to reactivate instead of search among the gentile Nations for the elect?


[The next phase, yes, is the outreach to the House of Israel. This happens through the calling and sealing of the 144,000 who take the gospel and gather out those of the House of Isreal though the Church.]

17 For behold, the Lord God hath sent forth the angel crying through the midst of heaven, saying: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, and make his paths straight, for the hour of his coming is nigh—
18 When the Lamb shall stand upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
19 Wherefore, prepare ye for the coming of the Bridegroom; go ye, go ye out to meet him. (D&C 133:17-19)

“I Walked Today Where Jesus Walked”, President Harold B. Lee was First Counselor in the First Presidency when he wrote this article in 1972 recording his visit to the Holy Land.

"As we looked out that night from the veranda of our hotel room, silhouetted against the sky was Mount Zion, and there was King David’s tower marking, so they told us, the place where they say the Last Supper was held just before the Savior went down to the Brook Cedron and to his betrayal and judgment and finally to death. Here on this mount Zion or in America’s New Jerusalem (our students of the scripture are not in agreement as to which) is to be commenced the greatest drama of the whole history of the world to usher in the second coming of the Lord. The Master himself has described this momentous event:
“… the Lamb shall stand upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
“And it shall be a voice as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder, which shall break down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found.” (D&C 133:18, 22.)
“And then shall the Lord set his foot upon this mount, and it shall cleave in twain, and the earth shall tremble, and reel to and fro, and the heavens also shall shake.
“And the Lord shall utter his voice, and all the ends of the earth shall hear it; and the nations of the earth shall mourn, and they that have laughed shall see their folly.
“And then shall the Jews look upon me and say: What are these wounds in thine hands and in thy feet?
“Then shall they know that I am the Lord; for I will say unto them: These wounds are the wounds with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. I am he who was lifted up. I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God.” (D&C 45:48–49, 51–52.) "

It looks to me that the 144K will be resurrected beings that will appear with Christ when He saves Jerusalem from the armies of Gog and Magog. Then they will go throughout the entire world to prepare for His Coming in Glory.

I attended prayer-meeting with the quorum in the assembly room, and made some remarks respecting the hundred and forty-four thousand mentioned by John the Revelator, showing that the selection of persons to form that number had already commenced. (HC, J SMITH 6:196)

This suggests that among the 144,000 high priests at least some, or all, will be resurrected beings. Will this include former prophets and apostles? Exciting times are ahead.

I have always wondered about the timing of the ministry of the 144k. Here are my questions.

If the Gospel is taken from the Gentile Nations why will the 144k go back INTO those same countries again to preach?

I realize that the conditions will be different, plagues, famines, earthquakes, etc, but it will be the same Gospel being taken to Israel within those nations. Isn’t that what the Missionaries are doing today in the Gentile Nations?

I am just confused by the timing of the 144k’s mission.

[ Lastly, the gospel will be sent to the Jew through the 2 apostles who will testify at Jerusalem. After their deaths and resurrections, Armageddon, and the appearance of the Savior on the Mount of Olives, the gospel then goes to the heathen nations.]

I see the Saviors visit as a watershed event for the Jewish people and for the righteous Muslims who do not participate in the attack on Israel. They all will be converted when they see Jesus on The Mount of Olives.

OMD

Oldemandalton wrote:Elder L. Tom Perry came to Las Vegas 2 weeks ago to initiate a new missionary program. All of the current processes will continue. Ward Mission Leader, the reports will stay the same, etc. Only now the Ward Council will get together and with the Bishop chose 10-20 inactive families to be taught by the Missionaries for re-activation along with any investigators being taught. Elder Perry said wherever this program was tried activation increased dramatically PLUS baptisms went up too. Is this the beginning of the end of the Times of the Gentiles?

no. i think it is just another program. surly you've seen enough of them to know them.

the other thing is, this is EXACTLY what ward councils and auxhillaries are meant to be doing anyway. without disrespecting the intent, such promises and anecdotes have always been given when a new program is rolled out

Oldemandalton wrote:Where the Church will use the Missionaries to reactivate instead of search among the gentile Nations for the elect?

reactivate instead of find israel? hmm, not sure.
i thought the arable of the talents says too bad if you dont keep you wick trimmed
and parable of lost coin, prodigal son and good shephard say members are meant to go home teaching and work with inactives
missionaries have a calling and that calling is to teach the gospel- not reteach it

[quote="Oldemandalton"]I have been studying the Prophecies of the Last Days since I was in HS, say 35+ years. Along with that goes being a news junky. I have told my kids I consider myself one of the watchmen on the tower who gives warning when danger comes.

how has that gone? do you encourage them to listen to other voices also, like some here?



