Not paying tithing feels empowering?

[Aprhys]

Pray tell what the commandment is please because I cannot find one strict example of what is 10%. Is it on your net or gross? Some apostles and prophets said that you pay after you have taken care of your families needs first. But now we are supposed to pay even if our kids are shoeless and starving. So of there is an actual commandment of tithing I would like to follow it so help me out here.

Read D&C 119. It's not Net or Gross. It's "one-tenth of all their interest annually" ... "tithed of their surplus properties".

So what I am reading is that it is indeed AFTER I have taken care of my families needs. My surplus is what I have left after eating, clothing and housing my family. With medical bills this year I am in the negative so I shouldn't have paid any tithing.

[creator]

Read D&C 119. It's not Net or Gross. It's "one-tenth of all their interest annually" ... "tithed of their surplus properties".

So what I am reading is that it is indeed AFTER I have taken care of my families needs. My surplus is what I have left after eating, clothing and housing my family. With medical bills this year I am in the negative so I shouldn't have paid any tithing.

Correct.

"The celestial law requires ... one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after (See D&C 119:4). IF IT REQUIRES ALL MAN CAN EARN TO SUPPORT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, HE IS NOT TITHED AT ALL. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor)

[Luke]

Pray tell what the commandment is please because I cannot find one strict example of what is 10%. Is it on your net or gross? Some apostles and prophets said that you pay after you have taken care of your families needs first. But now we are supposed to pay even if our kids are shoeless and starving. So of there is an actual commandment of tithing I would like to follow it so help me out here.

Read D&C 119. It's not Net or Gross. It's "one-tenth of all their interest annually" ... "tithed of their surplus properties".

So what I am reading is that it is indeed AFTER I have taken care of my families needs. My surplus is what I have left after eating, clothing and housing my family. With medical bills this year I am in the negative so I shouldn't have paid any tithing.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=57669

[OCDMOM]

When the world needs the Church and their money, I don't want to hear any of the Tithing deniers to whine for help

[Thinker]

When the world needs the Church and their money, I don't want to hear any of the Tithing deniers to whine for help

They already need it & tithes are MEANT for those in need, but Oaks said no, as they sit on BILLIONS of illegally hoarded donations.



JST Genesis 14:37-39:
“God had appointed to receive tithes FOR THE POOR. Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him MORE THAN THAT WHICH HE HAD NEED.”

Church leaders have pressured the poor to give them money before feeding their children...

And we know from Christ’s teachings about those who hurt children &/or take rather than help those in need...

• ”Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.” -Matthew 25:41-43

• "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” - Matthew 18:6

[Robin Hood]

... They didn't expect Israel to win the war. When they did, Israel refused to let the refugees come back and I don't blame them. The Arab countries created the refugees, now they have to deal with it.
Serves them right.

How do you think Israel won?

U.S. Financial Aid To Israel 1948-Present: $84, 854, 827, 200
https://www.wrmea.org/u.s.-aid-to-israe ... esent.html




And to whom has Israel been giving US military intelligence?

Report: Israel Passes U.S. Military Technology to China
https://www.military.com/defensetech/20 ... y-to-china

Why the U.S. Can’t Get Israel to Break Up With China
“Israel gets billions of dollars in military aid from the United States every year, and the two allies share broad strategic, political, and cultural interests.” (which is significantly why Israel “won.”)
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/16/us ... ina-deals/

So what?

[Thinker]

... They didn't expect Israel to win the war. When they did, Israel refused to let the refugees come back and I don't blame them. The Arab countries created the refugees, now they have to deal with it.
Serves them right.

How do you think Israel won?

U.S. Financial Aid To Israel 1948-Present: $84, 854, 827, 200
https://www.wrmea.org/u.s.-aid-to-israe ... esent.html



And to whom has Israel been giving US military intelligence?

