Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
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Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
I enjoy studying the Creation & Garden story and considering the symbolic meaning behind it. There is so much depth to it beyond a literal meaning. I wanted to see what you think about this theory...
So, the theory is that Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4.
In Genesis 3, it was always the "Lord God" speaking to Adam and Eve (while they were in the Garden).
In Genesis 4, after leaving the Garden, there are several references to "Lord" but not "Lord God". There are few references to "Adam" and no interaction between Adam and God or the Lord. All of Cain and Abel's interactions with the "Lord" are the type of interactions that you'd be more likely to have with your own Father, not a God whose presence you had been separated from.
Before Cain murdered Abel, he was already not on a good path. "Cain loved Satan more than God".
Adam had previously been given dominion over the lower level creations. As a son of God, he could be considered the Lord in this context. He was also taught the Gospel, given the knowledge of God, and told to preach it to his family. Everything about his status on the earth at that time and the interactions in Genesis 4 / Moses 5, in my opinion, make more sense that Adam is the Lord being referred to.
So, the theory is that Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4.
In Genesis 3, it was always the "Lord God" speaking to Adam and Eve (while they were in the Garden).
In Genesis 4, after leaving the Garden, there are several references to "Lord" but not "Lord God". There are few references to "Adam" and no interaction between Adam and God or the Lord. All of Cain and Abel's interactions with the "Lord" are the type of interactions that you'd be more likely to have with your own Father, not a God whose presence you had been separated from.
Before Cain murdered Abel, he was already not on a good path. "Cain loved Satan more than God".
Adam had previously been given dominion over the lower level creations. As a son of God, he could be considered the Lord in this context. He was also taught the Gospel, given the knowledge of God, and told to preach it to his family. Everything about his status on the earth at that time and the interactions in Genesis 4 / Moses 5, in my opinion, make more sense that Adam is the Lord being referred to.
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
Theory? More like fact. Good stuff Brian
Another piece of the puzzle:
Another piece of the puzzle:
- “After the deed was done, the Lord enquired for Abel, and made Cain own what he had done with him. Now says the grandfather, I will not destroy the seed of Michael and his wife, and Cain I will not kill you, nor suffer anyone else to kill you, but I will put a mark upon you.” (Brigham Young, Speech at the territorial legislature, Church Archives, 5 February 1852, MABY, Ms d 1234, Box 48 fd 12)
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
The "grandfather" lol ....Luke wrote: ↑December 10th, 2020, 1:11 pm Theory? More like fact. Good stuff Brian
Another piece of the puzzle:
- “After the deed was done, the Lord enquired for Abel, and made Cain own what he had done with him. Now says the grandfather, I will not destroy the seed of Michael and his wife, and Cain I will not kill you, nor suffer anyone else to kill you, but I will put a mark upon you.” (Brigham Young, Speech at the territorial legislature, Church Archives, 5 February 1852, MABY, Ms d 1234, Box 48 fd 12)
I thought we have nothing to do with that God ?................................
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
Wow, what an observation, nice catch. Excited to get home to read and study those passages/sections/verses with those 'glasses' onThe Creator wrote: ↑December 10th, 2020, 1:01 pm I enjoy studying the Creation & Garden story and considering the symbolic meaning behind it. There is so much depth to it beyond a literal meaning. I wanted to see what you think about this theory...
So, the theory is that Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4.
In Genesis 3, it was always the "Lord God" speaking to Adam and Eve (while they were in the Garden).
In Genesis 4, after leaving the Garden, there are several references to "Lord" but not "Lord God". There are few references to "Adam" and no interaction between Adam and God or the Lord. All of Cain and Abel's interactions with the "Lord" are the type of interactions that you'd be more likely to have with your own Father, not a God whose presence you had been separated from.
Before Cain murdered Abel, he was already not on a good path. "Cain loved Satan more than God".
Adam had previously been given dominion over the lower level creations. As a son of God, he could be considered the Lord in this context. He was also taught the Gospel, given the knowledge of God, and told to preach it to his family. Everything about his status on the earth at that time and the interactions in Genesis 4 / Moses 5, in my opinion, make more sense that Adam is the Lord being referred to.
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
And yet Joseph Smith spoke of him:
- “Our text says, ‘And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father.’ The Apostles have discovered that there were Gods above, for John says God was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. My object was to preach the scriptures, and preach the doctrine they contain, there being a God above, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . If Abraham reasoned thus--If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it.” (Joseph Smith, TPJS 370, 373, 16 June 1844)
Check out Brigham's October 1854 Sermonnightlight wrote: ↑December 10th, 2020, 1:28 pm I thought we have nothing to do with that God ?................................
As Wilford Woodruff said, it was possibly one of the greatest sermons ever delivered to the Latter-day Saints
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
Old Hymn:
- We believe in our God, the great Prince of his race,
The Archangel, Michael, the Ancient of Days,
Our own Father Adam, earth's Lord as is plain,
Who'll counsel and fight for his children again.
