"The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

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Luke
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"The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by Luke »

Everyone should read this book

I always found it strange that despite the mention of Priesthood throughout all the Book of Mormon, it isn't mentioned in the Book of Ether. Then I discovered things like this:
Olmec Monoliths.jpg
Olmec Monoliths.jpg (81.28 KiB) Viewed 2266 times
So I have believed for a while now that the Jaredites were black. Well I got the book yesterday and I read all of it (it's only short), and am now convinced that the Jaredites were black

Highly recommend it

So next time someone claims "the Priesthood ban was/is racist"... just tell them to look at what the Lord blessed the Jaredites with. They were in the same boat as Pharaoh:
  • Abraham 1

    26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.

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Luke
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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by Luke »

Parley P. Pratt apparently thought that the Jaredites were descended from Ham...
In his letter, Parley identified the engravings as “Egyptian,” containing a genealogy of a descendant of the Jaredites back to Ham and Noah. He also notes that the characters on the Kinderhook plates were comparable to the characters on the Egyptian papyri.

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Alexander
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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by Alexander »

Where in the scriptures does it say the seed of Ham was cursed with black skin?

If the Jaredites were black, were they cursed as to the priesthood? How did the brother of Jared enter the presence of God then?

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Luke
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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by Luke »

Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 10:36 am Where in the scriptures does it say the seed of Ham was cursed with black skin?
  • Moses 7

    8 For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.
    22 And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.
  • Abraham 1

    21 Now this king of Egypt was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth.
    22 From this descent sprang all the Egyptians, and thus the blood of the Canaanites was preserved in the land.
    23 The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden;
    24 When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.
The Canaanites were black, having the curse, and the Egyptians were descendants of Ham, who was a descendant of Canaan, and thus "preserved the curse"
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 10:36 am If the Jaredites were black, were they cursed as to the priesthood?
Yes, there is never a mention of priesthood in the Book of Ether, despite it being mentioned constantly elsewhere in the Book of Mormon
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 10:36 am How did the brother of Jared enter the presence of God then?
Question: Did Joseph Smith have any Priesthood when He saw the Father and the Son in 1820?
Answer: No

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Robin Hood
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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by Robin Hood »

Wayne May does a short presentation on this issue and demonstrates that the Jaredites being black is much more likely than not.
He also says they sailed to America from England.

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nightlight
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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by nightlight »

Luke wrote: December 26th, 2020, 9:41 am Everyone should read this book

I always found it strange that despite the mention of Priesthood throughout all the Book of Mormon, it isn't mentioned in the Book of Ether. Then I discovered things like this:

Olmec Monoliths.jpg

So I have believed for a while now that the Jaredites were black. Well I got the book yesterday and I read all of it (it's only short), and am now convinced that the Jaredites were black

Highly recommend it

So next time someone claims "the Priesthood ban was/is racist"... just tell them to look at what the Lord blessed the Jaredites with. They were in the same boat as Pharaoh:
  • Abraham 1

    26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.
Are you claiming you have more " Priesthood" than the Brother of Jared & Ether ?

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Luke
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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by Luke »

nightlight wrote: December 26th, 2020, 11:16 am
Luke wrote: December 26th, 2020, 9:41 am Everyone should read this book

I always found it strange that despite the mention of Priesthood throughout all the Book of Mormon, it isn't mentioned in the Book of Ether. Then I discovered things like this:

Olmec Monoliths.jpg

So I have believed for a while now that the Jaredites were black. Well I got the book yesterday and I read all of it (it's only short), and am now convinced that the Jaredites were black

Highly recommend it

So next time someone claims "the Priesthood ban was/is racist"... just tell them to look at what the Lord blessed the Jaredites with. They were in the same boat as Pharaoh:
  • Abraham 1

    26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.
Are you claiming you have more " Priesthood" than the Brother of Jared & Ether ?
If the Jaredites indeed are black, then yes, I suppose so

But do I have more knowledge of and relationship with God than those men? No. They outpace us all by lightyears

I know the trap you're trying to set :D

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Cruiserdude
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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by Cruiserdude »

Robin Hood wrote: December 26th, 2020, 11:14 am Wayne May does a short presentation on this issue and demonstrates that the Jaredites being black is much more likely than not.
He also says they sailed to America from England.

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nightlight
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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by nightlight »

Luke wrote: December 26th, 2020, 11:24 am
nightlight wrote: December 26th, 2020, 11:16 am
Luke wrote: December 26th, 2020, 9:41 am Everyone should read this book

I always found it strange that despite the mention of Priesthood throughout all the Book of Mormon, it isn't mentioned in the Book of Ether. Then I discovered things like this:

Olmec Monoliths.jpg

So I have believed for a while now that the Jaredites were black. Well I got the book yesterday and I read all of it (it's only short), and am now convinced that the Jaredites were black

Highly recommend it

So next time someone claims "the Priesthood ban was/is racist"... just tell them to look at what the Lord blessed the Jaredites with. They were in the same boat as Pharaoh:
  • Abraham 1

    26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.
Are you claiming you have more " Priesthood" than the Brother of Jared & Ether ?
If the Jaredites indeed are black, then yes, I suppose so

But do I have more knowledge of and relationship with God than those men? No. They outpace us all by lightyears

I know the trap you're trying to set :D
Ether was a prophet of jesus christ....

What good is your "Priesthood" when a man without it is a prophet, has more relationship and knowledge of God?

Lol who can claim a man has less than himself when said man walk , talks, and prophesies with Jesus Christ?

You don't have more "Priesthood" than Ether, my guy. Your skin color means nothing. What comes out of your mouth means everything

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Luke
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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by Luke »

nightlight wrote: December 26th, 2020, 11:49 am
Luke wrote: December 26th, 2020, 11:24 am
nightlight wrote: December 26th, 2020, 11:16 am
Luke wrote: December 26th, 2020, 9:41 am Everyone should read this book

I always found it strange that despite the mention of Priesthood throughout all the Book of Mormon, it isn't mentioned in the Book of Ether. Then I discovered things like this:

Olmec Monoliths.jpg

So I have believed for a while now that the Jaredites were black. Well I got the book yesterday and I read all of it (it's only short), and am now convinced that the Jaredites were black

Highly recommend it

So next time someone claims "the Priesthood ban was/is racist"... just tell them to look at what the Lord blessed the Jaredites with. They were in the same boat as Pharaoh:
  • Abraham 1

    26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.
Are you claiming you have more " Priesthood" than the Brother of Jared & Ether ?
If the Jaredites indeed are black, then yes, I suppose so

But do I have more knowledge of and relationship with God than those men? No. They outpace us all by lightyears

I know the trap you're trying to set :D
Ether was a prophet of jesus christ....

What good is your "Priesthood" when a man without it is a prophet, has more relationship and knowledge of God?

Lol who can claim a man has less than himself when said man walk , talks, and prophesies with Jesus Christ?