Report: Israel Passes U.S. Military Technology to China
https://www.military.com/defensetech/20 ... y-to-china

Why the U.S. Can’t Get Israel to Break Up With China
“Israel gets billions of dollars in military aid from the United States every year, and the two allies share broad strategic, political, and cultural interests.” (which is significantly why Israel “won.”)
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/16/us ... ina-deals/

So what?

China’s goal is to replace the US as superpower by their centennial anniversary.
The new world order goal is to destroy nations, which China is increasingly able to do to the US, thanks to US/Zionist - backed dogma & funding. How many members have been deceived into blindly supporting Zionism/Israel?

Zionism has been twisted to mean the opposite of “no poor among them” - it’s been used even in our own church - to justify stealing lands, supporting all kinds of evil for fear of being politically incorrect & labeled “anti-semetic.” And it looks as if to be our own downfall. Look at who is controlling government, media & big banks...
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54582

Why are church leaders so eager to support evil NWO/UN goals? What do they do with all that money they collect? Tithing slips have fine print disclaimer saying they can spend donations however they want. (For those who don’t realize this: http://www.missedinsunday.com/wp-conten ... nces_5.jpg). Most of us are wise stewards of our funds... even more need to be so with sacred funds.

[Aprhys]

When the world needs the Church and their money, I don't want to hear any of the Tithing deniers to whine for help

If we ever see the day when the world comes crawling to the church for money we have most likely arrived at the point where money is useless.

[BeHealthy94]

They already need it & tithes are MEANT for those in need, but Oaks said no, as they sit on BILLIONS of illegally hoarded donations.

I remember one summer as a kid, my brothers, my cousins and I would anxiously wait for my uncle to come home from his college classes so he could take us fishing on the lake. He loved hanging out with us because he had a lot of time, he was a single guy right off his mission.

All summer long, us kids maintained that same enthusiasm and joy just waiting for uncle to come home so he could take us fishing. As soon as he stepped out of his car..."uncle can we go fishing?", as soon as he would sit at the kitchen table to eat his lunch..."uncle can we go fishing?"

By the end of summer he was at his wits ends with us. One day as he tried to do other chores around the house and as we continuously bugged him to take us fishing he said in a frustrated voice..."DONT YOU HAVE FATHERS OF YOUR OWN!"

lol, I get a kick just thinking about this time in my life when our own fathers were on the couch watching TV and us kids went and bugged my young single uncle because we knew he would take us.

My point is that the Church is not the personal bank account for the world, The church is not that uncle that will stop and do everything for your town/country/city/state because your own government is corrupt and greedy.


We should all stop paying taxes before we stop paying tithing...thats where the real problem exist.

[Aprhys]

They already need it & tithes are MEANT for those in need, but Oaks said no, as they sit on BILLIONS of illegally hoarded donations.

I remember one summer as a kid, my brothers, my cousins and I would anxiously wait for my uncle to come home from his college classes so he could take us fishing on the lake. He loved hanging out with us because he had a lot of time, he was a single guy right off his mission.

All summer long, us kids maintained that same enthusiasm and joy just waiting for uncle to come home so he could take us fishing. As soon as he stepped out of his car..."uncle can we go fishing?", as soon as he would sit at the kitchen table to eat his lunch..."uncle can we go fishing?"

By the end of summer he was at his wits ends with us. One day as he tried to do other chores around the house and as we continuously bugged him to take us fishing he said in a frustrated voice..."DONT YOU HAVE FATHERS OF YOUR OWN!"

lol, I get a kick just thinking about this time in my life when our own fathers were on the couch watching TV and us kids went and bugged my young single uncle because we knew he would take us.

My point is that the Church is not the personal bank account for the world, The church is not that uncle that will stop and do everything for your town/country/city/state because your own government is corrupt and greedy.


We should all stop paying taxes before we stop paying tithing...thats where the real problem exist.

Perhaps the leaders of the church could take a lesson from your story. Maybe the members aren't the personal bank account for the leaders to squander and pilfer. Maybe they need to reevaluate where they are aren't spending spending our offerings. Maybe these men and women who most likely have never gone without a meal other than for fast Sunday need to stop proselytizing to the members about how we need to pay tithing even if our kids are starving. Maybe they need to live within their means like they constantly preach to us too. Hypocrites all of them.

