Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

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Luke
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Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by Luke »

Quite a few months ago, I posted this quote by Brigham Young
  • “Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people. Then God will raise the one mighty and strong, spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants, to save and redeem this Church.”
Immediately the hounding begun. "FAKE QUOTE FAKE QUOTE" and the like

Apparently the reason it's false is because it's cited in Truth Magazine years later, and the publishers of Truth use the term "85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants", and the version of D&C that we have now is different to the edition used back in 1867. Therefore, they concluded, it's a made up quote, as Section 85 was not what it is now. Well they need to understand that the phrase "spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants" was added in to the paraphrase by a guy called John T. Clark in 1922, in his book "One Mighty and Strong", on page 106. So clearly this is not the original source. So what is the original source? Are there any contemporary accounts, and not hearsay?

Well get a load of this. Not only did Brigham Young make this statement, but here we have definite proof he did. Check out this entry from Joseph Musser's Journal:
  • "Daniel R. Peay of Provo . . . Also told of hearing Joshua Jones of Provo (now dead) tell of hearing Brigham Young say, 'The time will come when this people are lead onto the very brink of apostacy.' Jones made an entry of it in his Journal. Speech was made in the old Bowery in Provo." (Joseph Musser's Journal, 18 September 1938)
Musser here informs us that there IS a contemporary source, which was Joshua Jones, who recorded it in his journal at the time

I bet a transcription or copy of that Journal entry is in among this collection, which is usually cited as the reference for this quote (including by Wagoner in his "Complete Discourses of Brigham Young"):
  • Provo Bowery Conference, August 24th, 1867; [BX 8693 .C559 C547o, Americana Collection, L. Tom Perry Special Collections, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah], pg. 106
I believe it is time for all the naysayers to concede. Brigham Young did indeed say that the Church would be led into apostasy, and there is contemporary evidence to prove it

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Luke
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by Luke »

Btw, before anyone starts with the semantics -- "but Brigham said the brink of apostasy..."

Three things

1. The quote still says that the people are being led off course
2. This is possibly another paraphrase (not the actual journal entry itself), so this cannot be used as a verbatim report of what Brigham said
3. This could very well mean that we could be on the brink of a great apostasy style apostasy

Either way, Brigham did indeed comment on the apostate situation of the Saints today

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Robin Hood
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by Robin Hood »

Luke wrote: October 6th, 2020, 2:45 pm Quite a few months ago, I posted this quote by Brigham Young
  • “Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people. Then God will raise the one mighty and strong, spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants, to save and redeem this Church.”
Immediately the hounding begun. "FAKE QUOTE FAKE QUOTE" and the like

Apparently the reason it's false is because it's cited in Truth Magazine years later, and the publishers of Truth use the term "85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants", and the version of D&C that we have now is different to the edition used back in 1867. Therefore, they concluded, it's a made up quote, as Section 85 was not what it is now. Well they need to understand that the phrase "spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants" was added in to the paraphrase by a guy called John T. Clark in 1922, in his book "One Mighty and Strong", on page 106. So clearly this is not the original source. So what is the original source? Are there any contemporary accounts, and not hearsay?

Well get a load of this. Not only did Brigham Young make this statement, but here we have definite proof he did. Check out this entry from Joseph Musser's Journal:
  • "Daniel R. Peay of Provo . . . Also told of hearing Joshua Jones of Provo (now dead) tell of hearing Brigham Young say, 'The time will come when this people are lead onto the very brink of apostacy.' Jones made an entry of it in his Journal. Speech was made in the old Bowery in Provo." (Joseph Musser's Journal, 18 September 1938)
Musser here informs us that there IS a contemporary source, which was Joshua Jones, who recorded it in his journal at the time

I bet a transcription or copy of that Journal entry is in among this collection, which is usually cited as the reference for this quote (including by Wagoner in his "Complete Discourses of Brigham Young"):
  • Provo Bowery Conference, August 24th, 1867; [BX 8693 .C559 C547o, Americana Collection, L. Tom Perry Special Collections, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah], pg. 106
I believe it is time for all the naysayers to concede. Brigham Young did indeed say that the Church would be led into apostasy, and there is contemporary evidence to prove it
While I have no problem with the concept of Brigham making this prediction, you must be aware of the problem here.
We've got Joseph Musser saying he heard Daniel R. Reay saying he heard Joshua Jones saying he heard Brigham Young....
This is third hand hearsay at best, and cannot be considered contemporary.

