Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5

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Silver Pie
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5

Post by Silver Pie »

ParticleMan wrote: January 11th, 2021, 7:46 pm The article references "Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words":
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0310248787
Obviously I didn't catch that. Thank you.

Luke wrote: January 12th, 2021, 12:25 pm Sorry, I should have explained in my post. Here's why it proves Adam-God
I appreciate you explaining your reasoning.

My own view tends to lean toward the heavenly parents coming to earth, eating the food growing here, and having children.

More specifically, I was exposed to an idea where the heavenly parents had Eve, and Jehovah [Jesus] and his wife had Adam (though I disagree with the reasoning that goes with it. The reasoning is that Eve had to be born to the heavenly Mother because, otherwise, she would not have been able to bear children. By that same reasoning, Adam would have had to have been born with heavenly Father as his father or he would not have been able to father children. - Besides that, if the theory is true, it's obvious that Jehovah's wife bore a child, so there's nothing to keep an Eve born to them from being fertile and bearing her own children).

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ransomme
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5

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Luke wrote: January 12th, 2021, 12:25 pm
From these two Scriptures we learn that:

1. Adam DID had a body before coming to this earth
2. Jesus DID NOT have a body before coming to this earth

Conclusion: Adam is ahead of Jesus in progression, and we reasonably conclude that Adam-God is a true doctrine
I don't think the means that Adam is ahead per se. The example of the Holy Ghost shows that a spirit can be a god, especially as he is a member of the Godhead. Also, consider that Michael reported to Jehovah in the pre-mortal existence, therefore Christ is ahead and they are a part of the same creation.

That said, I do think that most likely Adam was first from another planet and then was "placed" in the Garden. But what does that mean exactly? What if there is a seed planet that is used to populate God's creations? A place where the first spirits may be born and then placed...

Also, how did Jehovah and the H.G. earn their status? Chosen? Called? Anointed? Via works? And so on... Because Michael participated in creation does that put him on a god-level?

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Luke
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5

Post by Luke »

ransomme wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 1:02 pm Also, consider that Michael reported to Jehovah in the pre-mortal existence, so I don't think that he is ahead.
I don't believe that Jehovah is Jesus. Neither did Joseph or Brigham

Look at what Joseph taught concerning keys:
  • “Adam [holds] the keys of the universe . . .” (Joseph Smith, TPJS 157, 2 July 1839)
  • “Jesus Christ . . . holds the keys over all this world.” (Joseph Smith, TPJS 323, 27 August 1843)
Which is greater? The world or the universe?

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Alexander
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5

Post by Alexander »

Luke wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 1:06 pm
ransomme wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 1:02 pm Also, consider that Michael reported to Jehovah in the pre-mortal existence, so I don't think that he is ahead.
I don't believe that Jehovah is Jesus. Neither did Joseph or Brigham

Look at what Joseph taught concerning keys:
  • “Adam [holds] the keys of the universe . . .” (Joseph Smith, TPJS 157, 2 July 1839)
  • “Jesus Christ . . . holds the keys over all this world.” (Joseph Smith, TPJS 323, 27 August 1843)
Which is greater? The world or the universe?
Yahweh/Jehovah has always existed, because the order of the GODs (Elohim) continues for all eternity, from everlasting to everlasting, eon to eon, one eternal round to one eternal round. אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה ("Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh", I am that I am)

"Yahweh" or Jehovah simply means "Yah Who is" or "Yah, He Who exists".

יהוה‎‏
yod heh vav heh

Yahweh--YHVH in Hebrew. These four letters are referred to as the Tetragrammatan. Each letter came to represent in Kabbalistic theology a distinct familial aspect of Deity: Y (Yod) representing Deity as Father; H (Heh) representing Deity as Mother; V (Vau) representing Deity as Son; and the second H (Heh) representing Deity as Daughter.

In paleo-hebrew we see power and symbology in this archaic meaning.

