The brethren will get the vaccine as soon as possible

[Luke]

Yeah there's some good stuff in there, don't get me wrong, but also plenty of Bruce's opinions

On a forum absolutely brimming with opinions, what's wrong with that?

Because I'm not publishing my opinions to the world and calling it "Mormon Doctrine", trying to make it out to be eternal truth

Do we take it that you've now shelved your book idea then?

I think about putting pen to paper every now and then but I probably won't bother

But who knows

[buffalo_girl]

I think about putting pen to paper every now and then but I probably won't bother

But who knows

Is there any solid evidence that Jesus 'put pen to paper' during his mortal ministry?

[Robin Hood]

I think about putting pen to paper every now and then but I probably won't bother

But who knows

Is there any solid evidence that Jesus 'put pen to paper' during his mortal ministry?

None... it would have been quill to papyrus.

[Pazooka]

It would be helpful if you could provide an actual quote.

From Trust in the Lord, October 2019:

“As to all of these, the wise cautions of Elders D. Todd Christofferson and Neil L. Andersen in earlier general conference messages are important to remember. Elder Christofferson taught: ‘It should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church.’5

“In the following conference, Elder Andersen taught this principle: ‘The doctrine is taught by all 15 members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. It is not hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk.’6 The family proclamation, signed by all 15 prophets, seers, and revelators, is a wonderful illustration of that principle.

“Beyond something as formal as the family proclamation, the prophetic teachings of the Presidents of the Church, affirmed by other prophets and apostles, are also an example of this.”

You’re countering Elder Packer’s “FOLLOW THE BRETHREN” statements with another “follow the brethren” statement?

It’s not follow the Brethren. It’s take what we say with a grain of salt unless it’s signed by all 15. Do you think we should discount those few pronouncements? If so, which? The Living Christ? The Family? The latest one on the Restoration? What’s wrong with them, exactly?

Getting back to the topic at hand...Elder Uchtdorf’s exact words were: “You will see the First Presidency and the Twelve...as soon as we can get it...we will receive the vaccination.” They’re endorsing this thing with something more consequential than pen and ink.

I think it’s a little funny (but probably in bad taste) to point out that they don’t have crystal balls; we have SEERS, literal seers - - at least we thought we did.

[Luke]

It’s not follow the Brethren.

But it is. And Pazooka just shared a quote where Packer said his advice was "follow the brethren". And there's plenty more where that came from

It’s take what we say with a grain of salt unless it’s signed by all 15.

Even if it is signed by all 15, it doesn't mean anything anyway

Do you think we should discount those few pronouncements? If so, which? The Living Christ? The Family? The latest one on the Restoration? What’s wrong with them, exactly?

No, and there is nothing wrong with them, but they are not revelations or anything. Just sound statements that anyone could have written. Just reiterating what the Scriptures and Prophets have said

[Allison]

I think it’s a little funny (but probably in bad taste) to point out that they don’t have crystal balls; we have SEERS, literal seers - - at least we thought we did.

It’s not follow the Brethren.

But it is. And Pazooka just shared a quote where Packer said his advice was "follow the brethren". And there's plenty more where that came from

It’s take what we say with a grain of salt unless it’s signed by all 15.

Even if it is signed by all 15, it doesn't mean anything anyway

Do you think we should discount those few pronouncements? If so, which? The Living Christ? The Family? The latest one on the Restoration? What’s wrong with them, exactly?

No, and there is nothing wrong with them, but they are not revelations or anything. Just sound statements that anyone could have written. Just reiterating what the Scriptures and Prophets have said

If they just wanted to WOW everybody, they could be more pretentious and grandiose about things. Imagine what they could have done if they wanted to pull one over on us.

I guess President Benson wouldn’t have been good enough for you either? I for one appreciate that they are modest and don’t hype up the mystique, as they probably easily could, just to impress people.

Isn’t it good that they are real and down to earth? And how long ago did President Packer die?

[Lizzy60]

I think it’s a little funny (but probably in bad taste) to point out that they don’t have crystal balls; we have SEERS, literal seers - - at least we thought we did.

It’s not follow the Brethren.

But it is. And Pazooka just shared a quote where Packer said his advice was "follow the brethren". And there's plenty more where that came from

It’s take what we say with a grain of salt unless it’s signed by all 15.

Even if it is signed by all 15, it doesn't mean anything anyway

Do you think we should discount those few pronouncements? If so, which? The Living Christ? The Family? The latest one on the Restoration? What’s wrong with them, exactly?

No, and there is nothing wrong with them, but they are not revelations or anything. Just sound statements that anyone could have written. Just reiterating what the Scriptures and Prophets have said

If they just wanted to WOW everybody, they could be more pretentious and grandiose about things. Imagine what they could have done if they wanted to pull one over on us.

I guess President Benson wouldn’t have been good enough for you either? I for one appreciate that they are modest and don’t hype up the mystique, as they probably easily could, just to impress people.

Isn’t it good that they are real and down to earth? And how long ago did President Packer die?