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Luke
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by Luke »

Robin Hood wrote: October 6th, 2020, 3:15 pm
Luke wrote: October 6th, 2020, 2:45 pm Quite a few months ago, I posted this quote by Brigham Young
  • “Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people. Then God will raise the one mighty and strong, spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants, to save and redeem this Church.”
Immediately the hounding begun. "FAKE QUOTE FAKE QUOTE" and the like

Apparently the reason it's false is because it's cited in Truth Magazine years later, and the publishers of Truth use the term "85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants", and the version of D&C that we have now is different to the edition used back in 1867. Therefore, they concluded, it's a made up quote, as Section 85 was not what it is now. Well they need to understand that the phrase "spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants" was added in to the paraphrase by a guy called John T. Clark in 1922, in his book "One Mighty and Strong", on page 106. So clearly this is not the original source. So what is the original source? Are there any contemporary accounts, and not hearsay?

Well get a load of this. Not only did Brigham Young make this statement, but here we have definite proof he did. Check out this entry from Joseph Musser's Journal:
  • "Daniel R. Peay of Provo . . . Also told of hearing Joshua Jones of Provo (now dead) tell of hearing Brigham Young say, 'The time will come when this people are lead onto the very brink of apostacy.' Jones made an entry of it in his Journal. Speech was made in the old Bowery in Provo." (Joseph Musser's Journal, 18 September 1938)
Musser here informs us that there IS a contemporary source, which was Joshua Jones, who recorded it in his journal at the time

I bet a transcription or copy of that Journal entry is in among this collection, which is usually cited as the reference for this quote (including by Wagoner in his "Complete Discourses of Brigham Young"):
  • Provo Bowery Conference, August 24th, 1867; [BX 8693 .C559 C547o, Americana Collection, L. Tom Perry Special Collections, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah], pg. 106
I believe it is time for all the naysayers to concede. Brigham Young did indeed say that the Church would be led into apostasy, and there is contemporary evidence to prove it
While I have no problem with the concept of Brigham making this prediction, you must be aware of the problem here.
We've got Joseph Musser saying he heard Daniel R. Reay saying he heard Joshua Jones saying he heard Brigham Young....
This is third hand hearsay at best.
I’m focusing on Musser’s remark where he says “Jones recorded it in his journal”

In my view, that’s proof that contemporary evidence exists for this quote. However, finding the original journal will probably never happen, it’s kept in the First Presidency vaults most likely...

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Robin Hood
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by Robin Hood »

Luke wrote: October 6th, 2020, 3:16 pm
Robin Hood wrote: October 6th, 2020, 3:15 pm
Luke wrote: October 6th, 2020, 2:45 pm Quite a few months ago, I posted this quote by Brigham Young
  • “Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people. Then God will raise the one mighty and strong, spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants, to save and redeem this Church.”
Immediately the hounding begun. "FAKE QUOTE FAKE QUOTE" and the like

Apparently the reason it's false is because it's cited in Truth Magazine years later, and the publishers of Truth use the term "85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants", and the version of D&C that we have now is different to the edition used back in 1867. Therefore, they concluded, it's a made up quote, as Section 85 was not what it is now. Well they need to understand that the phrase "spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants" was added in to the paraphrase by a guy called John T. Clark in 1922, in his book "One Mighty and Strong", on page 106. So clearly this is not the original source. So what is the original source? Are there any contemporary accounts, and not hearsay?