We believe in his Son Jesus Christ, who in love,
For his brothers and sisters, came down from above;
To die to redeem them from death, and to teach,
To mortals and spirits the Gospel we preach.
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
At some point I will post a bunch of additional insights I've found in reading these stories, stuff that wasn't mentioned in the information I got growing up in the Church.Cruiserdude wrote: ↑December 10th, 2020, 1:47 pm Wow, what an observation, nice catch. Excited to get home to read and study those passages/sections/verses with those 'glasses' on
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
That is interesting. To be clear, I wasn't posting the "Adam is the Lord" theory for the purpose of "Adam-God" discussion. There are a few different theories this could fit into.Luke wrote: ↑December 10th, 2020, 2:46 pm Old Hymn:
Also if you have a hymnbook handy, look at Hymn #51...
- We believe in our God, the great Prince of his race,
The Archangel, Michael, the Ancient of Days,
Our own Father Adam, earth's Lord as is plain,
Who'll counsel and fight for his children again.
We believe in his Son Jesus Christ, who in love,
For his brothers and sisters, came down from above;
To die to redeem them from death, and to teach,
To mortals and spirits the Gospel we preach.
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
Yeah don’t worry, and yes there are ways it can fit into multiple ideasThe Creator wrote: ↑December 10th, 2020, 4:42 pmThat is interesting. To be clear, I wasn't posting the "Adam is the Lord" theory for the purpose of "Adam-God" discussion. There are a few different theories this could fit into.Luke wrote: ↑December 10th, 2020, 2:46 pm Old Hymn:
Also if you have a hymnbook handy, look at Hymn #51...
- We believe in our God, the great Prince of his race,
The Archangel, Michael, the Ancient of Days,
Our own Father Adam, earth's Lord as is plain,
Who'll counsel and fight for his children again.
We believe in his Son Jesus Christ, who in love,
For his brothers and sisters, came down from above;
To die to redeem them from death, and to teach,
To mortals and spirits the Gospel we preach.
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
For a while in my mind, I've imagined Adam speaking the words of the Lord through revelation to Cain. Similar idea.The Creator wrote: ↑December 10th, 2020, 1:01 pm I enjoy studying the Creation & Garden story and considering the symbolic meaning behind it. There is so much depth to it beyond a literal meaning. I wanted to see what you think about this theory...
So, the theory is that Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4.
In Genesis 3, it was always the "Lord God" speaking to Adam and Eve (while they were in the Garden).
In Genesis 4, after leaving the Garden, there are several references to "Lord" but not "Lord God". There are few references to "Adam" and no interaction between Adam and God or the Lord. All of Cain and Abel's interactions with the "Lord" are the type of interactions that you'd be more likely to have with your own Father, not a God whose presence you had been separated from.
Before Cain murdered Abel, he was already not on a good path. "Cain loved Satan more than God".
Adam had previously been given dominion over the lower level creations. As a son of God, he could be considered the Lord in this context. He was also taught the Gospel, given the knowledge of God, and told to preach it to his family. Everything about his status on the earth at that time and the interactions in Genesis 4 / Moses 5, in my opinion, make more sense that Adam is the Lord being referred to.
There are other parallels: Adam is driven out from the garden and God; Cain is driven out from society and Adam. In dramatic form, the stories may teach about gradations of glory.
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
This is fascinating. I had never thought of this before. So, are you saying that the one who warned Cain about sin, then called him on murdering Abel could have been Adam? (I haven't read the PoGP for a while, and my memory's rusty on whether it was the Lord, or the Lord God who talked to him.)The Creator wrote: ↑December 10th, 2020, 1:01 pm In Genesis 4, after leaving the Garden, there are several references to "Lord" but not "Lord God". There are few references to "Adam" and no interaction between Adam and God or the Lord. All of Cain and Abel's interactions with the "Lord" are the type of interactions that you'd be more likely to have with your own Father, not a God whose presence you had been separated from.
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
I had never thought of this. Something to really think about (and I wonder how many other parallels we/I miss that are out there in plain sight).
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
Read the chapter. No doubt about it. Adam IS referred to as the Lord in that chapter.Silver Pie wrote: ↑January 10th, 2021, 9:19 pm This is fascinating. I had never thought of this before. So, are you saying that the one who warned Cain about sin, then called him on murdering Abel could have been Adam? (I haven't read the PoGP for a while, and my memory's rusty on whether it was the Lord, or the Lord God who talked to him.)
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
The Creator wrote: ↑January 10th, 2021, 9:47 pm Read the chapter. No doubt about it. Adam IS referred to as the Lord in that chapter.
Interesting. Cain was never in the presence of God because his parents got kicked out from God's presence before he was conceived. This strengthens your view, imo.Cain went out from the presence of the Lord
Gen 4:16
So, now I'm wondering about the mark the Lord set upon Cain. A tattoo? A brand (like we brand cattle)? A piercing? There's no way Adam could have changed the skin color of Cain and his descendants (which reminds me of the thread saying that the "blackness" in the OT and BoM are not talking about skin color at all).