[quote="Oldemandalton"]1.Missionaries will be called home.

yup, we hear a lot about that. all it needs is civil disorder through say economic breakdown and they come home



[quote="Oldemandalton"]Gospel taken to the House of Israel.

the gospel HAS been taken to the house of israel. my understanding is that WE are the house of israel, as in the LDS.



[quote="Oldemandalton"]Who are the Gentiles?

anyone who is not a physical member of the house of Judah. a person who is jewish by religion but not of judah is not. an LDS who is a member of Judah is still a jew



[quote="Oldemandalton"]What causes the gospel to be taken from the gentiles? What are the conditions like in the world for this to happen?

no idea but i think your guess is as good as any other




[quote="Oldemandalton"]Who is the House of Israel that the Gospel goes to next?

i thought it was us. wasn't the gathering of israel a key restored to joseph smith? i thought we were israel, as in whoever joins the church



[quote="Oldemandalton"]I have my own opinions but I would like to see what the scholars on this board think.

scholars? you flatter me

AussieOi wrote:

Oldemandalton wrote:Who is the House of Israel that the Gospel goes to next?

i thought it was us. wasn't the gathering of israel a key restored to joseph smith?

Where is the key of the gathering of Isreal given to Joseph Smith?

OldeManDalton

This should help. Each member teaches to the tribe of Israel he is from. Not to the Gentiles.

http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4620

“… the Lamb shall stand upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

The Lord is at New Jerusalem Here

“And it shall be a voice as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder, which shall break down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found.” (D&C 133:18, 22.)

It shall come at a time of tempests, earthquakes, ending of the sixth seal

“And then shall the Lord set his foot upon this mount, and it shall cleave in twain, and the earth shall tremble, and reel to and fro, and the heavens also shall shake.

After this happens, and the 144,000 are sent forth, I believe the following relates to the Jews.

“And the Lord shall utter his voice, and all the ends of the earth shall hear it; and the nations of the earth shall mourn, and they that have laughed shall see their folly.
“And then shall the Jews look upon me and say: What are these wounds in thine hands and in thy feet?
“Then shall they know that I am the Lord; for I will say unto them: These wounds are the wounds with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. I am he who was lifted up. I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God.” (D&C 45:48–49, 51–52.) "

I think the mission of the 144,000 may indeed go into the same nations (although I do think that the distribution will be wildly different than today, for example, not sure America will be a major focus at this time, and lands like Russia and the Caucasus states will be a greater focus. The method of preaching I think will be different as well. I think these 144,000 will be translated and will teach from a more powerful voice in concert with the calamaties of the Lord.

My simple understanding of this event is that at some point the missionaries will be called home and then the Lord wil preach his own sermon. If America collapses then the church will no longer be able to field missionaries. Then they will be called home and all heck will break lose. This event is imminent IMO.

[From NoGreaterLove
This should help. Each member teaches to the tribe of Israel he is from. Not to the Gentiles.]

Thank you, NoGreaterLove.

[From Naturelovertoo;
I believe we can gain some special insight as to the order of things as we study what our leaders have spoken about the 144000 called. All of these are direct quotes from General Authorities, First Presidency, Twelve Apostles and Prophets. I have the references if anyone would like them. I sure would Naturlovertoo. I have written all the information that is contained in these quotes by copying them directly from the material.