[BeHealthy94]

They already need it & tithes are MEANT for those in need, but Oaks said no, as they sit on BILLIONS of illegally hoarded donations.

I remember one summer as a kid, my brothers, my cousins and I would anxiously wait for my uncle to come home from his college classes so he could take us fishing on the lake. He loved hanging out with us because he had a lot of time, he was a single guy right off his mission.

All summer long, us kids maintained that same enthusiasm and joy just waiting for uncle to come home so he could take us fishing. As soon as he stepped out of his car..."uncle can we go fishing?", as soon as he would sit at the kitchen table to eat his lunch..."uncle can we go fishing?"

By the end of summer he was at his wits ends with us. One day as he tried to do other chores around the house and as we continuously bugged him to take us fishing he said in a frustrated voice..."DONT YOU HAVE FATHERS OF YOUR OWN!"

lol, I get a kick just thinking about this time in my life when our own fathers were on the couch watching TV and us kids went and bugged my young single uncle because we knew he would take us.

My point is that the Church is not the personal bank account for the world, The church is not that uncle that will stop and do everything for your town/country/city/state because your own government is corrupt and greedy.


We should all stop paying taxes before we stop paying tithing...thats where the real problem exist.

Perhaps the leaders of the church could take a lesson from your story. Maybe the members aren't the personal bank account for the leaders to squander and pilfer. Maybe they need to reevaluate where they are aren't spending spending our offerings. Maybe these men and women who most likely have never gone without a meal other than for fast Sunday need to stop proselytizing to the members about how we need to pay tithing even if our kids are starving. Maybe they need to live within their means like they constantly preach to us too. Hypocrites all of them.

You should start your own church and use tithing in a better way then you feel the LDS church can do. You know there are over 41,000 christian denominations all started because one person wanted to do it his/her own way. You have the freedom to do the same.

My mother in law paid a full tithe off what little she made at her part time job but was still poor enough to receive some rent assistance from the church and food from the bishops store house. If your kids are starving its not because of 10% tithing, its because you dont simply ask the bishop for food.

[Thinker]

They already need it & tithes are MEANT for those in need, but Oaks said no, as they sit on BILLIONS of illegally hoarded donations.

...the church is not the personal bank account for the world, The church is not that uncle that will stop and do everything for your town/country/city/state because your own government is corrupt and greedy.

As Aprhys explained, you’ve got it backwards. Members are not the greedy leaders’ bank account. Paying money to dishonest men is NOT paying money to God.

• ”God has no need of your money, but the poor have. You give it to the poor, & God receives it.”

• ”Inasmuch as ye have done it into the least of these, ye have done it unto me.”

How many people - including members - suffer due to evil financial burdens the church has placed on them! Lds finances are not handled in Christ-like ways.
1) Lds leaders warped scripture to get more money (tithes are supposed to be based on increase not income).
2) They take from the poor by demanding based on income when the poor have no increase left.
3) They disobey the law of tithing (Deut 14:28-29 - which is not taught in curriculum about tithing) - which states that at least 1/3 of tithes are supposed to be given to the poor. See also JST Genesis 14:37-39.
4) Finances are kept secret except Oaks admitted no tithes go to the poor.
5) They use the temple to make money - charging for worthiness. This type of thing promoted Christ to express anger.

My guess is that not all church leaders agree with this evil, nevertheless, they all go along with it. And despite all the good they do, they will be held accountable for this.

[BeHealthy94]

Seriously guys/gals if you have a problem with tithing then dont pay it! Simple!

If you have a problem with the temple then dont go! Heck dont even go to church if you dont like your bishop.

I did that for 5 years..no church, no tithing, no temple! I did and am doing a lot of soul searching and have come a long way, I am experiencing a change in heart and started back up paying tithing, church has come to me via zoom broadcast in my living room, I will probably never go back to a chapel..im an introvert and dont care to see any ward members in person.