Well get a load of this. Not only did Brigham Young make this statement, but here we have definite proof he did. Check out this entry from Joseph Musser's Journal:
  • "Daniel R. Peay of Provo . . . Also told of hearing Joshua Jones of Provo (now dead) tell of hearing Brigham Young say, 'The time will come when this people are lead onto the very brink of apostacy.' Jones made an entry of it in his Journal. Speech was made in the old Bowery in Provo." (Joseph Musser's Journal, 18 September 1938)
Musser here informs us that there IS a contemporary source, which was Joshua Jones, who recorded it in his journal at the time

I bet a transcription or copy of that Journal entry is in among this collection, which is usually cited as the reference for this quote (including by Wagoner in his "Complete Discourses of Brigham Young"):
  • Provo Bowery Conference, August 24th, 1867; [BX 8693 .C559 C547o, Americana Collection, L. Tom Perry Special Collections, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah], pg. 106
I believe it is time for all the naysayers to concede. Brigham Young did indeed say that the Church would be led into apostasy, and there is contemporary evidence to prove it
While I have no problem with the concept of Brigham making this prediction, you must be aware of the problem here.
We've got Joseph Musser saying he heard Daniel R. Reay saying he heard Joshua Jones saying he heard Brigham Young....
This is third hand hearsay at best.
I’m focusing on Musser’s remark where he says “Jones recorded it in his journal”

In my view, that’s proof that contemporary evidence exists for this quote. However, finding the original journal will probably never happen, it’s kept in the First Presidency vaults most likely...
Ok yes, I see your point.

JSmith
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by JSmith »

Luke wrote: October 6th, 2020, 2:45 pm Quite a few months ago, I posted this quote by Brigham Young
  • “Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people. Then God will raise the one mighty and strong, spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants, to save and redeem this Church.”
Immediately the hounding begun. "FAKE QUOTE FAKE QUOTE" and the like

Apparently the reason it's false is because it's cited in Truth Magazine years later, and the publishers of Truth use the term "85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants", and the version of D&C that we have now is different to the edition used back in 1867. Therefore, they concluded, it's a made up quote, as Section 85 was not what it is now. Well they need to understand that the phrase "spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants" was added in to the paraphrase by a guy called John T. Clark in 1922, in his book "One Mighty and Strong", on page 106. So clearly this is not the original source. So what is the original source? Are there any contemporary accounts, and not hearsay?

Well get a load of this. Not only did Brigham Young make this statement, but here we have definite proof he did. Check out this entry from Joseph Musser's Journal:
  • "Daniel R. Peay of Provo . . . Also told of hearing Joshua Jones of Provo (now dead) tell of hearing Brigham Young say, 'The time will come when this people are lead onto the very brink of apostacy.' Jones made an entry of it in his Journal. Speech was made in the old Bowery in Provo." (Joseph Musser's Journal, 18 September 1938)
Musser here informs us that there IS a contemporary source, which was Joshua Jones, who recorded it in his journal at the time

I bet a transcription or copy of that Journal entry is in among this collection, which is usually cited as the reference for this quote (including by Wagoner in his "Complete Discourses of Brigham Young"):
  • Provo Bowery Conference, August 24th, 1867; [BX 8693 .C559 C547o, Americana Collection, L. Tom Perry Special Collections, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah], pg. 106
I believe it is time for all the naysayers to concede. Brigham Young did indeed say that the Church would be led into apostasy, and there is contemporary evidence to prove it
Luke, I actually think you have actually reinforced its spurious status.


what you have is further indication that the quote is spurious, not a evidence of fact. Think about it “Daniel of Provo, was told by Joshua that at some point in time he heard Young say something” to that effect.

So you have a second hand account reporting on a claim that a first hand account existed. That’s not evidence. That is how the game of “spiritual telephone” creates so much spurious garbage in LDS circles

While the quote claims that that this info was entered into a journal. That may be speculation, on behalf of the speaker. There is no proof of the claim.