I guess you haven’t seen photos of Nelson’s worldwide ministry tours, the photos of all of them at the Rome Temple dedication, or the photos of Nelson entering sports stadiums with his arms upraised, to the adulation of 1000’s of fans, I mean, members?

You can purchase online digital photos of the Rome Temple dedication where the modern-day apostles are posing with statues of Christ’s Apostles, for a mere $25 from Deseret Book. Wow. Just give them $25 and they will digitally send you an image you can print and hang in your home. That’s not down-to-earth. That’s idolatry.

[Pazooka]

I think it’s a little funny (but probably in bad taste) to point out that they don’t have crystal balls; we have SEERS, literal seers - - at least we thought we did.

It’s not follow the Brethren.

But it is. And Pazooka just shared a quote where Packer said his advice was "follow the brethren". And there's plenty more where that came from

It’s take what we say with a grain of salt unless it’s signed by all 15.

Even if it is signed by all 15, it doesn't mean anything anyway

Do you think we should discount those few pronouncements? If so, which? The Living Christ? The Family? The latest one on the Restoration? What’s wrong with them, exactly?

No, and there is nothing wrong with them, but they are not revelations or anything. Just sound statements that anyone could have written. Just reiterating what the Scriptures and Prophets have said

If they just wanted to WOW everybody, they could be more pretentious and grandiose about things. Imagine what they could have done if they wanted to pull one over on us.

I guess President Benson wouldn’t have been good enough for you either? I for one appreciate that they are modest and don’t hype up the mystique, as they probably easily could, just to impress people.

Isn’t it good that they are real and down to earth? And how long ago did President Packer die?

Your mind wants to skirt the real issue. We want what we bargained for: SEERS. It doesn’t matter how modest, real or down to earth they are. If the advertising and the package say “prophet, seer and revelator” the contents had better be “prophet, seer and revelator.”

[Allison]

I think it’s a little funny (but probably in bad taste) to point out that they don’t have crystal balls; we have SEERS, literal seers - - at least we thought we did.

It’s not follow the Brethren.

But it is. And Pazooka just shared a quote where Packer said his advice was "follow the brethren". And there's plenty more where that came from

It’s take what we say with a grain of salt unless it’s signed by all 15.

Even if it is signed by all 15, it doesn't mean anything anyway

Do you think we should discount those few pronouncements? If so, which? The Living Christ? The Family? The latest one on the Restoration? What’s wrong with them, exactly?

No, and there is nothing wrong with them, but they are not revelations or anything. Just sound statements that anyone could have written. Just reiterating what the Scriptures and Prophets have said

If they just wanted to WOW everybody, they could be more pretentious and grandiose about things. Imagine what they could have done if they wanted to pull one over on us.

I guess President Benson wouldn’t have been good enough for you either? I for one appreciate that they are modest and don’t hype up the mystique, as they probably easily could, just to impress people.

Isn’t it good that they are real and down to earth? And how long ago did President Packer die?

Your mind wants to skirt the real issue. We want what we bargained for: SEERS. It doesn’t matter how modest, real or down to earth they are. If the advertising and the package say “prophet, seer and revelator” the contents had better be “prophet, seer and revelator.”

It sounds like you want to be impressed. They so easily could drop little breadcrumbs to make people think they have meetings with Christ. It would be so easy and they wouldn’t even have to lie. Instead, they are trying to teach US to be prophets. I love that about them. Sorry if they aren’t good enough for you. What does the Lord tell you to do about it? Complain?

[sunfly]

We live in a world where all things are suspect and truth is very hard to find. I have my views on COVID and they are somewhere in between the extremes. On this forum, it’s portrayed as nothing more than the sniffles. The opposite extreme calls for the most drastic of actions that are truly scary in and of themselves. My view has evolved somewhat over time as I have observed the last 10 months. I have observed the response from many perspectives, including people I know who have had varying symptoms and outcomes.

My general feeling is that it is to be taken seriously, butttt the hysteria has been overboard. I don’t believe 300k+ have died. Many of those deaths are most certainly not a result of COVID alone, and in many cases assumed or even presumed, but not verifiable. However, I’m sorry, but for some this is a very serious virus, not just the sniffles. For others, it is not much more than the sniffles. I believe we need to be cautious but not go overboard. The virus is not a hoax, the reaction at times does look a hoax. It isn’t one or the other as many here claim.

As to the vaccine, I’m not inclined to get it, but I’m also in a favorable age group. Do I want my elderly father to get it? I’m unsure. I need to do some praying about that one. This I do know, I get a feeling inside when I read the comments here and that feeling is strong that the spirit is not in the comments or opinions made by many here.

Having said all that, and back to the topic at hand. What about the church leadership and their actions? Do I believe cancelling meeting and wearing masks or accepting vaccines are signs of leadership that is fallen? In my mind it’s a big No. Do they make errors in decision making— like all of us, at times? Sure. Are they wrong here? I don’t know...but I really come back to the feelings I get as they are criticized on every point of their response. I feel maybe many here would be wise to ask themselves a few searching questions.