You don't have more "Priesthood" than Ether, my guy. Your skin color means nothing. What comes out of your mouth means everything
As usual my point goes over your head... probably because you keep arguing against what you think I'm saying

Again, you might want to read this...
  • Abraham 1

    26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.
You can be blessed immensely and not have Priesthood

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Alexander
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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by Alexander »

Luke wrote: December 26th, 2020, 10:41 am
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 10:36 am Where in the scriptures does it say the seed of Ham was cursed with black skin?
  • Moses 7

    8 For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.
    22 And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.
  • Abraham 1

    21 Now this king of Egypt was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth.
    22 From this descent sprang all the Egyptians, and thus the blood of the Canaanites was preserved in the land.
    23 The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden;
    24 When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.
The Canaanites were black, having the curse, and the Egyptians were descendants of Ham, who was a descendant of Canaan, and thus "preserved the curse"
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 10:36 am If the Jaredites were black, were they cursed as to the priesthood?
Yes, there is never a mention of priesthood in the Book of Ether, despite it being mentioned constantly elsewhere in the Book of Mormon
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 10:36 am How did the brother of Jared enter the presence of God then?
Question: Did Joseph Smith have any Priesthood when He saw the Father and the Son in 1820?
Answer: No
That doesn't even make sense that the Jaredites were the offspring of Ham. Ham's seed was cursed and mixed with the Nephilim and Anakites. Jared and his family were of pure Adamic line.

The faulty logic presented in the idea that descendants of cain had black skin.
-God cursed Cain for killing Abel and placed a mark on him. The assumption or implication of this mark was black/dark colored skin, even though the scriptures do not say this
-It says Cain’s descendants were black. The guess is that it means black/dark colored skin
-Blackness came upon the Canaanites. The supposition being that this blackness was black/dark colored skin
-Pharaoh, descended from Ham and his wife, Egyptus, had Canaanite blood. The assumption is that these descendants were cursed with black skin, assuming again the canaanites were descendants of cain
-It says Pharaoh couldn't receive the priesthood. The presumption again is that this is because he was black skinned, assuming he was a descendant of cain
-Thus the conclusion is that black people are cursed, and cannot have the priesthood

The scriptures do not say the descendants of cain survived the flood. Neither do they say the mark of cain was black skin. So this is heavily entrenched in conjecture, especially in the connection of the curse that Noah placed on Canaan to the curse that was placed on Cain for killing Abel. They are two separate and distinct curses.

Curse is another word for judgment of God. Ham's posterity was cursed (damned, devoted to destruction, abominable). Priesthood is relationship with God. Ham's seed was cursed in that they could not enter the presence of God (his seed continued and birthed the sons of perdition who suffer the second death, which is to be cut off from God). They were black or destitute of light, just like the seed of Cain. The canaanites were evil because they mingled with the Nephilim or Watchers, the race of Giants and sons of perdition. They participated in blood oaths and sacrifices, cannibalism, and sexual deviancy. They were the seed of Adam mixed with the seed of men, and it allowed sons of perdition to be born into these bodies.

The idea that blacks were the descendants of Ham (which was originally a Southern Protestant doctrine, used to justify slavery, that predates Mormonism) was ignorant of both geography and history. Ham and his descendants lived in Egypt and modern-day Palestine, nowhere near where the majority of black African slaves who were the ancestors of most modern black Americans came from. Geneologically there is no connection between them at all, so it is not a valid rationale for why the priesthood ban was put in place.

It is a spiritual connotation stating they were destitute of light, dark in nature, and evil; abominable.

1828 Webster’s dictionary:
BLACK'NESS, noun The quality of being black; black color; darkness; atrociousness or enormity in wickedness.

BLACK, adjective
1. Of the color of night; destitute of light; dark.
2. Darkened by clouds; as the heavens black with clouds.
3. Sullen; having a cloudy look or countenance.
4. Atrociously wicked; horrible; as a black deed or crime.
5. Dismal; mournful; calamitous.

Now as to if the Brother of Jared had priesthood, let's take a look. The record given in the Book of Mormon destroys this idea that the Jaredites are black and cursed from priesthood.

Ether 1
38 And it came to pass that Jared spake again unto his brother, saying: Go and inquire of the Lord whether he will drive us out of the land, and if he will drive us out of the land, cry unto him whither we shall go. And who knoweth but the Lord will carry us forth into a land which is choice above all the earth? And if it so be, let us be faithful unto the Lord, that we may receive it for our inheritance.

The land of Inheritance is given unto the Lord's people. Why would the Lord give it to "cursed blacks"?

39 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord according to that which had been spoken by the mouth of Jared.
40 And it came to pass that the Lord did hear the brother of Jared, and had compassion upon him, and said unto him:

The brother of Jared is crying unto the Lord, and the Lord is answering by revelation. Priesthood is a relationship with God. How would the brother of Jared be able to communicate and counsel with the Lord if he did not have a relationship with him?

43 And there will I bless thee and thy seed, and raise up unto me of thy seed, and of the seed of thy brother, and they who shall go with thee, a great nation. And there shall be none greater than the nation which I will raise up unto me of thy seed, upon all the face of the earth. And thus I will do unto thee because this long time ye have cried unto me.

The seed of Jared was of pure Adamic line.

Ether 2
7 And the Lord would not suffer that they should stop beyond the sea in the wilderness, but he would that they should come forth even unto the land of promise, which was choice above all other lands, which the Lord God had preserved for a righteous people.
8 And he had sworn in his wrath unto the brother of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them.

It says it is for a righteous people. The Jaredites are returning to the Holy Land of their fathers, Adam and Enoch.

12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.
13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

The brother of Jared was redeemed (saved) and ascended to the throne into the presence of God. He was in his presence. This is eternal life. You're telling me the Brother of Jared didn't have relationship with God?

19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.
20 Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him.

He had the key of knowledge of God, which is priesthood. HE KNEW GOD.

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Alexander
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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by Alexander »

Ether 7
23 And also in the reign of Shule there came prophets among the people, who were sent from the Lord, prophesying that the wickedness and idolatry of the people was bringing a curse upon the land, and they should be destroyed if they did not repent.
24 And it came to pass that the people did revile against the prophets, and did mock them. And it came to pass that king Shule did execute judgment against all those who did revile against the prophets.

Now why would there be prophets if they were cursed according to the priesthood?

That's weird. Why would the prophets be preaching repentance? I thought Enoch didn't preach repentance to the blacks.

Moses 7
12 And it came to pass that Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were the people of Canaan, to repent;

Or maybe it was because the people of Canaan were so corrupted and evil, the message of turning to the Lord wouldn't do them any good, because they were so abominable and detested, and it has nothing to do with skin color?

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Robin Hood
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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by Robin Hood »

Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:47 pm Ether 7
23 And also in the reign of Shule there came prophets among the people, who were sent from the Lord, prophesying that the wickedness and idolatry of the people was bringing a curse upon the land, and they should be destroyed if they did not repent.
24 And it came to pass that the people did revile against the prophets, and did mock them. And it came to pass that king Shule did execute judgment against all those who did revile against the prophets.

Now why would there be prophets if they were cursed according to the priesthood?

That's weird. Why would the prophets be preaching repentance? I thought Enoch didn't preach repentance to the blacks.