Who they are:
1. one hundred and forty-four thousand high priests, ordained unto "the holy order of God to administer the gospel
2. sealed unto the twelve tribes of Israel
3. Ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue and people" by the instrumentation of the angels
4. will be caught up to meet Christ at his coming

I believe that this is referring to;
17 For behold, the Lord God hath sent forth the angel crying through the midst of heaven, saying: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, and make his paths straight, for the hour of his coming is nigh—
18 When the Lamb shall stand upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
19 Wherefore, prepare ye for the coming of the Bridegroom; go ye, go ye out to meet him. (D&C 133:17-19)

In my above post President Harold B. Lee believes this is referring to the “old” Jerusalem and not necessarily the New Jerusalem.

5. his Father's name written on their foreheads
6. specially called by the power of "the angels
7. shall stand upon Mount Zion

“Old” Jerusalem. See above.

8. selection of persons to form that number had already commenced.

True, many or maybe even all will be resurrected beings.

9. clothed in white raiment
10. washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb
11. were they next the throne and serve their Maker day and night
12. had come up through much tribulation
13. are Gods

Could I have a reference for this and the next point? Not that I doubt it but have never heard these claims. Thank you.

14.their callings and elections have been made sure
see above
15. in their mouth was found no guile
16. without fault before the throne of God.

What they do:
1. they will associate with him as do the Father and his Only Begotten
2. administer the everlasting gospel
3. serve their Maker day and night
4. the body-guard of the great Captain of Salvation
5. follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth
6. Then they follow him in the work of salvation, not only in this world, but also in the spirit world, where he ministered while his body was lying in the tomb.
7. anointed to administer in the daily sacrifice
8. last to go among the children of men

Some of these will be difficult to do if they are to be missionaries; body guards, follow and be servants of Christ, unless it will be just a few of the 144k who will do this while the rest find and teach Israel.

[From pjbrownie;
I think the mission of the 144,000 may indeed go into the same nations (although I do think that the distribution will be wildly different than today, for example, not sure America will be a major focus at this time, and lands like Russia and the Caucasus states will be a greater focus. The method of preaching I think will be different as well. I think these 144,000 will be translated and will teach from a more powerful voice in concert with the calamaties of the Lord. ]

I am still confused PJ. Russia and the Caucasus are still Gentile Nations. If the Times of the Gentiles if over and they have rejected the Gospel, why go back and open up the Gentile nations again?

As I understand missionary work today, it is that we are trying to find the elect from among the Gentile Nations and also any scattered remnant of Israel that may be found. When the Gentiles reject the Gospel and Jesus Christ then God will shift the missionary work from the Gentiles to Israel.

If, according to Pres Lee, the 144k appear with Christ on Mount Zion in Jerusalem after the 3 ½ years siege of that city, then more than likely they will be resurrected or translated beings and this is when they begin their ministry.

Another theory is that they will be called from among the 12 tribes after the lost 10 Tribes return and begin their ministry then from the New Jerusalem.

Could it be that the 144k’s mission will begin towards the end of the Times of the Gentiles and not after? They have been sealed so as to withstand the calamities that the Lord will send down during the Last Days. This will be the period of great tribulation and persecution. It sounds to me that it may very well be BEFORE the Gospel is taken from the Gentiles. The mission of the 144k will be their last chance. They will have more power in Priesthood and testimony than any other missionary force the earth has ever seen. They will go out into the whole world to find the last of Israel.


Please use quotes from the General Authorites and scriptures to help me understand the timing of the 144,000. This is the only future event i can't place where it goes in the timeline for sure. Thank you.

Still Searching for Truth
Old Man Dalton

I found this:

The One Hundred and Forty-four Thousand

It is apparent that just before the beginning of the millennial reign of Christ upon the earth for one thousand years, as seen in vision by the Apostle John, one hundred and forty-four thousand high priests, ordained unto "the holy order of God to administer the gospel," will be selected from among those who have been sealed unto the twelve tribes of Israel, "ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue and people" by the instrumentation of the angels, to whom is given power over the nations of the earth to bring as many as will come to the Church of the Firstborn.

Twelve thousand high priests from each of the twelve tribes of Israel will be the last to go among the children of men to glean out the righteous as the sixth thousand years of earth-life existence shall draw to a close. fn


(Alvin R. Dyer, Who Am I? [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1966], 450.)