Perhaps such as these...
‘what if I’m the one who is wrong in my conclusions?’
‘Do I really believe the church leadership is fallen, and yet I myself have all the answers?’
‘Can the spirit be with me, if I’m contentious and also feel superior?’

Just my thoughts. I know many will disagree and that’s fine. That’s what discussion is all about.

[BeNotDeceived]

I think about putting pen to paper every now and then but I probably won't bother

But who knows

Is there any solid evidence that Jesus 'put pen to paper' during his mortal ministry?

None... it would have been quill to papyrus.

He drew in the dirt with a stick,
and drew straws, once upon a time.
Or maybe my faulty memory is on the fritz again.

Sticks and Straws may Break my Bones, but Words will Never Hurt Me.

[Aprhys]

Once everyone gets the vaccination we can return to church and return to paying a full tithe.

[Pazooka]

I think it’s a little funny (but probably in bad taste) to point out that they don’t have crystal balls; we have SEERS, literal seers - - at least we thought we did.

But it is. And Pazooka just shared a quote where Packer said his advice was "follow the brethren". And there's plenty more where that came from


Even if it is signed by all 15, it doesn't mean anything anyway


No, and there is nothing wrong with them, but they are not revelations or anything. Just sound statements that anyone could have written. Just reiterating what the Scriptures and Prophets have said

If they just wanted to WOW everybody, they could be more pretentious and grandiose about things. Imagine what they could have done if they wanted to pull one over on us.

I guess President Benson wouldn’t have been good enough for you either? I for one appreciate that they are modest and don’t hype up the mystique, as they probably easily could, just to impress people.

Isn’t it good that they are real and down to earth? And how long ago did President Packer die?

Your mind wants to skirt the real issue. We want what we bargained for: SEERS. It doesn’t matter how modest, real or down to earth they are. If the advertising and the package say “prophet, seer and revelator” the contents had better be “prophet, seer and revelator.”

It sounds like you want to be impressed. They so easily could drop little breadcrumbs to make people think they have meetings with Christ. It would be so easy and they wouldn’t even have to lie. Instead, they are trying to teach US to be prophets. I love that about them. Sorry if they aren’t good enough for you. What does the Lord tell you to do about it? Complain?

No, He tells me to read the scriptures, repent and wait upon Him...kind of like the people of early 1800s New York/Ohio/Canada area felt to do around the time Joseph Smith was being prepared to bring forth the Book of Mormon and restore the Priesthood. But I also feel obligated to warn those I can, because I have been so warned...praise the Lord.

[captainfearnot]

You can purchase online digital photos of the Rome Temple dedication where the modern-day apostles are posing with statues of Christ’s Apostles, for a mere $25 from Deseret Book. Wow. Just give them $25 and they will digitally send you an image you can print and hang in your home. That’s not down-to-earth. That’s idolatry.

It also provides a convenient deflection whenever the commercialism of someone like Kevin Zadai is raised.

from his website:

"In 1992 during a routine surgery, I met with Jesus on the other side"...and now I profit from it.

From Sid Roth.org: "Recently Kevin Zadai had a powerful visitation that lasted all night. Jesus gave Kevin compelling revelations of the spirit realm around us today AND the near future." ...SO send us your money! this guy talks to god! BUY our stuff!!!

false visions, false manifestations sold for profit. seen it before.

Its sad that such hucksters gain traction in LDS circles.

This is no different than what the LDS Church does. Elder Uchtdorf gave a talk about flowers, and you can listen to his talk for free, but you can also buy a book with the talk in it, and all sorts of kitch at Deseret Book themed around the talk. There are many other examples I could give.

Would you also label our Top 15 “hucksters”?

You just did. Well, idolatry. But your position that what Zadai does is okay because the apostles do it too is kind of undermined by your position that what the apostles do is not, in fact, okay. Wouldn't you say?

It works both ways. If what Zadai does is no different than what the LDS Church does, then what the LDS Church does is no different than what Zadai does. Congrats on trading one version of idolatry for another.

[bbsion]

That makes me sick, not surprised though. Scientists and methods. Not prophets and miracles? I'm about done...

[buffalo_girl]

Doctrine & Covenants 42
43 And whosoever among you are sick, and have not faith to be healed, but believe, shall be nourished with all tenderness, with herbs and mild food, and that not by the hand of an enemy.
44 And the elders of the church, two or more, shall be called, and shall pray for and lay their hands upon them in my name; and if they die they shall die unto me, and if they live they shall live unto me.