יהוה‎‏
yod heh vav heh

י yod- hand
ה heh- behold
ו vau- nail
ה heh- behold

Jesus proclaims that he is Yah, or I Am, because he has done the will of the Father. He has condescended to bear the sins of the world to fulfill the atonement, so that man might be saved. This healing is shown in his hands which hold the marks of his sacrifice. Therefore Jesus is Jehovah.

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Luke
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5

Post by Luke »

Alexander wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 1:18 pm
Luke wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 1:06 pm
ransomme wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 1:02 pm Also, consider that Michael reported to Jehovah in the pre-mortal existence, so I don't think that he is ahead.
I don't believe that Jehovah is Jesus. Neither did Joseph or Brigham

Look at what Joseph taught concerning keys:
  • “Adam [holds] the keys of the universe . . .” (Joseph Smith, TPJS 157, 2 July 1839)
  • “Jesus Christ . . . holds the keys over all this world.” (Joseph Smith, TPJS 323, 27 August 1843)
Which is greater? The world or the universe?
Yahweh/Jehovah has always existed, because the order of the GODs (Elohim) continues for all eternity, from everlasting to everlasting, eon to eon, one eternal round to one eternal round. אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה ("Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh", I am that I am)

"Yahweh" or Jehovah simply means "Yah Who is" or "Yah, He Who exists".

יהוה‎‏
yod heh vav heh

Yahweh--YHVH in Hebrew. These four letters are referred to as the Tetragrammatan. Each letter came to represent in Kabbalistic theology a distinct familial aspect of Deity: Y (Yod) representing Deity as Father; H (Heh) representing Deity as Mother; V (Vau) representing Deity as Son; and the second H (Heh) representing Deity as Daughter.

In paleo-hebrew we see power and symbology in this archaic meaning.

יהוה‎‏
yod heh vav heh

י yod- hand
ה heh- behold
ו vau- nail
ה heh- behold

Jesus proclaims that he is Yah, or I Am, because he has done the will of the Father. He has condescended to bear the sins of the world to fulfill the atonement, so that man might be saved. This healing is shown in his hands which hold the marks of his sacrifice. Therefore Jesus is Jehovah.
Yes I agree with this 100%. Jehovah is a name-title which many deities possess, Jesus being one of them

However, ransomme was clearly talking about the character Jehovah who is the second member of the Eloheim/Jehovah/Michael Trinity as taught in the Temple

This Jehovah is not Jesus. In fact, in the original endowment, this Jehovah and Jesus were two separate characters

This is what I was trying to say

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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5

Post by abijah` »

The Creator wrote: December 10th, 2020, 1:01 pm So, the theory is that Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4.

In Genesis 3, it was always the "Lord God" speaking to Adam and Eve (while they were in the Garden).
Right, in Genesis 2-3 its always "YHWH`Elohim" who's being referred to.

Whereas in Genesis 1 its simply "Elohim".

And then Genesis 4 comes along, the "Elohim" part gets dropped, and its simply "YHWH". and mysteriously no mention of Adam, as you pointed out.. 🤔Interesting how Genesis 4 presents "the LORD" as basically doing Adam's job anyway, innit? He's essentially functioning in the parenting capacity throughout the whole Cain & Abel narrative, the sole operative patriarchal figure in the situation... 🤔 🤔

If there's indeed truth to the speculation that the Godhead = (1) God the Father, (2) Jehovah/Jesus, and (3) Michael/Adam, then it would seem to corroborate this progression from (1) Gen1 "Elohim" (God the Father), into (2) Gen2-3 as "YHWH`Elohim" (Jehovah/Jesus), and then in (3) Gen4, simply "YHWH" (Michael/Adam).

Additionally it could make sense that the "elohim" part would be dropped in mortal Adam's case because he was no longer an elohim - "elohim" being a creature distinct from man, a specific class of beings:
So perhaps maybe Adam still retained (before Abel dies) his name-title of "LORD", but having lost his "elohim" status, resultant of either the spirit of Michael being blown into the nostrils of Adam, or resultant of his expulsion from the garden and God's presence.

Then again, all of this might otherwise align with the theory posited in this video:
Peeps wrote: October 12th, 2021, 2:55 pm Again, please just watch this video starting at 22:32.