Question: "The Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the one hundred and forty-four thousand mentioned in the Book of Revelation are the only ones to receive resurrection. What is the correct interpretation?"

Answer: The one hundred and forty-four thousand mentioned in Revelation 7:4-8 represent special groups from the tribes of Israel, twelve thousand from each tribe, who will be caught up to meet Christ at his coming.

In Section 77 of the Doctrine and Covenants we read:

Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?

A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn. (D. & C. 77:11.)

Further, we read from Section 133:

Hearken and hear, O ye inhabitants of the earth. Listen, ye elders of my church together, and hear the voice of the Lord; for he calleth upon all men, and he commandeth all men everywhere to repent.

For behold, the Lord God hath sent forth the angel crying through the midst of heaven, saying: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, and make his paths straight, for the hour of his coming is nigh—

When the Lamb shall stand upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his Father's name written on their foreheads.

Wherefore, prepare ye for the coming of the Bridegroom; go ye out to meet him. (D. & C. 133:16-19.)

"GREAT MULTITUDES WHICH NO MAN CAN NUMBER"

Now if you will read all of Chapter 7 in Revelation you will learn that in addition to these one hundred and forty-four thousand there was a great multitude out of all nations which no man could number who likewise received salvation, and they, too, "stood before the throne of the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."


(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 3: 186.)

This certainly is a great honor to be one of the 144 thousand who are specially called by the power of "the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth," to bring souls unto Christ. John the Apostle, had the great desire to bring souls to Christ. The three Nephite Disciples likewise sought this great honor and it was granted to them. It is one of the noblest desires that a man can have. It will be a wonderful blessing to those who are called in this great group. This 144 thousand will not be the only ones who worship the Father and the Son, for after speaking of the twelve thousand out of each of the tribes, John records: "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying: Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God." (Ch. 7:9-11.)
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation, 4 vols. [Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1946-1949], 2: 71 - 72.)

And I looked and lo, a lamb stood on Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his father's name written on their foreheads.' Their father's name; bless me. That is God. Well done for Mormonism—144,000 Gods among the tribes of Israel and two living Gods and the Holy Ghost for this world. Such knowledge is too wonderful for men, unless they possess the spirit of Gods."—President Taylor, quoted by Roberts in The Mormon Doctrine of Deity, page 253.
(B. H. Roberts, Defense of the Faith and the Saints, 2 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret News, 1907], 2: 270.)

The One Hundred and Forty-Four Thousand

I remarked that the hundred and forty-four thousand sealed are the priests who should be anointed to administer in the daily sacrifice. (HC 5:326.)


(Joseph Smith, Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Alma P. Burton [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1977], 268.)

Additional Seventies to Be Called As Needed

If the first Seventy are all employed, and there is a call for more laborers, it will be the duty of the seven presidents of the first Seventy to call and ordain other seventy and send them forth to labor in the vineyard, until, if needs be, they set apart seven times seventy, and even until there are one hundred and forty-four thousand thus set apart for the ministry


(Joseph Smith, Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Alma P. Burton [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1977], 297.)

1. A lamb stood on the mount Sion] Which Mount Zion? All of the references to Mount Zion which talk of the Second Coming and related latter-day events appear to have in mind the new Mount Zion in Jackson County, Missouri. Thus we read: "Prepare ye the way of the Lord, and make his paths straight, for the hour of his coming is nigh—When the Lamb shall stand upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his Father's name written on their foreheads."

Rev 14 1Then comes this explanatory comment which shows the Lord will appear many places at his coming: "For behold, he shall stand upon the mount of Olivet, and upon the mighty ocean, even the great deep, and upon the islands of the sea, and upon the land of Zion." And then, using some language borrowed from Rev. 14:2, the revelation continues: "And he shall utter his voice out of Zion, and he shall speak from Jerusalem, and his voice shall be heard among all people; And it shall be a voice as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder, which shall break down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found." (D. & C. 133:17-22.)

Rev 14 1It seems clear that the Lord and his exalted associates shall stand in glory upon the American Mount Zion, although it may well be that in his numerous other appearances, including that on the Mount of Olivet, which is itself but a few stones' throw from old Mount Zion, he shall also be accompanied by the 144,000 high priests, "for they follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth." (Verse 4.)