Moses 7
12 And it came to pass that Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were the people of Canaan, to repent;

Or maybe it was because the people of Canaan were so corrupted and evil, the message of turning to the Lord wouldn't do them any good, because they were so abominable and detested.

Hmmm...
"Prophet" is not an office of the priesthood.

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Alexander
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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by Alexander »

Robin Hood wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:49 pm
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:47 pm Ether 7
23 And also in the reign of Shule there came prophets among the people, who were sent from the Lord, prophesying that the wickedness and idolatry of the people was bringing a curse upon the land, and they should be destroyed if they did not repent.
24 And it came to pass that the people did revile against the prophets, and did mock them. And it came to pass that king Shule did execute judgment against all those who did revile against the prophets.

Now why would there be prophets if they were cursed according to the priesthood?

That's weird. Why would the prophets be preaching repentance? I thought Enoch didn't preach repentance to the blacks.

Moses 7
12 And it came to pass that Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were the people of Canaan, to repent;

Or maybe it was because the people of Canaan were so corrupted and evil, the message of turning to the Lord wouldn't do them any good, because they were so abominable and detested.

Hmmm...
"Prophet" is not an office of the priesthood.
To have the spirit/gift of prophecy requires relationship with God, which is "priesthood". Offices of the priesthood are appendages. Priesthood isn't the offices. Priesthood is the relationship.

The rights are directly tied to the powers of heaven.
Last edited by Alexander on December 26th, 2020, 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Robin Hood
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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by Robin Hood »

Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:50 pm
Robin Hood wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:49 pm
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:47 pm Ether 7
23 And also in the reign of Shule there came prophets among the people, who were sent from the Lord, prophesying that the wickedness and idolatry of the people was bringing a curse upon the land, and they should be destroyed if they did not repent.
24 And it came to pass that the people did revile against the prophets, and did mock them. And it came to pass that king Shule did execute judgment against all those who did revile against the prophets.

Now why would there be prophets if they were cursed according to the priesthood?

That's weird. Why would the prophets be preaching repentance? I thought Enoch didn't preach repentance to the blacks.

Moses 7
12 And it came to pass that Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were the people of Canaan, to repent;

Or maybe it was because the people of Canaan were so corrupted and evil, the message of turning to the Lord wouldn't do them any good, because they were so abominable and detested.

Hmmm...
"Prophet" is not an office of the priesthood.
To have the spirit/gift of prophecy requires relationship with God, which is "priesthood".
So the first vision was nothing to do with a relationship with God?

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Luke
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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by Luke »

Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm That doesn't even make sense that the Jaredites were the offspring of Ham. Ham's seed was cursed and mixed with the Nephilim and Anakites. Jared and his family were of pure Adamic line.
Please prove this
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm The faulty logic presented in the idea that descendants of cain had black skin.
-God cursed Cain for killing Abel and placed a mark on him. The assumption or implication of this mark was black/dark colored skin, even though the scriptures do not say this
-It says Cain’s descendants were black. The guess is that it means black/dark colored skin
-Blackness came upon the Canaanites. The supposition being that this blackness was black/dark colored skin
-Pharaoh, descended from Ham and his wife, Egyptus, had Canaanite blood. The assumption is that these descendants were cursed with black skin, assuming again the canaanites were descendants of cain
-It says Pharaoh couldn't receive the priesthood. The presumption again is that this is because he was black skinned, assuming he was a descendant of cain
-Thus the conclusion is that black people are cursed, and cannot have the priesthood
No it isn't any supposition, it's based off the fact that Joseph Smith said that the blacks were the seed of Cain, Canaan, Ham and the fact that the Scriptures say that they were black
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm The scriptures do not say the descendants of cain survived the flood. Neither do they say the mark of cain was black skin. So this is heavily entrenched in conjecture, especially in the connection of the curse that Noah placed on Canaan to the curse that was placed on Cain for killing Abel. They are two separate and distinct curses.
Once again this is simply untrue and we don't even need JS words to know that
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm Curse is another word for judgment of God. Ham's posterity was cursed (damned, devoted to destruction, abominable).
Yes and the sign of the curse was black skin
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm Priesthood is relationship with God.
Disagree, as you have to ignore hundreds of Scriptures and quotes for this to be so. However they are very closely linked
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm Ham's seed was cursed in that they could not enter the presence of God
No, it was pertaining to the Priesthood, as the Book of Abraham plainly says
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm (his seed continued and birthed the sons of perdition who suffer the second death, which is to be cut off from God). They were black or destitute of light, just like the seed of Cain. The canaanites were evil because they mingled with the Nephilim or Watchers, the race of Giants and sons of perdition. They participated in blood oaths and sacrifices, cannibalism, and sexual deviancy. They were the seed of Adam mixed with the seed of men, and it allowed sons of perdition to be born into these bodies.
Yes I agree with this
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm The idea that blacks were the descendants of Ham (which was originally a Southern Protestant doctrine, used to justify slavery, that predates Mormonism) was ignorant of both geography and history. Ham and his descendants lived in Egypt and modern-day Palestine, nowhere near where the majority of black African slaves who were the ancestors of most modern black Americans came from. Geneologically there is no connection between them at all, so it is not a valid rationale for why the priesthood ban was put in place.
Then why did Joseph Smith teach this "false, racist" doctrine?
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm It is a spiritual connotation stating they were destitute of light, dark in nature, and evil; abominable.

1828 Webster’s dictionary:
BLACK'NESS, noun The quality of being black; black color; darkness; atrociousness or enormity in wickedness.

BLACK, adjective
1. Of the color of night; destitute of light; dark.
2. Darkened by clouds; as the heavens black with clouds.
3. Sullen; having a cloudy look or countenance.
4. Atrociously wicked; horrible; as a black deed or crime.
5. Dismal; mournful; calamitous.
Sorry, but you are desperately clutching at straws. They were cursed, they had black skin as a mark. Deal with it
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm Now as to if the Brother of Jared had priesthood, let's take a look.

Ether 1
38 And it came to pass that Jared spake again unto his brother, saying: Go and inquire of the Lord whether he will drive us out of the land, and if he will drive us out of the land, cry unto him whither we shall go. And who knoweth but the Lord will carry us forth into a land which is choice above all the earth? And if it so be, let us be faithful unto the Lord, that we may receive it for our inheritance.

The land of Inheritance is given unto the Lord's people. Why would the Lord give it to "cursed blacks"?
The same reason for this:
  • Mark 16

    17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Does it say that signs follow those with Priesthood? No, it says signs follow those who believe. Or in other words, faith

Which is why Jared says "let us be faithful unto the Lord, that we may receive it for our inheritance."