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Alexander
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5

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I find it interesting that titles attributed to God, are also used for Adam/Michael, i.e. "Ancient of Days", and "Man of Holiness".

One like the Son of Man, or Son Ahman approaches the Ancient of Days at Adam ondi Ahman.

"Daniel in his seventh chapter speaks of the Ancient of Days; he means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael; he will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man. … The Son of Man stands before him, and there is given him glory and dominion."

“Ahman” meant “the first man or first God” and “Ahman Christ” meant “the first mans son.”

Jesus Christ, the Son of God is the “Son Ah Man".

Is Ahman Adam/Michael?

The title "Michael" means "one who is like God", "Who's God?", and/or "What's God Like".

“And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;”


And Christ is the Second (last) Adam, Michael being the first Adam (1 Corinthians 15).

🤨

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Luke
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5

Post by Luke »

Alexander wrote: November 13th, 2021, 5:04 pm I find it interesting that titles attributed to God, are also used for Adam/Michael, i.e. "Ancient of Days", and "Man of Holiness".

One like the Son of Man, or Son Ahman approaches the Ancient of Days at Adam ondi Ahman.

"Daniel in his seventh chapter speaks of the Ancient of Days; he means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael; he will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man. … The Son of Man stands before him, and there is given him glory and dominion."

“Ahman” meant “the first man or first God” and “Ahman Christ” meant “the first mans son.”

Jesus Christ, the Son of God is the “Son Ah Man".

Is Ahman Adam/Michael?

The title "Michael" means "one who is like God", "Who's God?", and/or "What's God Like".

“And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;”


And Christ is the Second (last) Adam, Michael being the first Adam (1 Corinthians 15).

🤨
Adam is our Father in Heaven! I testify that it is true.

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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5

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Alexander wrote: November 13th, 2021, 5:04 pm I find it interesting that titles attributed to God, are also used for Adam/Michael, i.e. "Ancient of Days", and "Man of Holiness".

One like the Son of Man, or Son Ahman approaches the Ancient of Days at Adam ondi Ahman.

"Daniel in his seventh chapter speaks of the Ancient of Days; he means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael; he will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man. … The Son of Man stands before him, and there is given him glory and dominion."

“Ahman” meant “the first man or first God” and “Ahman Christ” meant “the first mans son.”

Jesus Christ, the Son of God is the “Son Ah Man".

Is Ahman Adam/Michael?

The title "Michael" means "one who is like God", "Who's God?", and/or "What's God Like".

“And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;”


And Christ is the Second (last) Adam, Michael being the first Adam (1 Corinthians 15).

🤨
Though we don't know, and I may be wrong, yet I've felt that both Melchizedek and the Savior being The Prince of Peace was the Lord's way of saying I incarnated as Melchizedek.

The sharing of names with Adam may be our hint that Jesus came down first, leading by example, as all good leaders do.

I've always been different though for actually believing the BoM that Jesus is both the Father and the Son.

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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5

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I think this is a very interesting video regarding "who's who" in the creation accounts we have in Genesis, Moses, Abraham, and the Endowment Ceremony:
It's very interesting because "the Lord" in the Bible almost invariably refers to YHWH, anglicized as Jehovah (most other instances of "the Lord" mean "Adonai" which is "Master" or "Sovereign"). Jehovah is an interesting term which is usually translated as "I am that I am" or "I am he who exists." This is a term that can apply (and really has been applied) to every member of the Godhead, including Elohim, Jehovah, Michael, and Jesus Christ. Adam has often been referred to as "the Lord of this earth," and with propriety too, considering His pivotal role in organizing and populating it. The role of the Fall is of coequal importance to that of the Atonement. In reality, when we consider the premortal standing of Adam & Eve, it is clear that they willingly fell in order to sacrifice their eternal life and immortality—essentially sacrificing their lives for their posterity, and dying so that we might live and become like them.