Now if the journal does show up and it is written in there, then you have a single claim. Not a corroborated claim. So it would still be suspect.

This “gotcha-ism” style thinking here is dangerous because it is the ground on which false doctrine and false expectations are based. This is how people get let astray. It is in fact a unproven spurious comment and the evidence you have laid out here only reinforce the fact that it is secondhand at best and therefore unreliable.

this is similar the claim that Brigham Young said that Moroni sanctified the Manti temple site, which is also suspect.
As far as I know Research into that claim found that Young never said such a thing. It’s not even in the Manti temple prayer of dedication, or any of the contemporary documents.

in none – none – of these sources is there any hint whatsoever of an ancient dedication of the temple site, no mention of Moroni, nothing that could be seen as supporting the story, although the story, if true, would have found a natural place in any of these records.

Like your quote, this one is single source story that was recorded by a Bishop Warren Snow , who claimed that Brigham confided in in him when they were alone. But this claim was made after the fact and it became well known and often repeated moment for folklore. Like the quote you have listed in your OP

LDS culture is filled with these pseudepigraphal tidbits, while they appeal to people’s confirmation bias and emotional millennial views, most are false or at best half true without corroboration

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Robin Hood
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by Robin Hood »

JSmith wrote: October 6th, 2020, 3:40 pm
Luke wrote: October 6th, 2020, 2:45 pm Quite a few months ago, I posted this quote by Brigham Young
  • “Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people. Then God will raise the one mighty and strong, spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants, to save and redeem this Church.”
Immediately the hounding begun. "FAKE QUOTE FAKE QUOTE" and the like

Apparently the reason it's false is because it's cited in Truth Magazine years later, and the publishers of Truth use the term "85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants", and the version of D&C that we have now is different to the edition used back in 1867. Therefore, they concluded, it's a made up quote, as Section 85 was not what it is now. Well they need to understand that the phrase "spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants" was added in to the paraphrase by a guy called John T. Clark in 1922, in his book "One Mighty and Strong", on page 106. So clearly this is not the original source. So what is the original source? Are there any contemporary accounts, and not hearsay?

Well get a load of this. Not only did Brigham Young make this statement, but here we have definite proof he did. Check out this entry from Joseph Musser's Journal:
  • "Daniel R. Peay of Provo . . . Also told of hearing Joshua Jones of Provo (now dead) tell of hearing Brigham Young say, 'The time will come when this people are lead onto the very brink of apostacy.' Jones made an entry of it in his Journal. Speech was made in the old Bowery in Provo." (Joseph Musser's Journal, 18 September 1938)
Musser here informs us that there IS a contemporary source, which was Joshua Jones, who recorded it in his journal at the time

I bet a transcription or copy of that Journal entry is in among this collection, which is usually cited as the reference for this quote (including by Wagoner in his "Complete Discourses of Brigham Young"):
  • Provo Bowery Conference, August 24th, 1867; [BX 8693 .C559 C547o, Americana Collection, L. Tom Perry Special Collections, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah], pg. 106
I believe it is time for all the naysayers to concede. Brigham Young did indeed say that the Church would be led into apostasy, and there is contemporary evidence to prove it
Luke, I actually think you have actually reinforced its spurious status.


what you have is further indication that the quote is spurious, not a evidence of fact. Think about it “Daniel of Provo, was told by Joshua that at some point in time he heard Young say something” to that effect.

So you have a second hand account reporting on a claim that a first hand account existed. That’s not evidence. That is how the game of “spiritual telephone” creates so much spurious garbage in LDS circles

While the quote claims that that this info was entered into a journal. That may be speculation, on behalf of the speaker. There is no proof of the claim.

Now if the journal does show up and it is written in there, then you have a single claim. Not a corroborated claim. So it would still be suspect.