The condition upon receiving the blessing was faith, not Priesthood. To somehow read it as being about Priesthood is simply wrong
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm 39 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord according to that which had been spoken by the mouth of Jared.
40 And it came to pass that the Lord did hear the brother of Jared, and had compassion upon him, and said unto him:

The brother of Jared is crying unto the Lord, and the Lord is answering by revelation. Priesthood is a relationship with God. How would the brother of Jared be able to communicate and counsel with the Lord if he did not have a relationship with him?
Priesthood is more than just relationship with God, but again these are closely linked

Here's how the brother of Jared communicated with the Lord:
  • Moroni 7

    16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
So yeah, nothing to do with whether they did or didn't have the Priesthood
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm 43 And there will I bless thee and thy seed, and raise up unto me of thy seed, and of the seed of thy brother, and they who shall go with thee, a great nation. And there shall be none greater than the nation which I will raise up unto me of thy seed, upon all the face of the earth. And thus I will do unto thee because this long time ye have cried unto me.

The seed of Jared was of pure Adamic line.
Yeah, that Scripture doesn't say anything about being of the pure Adamic line. Again, wild assumptions being made on your part in order for you to not have to accept the curse of Cain doctrine
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm Ether 2
7 And the Lord would not suffer that they should stop beyond the sea in the wilderness, but he would that they should come forth even unto the land of promise, which was choice above all other lands, which the Lord God had preserved for a righteous people.
8 And he had sworn in his wrath unto the brother of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them.

It says it is for a righteous people. The Jaredites are returning to the Holy Land of their fathers, Adam and Enoch.
Every Scripture you've quoted hasn't said anything about them having Priesthood. Is the Priesthood only for righteous people? The answer is obviously no, so yet again your argument fails
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm 12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.
13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

The brother of Jared was redeemed (saved) and ascended to the throne into the presence of God. He was in his presence. This is eternal life. You're telling me the Brother of Jared didn't have relationship with God?
No one said he didn't have relationship with God. I said if he was indeed black, he didn't have Priesthood. The two are not one and the same
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm 19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.
20 Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him.

He had the key of knowledge of God, which is priesthood. HE KNEW GOD.
Seeing God does not equal Priesthood. Joseph did not have the Priesthood in 1820

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Alexander
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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by Alexander »

Robin Hood wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:52 pm
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:50 pm
Robin Hood wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:49 pm
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:47 pm Ether 7
23 And also in the reign of Shule there came prophets among the people, who were sent from the Lord, prophesying that the wickedness and idolatry of the people was bringing a curse upon the land, and they should be destroyed if they did not repent.
24 And it came to pass that the people did revile against the prophets, and did mock them. And it came to pass that king Shule did execute judgment against all those who did revile against the prophets.

Now why would there be prophets if they were cursed according to the priesthood?

That's weird. Why would the prophets be preaching repentance? I thought Enoch didn't preach repentance to the blacks.

Moses 7
12 And it came to pass that Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were the people of Canaan, to repent;

Or maybe it was because the people of Canaan were so corrupted and evil, the message of turning to the Lord wouldn't do them any good, because they were so abominable and detested.

Hmmm...
"Prophet" is not an office of the priesthood.
To have the spirit/gift of prophecy requires relationship with God, which is "priesthood".
So the first vision was nothing to do with a relationship with God?
The first vision of Joseph was a Second Comforter vision. The first vision was not an ascension (it wasn't full experience of coming to the throne). It was a washing in the pillar of fire, giving a visitation of God; transfiguration.

Joseph's seeking for the divine kickstarted him on the path of ascension.

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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by NewEliza »

The jaredites where the descendants of shem I thought
Last edited by NewEliza on December 26th, 2020, 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by Robin Hood »

Alexander, you're going to great lengths to try to make a square peg fit in a round hole.
There is not one mention of priesthood or authority in the Jaredite record. In fact, it's conspicuous by its absence.
And in an attempt to give that square peg a mighty shove, you are having to make and stretch significant assumptions.

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Alexander
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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by Alexander »

Luke wrote: December 26th, 2020, 1:04 pm
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm That doesn't even make sense that the Jaredites were the offspring of Ham. Ham's seed was cursed and mixed with the Nephilim and Anakites. Jared and his family were of pure Adamic line.
Please prove this
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm The faulty logic presented in the idea that descendants of cain had black skin.
-God cursed Cain for killing Abel and placed a mark on him. The assumption or implication of this mark was black/dark colored skin, even though the scriptures do not say this
-It says Cain’s descendants were black. The guess is that it means black/dark colored skin
-Blackness came upon the Canaanites. The supposition being that this blackness was black/dark colored skin
-Pharaoh, descended from Ham and his wife, Egyptus, had Canaanite blood. The assumption is that these descendants were cursed with black skin, assuming again the canaanites were descendants of cain
-It says Pharaoh couldn't receive the priesthood. The presumption again is that this is because he was black skinned, assuming he was a descendant of cain
-Thus the conclusion is that black people are cursed, and cannot have the priesthood
No it isn't any supposition, it's based off the fact that Joseph Smith said that the blacks were the seed of Cain, Canaan, Ham and the fact that the Scriptures say that they were black

It's conjecture. You're retrofitting something that isn't there.

You guys' crutching on Joseph for making blacks out to be cursed of the priesthood is ridiculous considering there were black men ordained under Joseph.

Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm The scriptures do not say the descendants of cain survived the flood. Neither do they say the mark of cain was black skin. So this is heavily entrenched in conjecture, especially in the connection of the curse that Noah placed on Canaan to the curse that was placed on Cain for killing Abel. They are two separate and distinct curses.
Once again this is simply untrue and we don't even need JS words to know that

Two separate curses. Neither of them say the curse was black skin. The scriptures do not say the descendants of cain survived the flood.

Your argument is flawed.

Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm Curse is another word for judgment of God. Ham's posterity was cursed (damned, devoted to destruction, abominable).
Yes and the sign of the curse was black skin

Again, show me where it says the sign of the curse was black skin.
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm Priesthood is relationship with God.
Disagree, as you have to ignore hundreds of Scriptures and quotes for this to be so. However they are very closely linked

The rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven. This is how acting in the name of God by his power works. You have to have a connection of God, not using his power for your own benefit, but closely aligned with the will of God.
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm Ham's seed was cursed in that they could not enter the presence of God
No, it was pertaining to the Priesthood, as the Book of Abraham plainly says
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm (his seed continued and birthed the sons of perdition who suffer the second death, which is to be cut off from God). They were black or destitute of light, just like the seed of Cain. The canaanites were evil because they mingled with the Nephilim or Watchers, the race of Giants and sons of perdition. They participated in blood oaths and sacrifices, cannibalism, and sexual deviancy. They were the seed of Adam mixed with the seed of men, and it allowed sons of perdition to be born into these bodies.
Yes I agree with this

If you agreed with this, you would agree with my previous sentence.
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm The idea that blacks were the descendants of Ham (which was originally a Southern Protestant doctrine, used to justify slavery, that predates Mormonism) was ignorant of both geography and history. Ham and his descendants lived in Egypt and modern-day Palestine, nowhere near where the majority of black African slaves who were the ancestors of most modern black Americans came from. Geneologically there is no connection between them at all, so it is not a valid rationale for why the priesthood ban was put in place.
Then why did Joseph Smith teach this "false, racist" doctrine?

Because the traditions of men are a plague all must overcome. Joseph wasn't perfect.
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm It is a spiritual connotation stating they were destitute of light, dark in nature, and evil; abominable.