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
What about Moses 5:16?
Cain said, "Who is the Lord that I should know him?"
Do you think this is colored by Joseph Smith's belief that "Lord" in Genesis is God, so he didn't write "Lord God"? Or something else?
Cain said, "Who is the Lord that I should know him?"
Do you think this is colored by Joseph Smith's belief that "Lord" in Genesis is God, so he didn't write "Lord God"? Or something else?
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
Moses 6:59 and Ether 3:16 prove Adam-God
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
Interesting point, and I would throw in this quote to the mix as well:Silver Pie wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 12:50 pm What about Moses 5:16?
Cain said, "Who is the Lord that I should know him?"
Do you think this is colored by Joseph Smith's belief that "Lord" in Genesis is God, so he didn't write "Lord God"? Or something else?
- “After the deed was done, the Lord enquired for Abel, and made Cain own what he had done with him. Now says the grandfather, I will not destroy the seed of Michael and his wife, and Cain I will not kill you, nor suffer anyone else to kill you, but I will put a mark upon you.” (Manuscript Addresses of Brigham Young, 5 February 1852)
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
6:59
That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
3:16
I don't see that. I see that Adam had to be baptized, and the symbolism was explained to him. In the second scripture, I see Jesus appearing to the brother of Jared, and telling him that "what I look like now is what I will look like when I get a body."Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.
There is nothing there to even hint to me that Adam was God before he was born.
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
Because of Luke's reply, I went to Strong's numbers to see what it said about the word "Lord" in Genesis 4:16. This is what it said:
So, now I'm not so sure - because Strong's numbers are a really good study guide to help one understand the scriptures.
Source: http://www.godrules.net/library/kjvstro ... gsgen4.htmWord: DEDI
Pronounce: yeh-ho-vaw'
Strong: H3068
Orig: from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--Jehovah, the Lord. Compare 3050, 3069. H1961 H3050 H3069
Use: TWOT-484a Proper Name
Grk Strong: G1203 G2316 G2962
Jehovah = "the existing One"
1) the proper name of the one true God
1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of H136
So, now I'm not so sure - because Strong's numbers are a really good study guide to help one understand the scriptures.
4:16 And Cain 7014 went out 3318 8799 from the presence 6440 of the LORD 3068, and dwelt 3427 8799 in the land 776 of Nod 5113, on the east 6926 of Eden 5731.
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
I agree. And still I would make the same point from my original post. Also, I'm not necessarily trying to make the same points or conclusions as Luke. It would be difficult to put my full perspective into a post. We all experience the world so differently, it's not always easy to communicate the things we understand.Silver Pie wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 1:34 pmStrong's numbers are a really good study guide to help one understand the scriptures.
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
OkayThe Creator wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 2:14 pm I agree. And still I would make the same point from my original post.
I did clearly understand that.Also, I'm not necessarily trying to make the same points or conclusions as Luke.
True. We really do. I can understand this dilemma.It would be difficult to put my full perspective into a post. We all experience the world so differently, it's not always easy to communicate the things we understand.
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
On biblical Hebrew and Greek, Mounce's is said to be better than Strong's, plus other recommendations:
https://benspackman.com/2021/01/01/quic ... -at-logos/
https://benspackman.com/2021/01/01/quic ... -at-logos/
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
I only see Greek on his website. https://www.billmounce.com/ParticleMan wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 6:14 pm On biblical Hebrew and Greek, Mounce's is said to be better than Strong's, plus other recommendations:
https://benspackman.com/2021/01/01/quic ... -at-logos/
This site has Mounce on the sidebar of Genesis 4:16, but only has Adam, Brother, and Man as entries (so no definition of Lord). https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
The article references "Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words":Silver Pie wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 7:02 pmI only see Greek on his website. https://www.billmounce.com/ParticleMan wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 6:14 pm On biblical Hebrew and Greek, Mounce's is said to be better than Strong's, plus other recommendations:
https://benspackman.com/2021/01/01/quic ... -at-logos/
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0310248787
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5
Sorry, I should have explained in my post. Here's why it proves Adam-GodSilver Pie wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 1:28 pm6:59That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
3:16I don't see that. I see that Adam had to be baptized, and the symbolism was explained to him. In the second scripture, I see Jesus appearing to the brother of Jared, and telling him that "what I look like now is what I will look like when I get a body."Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.
There is nothing there to even hint to me that Adam was God before he was born.
- Moses 6
59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
- Ether 3
16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.
From these two Scriptures we learn that:
1. Adam DID had a body before coming to this earth
2. Jesus DID NOT have a body before coming to this earth
Conclusion: Adam is ahead of Jesus in progression, and we reasonably conclude that Adam-God is a true doctrine