This “gotcha-ism” style thinking here is dangerous because it is the ground on which false doctrine and false expectations are based. This is how people get let astray. It is in fact a unproven spurious comment and the evidence you have laid out here only reinforce the fact that it is secondhand at best and therefore unreliable.

this is similar the claim that Brigham Young said that Moroni sanctified the Manti temple site, which is also suspect.
As far as I know Research into that claim found that Young never said such a thing. It’s not even in the Manti temple prayer of dedication, or any of the contemporary documents.

in none – none – of these sources is there any hint whatsoever of an ancient dedication of the temple site, no mention of Moroni, nothing that could be seen as supporting the story, although the story, if true, would have found a natural place in any of these records.

Like your quote, this one is single source story that was recorded by a Bishop Warren Snow , who claimed that Brigham confided in in him when they were alone. But this claim was made after the fact and it became well known and often repeated moment for folklore. Like the quote you have listed in your OP

LDS culture is filled with these pseudepigraphal tidbits, while they appeal to people’s confirmation bias and emotional millennial views, most are false or at best half true without corroboration
I agree. Although I know what Luke is trying to say, it is tenuous at best.
If a claim of this nature was made regarding polygamy for example, it would likely be dismissed out of hand.

JSmith
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by JSmith »

Luke wrote: October 6th, 2020, 3:16 pm
Robin Hood wrote: October 6th, 2020, 3:15 pm
Luke wrote: October 6th, 2020, 2:45 pm Quite a few months ago, I posted this quote by Brigham Young
  • “Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people. Then God will raise the one mighty and strong, spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants, to save and redeem this Church.”
Immediately the hounding begun. "FAKE QUOTE FAKE QUOTE" and the like

Apparently the reason it's false is because it's cited in Truth Magazine years later, and the publishers of Truth use the term "85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants", and the version of D&C that we have now is different to the edition used back in 1867. Therefore, they concluded, it's a made up quote, as Section 85 was not what it is now. Well they need to understand that the phrase "spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants" was added in to the paraphrase by a guy called John T. Clark in 1922, in his book "One Mighty and Strong", on page 106. So clearly this is not the original source. So what is the original source? Are there any contemporary accounts, and not hearsay?

Well get a load of this. Not only did Brigham Young make this statement, but here we have definite proof he did. Check out this entry from Joseph Musser's Journal:
  • "Daniel R. Peay of Provo . . . Also told of hearing Joshua Jones of Provo (now dead) tell of hearing Brigham Young say, 'The time will come when this people are lead onto the very brink of apostacy.' Jones made an entry of it in his Journal. Speech was made in the old Bowery in Provo." (Joseph Musser's Journal, 18 September 1938)
Musser here informs us that there IS a contemporary source, which was Joshua Jones, who recorded it in his journal at the time

I bet a transcription or copy of that Journal entry is in among this collection, which is usually cited as the reference for this quote (including by Wagoner in his "Complete Discourses of Brigham Young"):
  • Provo Bowery Conference, August 24th, 1867; [BX 8693 .C559 C547o, Americana Collection, L. Tom Perry Special Collections, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah], pg. 106
I believe it is time for all the naysayers to concede. Brigham Young did indeed say that the Church would be led into apostasy, and there is contemporary evidence to prove it
While I have no problem with the concept of Brigham making this prediction, you must be aware of the problem here.
We've got Joseph Musser saying he heard Daniel R. Reay saying he heard Joshua Jones saying he heard Brigham Young....
This is third hand hearsay at best.
I’m focusing on Musser’s remark where he says “Jones recorded it in his journal”

In my view, that’s proof that contemporary evidence exists for this quote. However, finding the original journal will probably never happen, it’s kept in the First Presidency vaults most likely...
That's not proof. that evidence of a claim. he does not say that he ever saw it. Had he seen the entry and read it, it would still be a written, uncorroborated claim.

