Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5

[creator]

I enjoy studying the Creation & Garden story and considering the symbolic meaning behind it. There is so much depth to it beyond a literal meaning. I wanted to see what you think about this theory...

So, the theory is that Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4.

In Genesis 3, it was always the "Lord God" speaking to Adam and Eve (while they were in the Garden).

In Genesis 4, after leaving the Garden, there are several references to "Lord" but not "Lord God". There are few references to "Adam" and no interaction between Adam and God or the Lord. All of Cain and Abel's interactions with the "Lord" are the type of interactions that you'd be more likely to have with your own Father, not a God whose presence you had been separated from.

Before Cain murdered Abel, he was already not on a good path. "Cain loved Satan more than God".

Adam had previously been given dominion over the lower level creations. As a son of God, he could be considered the Lord in this context. He was also taught the Gospel, given the knowledge of God, and told to preach it to his family. Everything about his status on the earth at that time and the interactions in Genesis 4 / Moses 5, in my opinion, make more sense that Adam is the Lord being referred to.

[Luke]

Theory? More like fact. Good stuff Brian

Another piece of the puzzle:

• “After the deed was done, the Lord enquired for Abel, and made Cain own what he had done with him. Now says the grandfather, I will not destroy the seed of Michael and his wife, and Cain I will not kill you, nor suffer anyone else to kill you, but I will put a mark upon you.” (Brigham Young, Speech at the territorial legislature, Church Archives, 5 February 1852, MABY, Ms d 1234, Box 48 fd 12)

[nightlight]

Theory? More like fact. Good stuff Brian

Another piece of the puzzle:

• “After the deed was done, the Lord enquired for Abel, and made Cain own what he had done with him. Now says the grandfather, I will not destroy the seed of Michael and his wife, and Cain I will not kill you, nor suffer anyone else to kill you, but I will put a mark upon you.” (Brigham Young, Speech at the territorial legislature, Church Archives, 5 February 1852, MABY, Ms d 1234, Box 48 fd 12)

The "grandfather" lol ....

I thought we have nothing to do with that God ?................................

[Cruiserdude]

I enjoy studying the Creation & Garden story and considering the symbolic meaning behind it. There is so much depth to it beyond a literal meaning. I wanted to see what you think about this theory...

So, the theory is that Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4.

In Genesis 3, it was always the "Lord God" speaking to Adam and Eve (while they were in the Garden).

In Genesis 4, after leaving the Garden, there are several references to "Lord" but not "Lord God". There are few references to "Adam" and no interaction between Adam and God or the Lord. All of Cain and Abel's interactions with the "Lord" are the type of interactions that you'd be more likely to have with your own Father, not a God whose presence you had been separated from.

Before Cain murdered Abel, he was already not on a good path. "Cain loved Satan more than God".

Adam had previously been given dominion over the lower level creations. As a son of God, he could be considered the Lord in this context. He was also taught the Gospel, given the knowledge of God, and told to preach it to his family. Everything about his status on the earth at that time and the interactions in Genesis 4 / Moses 5, in my opinion, make more sense that Adam is the Lord being referred to.

Wow, what an observation, nice catch. Excited to get home to read and study those passages/sections/verses with those 'glasses' on

[Luke]

The "grandfather" lol ....

And yet Joseph Smith spoke of him:

• “Our text says, ‘And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father.’ The Apostles have discovered that there were Gods above, for John says God was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. My object was to preach the scriptures, and preach the doctrine they contain, there being a God above, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . If Abraham reasoned thus--If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it.” (Joseph Smith, TPJS 370, 373, 16 June 1844)
  

I thought we have nothing to do with that God ?................................

Check out Brigham's October 1854 Sermon

As Wilford Woodruff said, it was possibly one of the greatest sermons ever delivered to the Latter-day Saints

[Luke]

Old Hymn:

• We believe in our God, the great Prince of his race,
  The Archangel, Michael, the Ancient of Days,
  Our own Father Adam, earth's Lord as is plain,
  Who'll counsel and fight for his children again.
  We believe in his Son Jesus Christ, who in love,
  For his brothers and sisters, came down from above;
  To die to redeem them from death, and to teach,
  To mortals and spirits the Gospel we preach.

Also if you have a hymnbook handy, look at Hymn #51...

[creator]

Wow, what an observation, nice catch. Excited to get home to read and study those passages/sections/verses with those 'glasses' on

At some point I will post a bunch of additional insights I've found in reading these stories, stuff that wasn't mentioned in the information I got growing up in the Church.