The Doctrine of Christ, By Elder D. Todd Christofferson, April 2012 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... t?lang=eng
"These same patterns are followed today in the restored Church of Jesus Christ. The President of the Church may announce or interpret doctrines based on revelation to him (see, for example, D&C 138). Doctrinal exposition may also come through the combined council of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (see, for example, Official Declaration 2). Council deliberations will often include a weighing of canonized scriptures, the teachings of Church leaders, and past practice. But in the end, just as in the New Testament Church, the objective is not simply consensus among council members but revelation from God. It is a process involving both reason and faith for obtaining the mind and will of the Lord.
At the same time it should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.”
President Clark, quoted earlier, observed:
“To this point runs a simple story my father told me as a boy, I do not know on what authority, but it illustrates the point. His story was that during the excitement incident to the coming of [Johnston’s] Army, Brother Brigham preached to the people in a morning meeting a sermon vibrant with defiance to the approaching army, and declaring an intention to oppose and drive them back. In the afternoon meeting he arose and said that Brigham Young had been talking in the morning, but the Lord was going to talk now. He then delivered an address, the tempo of which was the opposite from the morning talk. … “… The Church will know by the testimony of the Holy Ghost in the body of the members, whether the brethren in voicing their views are ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost’; and in due time that knowledge will be made manifest.”
The Prophet Joseph Smith confirmed the Savior’s central role in our doctrine in one definitive sentence: “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”"

OK ~ I fail to comprehend where this process of obtaining Revelation "for the whole Church" has anything to do with critical personal decisions involving one's health or the health of family members over whom one has personal responsibility.

JST Genesis 14https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 4?lang=eng
30 For God having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself; that every one being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course;
31 To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God; to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers; and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world.
32 And men having this faith, coming up unto this order of God, were translated and taken up into heaven.

Moroni was alone for over 20 years to wander the continent ahead of those who sought his life. He had no one but The Lord & ministering angels to sustain him and give him counsel. Worthiness seems to be fundamental to the gifts described in Genesis 14. I don't see where it says 'wait for the prophet to tell you what to do'. What happens when we may have NO access to any official Church leadership?

[Great8]

It could be far more complex than any of us realize, what the Brethren are confronted with behind the scenes, and cannot openly discuss.

But with all of that, and their mask-wearing, President Nelson never stops imploring each of us to Hear Him (Christ). There is a wonderful new article out on the Church web site about growing into the principle of revelation.

I honestly believe he is trying to get us to tune in to where all of the answers really are. I think he is saying that if there is any discrepancy between official church policy and the whisperings of the Spirit, to go with the Spirit every time.

It could be that the anti-mask and anti-vaxx movement needs to be a true grassroots movement. It’s hard to judge a Prophet whose primary message to the members is to be prophets themselves. That is not what a man who is trying to mislead people would say.

IDK...

When an abusive man hits his wife but also tells her he loves her... It could be true, but what's more important to the woman?

"Get your own revelation............about me "

I don't think the 15 are trying to be deceptive and whatnot.... I believe they, along with they're parents & predecessors, are deceived themselves.

Our history, our theology, etc...all lead to a conclusion that :

they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

You’re right, it could be exactly that, and they might not yet know the right questions to ask. And yet the one thing coming through loud and clear is to teach and teach and teach us to get our own revelation. Thank Heaven for that!

A flurry of letters just might get their attention, as well as a noticeable number of missionaries going home rather than taking the vaccine.

Maybe they don’t know where to begin to research our side of the vaccine question. Maybe they could use some powerful information, given respectfully and with kindness and love.

To make a wonderful airplane analogy, wouldn't that be like a passenger in the economy section trying to alert someone who is in the cockpit, wearing a captain's uniform, that a missile is incoming, but the radar has been switched off and there is a policy that the radar not be turned back on?

I just read that as if Deiter was saying it with his accent. lol

[heliocentr1c]

I think it’s a little funny (but probably in bad taste) to point out that they don’t have crystal balls; we have SEERS, literal seers - - at least we thought we did.

But it is. And Pazooka just shared a quote where Packer said his advice was "follow the brethren". And there's plenty more where that came from


Even if it is signed by all 15, it doesn't mean anything anyway


No, and there is nothing wrong with them, but they are not revelations or anything. Just sound statements that anyone could have written. Just reiterating what the Scriptures and Prophets have said

If they just wanted to WOW everybody, they could be more pretentious and grandiose about things. Imagine what they could have done if they wanted to pull one over on us.

I guess President Benson wouldn’t have been good enough for you either? I for one appreciate that they are modest and don’t hype up the mystique, as they probably easily could, just to impress people.

Isn’t it good that they are real and down to earth? And how long ago did President Packer die?

Your mind wants to skirt the real issue. We want what we bargained for: SEERS. It doesn’t matter how modest, real or down to earth they are. If the advertising and the package say “prophet, seer and revelator” the contents had better be “prophet, seer and revelator.”

It sounds like you want to be impressed. They so easily could drop little breadcrumbs to make people think they have meetings with Christ. It would be so easy and they wouldn’t even have to lie. Instead, they are trying to teach US to be prophets. I love that about them. Sorry if they aren’t good enough for you. What does the Lord tell you to do about it? Complain?

They so easily could drop little breadcrumbs to make people think they have meetings with Christ. It would be so easy and they wouldn’t even have to lie.