Rev 14 1An hundred forty and four thousand] See Rev. 7:2-8.

Rev 14 1Having his Father's name written in their foreheads] See Rev. 3:7-13.


(Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965-1973], 3: 526.)

Followers of the Lamb.—John of Patmos saw a Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, "and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads" (Rev. 14:1). And he heard a voice from heaven saying, "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth." Then they follow him in the work of salvation, not only in this world, but also in the spirit world, where he ministered while his body was lying in the tomb.

Who are these 144,000? They are not the whole house of Israel, which numbers millions; but they are "of all the tribes of the children of Israel," twelve thousand of every tribe. The Prophet Joseph says: They "are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the Everlasting Gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the Church of the First Born" (D&C 77:11). They are not the entire army of the Lord, but might well be termed the flower of that army, the body-guard of the great Captain of Salvation.


(Orson F. Whitney, Gospel Themes [Salt Lake City: n.p., 1914], 150.)

Sunday 4.—I attended prayer-meeting with the quorum in the assembly room, and made some remarks respecting the hundred and forty-four thousand mentioned by John the Revelator, showing that the selection of persons to form that number had already commenced.
(Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 vols., introduction and notes by B. H. Roberts [Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1932-1951], 6: 196.)

"The foregoing are my sentiments, which I express from the bottom of my heart; and I would state further, that if we expect to be united with the hundred and forty-four thousand of which John speaks; who are clothed in white raiment, and who were gathered together from every nation, kindred, people and tongue, and who had washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (therefore were they next the throne and serve their Maker day and night); we must pass through the same ordeal they did.

"These people who were so honored of God, and of the Redeemer, and the heavenly hosts, were those who had come up through much tribulation; and we are further told in late revelations which God has given us through the Prophet Joseph, that 'After much tribulation cometh the blessing.'


(B. H. Roberts, Life of John Taylor Salt Lake City: George Q. Cannon & Sons, 1892], 392 - 393.)

One Hundred and Forty-Four Thousand

See CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN, EXALTATION, MILLENNIUM, SEALED IN FOREHEAD, SECOND COMING OF CHRIST, ZION. At his Second Coming, "the Lamb shall stand upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his Father's name written on their foreheads." (D. & C. 133:18; Rev. 14:1-5.) These 144,000 are Gods, as the name on their foreheads specifies; their callings and elections have been made sure; they are exalted personages; they are "redeemed from among men, ... And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." (Rev. 14:4-5.) They have attained perfection.

These brethren, 12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel — excepting for some unspecified reason the tribe of Dan (Rev. 7:2-8) — "are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn." (D. & C. 77:9-11.) They are part of "a great multitude, which no man could number — all of whom shall have membership in the Church of the Firstborn and therefore be exalted beings. (Rev. 7:9-17 Heb. 12:22-24.)


(Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966], 546.)

6. At the Second Coming, "the Lamb shall stand upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his Father's name written on their foreheads." (D. & C. 133:18; Rev. 14:1-5.) The Mount Zion spoken of is identified by latter-day revelation as the New Jerusalem to be built in Jackson County, Missouri. (D. & C. 84:1-4.)
(Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966], 855.)

In the first verse of the 14th chapter of Revelation, we are told that John saw one hundred and forty-four thousand persons standing with the Lamb upon Mount Zion, and they had a peculiar name written in their foreheads—even their Father's name, him whom we call, in our language, God. Then there will be written upon the foreheads of these hundred and forty-four thousand this insignia, the Father's name, and they will be gods; and they will associate with him as do the Father and his Only Begotten, that is, his only son begotten in the flesh.
(B. H. Roberts, The Mormon Doctrine of Deity [Salt Lake City: Deseret News, 1903], 276.)

And John tells us that "they sung as it were a new song before the throne, . . . and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth" (Revelation 14:3)
(Hugh Nibley, Approaching Zion, edited by Don E. Norton [Salt Lake City and Provo: Deseret Book Co., Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1989], 565 - 566.)

"What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand?"