1828 Webster’s dictionary:
BLACK'NESS, noun The quality of being black; black color; darkness; atrociousness or enormity in wickedness.

BLACK, adjective
1. Of the color of night; destitute of light; dark.
2. Darkened by clouds; as the heavens black with clouds.
3. Sullen; having a cloudy look or countenance.
4. Atrociously wicked; horrible; as a black deed or crime.
5. Dismal; mournful; calamitous.
Sorry, but you are desperately clutching at straws. They were cursed, they had black skin as a mark. Deal with it

I'm Luke. I deny the contextualized spiritual connotation the word black has in this instance, and the 1830 definition of black. I then tell people to suck it up and believe that black people can't have priesthood based on conjecture, lack of unoquivocal text saying the mark/curse of cain was black skin, and racist ideologies invented to justify slavery, even though the scriptures specifically say God is no respecter of persons.
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm Now as to if the Brother of Jared had priesthood, let's take a look.

Ether 1
38 And it came to pass that Jared spake again unto his brother, saying: Go and inquire of the Lord whether he will drive us out of the land, and if he will drive us out of the land, cry unto him whither we shall go. And who knoweth but the Lord will carry us forth into a land which is choice above all the earth? And if it so be, let us be faithful unto the Lord, that we may receive it for our inheritance.

The land of Inheritance is given unto the Lord's people. Why would the Lord give it to "cursed blacks"?
The same reason for this:
  • Mark 16

    17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Does it say that signs follow those with Priesthood? No, it says signs follow those who believe. Or in other words, faith

Which is why Jared says "let us be faithful unto the Lord, that we may receive it for our inheritance."

The condition upon receiving the blessing was faith, not Priesthood. To somehow read it as being about Priesthood is simply wrong

Faith is the key which opens the blessings of heaven. Priesthood is the power of the Lord in action. The gifts of the spirit are priesthood. It is how the servants (priests and priestesses) of God work in the kingdom.
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm 39 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord according to that which had been spoken by the mouth of Jared.
40 And it came to pass that the Lord did hear the brother of Jared, and had compassion upon him, and said unto him:

The brother of Jared is crying unto the Lord, and the Lord is answering by revelation. Priesthood is a relationship with God. How would the brother of Jared be able to communicate and counsel with the Lord if he did not have a relationship with him?
Priesthood is more than just relationship with God, but again these are closely linked

Here's how the brother of Jared communicated with the Lord:
  • Moroni 7

    16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
So yeah, nothing to do with whether they did or didn't have the Priesthood

Everything which is good which invites us to believe in Christ is sent by the power and gifts of God. This is exactly what priesthood is. The power of God is made manifest in our lives as we seek his will. The more we act in faith, hope, and charity, the deeper love we have for God and closer relationship we have with him.
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm 43 And there will I bless thee and thy seed, and raise up unto me of thy seed, and of the seed of thy brother, and they who shall go with thee, a great nation. And there shall be none greater than the nation which I will raise up unto me of thy seed, upon all the face of the earth. And thus I will do unto thee because this long time ye have cried unto me.

The seed of Jared was of pure Adamic line.
Yeah, that Scripture doesn't say anything about being of the pure Adamic line. Again, wild assumptions being made on your part in order for you to not have to accept the curse of Cain doctrine

The word that is used here is "bless" or "blessed". Blessed means to be anointed and extolled. The beatitudes are a pattern to become the Lord's servants. Anointed with the baptism of fire and Holy Ghost; which is to receive the endowment. Also those blessed/anointed servants of God. This is accomplished by ascending through the beatitudes, which are the blueprint for making a servant of Jesus.

This is what priesthood is; becoming the servants of God and exercising the gifts of God.

At this time in the world, the Lord's covenant people were being born into the family of Adam specifically. It wasn't until the time of the gentiles that the covenant was opened unto others.

This would mean the Jaredites, if they are to be blessed, would need to be of Adamic line. It says right there in this verse that the nation raised up by this people would be above all nations. The lord is establishing his covenant amongst his people here. Hence their journeying to the Land of Covenant/Promise, given only to the Lord's people. It was the original land of their forefathers, even Adam.


Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm Ether 2
7 And the Lord would not suffer that they should stop beyond the sea in the wilderness, but he would that they should come forth even unto the land of promise, which was choice above all other lands, which the Lord God had preserved for a righteous people.
8 And he had sworn in his wrath unto the brother of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them.

It says it is for a righteous people. The Jaredites are returning to the Holy Land of their fathers, Adam and Enoch.
Every Scripture you've quoted hasn't said anything about them having Priesthood. Is the Priesthood only for righteous people? The answer is obviously no, so yet again your argument fails

Priesthood is only for righteous people yes.

D&C 121
36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm 12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.
13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

The brother of Jared was redeemed (saved) and ascended to the throne into the presence of God. He was in his presence. This is eternal life. You're telling me the Brother of Jared didn't have relationship with God?
No one said he didn't have relationship with God. I said if he was indeed black, he didn't have Priesthood. The two are not one and the same
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm 19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.
20 Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him.

He had the key of knowledge of God, which is priesthood. HE KNEW GOD.
Seeing God does not equal Priesthood. Joseph did not have the Priesthood in 1820

Joseph's first vision wasn't an ascension. The brother of Jared's was. It literally says the brother of Jared was redeemed (saved; received the baptism of fire and Holy Ghost). This is how one is able to come into the presence of God, by the gift of the Holy Ghost. It wasn't the fact that he saw God. It was the fact that his relationship with the Lord was pure and so he was given the gift of Knowledge of God, which is eternal Life. His calling and election was made sure.
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Luke
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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by Luke »

Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 1:55 pm
Luke wrote: December 26th, 2020, 1:04 pm
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm That doesn't even make sense that the Jaredites were the offspring of Ham. Ham's seed was cursed and mixed with the Nephilim and Anakites. Jared and his family were of pure Adamic line.
Please prove this
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm The faulty logic presented in the idea that descendants of cain had black skin.
-God cursed Cain for killing Abel and placed a mark on him. The assumption or implication of this mark was black/dark colored skin, even though the scriptures do not say this
-It says Cain’s descendants were black. The guess is that it means black/dark colored skin
-Blackness came upon the Canaanites. The supposition being that this blackness was black/dark colored skin
-Pharaoh, descended from Ham and his wife, Egyptus, had Canaanite blood. The assumption is that these descendants were cursed with black skin, assuming again the canaanites were descendants of cain
-It says Pharaoh couldn't receive the priesthood. The presumption again is that this is because he was black skinned, assuming he was a descendant of cain
-Thus the conclusion is that black people are cursed, and cannot have the priesthood
No it isn't any supposition, it's based off the fact that Joseph Smith said that the blacks were the seed of Cain, Canaan, Ham and the fact that the Scriptures say that they were black

It's conjecture. You're retrofitting something that isn't there.

You guys' crutching on Joseph for making blacks out to be cursed of the priesthood is ridiculous considering there were black men ordained under Joseph.

Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm The scriptures do not say the descendants of cain survived the flood. Neither do they say the mark of cain was black skin. So this is heavily entrenched in conjecture, especially in the connection of the curse that Noah placed on Canaan to the curse that was placed on Cain for killing Abel. They are two separate and distinct curses.
Once again this is simply untrue and we don't even need JS words to know that

Two separate curses. Neither of them say the curse was black skin. The scriptures do not say the descendants of cain survived the flood.

Your argument is flawed.

Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm Curse is another word for judgment of God. Ham's posterity was cursed (damned, devoted to destruction, abominable).
Yes and the sign of the curse was black skin

Again, show me where it says the sign of the curse was black skin.
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm Priesthood is relationship with God.
Disagree, as you have to ignore hundreds of Scriptures and quotes for this to be so. However they are very closely linked

The rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven. This is how acting in the name of God by his power works. You have to have a connection of God, not using his power for your own benefit, but closely aligned with the will of God.
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm Ham's seed was cursed in that they could not enter the presence of God
No, it was pertaining to the Priesthood, as the Book of Abraham plainly says
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm (his seed continued and birthed the sons of perdition who suffer the second death, which is to be cut off from God). They were black or destitute of light, just like the seed of Cain. The canaanites were evil because they mingled with the Nephilim or Watchers, the race of Giants and sons of perdition. They participated in blood oaths and sacrifices, cannibalism, and sexual deviancy. They were the seed of Adam mixed with the seed of men, and it allowed sons of perdition to be born into these bodies.
Yes I agree with this

If you agreed with this, you would agree with my previous sentence.
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm The idea that blacks were the descendants of Ham (which was originally a Southern Protestant doctrine, used to justify slavery, that predates Mormonism) was ignorant of both geography and history. Ham and his descendants lived in Egypt and modern-day Palestine, nowhere near where the majority of black African slaves who were the ancestors of most modern black Americans came from. Geneologically there is no connection between them at all, so it is not a valid rationale for why the priesthood ban was put in place.
Then why did Joseph Smith teach this "false, racist" doctrine?

Because the traditions of men are a plague all must overcome. Joseph wasn't perfect.
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm It is a spiritual connotation stating they were destitute of light, dark in nature, and evil; abominable.

1828 Webster’s dictionary:
BLACK'NESS, noun The quality of being black; black color; darkness; atrociousness or enormity in wickedness.

BLACK, adjective
1. Of the color of night; destitute of light; dark.
2. Darkened by clouds; as the heavens black with clouds.
3. Sullen; having a cloudy look or countenance.
4. Atrociously wicked; horrible; as a black deed or crime.
5. Dismal; mournful; calamitous.
Sorry, but you are desperately clutching at straws. They were cursed, they had black skin as a mark. Deal with it

I'm Luke. I deny the contextualized spiritual connotation the word black has in this instance, and the 1830 definition of black. I then tell people to suck it up and believe that black people can't have priesthood based on conjecture, lack of unoquivocal text saying the mark/curse of cain was black skin, and racist ideologies invented to justify slavery, even though the scriptures specifically say God is no respecter of persons.
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm Now as to if the Brother of Jared had priesthood, let's take a look.

Ether 1
38 And it came to pass that Jared spake again unto his brother, saying: Go and inquire of the Lord whether he will drive us out of the land, and if he will drive us out of the land, cry unto him whither we shall go. And who knoweth but the Lord will carry us forth into a land which is choice above all the earth? And if it so be, let us be faithful unto the Lord, that we may receive it for our inheritance.

The land of Inheritance is given unto the Lord's people. Why would the Lord give it to "cursed blacks"?
The same reason for this:
  • Mark 16

    17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Does it say that signs follow those with Priesthood? No, it says signs follow those who believe. Or in other words, faith

Which is why Jared says "let us be faithful unto the Lord, that we may receive it for our inheritance."

The condition upon receiving the blessing was faith, not Priesthood. To somehow read it as being about Priesthood is simply wrong

Faith is the key which opens the blessings of heaven. Priesthood is the power of the Lord in action. The gifts of the spirit are priesthood. It is how the servants (priests and priestesses) of God work in the kingdom.
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm 39 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord according to that which had been spoken by the mouth of Jared.
40 And it came to pass that the Lord did hear the brother of Jared, and had compassion upon him, and said unto him:

The brother of Jared is crying unto the Lord, and the Lord is answering by revelation. Priesthood is a relationship with God. How would the brother of Jared be able to communicate and counsel with the Lord if he did not have a relationship with him?
Priesthood is more than just relationship with God, but again these are closely linked

Here's how the brother of Jared communicated with the Lord:
  • Moroni 7

    16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
So yeah, nothing to do with whether they did or didn't have the Priesthood

Everything which is good which invites us to believe in Christ is sent by the power and gifts of God. This is exactly what priesthood is. The power of God is made manifest in our lives as we seek his will. The more we act in faith, hope, and charity, the deeper love we have for God and closer relationship we have with him.
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm 43 And there will I bless thee and thy seed, and raise up unto me of thy seed, and of the seed of thy brother, and they who shall go with thee, a great nation. And there shall be none greater than the nation which I will raise up unto me of thy seed, upon all the face of the earth. And thus I will do unto thee because this long time ye have cried unto me.

The seed of Jared was of pure Adamic line.
Yeah, that Scripture doesn't say anything about being of the pure Adamic line. Again, wild assumptions being made on your part in order for you to not have to accept the curse of Cain doctrine

The word that is used here is "bless" or "blessed". Blessed means to be anointed and extolled. The beatitudes are a pattern to become the Lord's servants. Anointed with the baptism of fire and Holy Ghost; which is to receive the endowment. Also those blessed/anointed servants of God. This is accomplished by ascending through the beatitudes, which are the blueprint for making a servant of Jesus.

This is what priesthood is; becoming the servants of God and exercising the gifts of God.

At this time in the world, the Lord's covenant people were being born into the family of Adam specifically. It wasn't until the time of the gentiles that the covenant was opened unto others.

This would mean the Jaredites, if they are to be blessed, would need to be of Adamic line. It says right there in this verse that the nation raised up by this people would be above all nations. The lord is establishing his covenant amongst his people here. Hence their journeying to the Land of Covenant/Promise, given only to the Lord's people. It was the original land of their forefathers, even Adam.


Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm Ether 2
7 And the Lord would not suffer that they should stop beyond the sea in the wilderness, but he would that they should come forth even unto the land of promise, which was choice above all other lands, which the Lord God had preserved for a righteous people.
8 And he had sworn in his wrath unto the brother of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them.

It says it is for a righteous people. The Jaredites are returning to the Holy Land of their fathers, Adam and Enoch.
Every Scripture you've quoted hasn't said anything about them having Priesthood. Is the Priesthood only for righteous people? The answer is obviously no, so yet again your argument fails

Priesthood is only for righteous people yes.

D&C 121
36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm 12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.
13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

The brother of Jared was redeemed (saved) and ascended to the throne into the presence of God. He was in his presence. This is eternal life. You're telling me the Brother of Jared didn't have relationship with God?
No one said he didn't have relationship with God. I said if he was indeed black, he didn't have Priesthood. The two are not one and the same
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm 19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.
20 Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him.