If they were to drop bread crumbs alluding to meetings w/ Christ when no such meetings had taken place, this would be a form of deception. Or in other words, a lie. All forms of lying and deceit come from Satan. God is not a liar (nor are the men He calls to be prophets and speak HIS words, not theirs). Are you really arguing that we should be thankful and trust/follow the 15 simply bc they aren't intentionally (in your opinion) deceiving us by insinuating they meet w/ Christ? Isn't this line of reasoning built on a false premise - that just bc they haven't falsely alluded to meetings w/ Christ (again, in your opinion/judgement) when they could have, then EVERYTHING they say must therefore be trustworthy? Can we trust everything a person says just bc they could have taken greater advantage of us prior? Isn't it true that cunning people pick and choose the timing and means by which they manipulate others so as not to get caught doing it and thus maintain their ability to manipulate?

Instead, they are trying to teach US to be prophets.

Can you provide ANY quotation from the current 15 in which they say that an average member who is not a GA can or should be considered a prophet, where they use the actual word 'prophet'? It's true they talk about personal revelation. Any personal revelation the "common folk" might receive is always taught to be circumscribed or inferior to whatever their own judgements as "prophets, seers, and revelators" might be. Isn't the language you're using i.e " Instead, they are trying to teach US to be prophets" a little disingenuous? Do you think it's plain and completely truthful? Do you really expect people who are in the know about this to take this statement seriously? Can you back it up with any quotes that talk about non GA members being considered "prophets" by the GAs themselves?


All of this inside information about the GA's daughter-in- law you are friends w/ is great. However, can you substantiate any of it? Has the GA you reference made any public statements revealing/explaining his take on things? Do you really expect members to stake their eternal salvation on some third handed "inside info" they got on a forum just bc their leaders are too cowardly to come out and tell the truth plainly (like literally ALL real prophets of God do).

Are the members of the LDS church being treated w/ the respect, decency, and much needed transparency they deserve by their own leadership right now? Why are they having to constantly guess and conjecture? Does this imply respect for the common member by the leadership of the church or does it imply/suggest a lack of respect and transparency? Which is more likely?

Why are the members having to "besiege" their leaders w/ letters and information which you can easily find for free? Doesn;t the church have trillions of dollars at their disposal? They couldn't appoint a small (or large) committee and allot, idk, maybe $500k to try to get real and reliable information about all this? Isn't this the least they could do as "leaders"? Haven't multiple GAs borne their testimonies (in conference even) that the 15 are the most "up to date" people they know about what's going on in the world? How can they be both up to date and know so little about this current situation, needing a common member to inform them? Aren't they supposed to be leading the common members?


Why does Uchtdorf's body language seem so nervous in the video? Why is he constantly looking to the other 2 apostles as if he's hoping for one of them to chime in (and take the focus off him)? If he is a prophet of God, where is his confidence? His trust in the Lord? Why so nervous? If he doesn't have an answer why doesn't he just be honest and admit he doesn't know? Is honesty an important principle of the gospel? Are prophets "exempt" from being honest?

[heliocentr1c]

That makes me sick, not surprised though. Scientists and methods. Not prophets and miracles? I'm about done...

"And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel. And they say unto the people, Hearken unto us and hear ye our precept, for behold, there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men. Behold, hearken ye unto my precept. If they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; for this day he is not a God of miracles; he hath done his work."

2 Nephi

[Allison]

If they just wanted to WOW everybody, they could be more pretentious and grandiose about things. Imagine what they could have done if they wanted to pull one over on us.

I guess President Benson wouldn’t have been good enough for you either? I for one appreciate that they are modest and don’t hype up the mystique, as they probably easily could, just to impress people.

Isn’t it good that they are real and down to earth? And how long ago did President Packer die?

Your mind wants to skirt the real issue. We want what we bargained for: SEERS. It doesn’t matter how modest, real or down to earth they are. If the advertising and the package say “prophet, seer and revelator” the contents had better be “prophet, seer and revelator.”

It sounds like you want to be impressed. They so easily could drop little breadcrumbs to make people think they have meetings with Christ. It would be so easy and they wouldn’t even have to lie. Instead, they are trying to teach US to be prophets. I love that about them. Sorry if they aren’t good enough for you. What does the Lord tell you to do about it? Complain?

They so easily could drop little breadcrumbs to make people think they have meetings with Christ. It would be so easy and they wouldn’t even have to lie.

If they were to drop bread crumbs alluding to meetings w/ Christ when no such meetings had taken place, this would be a form of deception. Or in other words, a lie. All forms of lying and deceit come from Satan. God is not a liar (nor are the men He calls to be prophets and speak HIS words, not theirs). Are you really arguing that we should be thankful and trust/follow the 15 simply bc they aren't intentionally (in your opinion) deceiving us by insinuating they meet w/ Christ? Isn't this line of reasoning built on a false premise - that just bc they haven't falsely alluded to meetings w/ Christ (again, in your opinion/judgement) when they could have, then EVERYTHING they say must therefore be trustworthy? Can we trust everything a person says just bc they could have taken greater advantage of us prior? Isn't it true that cunning people pick and choose the timing and means by which they manipulate others so as not to get caught doing it and thus maintain their ability to manipulate?

Instead, they are trying to teach US to be prophets.