"It is not only necessary that you should be baptized for your dead, but you will have to go through all the ordinances for them, the same as you have gone through to save yourselves. There will be 144,000 saviors on Mount Zion, and with them an innumerable host that no man can number." (Joseph Smith, HC 6:365.)

"The ten tribes will have to come forth and come to this land, to be crowned with glory in the midst of Zion by the hands of the servants of God, even the Children of Ephraim; and twelve thousand High Priests will be elected from each of these ten tribes, as well as from the scattered tribes, and sealed in their foreheads, and will be ordained and receive power to gather out of all nations, kindreds, tongues and people as many as will come unto the general assemblage of the Church of the first-born. Will not that be a great work? Imagine one hundred and forty-four thousand High Priests going forth among the nations, and gathering out as many as will come to the Church of the first-born. All that will be done, probably, in the morning of the seventh thousand years. The work is of great magnitude, Latter-day Saints, and we are living almost upon the eve of it." (Orson Pratt, JD 16:325-26.)

"This certainly is a great honor to be one of the 144 thousand who are especially called by the power of 'the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth,' to bring souls unto Christ. John the Apostle had the great desire to bring souls to Christ. [Sec. 7.] The three Nephite Disciples likewise sought this great honor and it was granted to them. [3 Nephi 28.] It is one of the noblest desires that a man can have. It will be a wonderful blessing to those who are called in this great group." (Joseph Fielding Smith, CHMR 2:71-72.)

77:12


(Daniel H. Ludlow, A Companion to Your Study of the Doctrine and Covenants, 2 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1978], 1: 399.)

1. one hundred and forty-four thousand high priests, ordained unto "the holy order of God to administer the gospel
2. sealed unto the twelve tribes of Israel
3. Ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue and people" by the instrumentation of the angels
4. will be caught up to meet Christ at his coming
5. his Father's name written on their foreheads
6. specially called by the power of "the angels
7. shall stand upon Mount Zion
8. selection of persons to form that number had already commenced.
9. clothed in white raiment
10. washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb
11. were they next the throne and serve their Maker day and night
12. had come up through much tribulation
13. are Gods
14.their callings and elections have been made sure
15. in their mouth was found no guile
16. without fault before the throne of God.

What they do:
1. they will associate with him as do the Father and his Only Begotten
2. administer the everlasting gospel
3. serve their Maker day and night
4. the body-guard of the great Captain of Salvation
5. follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth
6. Then they follow him in the work of salvation, not only in this world, but also in the spirit world, where he ministered while his body was lying in the tomb.
7. anointed to administer in the daily sacrifice
8. last to go among the children of men

This is an excellent talk. I will not post all of it here, but it lays out the order of events until Christ comes. It answers the question, "who are the Gentiles"

Discourse by Elder Orson Pratt,
Resurrection of the Saints—Second Advent of the Messiah—Preparatory Work—Return of the Jews to Jerusalem—Gathering of the Saints to Zion—Christ's Personal ReignJDelivered in the New Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, Sunday Afternoon, July 25, 1875.(Reported by David W. Evans.)

After the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, which period is set in the mind of God, another scene will open up before the world, in the grand panorama of the last days. What is that? The downfall of the Gentile nations.

Says one—"Whom do you call Gentiles?" Every nations excepting the literal descendants of Israel. We, the Latter-day Saints, are Gentiles; in other words, we have come from among the Gentile nations, though many of us may have the blood of Israel within our veins. When God has called out the righteous, when the warning voice has been sufficiently proclaimed among these Gentile nations, and the Lord says "It is enough," he will also say to his servants—"O, ye, my servants, come home, come out from the midst of these gentile nations, where you have labored and borne testimony for so long a period; come out from among them, for they are not worthy; they do not receive the message that I have sent forth, they do not repent of their sins; come out from their midst, their times are fulfilled. Seal up the testimony among them and bind up the law." What then? Then the word of the Lord will be—"O, ye, my servants, I have a new commission for you. Instead of going forth to convert the Gentile nations, go unto the remnants of the house of Israel that are scattered in the four quarters of the earth. Go and proclaim to them that the times of their dispersion are accomplished; that the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled; that the time has arrived for my people Israel, who have been scattered for generations in a dark and cloudy day, to gather unto their own homes again, and to build up old Jerusalem on its former heap.