He had the key of knowledge of God, which is priesthood. HE KNEW GOD.
Seeing God does not equal Priesthood. Joseph did not have the Priesthood in 1820

Joseph's first vision wasn't an ascension. The brother of Jared's was. It literally says the brother of Jared was redeemed (saved; received the baptism of fire and Holy Ghost). This is how one is able to come into the presence of God, by the gift of the Holy Ghost. It wasn't the fact that he saw God. It was the fact that his relationship with the Lord was pure and so he was given the gift of Knowledge of God, which is eternal Life. His calling and election was made sure.
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Sorry when I said "is the Priesthood only for righteous people?", I meant that you don't need to have the Priesthood to be righteous. There are righteous people who do not have Priesthood

I'm not going to bother rehashing what I've already said. Your arguments simply don't fit

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Alexander
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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by Alexander »

Robin Hood wrote: December 26th, 2020, 1:18 pm Alexander, you're going to great lengths to try to make a square peg fit in a round hole.
There is not one mention of priesthood or authority in the Jaredite record. In fact, it's conspicuous by its absence.
And in an attempt to give that square peg a mighty shove, you are having to make and stretch significant assumptions.
On the contrary.

Ether 3 proves the brother of Jared had priesthood because of his relationship with the Lord.

There are other instances of priesthood authority in the Book of Ether.

Ether 7
17 And they were taught to walk humbly before the Lord; and they were also taught from on high.

They were taught from on high, meaning from angels and the Lord. This requires priesthood.

25 And he did execute a law throughout all the land, which gave power unto the prophets that they should go whithersoever they would; and by this cause the people were brought unto repentance.

The gift of prophecy requires relationship with the Lord. You can't relay his will if you don't have his will. The calling of prophets is to preach repentance. The servants of God require the permission and power of God to fulfill their callings. It requires priesthood.

Ether 11
1 And there came also in the days of Com many prophets, and prophesied of the destruction of that great people except they should repent, and turn unto the Lord, and forsake their murders and wickedness.

Again, more prophets of the Lord.

21 And that the Lord God would send or bring forth another people to possess the land, by his power, after the manner by which he brought their fathers.

Notice how it says it is by the power of the Lord God that people are directed here to the land of Promise.

Ether 12
2 And Ether was a prophet of the Lord; wherefore Ether came forth in the days of Coriantumr, and began to prophesy unto the people, for he could not be restrained because of the Spirit of the Lord which was in him.
3 For he did cry from the morning, even until the going down of the sun, exhorting the people to believe in God unto repentance lest they should be destroyed, saying unto them that by faith all things are fulfilled—
4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.
5 And it came to pass that Ether did prophesy great and marvelous things unto the people, which they did not believe, because they saw them not.

Ether prophesied because of his calling from God. He was commanded by the spirit to teach the people to repent and have faith. Faith is how we abound in the good works of God. This is priesthood, to become the servants of Jesus.

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Alexander
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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by Alexander »

Luke wrote: December 26th, 2020, 2:01 pm
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 1:55 pm
Luke wrote: December 26th, 2020, 1:04 pm
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm That doesn't even make sense that the Jaredites were the offspring of Ham. Ham's seed was cursed and mixed with the Nephilim and Anakites. Jared and his family were of pure Adamic line.
Please prove this
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm The faulty logic presented in the idea that descendants of cain had black skin.
-God cursed Cain for killing Abel and placed a mark on him. The assumption or implication of this mark was black/dark colored skin, even though the scriptures do not say this
-It says Cain’s descendants were black. The guess is that it means black/dark colored skin
-Blackness came upon the Canaanites. The supposition being that this blackness was black/dark colored skin
-Pharaoh, descended from Ham and his wife, Egyptus, had Canaanite blood. The assumption is that these descendants were cursed with black skin, assuming again the canaanites were descendants of cain
-It says Pharaoh couldn't receive the priesthood. The presumption again is that this is because he was black skinned, assuming he was a descendant of cain
-Thus the conclusion is that black people are cursed, and cannot have the priesthood
No it isn't any supposition, it's based off the fact that Joseph Smith said that the blacks were the seed of Cain, Canaan, Ham and the fact that the Scriptures say that they were black

It's conjecture. You're retrofitting something that isn't there.

You guys' crutching on Joseph for making blacks out to be cursed of the priesthood is ridiculous considering there were black men ordained under Joseph.

Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm The scriptures do not say the descendants of cain survived the flood. Neither do they say the mark of cain was black skin. So this is heavily entrenched in conjecture, especially in the connection of the curse that Noah placed on Canaan to the curse that was placed on Cain for killing Abel. They are two separate and distinct curses.
Once again this is simply untrue and we don't even need JS words to know that

Two separate curses. Neither of them say the curse was black skin. The scriptures do not say the descendants of cain survived the flood.

Your argument is flawed.

Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm Curse is another word for judgment of God. Ham's posterity was cursed (damned, devoted to destruction, abominable).
Yes and the sign of the curse was black skin

Again, show me where it says the sign of the curse was black skin.
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm Priesthood is relationship with God.
Disagree, as you have to ignore hundreds of Scriptures and quotes for this to be so. However they are very closely linked

The rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven. This is how acting in the name of God by his power works. You have to have a connection of God, not using his power for your own benefit, but closely aligned with the will of God.
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm Ham's seed was cursed in that they could not enter the presence of God
No, it was pertaining to the Priesthood, as the Book of Abraham plainly says
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm (his seed continued and birthed the sons of perdition who suffer the second death, which is to be cut off from God). They were black or destitute of light, just like the seed of Cain. The canaanites were evil because they mingled with the Nephilim or Watchers, the race of Giants and sons of perdition. They participated in blood oaths and sacrifices, cannibalism, and sexual deviancy. They were the seed of Adam mixed with the seed of men, and it allowed sons of perdition to be born into these bodies.
Yes I agree with this

If you agreed with this, you would agree with my previous sentence.
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm The idea that blacks were the descendants of Ham (which was originally a Southern Protestant doctrine, used to justify slavery, that predates Mormonism) was ignorant of both geography and history. Ham and his descendants lived in Egypt and modern-day Palestine, nowhere near where the majority of black African slaves who were the ancestors of most modern black Americans came from. Geneologically there is no connection between them at all, so it is not a valid rationale for why the priesthood ban was put in place.
Then why did Joseph Smith teach this "false, racist" doctrine?

Because the traditions of men are a plague all must overcome. Joseph wasn't perfect.
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm It is a spiritual connotation stating they were destitute of light, dark in nature, and evil; abominable.

1828 Webster’s dictionary:
BLACK'NESS, noun The quality of being black; black color; darkness; atrociousness or enormity in wickedness.