Can you provide ANY quotation from the current 15 in which they say that an average member who is not a GA can or should be considered a prophet, where they use the actual word 'prophet'? It's true they talk about personal revelation. Any personal revelation the "common folk" might receive is always taught to be circumscribed or inferior to whatever their own judgements as "prophets, seers, and revelators" might be. Isn't the language you're using i.e " Instead, they are trying to teach US to be prophets" a little disingenuous? Do you think it's plain and completely truthful? Do you really expect people who are in the know about this to take this statement seriously? Can you back it up with any quotes that talk about non GA members being considered "prophets" by the GAs themselves?


All of this inside information about the GA's daughter-in- law you are friends w/ is great. However, can you substantiate any of it? Has the GA you reference made any public statements revealing/explaining his take on things? Do you really expect members to stake their eternal salvation on some third handed "inside info" they got on a forum just bc their leaders are too cowardly to come out and tell the truth plainly (like literally ALL real prophets of God do).

Are the members of the LDS church being treated w/ the respect, decency, and much needed transparency they deserve by their own leadership right now? Why are they having to constantly guess and conjecture? Does this imply respect for the common member by the leadership of the church or does it imply/suggest a lack of respect and transparency? Which is more likely?

Why are the members having to "besiege" their leaders w/ letters and information which you can easily find for free? Doesn;t the church have trillions of dollars at their disposal? They couldn't appoint a small (or large) committee and allot, idk, maybe $500k to try to get real and reliable information about all this? Isn't this the least they could do as "leaders"? Haven't multiple GAs borne their testimonies (in conference even) that the 15 are the most "up to date" people they know about what's going on in the world? How can they be both up to date and know so little about this current situation, needing a common member to inform them? Aren't they supposed to be leading the common members?


Why does Uchtdorf's body language seem so nervous in the video? Why is he constantly looking to the other 2 apostles as if he's hoping for one of them to chime in (and take the focus off him)? If he is a prophet of God, where is his confidence? His trust in the Lord? Why so nervous? If he doesn't have an answer why doesn't he just be honest and admit he doesn't know? Is honesty an important principle of the gospel? Are prophets "exempt" from being honest?

No, for heaven’s sake. He is just unhappy that they aren’t putting out more amazing and flashy stuff, and I was trying to think of an extreme example of something flashy.

My point is simply that he is using the fact that they are guileless against them, to accuse them. It is perfectly possible that the Lord has nothing new and flashy for us at this point, and they make no pretense to try to seem that they are more than they really are. I think it’s a good thing, but some people want to be perpetually awed, I suppose.

[heliocentr1c]

Your mind wants to skirt the real issue. We want what we bargained for: SEERS. It doesn’t matter how modest, real or down to earth they are. If the advertising and the package say “prophet, seer and revelator” the contents had better be “prophet, seer and revelator.”

It sounds like you want to be impressed. They so easily could drop little breadcrumbs to make people think they have meetings with Christ. It would be so easy and they wouldn’t even have to lie. Instead, they are trying to teach US to be prophets. I love that about them. Sorry if they aren’t good enough for you. What does the Lord tell you to do about it? Complain?

They so easily could drop little breadcrumbs to make people think they have meetings with Christ. It would be so easy and they wouldn’t even have to lie.

If they were to drop bread crumbs alluding to meetings w/ Christ when no such meetings had taken place, this would be a form of deception. Or in other words, a lie. All forms of lying and deceit come from Satan. God is not a liar (nor are the men He calls to be prophets and speak HIS words, not theirs). Are you really arguing that we should be thankful and trust/follow the 15 simply bc they aren't intentionally (in your opinion) deceiving us by insinuating they meet w/ Christ? Isn't this line of reasoning built on a false premise - that just bc they haven't falsely alluded to meetings w/ Christ (again, in your opinion/judgement) when they could have, then EVERYTHING they say must therefore be trustworthy? Can we trust everything a person says just bc they could have taken greater advantage of us prior? Isn't it true that cunning people pick and choose the timing and means by which they manipulate others so as not to get caught doing it and thus maintain their ability to manipulate?

Instead, they are trying to teach US to be prophets.

Can you provide ANY quotation from the current 15 in which they say that an average member who is not a GA can or should be considered a prophet, where they use the actual word 'prophet'? It's true they talk about personal revelation. Any personal revelation the "common folk" might receive is always taught to be circumscribed or inferior to whatever their own judgements as "prophets, seers, and revelators" might be. Isn't the language you're using i.e " Instead, they are trying to teach US to be prophets" a little disingenuous? Do you think it's plain and completely truthful? Do you really expect people who are in the know about this to take this statement seriously? Can you back it up with any quotes that talk about non GA members being considered "prophets" by the GAs themselves?


All of this inside information about the GA's daughter-in- law you are friends w/ is great. However, can you substantiate any of it? Has the GA you reference made any public statements revealing/explaining his take on things? Do you really expect members to stake their eternal salvation on some third handed "inside info" they got on a forum just bc their leaders are too cowardly to come out and tell the truth plainly (like literally ALL real prophets of God do).