And then will commence the gathering of the Jews to old Jerusalem; then the ten tribes in the northern regions, wherever they may be, after having been concealed from the nations for twenty-five hundred years, will come forth and will return, as Jeremiah has said, from the north country. A great company will come, and they will sing in the height of Zion, and "flow together for the goodness of the Lord, for wine and for oil, and for the young of the flock; and their souls shall be as a watered garden, and they shall not sorrow any more at all."

What a happy time for them, when they come from their cold quarters in the north! The Jews dispersed among the Gentiles will not come and sing in the height of Zion, or but very few of them, they will go to Jerusalem.

Some of them will believe in the true Messiah, and thousands of the more righteous, whose fathers did not consent to the shedding of the blood of the Son of God, will receive the Gospel before they gather from among the nations.

Many of them, however, will not receive the Gospel, but seeing that other are going to Jerusalem they will go also; and when they get back to Palestine, to the place where their ancient Jerusalem stood, and see a certain portion of the believing Jews endeavoring to fulfill and carry out the prophecies, they also will take hold and assist in the same work. At the same time they will have their synagogues, in which they will preach against Jesus of Nazareth, "that impostor," as they call him, who was crucified by their fathers.

Gentiles are those who are not of the house of Israel or those who do not have the Gospel. Israel may be actual blood lines or actual lineage. When we are baptized we become of the house of Israel adopted in to the kingdom of God and in to the house of Israel. http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... dByAuthor=

Zion is the pure in heart, knit together in unity and love. http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... dByAuthor=

The house of Israel is being gathered in to the Stakes of Zion, our stakes. http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... dByAuthor=
All of those house of Israel who have been scattered upon the earth are now being gathered. Recently Patriarchal Blessings have been given identifying every tribe of Israel in various parts of the world. All of Israel is being gathered in. (to the stakes of Zion)

We have been admonished to unify ourselves and make strong the stakes of Zion.http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... &hideNav=1

We have been admonished to get our houses in order. http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... dByAuthor=

The answers lie within these admonitions.

Thank you all for your posts and references. They were great.

Allow me to boil it all down to this;

1.Gospel taken to the Gentiles. To the heathen nations also but not in great numbers. This began with the restoration of the Gospel through Joseph Smith. In the last two centuries the missionaries have taken the gospel to almost every country on the globe. Many people who live within those countries who do not allow the missionaries yet (heathen nations); travel, go to college, or work over seas and are converted there.
2.The Times of the Gentiles Is Fulfilled. Missionaries called home during times of calamity, famine, plague, and persecution after the gentile nations reject their message.
3.Gospel taken to Israel. During this period 2 Apostles go to Jerusalem, preach the Gospel, and using the Power of God keep at bay the armies of Gog for 3 ½ years.
4.Christ appears to the Jews in Jerusalem with the 144k and saves them from Gog and Magog. The gospel is taken one more time to the world by the 144k before The Savior’s coming in glory. The heathen nations will now have the gospel taught to them fully.
5.Christ appears in glory.

I am skipping many other prophesied events. I just wanted to get straight the timing of the 144,000 and the Times of the Gentiles.

Thank You

OMD

I was listening to President Monson's opening remarks from the October General Conference and had forgot that he asked us to pray for new areas to open up where the missionaries could go in and share the gospel (he specifically referred to doing the same thing that we did when President Kimball asked us to pray for this 30 years ago). Initially when I hear these types of remarks from our prophet I start to think that we may still have a while before the "Times of the Gentiles" is completely fulfilled. But today while listening I started to wonder if instead our prayers might not be so things can collapse, the Times of the Gentiles will end, and the new areas to open up may be in regards to the gospel going to Israel (and then at some point later to any remaining "heathen" nations that will listen).

Thoughts?

I don’t think that the Times of the gentiles is quite done yet. We probable have a few years left. God and Pres. Monson want as many of His children to hear the gospel as possible before it is rejected by the gentile world. My 15 year old son received his patriarchal blessing which said he would go on a mission. So I believe we have a ways to go.

OMD