[creator]

Old Hymn:

• We believe in our God, the great Prince of his race,
  The Archangel, Michael, the Ancient of Days,
  Our own Father Adam, earth's Lord as is plain,
  Who'll counsel and fight for his children again.
  We believe in his Son Jesus Christ, who in love,
  For his brothers and sisters, came down from above;
  To die to redeem them from death, and to teach,
  To mortals and spirits the Gospel we preach.

Also if you have a hymnbook handy, look at Hymn #51...

That is interesting. To be clear, I wasn't posting the "Adam is the Lord" theory for the purpose of "Adam-God" discussion. There are a few different theories this could fit into.

[Luke]

Old Hymn:

• We believe in our God, the great Prince of his race,
  The Archangel, Michael, the Ancient of Days,
  Our own Father Adam, earth's Lord as is plain,
  Who'll counsel and fight for his children again.
  We believe in his Son Jesus Christ, who in love,
  For his brothers and sisters, came down from above;
  To die to redeem them from death, and to teach,
  To mortals and spirits the Gospel we preach.

Also if you have a hymnbook handy, look at Hymn #51...

That is interesting. To be clear, I wasn't posting the "Adam is the Lord" theory for the purpose of "Adam-God" discussion. There are a few different theories this could fit into.

Yeah don’t worry, and yes there are ways it can fit into multiple ideas

[mcusick]

I enjoy studying the Creation & Garden story and considering the symbolic meaning behind it. There is so much depth to it beyond a literal meaning. I wanted to see what you think about this theory...

So, the theory is that Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4.

In Genesis 3, it was always the "Lord God" speaking to Adam and Eve (while they were in the Garden).

In Genesis 4, after leaving the Garden, there are several references to "Lord" but not "Lord God". There are few references to "Adam" and no interaction between Adam and God or the Lord. All of Cain and Abel's interactions with the "Lord" are the type of interactions that you'd be more likely to have with your own Father, not a God whose presence you had been separated from.

Before Cain murdered Abel, he was already not on a good path. "Cain loved Satan more than God".

Adam had previously been given dominion over the lower level creations. As a son of God, he could be considered the Lord in this context. He was also taught the Gospel, given the knowledge of God, and told to preach it to his family. Everything about his status on the earth at that time and the interactions in Genesis 4 / Moses 5, in my opinion, make more sense that Adam is the Lord being referred to.

For a while in my mind, I've imagined Adam speaking the words of the Lord through revelation to Cain. Similar idea.

There are other parallels: Adam is driven out from the garden and God; Cain is driven out from society and Adam. In dramatic form, the stories may teach about gradations of glory.

[Silver Pie]

In Genesis 4, after leaving the Garden, there are several references to "Lord" but not "Lord God". There are few references to "Adam" and no interaction between Adam and God or the Lord. All of Cain and Abel's interactions with the "Lord" are the type of interactions that you'd be more likely to have with your own Father, not a God whose presence you had been separated from.

This is fascinating. I had never thought of this before. So, are you saying that the one who warned Cain about sin, then called him on murdering Abel could have been Adam? (I haven't read the PoGP for a while, and my memory's rusty on whether it was the Lord, or the Lord God who talked to him.)

[Silver Pie]

There are other parallels: Adam is driven out from the garden and God; Cain is driven out from society and Adam. In dramatic form, the stories may teach about gradations of glory.

I had never thought of this. Something to really think about (and I wonder how many other parallels we/I miss that are out there in plain sight).

[creator]

This is fascinating. I had never thought of this before. So, are you saying that the one who warned Cain about sin, then called him on murdering Abel could have been Adam? (I haven't read the PoGP for a while, and my memory's rusty on whether it was the Lord, or the Lord God who talked to him.)

Read the chapter. No doubt about it. Adam IS referred to as the Lord in that chapter.

[Silver Pie]

Read the chapter. No doubt about it. Adam IS referred to as the Lord in that chapter.

Cain went out from the presence of the Lord
Gen 4:16

Interesting. Cain was never in the presence of God because his parents got kicked out from God's presence before he was conceived. This strengthens your view, imo.

So, now I'm wondering about the mark the Lord set upon Cain. A tattoo? A brand (like we brand cattle)? A piercing? There's no way Adam could have changed the skin color of Cain and his descendants (which reminds me of the thread saying that the "blackness" in the OT and BoM are not talking about skin color at all).

[Silver Pie]

What about Moses 5:16?

Cain said, "Who is the Lord that I should know him?"

Do you think this is colored by Joseph Smith's belief that "Lord" in Genesis is God, so he didn't write "Lord God"? Or something else?

[Luke]

Moses 6:59 and Ether 3:16 prove Adam-God

[Luke]

What about Moses 5:16?

Cain said, "Who is the Lord that I should know him?"