Are the members of the LDS church being treated w/ the respect, decency, and much needed transparency they deserve by their own leadership right now? Why are they having to constantly guess and conjecture? Does this imply respect for the common member by the leadership of the church or does it imply/suggest a lack of respect and transparency? Which is more likely?

Why are the members having to "besiege" their leaders w/ letters and information which you can easily find for free? Doesn;t the church have trillions of dollars at their disposal? They couldn't appoint a small (or large) committee and allot, idk, maybe $500k to try to get real and reliable information about all this? Isn't this the least they could do as "leaders"? Haven't multiple GAs borne their testimonies (in conference even) that the 15 are the most "up to date" people they know about what's going on in the world? How can they be both up to date and know so little about this current situation, needing a common member to inform them? Aren't they supposed to be leading the common members?


Why does Uchtdorf's body language seem so nervous in the video? Why is he constantly looking to the other 2 apostles as if he's hoping for one of them to chime in (and take the focus off him)? If he is a prophet of God, where is his confidence? His trust in the Lord? Why so nervous? If he doesn't have an answer why doesn't he just be honest and admit he doesn't know? Is honesty an important principle of the gospel? Are prophets "exempt" from being honest?

No, for heaven’s sake. He is just unhappy that they aren’t putting out more amazing and flashy stuff, and I was trying to think of an extreme example of something flashy.

My point is simply that he is using the fact that they are guileless against them, to accuse them. It is perfectly possible that the Lord has nothing new and flashy for us at this point, and they make no pretense to try to seem that they are more than they really are. I think it’s a good thing, but some people want to be perpetually awed, I suppose.

Ok, so... what I'm hearing is this:

you're essentially unable (or unwilling) to provide any concrete examples of the current 15 teaching the doctrine that members of the church can be prophets? Do I have that right?

[buffalo_girl]

Are we absolutely sure of the authenticity of this video clip?

So many of the arguments on this forum are constructed on nonexistent scaffolding.

[Allison]

It sounds like you want to be impressed. They so easily could drop little breadcrumbs to make people think they have meetings with Christ. It would be so easy and they wouldn’t even have to lie. Instead, they are trying to teach US to be prophets. I love that about them. Sorry if they aren’t good enough for you. What does the Lord tell you to do about it? Complain?

They so easily could drop little breadcrumbs to make people think they have meetings with Christ. It would be so easy and they wouldn’t even have to lie.

If they were to drop bread crumbs alluding to meetings w/ Christ when no such meetings had taken place, this would be a form of deception. Or in other words, a lie. All forms of lying and deceit come from Satan. God is not a liar (nor are the men He calls to be prophets and speak HIS words, not theirs). Are you really arguing that we should be thankful and trust/follow the 15 simply bc they aren't intentionally (in your opinion) deceiving us by insinuating they meet w/ Christ? Isn't this line of reasoning built on a false premise - that just bc they haven't falsely alluded to meetings w/ Christ (again, in your opinion/judgement) when they could have, then EVERYTHING they say must therefore be trustworthy? Can we trust everything a person says just bc they could have taken greater advantage of us prior? Isn't it true that cunning people pick and choose the timing and means by which they manipulate others so as not to get caught doing it and thus maintain their ability to manipulate?

Instead, they are trying to teach US to be prophets.

Can you provide ANY quotation from the current 15 in which they say that an average member who is not a GA can or should be considered a prophet, where they use the actual word 'prophet'? It's true they talk about personal revelation. Any personal revelation the "common folk" might receive is always taught to be circumscribed or inferior to whatever their own judgements as "prophets, seers, and revelators" might be. Isn't the language you're using i.e " Instead, they are trying to teach US to be prophets" a little disingenuous? Do you think it's plain and completely truthful? Do you really expect people who are in the know about this to take this statement seriously? Can you back it up with any quotes that talk about non GA members being considered "prophets" by the GAs themselves?


All of this inside information about the GA's daughter-in- law you are friends w/ is great. However, can you substantiate any of it? Has the GA you reference made any public statements revealing/explaining his take on things? Do you really expect members to stake their eternal salvation on some third handed "inside info" they got on a forum just bc their leaders are too cowardly to come out and tell the truth plainly (like literally ALL real prophets of God do).

Are the members of the LDS church being treated w/ the respect, decency, and much needed transparency they deserve by their own leadership right now? Why are they having to constantly guess and conjecture? Does this imply respect for the common member by the leadership of the church or does it imply/suggest a lack of respect and transparency? Which is more likely?

Why are the members having to "besiege" their leaders w/ letters and information which you can easily find for free? Doesn;t the church have trillions of dollars at their disposal? They couldn't appoint a small (or large) committee and allot, idk, maybe $500k to try to get real and reliable information about all this? Isn't this the least they could do as "leaders"? Haven't multiple GAs borne their testimonies (in conference even) that the 15 are the most "up to date" people they know about what's going on in the world? How can they be both up to date and know so little about this current situation, needing a common member to inform them? Aren't they supposed to be leading the common members?