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Luke
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by Luke »

Read it again everyone

If I told you that contemporary material existed to prove something, at least some of you would believe me. Therefore, in your minds, contemporary evidence exists

Same thing here. Musser says that contemporary evidence exists. I see no reason to doubt that statement. Therefore, our thought should be: contemporary evidence exists

Not to mention the fact that this bolsters the status of the original quote by providing another witness

I'm going to try my best to dig up the original journal from Joshua Jones

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Luke
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by Luke »

JSmith wrote: October 6th, 2020, 3:40 pm Now if the journal does show up and it is written in there, then you have a single claim. Not a corroborated claim. So it would still be suspect.
And here I believe your true reason for not believing that Brigham said this has become obvious: you don't want to believe that the Church may be off the rails

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Robin Hood
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by Robin Hood »

Luke wrote: October 7th, 2020, 1:58 am Read it again everyone

If I told you that contemporary material existed to prove something, at least some of you would believe me. Therefore, in your minds, contemporary evidence exists

Same thing here. Musser says that contemporary evidence exists. I see no reason to doubt that statement. Therefore, our thought should be: contemporary evidence exists

Not to mention the fact that this bolsters the status of the original quote by providing another witness

I'm going to try my best to dig up the original journal from Joshua Jones
Musser had an interest in claiming the church is in apostasy. In fact, he needs that to be true in order to legitimise his position. Then he claims there is some contemporary evidence but doesn't produce it. Says he heard it from someone who claims to have heard it from someone else. Neither of those people claim to have heard Brigham, but some guy did.
This is extremely weak evidence by any standard. In fact it barely constitutes evidence.
Imagine someone posted evidence of this nature to demonstrate that Joseph practiced polygamy. You would dismiss it out of hand, and rightly so.

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Luke
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by Luke »

Robin Hood wrote: October 7th, 2020, 2:20 am
Luke wrote: October 7th, 2020, 1:58 am Read it again everyone

If I told you that contemporary material existed to prove something, at least some of you would believe me. Therefore, in your minds, contemporary evidence exists

Same thing here. Musser says that contemporary evidence exists. I see no reason to doubt that statement. Therefore, our thought should be: contemporary evidence exists

Not to mention the fact that this bolsters the status of the original quote by providing another witness

I'm going to try my best to dig up the original journal from Joshua Jones
Musser had an interest in claiming the church is in apostasy. In fact, he needs that to be true in order to legitimise his position. Then he claims there is some contemporary evidence but doesn't produce it. Says he heard it from someone who claims to have heard it from someone else. Neither of those people claim to have heard Brigham, but some guy did.
This is extremely weak evidence by any standard. In fact it barely constitutes evidence.
Imagine someone posted evidence of this nature to demonstrate that Joseph practiced polygamy. You would dismiss it out of hand, and rightly so.
The only difference between the two is that Joseph denied that he was practicing polygamy, denounced the doctrine, excommunicated polygamists...

While Brigham made many other similar statements and predictions about the apostate condition that we would fall into

In this light, while the idea of Joseph making a pro-polygamy statement is completely suspicious, the idea of Brigham making this statement is extremely likely

Musser says that it was written in Jones' journal. I believe him. I think he saw it

He wasn't trying to prove it to anyone, he just wrote it in his journal. There's no need for him to show the evidence to himself... if he's already seen it

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Luke
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by Luke »

Another witness that Joshua Jones' noted this down in his journal. After paraphrasing Brigham, John T. Clark says:
  • "Attested to by Joshua Jones who made a minute of it at the time and now has it in his diary. He is now (June, 1922) at Provo City, Utah." (John T. Clark, One Mighty and Strong, pg. 106)
That gives us two people who knew Joshua Jones and possibly three who saw it in his journal

The only thing we have to do now is locate the journal itself

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Robin Hood
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by Robin Hood »

Luke wrote: October 7th, 2020, 3:15 am Another witness that Joshua Jones' noted this down in his journal. After paraphrasing Brigham, John T. Clark says:
  • "Attested to by Joshua Jones who made a minute of it at the time and now has it in his diary. He is now (June, 1922) at Provo City, Utah." (John T. Clark, One Mighty and Strong, pg. 106)
That gives us two people who knew Joshua Jones and possibly three who saw it in his journal