The last time I went to the temple was right after my wife left the church 5 yrs ago, I did a session by myself and got the impression to dont come back without my wife. Yeah thats gonna take some time.

[Cruiserdude]

Seriously guys/gals if you have a problem with tithing then dont pay it! Simple!

If you have a problem with the temple then dont go! Heck dont even go to church if you dont like your bishop.

I did that for 5 years..no church, no tithing, no temple! I did and am doing a lot of soul searching and have come a long way, I am experiencing a change in heart and started back up paying tithing, church has come to me via zoom broadcast in my living room, I will probably never go back to a chapel..im an introvert and dont care to see any ward members in person.

The last time I went to the temple was right after my wife left the church, I did a session by myself and got the impression to dont come back without my wife. Yeah thats gonna take some time.

Sounds like we've had somewhat similar paths up to this point, hermano. The only true and lasting peace I've found is through the Savior. Babylon provided plenty of temporary cheap smiles to distract me from my reality. But that deep true joy has come only from seeking out our Master and feeling His love and His acceptance and turning away from Babylon and it's hosts as best as I can.
I'm happy you've found that hermano

[Robin Hood]

They already need it & tithes are MEANT for those in need, but Oaks said no, as they sit on BILLIONS of illegally hoarded donations.

...the church is not the personal bank account for the world, The church is not that uncle that will stop and do everything for your town/country/city/state because your own government is corrupt and greedy.

As Aprhys explained, you’ve got it backwards. Members are not the greedy leaders’ bank account. Paying money to dishonest men is NOT paying money to God.

• ”God has no need of your money, but the poor have. You give it to the poor, & God receives it.”

• ”Inasmuch as ye have done it into the least of these, ye have done it unto me.”

How many people - including members - suffer due to evil financial burdens the church has placed on them! Lds finances are not handled in Christ-like ways.
1) Lds leaders warped scripture to get more money (tithes are supposed to be based on increase not income).
2) They take from the poor by demanding based on income when the poor have no increase left.
3) They disobey the law of tithing (Deut 14:28-29 - which is not taught in curriculum about tithing) - which states that at least 1/3 of tithes are supposed to be given to the poor. See also JST Genesis 14:37-39.
4) Finances are kept secret except Oaks admitted no tithes go to the poor.
5) They use the temple to make money - charging for worthiness. This type of thing promoted Christ to express anger.

My guess is that not all church leaders agree with this evil, nevertheless, they all go along with it. And despite all the good they do, they will be held accountable for this.

We've locked horns on this issue a couple of times.
My question is why do you keep making the same erroneous point? Not all of them, obviously. I agree with a great deal of what you say.
But you continue to make the point about a third of tithing being for the poor. As you well know this is an OT law.
However, the Saints are not bound by this law, but are subject to the law of tithing revealed through Joseph in D&C 119, which makes no such provision. It is very clearly stated what tithing funds are to be used for.
Why do you continue to ignore this even though it has been pointed out to you several times?

[sushi_chef]

"disclaimer saying they can spend donations however they want."

the reason/origin of that has come from some kind of financial ties/connections/obligations to kuhn loeb(jacob schiff) company??

https://www.flickr.com/photos/45229913@N05/5301026935/

"Additionally, the LDS Church had borrowed extensively to finance a variety of infrastructural developments such as gristmills and after the 1893 financial crisis the LDS Church was unable to make timely payments on their loans. Wilford Woodruff, church president from 1889 to 1898, privately expressed doubt that the church would ever pay its debts.[11] Eventually the LDS Church obtained the backing of investment bank Kuhn, Loeb & Co. to issue bonds backed by the labor of Utah residents
"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finances_ ... day_Saints
kuhn loeb wilford woodruff
https://search.yahoo.co.jp/search?p=kuh ... f&ei=UTF-8

kuhn loeb
"Professor Carroll Quigley, Tragedy and Hope: A History of the World in Our Time (1966)