Why does Uchtdorf's body language seem so nervous in the video? Why is he constantly looking to the other 2 apostles as if he's hoping for one of them to chime in (and take the focus off him)? If he is a prophet of God, where is his confidence? His trust in the Lord? Why so nervous? If he doesn't have an answer why doesn't he just be honest and admit he doesn't know? Is honesty an important principle of the gospel? Are prophets "exempt" from being honest?

No, for heaven’s sake. He is just unhappy that they aren’t putting out more amazing and flashy stuff, and I was trying to think of an extreme example of something flashy.

My point is simply that he is using the fact that they are guileless against them, to accuse them. It is perfectly possible that the Lord has nothing new and flashy for us at this point, and they make no pretense to try to seem that they are more than they really are. I think it’s a good thing, but some people want to be perpetually awed, I suppose.

Ok, so... what I'm hearing is this:

you're essentially unable (or unwilling) to provide any concrete examples of the current 15 teaching the doctrine that members of the church can be prophets? Do I have that right?

Are you joking? Have you been paying attention to them? That is exactly what they have been teaching and urging each and every one of us to learn how to do. What am I missing here?

[heliocentr1c]

If they were to drop bread crumbs alluding to meetings w/ Christ when no such meetings had taken place, this would be a form of deception. Or in other words, a lie. All forms of lying and deceit come from Satan. God is not a liar (nor are the men He calls to be prophets and speak HIS words, not theirs). Are you really arguing that we should be thankful and trust/follow the 15 simply bc they aren't intentionally (in your opinion) deceiving us by insinuating they meet w/ Christ? Isn't this line of reasoning built on a false premise - that just bc they haven't falsely alluded to meetings w/ Christ (again, in your opinion/judgement) when they could have, then EVERYTHING they say must therefore be trustworthy? Can we trust everything a person says just bc they could have taken greater advantage of us prior? Isn't it true that cunning people pick and choose the timing and means by which they manipulate others so as not to get caught doing it and thus maintain their ability to manipulate?




Can you provide ANY quotation from the current 15 in which they say that an average member who is not a GA can or should be considered a prophet, where they use the actual word 'prophet'? It's true they talk about personal revelation. Any personal revelation the "common folk" might receive is always taught to be circumscribed or inferior to whatever their own judgements as "prophets, seers, and revelators" might be. Isn't the language you're using i.e " Instead, they are trying to teach US to be prophets" a little disingenuous? Do you think it's plain and completely truthful? Do you really expect people who are in the know about this to take this statement seriously? Can you back it up with any quotes that talk about non GA members being considered "prophets" by the GAs themselves?


All of this inside information about the GA's daughter-in- law you are friends w/ is great. However, can you substantiate any of it? Has the GA you reference made any public statements revealing/explaining his take on things? Do you really expect members to stake their eternal salvation on some third handed "inside info" they got on a forum just bc their leaders are too cowardly to come out and tell the truth plainly (like literally ALL real prophets of God do).

Are the members of the LDS church being treated w/ the respect, decency, and much needed transparency they deserve by their own leadership right now? Why are they having to constantly guess and conjecture? Does this imply respect for the common member by the leadership of the church or does it imply/suggest a lack of respect and transparency? Which is more likely?

Why are the members having to "besiege" their leaders w/ letters and information which you can easily find for free? Doesn;t the church have trillions of dollars at their disposal? They couldn't appoint a small (or large) committee and allot, idk, maybe $500k to try to get real and reliable information about all this? Isn't this the least they could do as "leaders"? Haven't multiple GAs borne their testimonies (in conference even) that the 15 are the most "up to date" people they know about what's going on in the world? How can they be both up to date and know so little about this current situation, needing a common member to inform them? Aren't they supposed to be leading the common members?


Why does Uchtdorf's body language seem so nervous in the video? Why is he constantly looking to the other 2 apostles as if he's hoping for one of them to chime in (and take the focus off him)? If he is a prophet of God, where is his confidence? His trust in the Lord? Why so nervous? If he doesn't have an answer why doesn't he just be honest and admit he doesn't know? Is honesty an important principle of the gospel? Are prophets "exempt" from being honest?

No, for heaven’s sake. He is just unhappy that they aren’t putting out more amazing and flashy stuff, and I was trying to think of an extreme example of something flashy.

My point is simply that he is using the fact that they are guileless against them, to accuse them. It is perfectly possible that the Lord has nothing new and flashy for us at this point, and they make no pretense to try to seem that they are more than they really are. I think it’s a good thing, but some people want to be perpetually awed, I suppose.

Ok, so... what I'm hearing is this:

you're essentially unable (or unwilling) to provide any concrete examples of the current 15 teaching the doctrine that members of the church can be prophets? Do I have that right?

Are you joking? Have you been paying attention to them? That is exactly what they have been teaching and urging each and every one of us to learn how to do. What am I missing here?

Oh, I must have missed it. Do you mind providing an actual quotation of them teaching it? Like a quote from a talk they gave? In which they talk about members being prophets?

[SPIRIT]

SMH !
now I know I've heard everything. -
heard all I want to hear from the church.