Joseph Smith also taught that the Fall of Adam & Eve was not a sin:
Joseph said in answer to Mr [Hosea] Stout that Adam Did Not Comit sin in [e]ating the fruits for God had Decred that he should Eat & fall--But in complyance with the Decree he should Die--only he should Die was the saying of the Lord therefore the Lord apointed us to fall & also Redeemed us--for where sin a bounded Grace did Much more a bound--for Paul says Rom--5. 10 for if--when were enemys we were Reconciled to God by the Death of his Son, much more, being Reconciled, we shall be saved by his Life--

(Words of Joseph Smith, p. 63)
This makes sense, considering that Eve's intention was honest and noble. She only desired to become more like her God in partaking of the fruit. And Adam did not want to forsake his wife to die alone, without him (which would also violate his commandment to multiply and replenish the earth).

The idea of Christ as both Father and Son has also been a riddle to many people, as He is referred to with both titles, in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine & Covenants. However, this does not mean that Christ is God the Father, for He repeatedly mentions and distinguishes Himself from the Father throughout 3 Nephi as well as the New Testament. Christ's role as both Father and Son pertains to the spiritual creation of the earth, and His distinctive title as "the Lord of Hosts" (hosts means spirits). God the Father is also justly considered the Father of all spirits, but essentially they both played a crucial role in the birth and organization of our spiritual bodies. This is something that is best understood through much prayer and careful study of the creation accounts.

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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5

Post by TheDuke »

Even saying God the Father is the father of all our spirits, is likely a title or position. Jesus is begotten "of" the Father and we are begotten "to" or "unto" the Father, leaving open that he may be our father in this creation but not the literal father of our spirits (or celestial bodies as spirits in some sort are co-eternal with the Father).

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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5

Post by The Airbender »

The Creator wrote: December 10th, 2020, 1:01 pm I enjoy studying the Creation & Garden story and considering the symbolic meaning behind it. There is so much depth to it beyond a literal meaning. I wanted to see what you think about this theory...

So, the theory is that Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4.

In Genesis 3, it was always the "Lord God" speaking to Adam and Eve (while they were in the Garden).

In Genesis 4, after leaving the Garden, there are several references to "Lord" but not "Lord God". There are few references to "Adam" and no interaction between Adam and God or the Lord. All of Cain and Abel's interactions with the "Lord" are the type of interactions that you'd be more likely to have with your own Father, not a God whose presence you had been separated from.

Before Cain murdered Abel, he was already not on a good path. "Cain loved Satan more than God".

Adam had previously been given dominion over the lower level creations. As a son of God, he could be considered the Lord in this context. He was also taught the Gospel, given the knowledge of God, and told to preach it to his family. Everything about his status on the earth at that time and the interactions in Genesis 4 / Moses 5, in my opinion, make more sense that Adam is the Lord being referred to.
I mean, wasn't he made Lord over the whole earth?

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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5

Post by Robin Hood »

I remember reading on this forum (I can't recall the name of the poster) that the angel that appeared in Gethsemane to strengthen and comfort Jesus was Michael. This immediately struck me as true.

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ParticleMan
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5

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"We know that an angel came from the courts of glory to strengthen him in his ordeal, and we suppose it was mighty Michael, who foremost fell that mortal man might be."

Bruce R. McConkie, The Purifying Power of Gethsemane

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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5

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Ironically, even though Elder McConkie was vehemently against the Adam-God Doctrine, the above statement from him is to me, one of the most beautiful statements proving its truthfulness and authenticity.

We often ask, "where was Heavenly Father when Jesus Christ suffered and bled for our sins? Was He hiding in some distant corner of the universe, trying to contain His grief? Was He watching in tears from afar? Was He doing His utmost to contain His wrath against us for causing His Beloved Son such anguish?"

The answer is, He stood right next to His Beloved Son Jesus, embraced Him, and comforted Him—wiping away His tears, knowing that He had once endured something like this.

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abijah
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Re: Theory: Adam is the Lord referred to in Genesis 4 / Moses 5

Post by abijah »

creator wrote: December 10th, 2020, 1:01 pmSo, the theory is that Adam is "the LORD" referred to in Genesis 4.
Isaiah 63
16 Doubtless thou art our father, though `Abraham` be ignorant of us, and `Israel` acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

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