For the first time in its history, Western Civilization is in danger of being destroyed internally by a corrupt, criminal ruling cabal which is centered around the Rockefeller interests, which include elements from the Morgan, Brown, Rothschild, Du Pont, Harriman, Kuhn-Loeb, and other groupings as well. This junta took control of the political, financial, and cultural life of America in the first two decades of the twentieth century. ...
One American source gave Trotsky, Lenin and the other Communist leaders around twenty million dollars for the final triumph of Bolshevism in Russia. This was Jacob Schiff of Kuhn, Loeb and Company.
" https://www.latterdayconservative.com/a ... situation/

[BeHealthy94]

As Aprhys explained, you’ve got it backwards. Members are not the greedy leaders’ bank account. Paying money to dishonest men is NOT paying money to God.

• ”God has no need of your money, but the poor have. You give it to the poor, & God receives it.”

• ”Inasmuch as ye have done it into the least of these, ye have done it unto me.”

My guess is that not all church leaders agree with this evil, nevertheless, they all go along with it. And despite all the good they do, they will be held accountable for this.

The LDS church has a program were donations go directly to disaster relief and those in need. Here are four organizations that me and my kids donate to every quarter.

1. LDS Pilanthropies
(100% of donations go to the needy)

2. American Red Cross
(90% of donations go to the needy, 10% over head)

3. Unicef
(75% of donations go to the needy, 25% over head)

4. Muslim Aid
(75% of donations go to the needy, 25% over head)

My kids are such haters of the LDS church (They have been brainwashed by their mother) that they rather see 90% or 75% of their money go to the poor. Me on the other hand rather see 100% of my money go to the needy so I donate to LDS Pilanthropies.

[cab]

Tithing is not to help the poors.

DC 119
2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.

You can donate to the poors anyway but it is not a tithing.

And yet both Nephi and Moroni (the first and last authors of the Book of Mormon clearly said that if we care more about adorning our church buildings than the poor then we are in big trouble (see 2 Nephi 28:13 and Mormon 8:35-38).

We ought to ask ourselves, what is preached with much greater emphasis and frequency in the church - giving to the poor or paying tithing? And what does this say about us and where we’re at?

[Aprhys]

I stopped paying tithing 5 yrs ago for the same reasons mentioned in the article. I felt empowered and a huge burden off my back.

Started back up paying tithing two months ago because after 9 months of the pandemic seeing how many people are affected and suffering yet my household is maintaining our comforts...was a clear testament to me that the Lords blessings are with me.

My mother in law whom passed last year was single living on her own for over 15 years. She has always received living assistance and food from her ward.
When she passed away last year I had a moment to reflect and felt ashamed that me and my wife (her daughter) barely did anything to help her yet the ward was more of a family to her then us.

You should feel ashamed.

[Shaffer89]

When the world needs the Church and their money, I don't want to hear any of the Tithing deniers to whine for help

Not to be too critical here, but that seems to me to be missing the point of tithing.
Are you saying if someone doesn't pay tithing the way you do they should not be entitled to support/assistance from tithing or am I misinterpreting something?

[Shaffer89]

I stopped paying tithing 5 yrs ago for the same reasons mentioned in the article. I felt empowered and a huge burden off my back.

Started back up paying tithing two months ago because after 9 months of the pandemic seeing how many people are affected and suffering yet my household is maintaining our comforts...was a clear testament to me that the Lords blessings are with me.

My mother in law whom passed last year was single living on her own for over 15 years. She has always received living assistance and food from her ward.
When she passed away last year I had a moment to reflect and felt ashamed that me and my wife (her daughter) barely did anything to help her yet the ward was more of a family to her then us.

You should feel ashamed.

Do you mean to say that you would feel ashamed if you stopped paying tithing?
I think it is a dangerous notion to tell someone how they should feel.
I may not agree with the logic but I certainly don't think they should feel ashamed or bad about their decision.