Do you think this is colored by Joseph Smith's belief that "Lord" in Genesis is God, so he didn't write "Lord God"? Or something else?

Interesting point, and I would throw in this quote to the mix as well:

• “After the deed was done, the Lord enquired for Abel, and made Cain own what he had done with him. Now says the grandfather, I will not destroy the seed of Michael and his wife, and Cain I will not kill you, nor suffer anyone else to kill you, but I will put a mark upon you.” (Manuscript Addresses of Brigham Young, 5 February 1852)

[Silver Pie]

Moses 6:59 and Ether 3:16 prove Adam-God

6:59

That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

3:16

Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

I don't see that. I see that Adam had to be baptized, and the symbolism was explained to him. In the second scripture, I see Jesus appearing to the brother of Jared, and telling him that "what I look like now is what I will look like when I get a body."

There is nothing there to even hint to me that Adam was God before he was born.

[Silver Pie]

Because of Luke's reply, I went to Strong's numbers to see what it said about the word "Lord" in Genesis 4:16. This is what it said:

Word: DEDI

Pronounce: yeh-ho-vaw'

Strong: H3068

Orig: from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--Jehovah, the Lord. Compare 3050, 3069. H1961 H3050 H3069

Use: TWOT-484a Proper Name

Grk Strong: G1203 G2316 G2962

Jehovah = "the existing One"

1) the proper name of the one true God
1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of H136

Source: http://www.godrules.net/library/kjvstro ... gsgen4.htm

So, now I'm not so sure - because Strong's numbers are a really good study guide to help one understand the scriptures.

4:16 And Cain 7014 went out 3318 8799 from the presence 6440 of the LORD 3068, and dwelt 3427 8799 in the land 776 of Nod 5113, on the east 6926 of Eden 5731.

[creator]

Strong's numbers are a really good study guide to help one understand the scriptures.

I agree. And still I would make the same point from my original post. Also, I'm not necessarily trying to make the same points or conclusions as Luke. It would be difficult to put my full perspective into a post. We all experience the world so differently, it's not always easy to communicate the things we understand.

[Silver Pie]

I agree. And still I would make the same point from my original post.

Okay

Also, I'm not necessarily trying to make the same points or conclusions as Luke.

I did clearly understand that.

It would be difficult to put my full perspective into a post. We all experience the world so differently, it's not always easy to communicate the things we understand.

True. We really do. I can understand this dilemma.

[ParticleMan]

On biblical Hebrew and Greek, Mounce's is said to be better than Strong's, plus other recommendations:

https://benspackman.com/2021/01/01/quic ... -at-logos/

[Silver Pie]

On biblical Hebrew and Greek, Mounce's is said to be better than Strong's, plus other recommendations:

https://benspackman.com/2021/01/01/quic ... -at-logos/

I only see Greek on his website. https://www.billmounce.com/

This site has Mounce on the sidebar of Genesis 4:16, but only has Adam, Brother, and Man as entries (so no definition of Lord). https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV

[ParticleMan]

On biblical Hebrew and Greek, Mounce's is said to be better than Strong's, plus other recommendations:

https://benspackman.com/2021/01/01/quic ... -at-logos/

I only see Greek on his website. https://www.billmounce.com/

The article references "Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words":
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0310248787

[Luke]

Moses 6:59 and Ether 3:16 prove Adam-God

6:59

That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

3:16

Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

I don't see that. I see that Adam had to be baptized, and the symbolism was explained to him. In the second scripture, I see Jesus appearing to the brother of Jared, and telling him that "what I look like now is what I will look like when I get a body."

There is nothing there to even hint to me that Adam was God before he was born.

Sorry, I should have explained in my post. Here's why it proves Adam-God

• Moses 6
  
  59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

This Scripture clearly establishes that to "become of dust a living soul" actually means to be born of blood, spirit and water. Thus, we conclude that Adam and Eve HAD to be born. And they were not born on this world, because there was no-one here to give birth to them (if anyone thinks HF and HM gave birth to Adam and Eve, this is impossible, because Moses 6:59 quite clearly says this "dust" creation includes being born of blood, which Celestial beings do not have). Thus, we must conclude that Adam and Eve were born on another world, hence having their resurrected bodies before they came here (see 1 Corinthians 15 which tells us that to have an immortal body, you must have a mortal one first, which confirms what I'm saying)

• Ether 3
  
  16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

So, according to this, Jesus did not have a physical body before He came to this earth

From these two Scriptures we learn that:

1. Adam DID had a body before coming to this earth
2. Jesus DID NOT have a body before coming to this earth

Conclusion: Adam is ahead of Jesus in progression, and we reasonably conclude that Adam-God is a true doctrine