The only thing we have to do now is locate the journal itself
Even if it was located and it contained this comment, how would we know it wasn't back-written to suit the Fundamentalist narrative?
We have already established this was a common 19th century practice, especially by those who favoured polygamy.
Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

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Luke
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by Luke »

Robin Hood wrote: October 7th, 2020, 5:34 am
Luke wrote: October 7th, 2020, 3:15 am Another witness that Joshua Jones' noted this down in his journal. After paraphrasing Brigham, John T. Clark says:
  • "Attested to by Joshua Jones who made a minute of it at the time and now has it in his diary. He is now (June, 1922) at Provo City, Utah." (John T. Clark, One Mighty and Strong, pg. 106)
That gives us two people who knew Joshua Jones and possibly three who saw it in his journal

The only thing we have to do now is locate the journal itself
Even if it was located and it contained this comment, how would we know it wasn't back-written to suit the Fundamentalist narrative?
We have already established this was a common 19th century practice, especially by those who favoured polygamy.
Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
This a good point, but as I stated before, it’s highly likely that Brigham did say this as he made similar comments elsewhere

In the case of Joseph and polygamy, he always opposed it, so it looks suspicious when people coming along saying otherwise. But Brigham said things like this many times, so it isn’t suspicious

JSmith
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by JSmith »

Luke wrote: October 7th, 2020, 2:04 am
JSmith wrote: October 6th, 2020, 3:40 pm Now if the journal does show up and it is written in there, then you have a single claim. Not a corroborated claim. So it would still be suspect.
And here I believe your true reason for not believing that Brigham said this has become obvious: you don't want to believe that the Church may be off the rails
Please don't try to suppose what I do or do not believe, its a petty subject change. We are talking about the validity of the source you call "proof", not the beliefs of those who reject logic behind your claim.

I don’t believe he said it because it is a single source spurious quote without formal or informal corroboration by any known source.

I don’t believe a lot of single source attributions in church history. Because there was a long period of time when the church was semi-isolated through the mid-20th century that folk stories and false attributions ran rampant as faith or bias promoting rumors.

There are all kinds of comments that have attributed to church leaders throughout the years. A great many of them have been misconstrued, conflated, misattributed, or they are flat out false. That is why I don’t believe it.

Like the Manti Temple comment I raised earlier, its single source and it falls into a pattern of myth statements that have become urban legend.

You seem to believe it because it appeals to your confirmation bias about your views of the church and that's fine, but you should base your arguments about the Church's negative direction off of sources that are of a firmer foundation that second and third hand comments.

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Luke
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by Luke »

JSmith wrote: October 7th, 2020, 7:57 am
Luke wrote: October 7th, 2020, 2:04 am
JSmith wrote: October 6th, 2020, 3:40 pm Now if the journal does show up and it is written in there, then you have a single claim. Not a corroborated claim. So it would still be suspect.
And here I believe your true reason for not believing that Brigham said this has become obvious: you don't want to believe that the Church may be off the rails
Please don't try to suppose what I do or do not believe, its a petty subject change. We are talking about the validity of the source you call "proof", not the beliefs of those who reject logic behind your claim.

I don’t believe he said it because it is a single source spurious quote without formal or informal corroboration by any known source.

I don’t believe a lot of single source attributions in church history. Because there was a long period of time when the church was semi-isolated through the mid-20th century that folk stories and false attributions ran rampant as faith or bias promoting rumors.

There are all kinds of comments that have attributed to church leaders throughout the years. A great many of them have been misconstrued, conflated, misattributed, or they are flat out false. That is why I don’t believe it.

Like the Manti Temple comment I raised earlier, its single source and it falls into a pattern of myth statements that have become urban legend.