[Thinker]

We've locked horns on this issue a couple of times.
My question is why do you keep making the same erroneous point? Not all of them, obviously. I agree with a great deal of what you say.
But you continue to make the point about a third of tithing being for the poor. As you well know this is an OT law.
However, the Saints are not bound by this law, but are subject to the law of tithing revealed through Joseph in D&C 119, which makes no such provision. It is very clearly stated what tithing funds are to be used for.
Why do you continue to ignore this even though it has been pointed out to you several times?

And why, Dear RobinHood, do you keep joining me on the dance floor only to criticize my dancing?

I’ll REPEAT this part of the dance which Joseph Smith taught (I suggest you learn it, as it seems you missed it despite my repetition )...

JST Genesis 14:38-39
“God had appointed to receive tithes FOR THE POOR. 39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him MORE THAN THAT WHICH HE HAD NEED.”

One of Joseph Smith’s other dances, I’d rather skip:

[Thinker]

As Aprhys explained, you’ve got it backwards. Members are not the greedy leaders’ bank account. Paying money to dishonest men is NOT paying money to God.

• ”God has no need of your money, but the poor have. You give it to the poor, & God receives it.”

• ”Inasmuch as ye have done it into the least of these, ye have done it unto me.”

My guess is that not all church leaders agree with this evil, nevertheless, they all go along with it. And despite all the good they do, they will be held accountable for this.

The LDS church has a program were donations go directly to disaster relief and those in need. Here are four organizations that me and my kids donate to every quarter.

1. LDS Pilanthropies
(100% of donations go to the needy)

2. American Red Cross
(90% of donations go to the needy, 10% over head)

3. Unicef
(75% of donations go to the needy, 25% over head)

4. Muslim Aid
(75% of donations go to the needy, 25% over head)

My kids are such haters of the LDS church (They have been brainwashed by their mother) that they rather see 90% or 75% of their money go to the poor. Me on the other hand rather see 100% of my money go to the needy so I donate to LDS Pilanthropies.

Thanks for sharing alternatives.
I looked but couldn’t find financial statements of Lds philanthropies. Will you share it if you have it? In fact, I even went to the church office building and asked for financial statements but was denied - said they don’t share that. It’s secret.

Hate to burst your bubble but, have you read the fine print on lds church donation slips? Even if you designate Humanitarian (under which lds philanthropies falls), the church says they can use donated money however they want. That means while you’re hoping you’re money will help those in need, they could use it for another extravagant shopping mall (a 3rd one?), pharmaceutical stocks or other ritzy corporate endeavors.

[Robin Hood]

We've locked horns on this issue a couple of times.
My question is why do you keep making the same erroneous point? Not all of them, obviously. I agree with a great deal of what you say.
But you continue to make the point about a third of tithing being for the poor. As you well know this is an OT law.
However, the Saints are not bound by this law, but are subject to the law of tithing revealed through Joseph in D&C 119, which makes no such provision. It is very clearly stated what tithing funds are to be used for.
Why do you continue to ignore this even though it has been pointed out to you several times?

And why, Dear RobinHood, do you keep joining me on the dance floor only to criticize my dancing?

I’ll REPEAT this part of the dance which Joseph Smith taught (I suggest you learn it, as it seems you missed it despite my repetition )...

JST Genesis 14:38-39
“God had appointed to receive tithes FOR THE POOR. 39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him MORE THAN THAT WHICH HE HAD NEED.”

One of Joseph Smith’s other dances, I’d rather skip:

But Thinker, the music finished a while ago.
The dance is over.

[Luke]

You should start your own church and use tithing in a better way then you feel the LDS church can do. You know there are over 41,000 christian denominations all started because one person wanted to do it his/her own way. You have the freedom to do the same.

Honestly this is one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard. Do you really think this?

He made a valid criticism. Your response is to tell him to get out. Sounds like you just want to sweep it under the rug and put your fingers in your ears