BLACK, adjective
1. Of the color of night; destitute of light; dark.
2. Darkened by clouds; as the heavens black with clouds.
3. Sullen; having a cloudy look or countenance.
4. Atrociously wicked; horrible; as a black deed or crime.
5. Dismal; mournful; calamitous.
Sorry, but you are desperately clutching at straws. They were cursed, they had black skin as a mark. Deal with it

I'm Luke. I deny the contextualized spiritual connotation the word black has in this instance, and the 1830 definition of black. I then tell people to suck it up and believe that black people can't have priesthood based on conjecture, lack of unoquivocal text saying the mark/curse of cain was black skin, and racist ideologies invented to justify slavery, even though the scriptures specifically say God is no respecter of persons.
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm Now as to if the Brother of Jared had priesthood, let's take a look.

Ether 1
38 And it came to pass that Jared spake again unto his brother, saying: Go and inquire of the Lord whether he will drive us out of the land, and if he will drive us out of the land, cry unto him whither we shall go. And who knoweth but the Lord will carry us forth into a land which is choice above all the earth? And if it so be, let us be faithful unto the Lord, that we may receive it for our inheritance.

The land of Inheritance is given unto the Lord's people. Why would the Lord give it to "cursed blacks"?
The same reason for this:
  • Mark 16

    17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Does it say that signs follow those with Priesthood? No, it says signs follow those who believe. Or in other words, faith

Which is why Jared says "let us be faithful unto the Lord, that we may receive it for our inheritance."

The condition upon receiving the blessing was faith, not Priesthood. To somehow read it as being about Priesthood is simply wrong

Faith is the key which opens the blessings of heaven. Priesthood is the power of the Lord in action. The gifts of the spirit are priesthood. It is how the servants (priests and priestesses) of God work in the kingdom.
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm 39 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord according to that which had been spoken by the mouth of Jared.
40 And it came to pass that the Lord did hear the brother of Jared, and had compassion upon him, and said unto him:

The brother of Jared is crying unto the Lord, and the Lord is answering by revelation. Priesthood is a relationship with God. How would the brother of Jared be able to communicate and counsel with the Lord if he did not have a relationship with him?
Priesthood is more than just relationship with God, but again these are closely linked

Here's how the brother of Jared communicated with the Lord:
  • Moroni 7

    16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
So yeah, nothing to do with whether they did or didn't have the Priesthood

Everything which is good which invites us to believe in Christ is sent by the power and gifts of God. This is exactly what priesthood is. The power of God is made manifest in our lives as we seek his will. The more we act in faith, hope, and charity, the deeper love we have for God and closer relationship we have with him.
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm 43 And there will I bless thee and thy seed, and raise up unto me of thy seed, and of the seed of thy brother, and they who shall go with thee, a great nation. And there shall be none greater than the nation which I will raise up unto me of thy seed, upon all the face of the earth. And thus I will do unto thee because this long time ye have cried unto me.

The seed of Jared was of pure Adamic line.
Yeah, that Scripture doesn't say anything about being of the pure Adamic line. Again, wild assumptions being made on your part in order for you to not have to accept the curse of Cain doctrine

The word that is used here is "bless" or "blessed". Blessed means to be anointed and extolled. The beatitudes are a pattern to become the Lord's servants. Anointed with the baptism of fire and Holy Ghost; which is to receive the endowment. Also those blessed/anointed servants of God. This is accomplished by ascending through the beatitudes, which are the blueprint for making a servant of Jesus.

This is what priesthood is; becoming the servants of God and exercising the gifts of God.

At this time in the world, the Lord's covenant people were being born into the family of Adam specifically. It wasn't until the time of the gentiles that the covenant was opened unto others.

This would mean the Jaredites, if they are to be blessed, would need to be of Adamic line. It says right there in this verse that the nation raised up by this people would be above all nations. The lord is establishing his covenant amongst his people here. Hence their journeying to the Land of Covenant/Promise, given only to the Lord's people. It was the original land of their forefathers, even Adam.


Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm Ether 2
7 And the Lord would not suffer that they should stop beyond the sea in the wilderness, but he would that they should come forth even unto the land of promise, which was choice above all other lands, which the Lord God had preserved for a righteous people.
8 And he had sworn in his wrath unto the brother of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them.

It says it is for a righteous people. The Jaredites are returning to the Holy Land of their fathers, Adam and Enoch.
Every Scripture you've quoted hasn't said anything about them having Priesthood. Is the Priesthood only for righteous people? The answer is obviously no, so yet again your argument fails

Priesthood is only for righteous people yes.

D&C 121
36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm 12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.
13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

The brother of Jared was redeemed (saved) and ascended to the throne into the presence of God. He was in his presence. This is eternal life. You're telling me the Brother of Jared didn't have relationship with God?
No one said he didn't have relationship with God. I said if he was indeed black, he didn't have Priesthood. The two are not one and the same
Alexander wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:17 pm 19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.
20 Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him.

He had the key of knowledge of God, which is priesthood. HE KNEW GOD.
Seeing God does not equal Priesthood. Joseph did not have the Priesthood in 1820

Joseph's first vision wasn't an ascension. The brother of Jared's was. It literally says the brother of Jared was redeemed (saved; received the baptism of fire and Holy Ghost). This is how one is able to come into the presence of God, by the gift of the Holy Ghost. It wasn't the fact that he saw God. It was the fact that his relationship with the Lord was pure and so he was given the gift of Knowledge of God, which is eternal Life. His calling and election was made sure.
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Sorry when I said "is the Priesthood only for righteous people?", I meant that you don't need to have the Priesthood to be righteous. There are righteous people who do not have Priesthood

I'm not going to bother rehashing what I've already said. Your arguments simply don't fit
C'mon Luke. You know better.

"Who can drag into daylight and develop the hidden mysteries of the false spirits that so frequently are made manifest among the Latter-day Saints? We answer that no man can do this without the Priesthood.
...
And how were Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Teachers and Evangelists chosen? By prophecy (revelation) and by laying on of hands: —by a divine communication, and a divinely appointed ordinance—through the medium of the Priesthood, organized according to the order of God, by divine appointment. The Apostles in ancient times held the keys of this Priesthood—of the mysteries of the kingdom of God, and consequently were enabled to unlock and unravel all things pertaining to the government of the Church, the welfare of society, the future destiny of men, and the agency, power and influence of spirits"
History of the Church, 4:571–75, 580

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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by simpleton »

I do not think for minute that the Jaredites were black, period. Those sculptured stones above were of a short race, whereas the Jaredites, I believe, were a tall race, almost Giants?
But I suppose nothing is wrong with speculation.
But why this seeming desire to just make everyone black. Politically correct I suppose.

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jreuben
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Re: "The Jaredites were Black" by David Grant Stewart Sr.

Post by jreuben »

David Grant Stewart is a brilliant fellow, but he is not correct in his assertion that these were the Jaredites. These are another group that is not associated with them whatsoever. We must recall that even the Book of Mormon acknowledges that there were other groups spread abroad the regions that were neither Nephites nor Lamanites nor Jaredites. The Jaredites were in North America and it is likely that they were Giants, being quite directly of the blood of Adam. Refer to the much research and destroyed evidence by the Smithsonian.

Budcat7 has a series of fascinating videos about giants in North America: https://www.youtube.com/user/budcat7/videos

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