You seem to believe it because it appeals to your confirmation bias about your views of the church and that's fine, but you should base your arguments about the Church's negative direction off of sources that are of a firmer foundation that second and third hand comments.
I’m not changing the subject, just telling you what I think

Personally I see no evidence that Musser fabricated evidence or lied, since I have studied his character and found him to be honest to what he believed in. Therefore, we will have to agree to disagree

I do agree however that too much within Mormonism is based off hearsay and embellished remembrances, which can be quite problematic

JSmith
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by JSmith »

Not only do i agree its problematic, it think it is destructive.

When I was growing up the lessons in church and much of the common teaching was filled with these kind of faith promoting rumors. When I was on my mission I had companions who would tell these spurious quotes and false stories to investigators.

One of the ones that was popular at that time was the myth about the Catholic priest who had a vision of the church and it was recorded in a book located in a library in Europe.

This purported vision and even the name of the book and the author were shared with potential members of the church who were coming from a Catholic background.

The problem was that when BYU and other members of the church attempted to track down not only the book but the vision in the 1980's, it didn’t exist. A book with a similar title was found, but there was nothing in it that even remotely matched the faith promoting rumor that had been used by members of the church.

My position is this, I believe the book of Mormon is true. I believe Joseph Smith is a true prophet. I believe that the work in the temple for the salvation of the human family is absolutely true.

But I also believe that the church is a very human institution and that God does not micromanage its activities.

In the past the church has struggled with bad leader ship, has gone bankrupt or nearly gone bankrupt more than once, it has contradicted itself in terms of social policy and action, these are all elements that point to an organization that is led by men and that God lets drift and correct itself overtime.

I believe that the church is moving towards a self correction. And that will end up being some sort of sifting.

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Luke
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by Luke »

JSmith wrote: October 7th, 2020, 8:20 am Not only do i agree its problematic, it think it is destructive.

When I was growing up the lessons in church and much of the common teaching was filled with these kind of faith promoting rumors. When I was on my mission I had companions who would tell these spurious quotes and false stories to investigators.

One of the ones that was popular at that time was the myth about the Catholic priest who had a vision of the church and it was recorded in a book located in a library in Europe.

This purported vision and even the name of the book and the author were shared with potential members of the church who were coming from a Catholic background.

The problem was that when BYU and other members of the church attempted to track down not only the book but the vision in the 1980's, it didn’t exist. A book with a similar title was found, but there was nothing in it that even remotely matched the faith promoting rumor that had been used by members of the church.

My position is this, I believe the book of Mormon is true. I believe Joseph Smith is a true prophet. I believe that the work in the temple for the salvation of the human family is absolutely true.

But I also believe that the church is a very human institution and that God does not micromanage its activities.

In the past the church has struggled with bad leader ship, has gone bankrupt or nearly gone bankrupt more than once, it has contradicted itself in terms of social policy and action, these are all elements that point to an organization that is led by men and that God lets drift and correct itself overtime.

I believe that the church is moving towards a self correction. And that will end up being some sort of sifting.
Ok, then will you concede that there is no reliable contemporary evidence that Joseph was a polygamist?

JSmith
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by JSmith »

Luke wrote: October 7th, 2020, 8:59 am
JSmith wrote: October 7th, 2020, 8:20 am Not only do i agree its problematic, it think it is destructive.

When I was growing up the lessons in church and much of the common teaching was filled with these kind of faith promoting rumors. When I was on my mission I had companions who would tell these spurious quotes and false stories to investigators.

One of the ones that was popular at that time was the myth about the Catholic priest who had a vision of the church and it was recorded in a book located in a library in Europe.

This purported vision and even the name of the book and the author were shared with potential members of the church who were coming from a Catholic background.

The problem was that when BYU and other members of the church attempted to track down not only the book but the vision in the 1980's, it didn’t exist. A book with a similar title was found, but there was nothing in it that even remotely matched the faith promoting rumor that had been used by members of the church.

My position is this, I believe the book of Mormon is true. I believe Joseph Smith is a true prophet. I believe that the work in the temple for the salvation of the human family is absolutely true.

But I also believe that the church is a very human institution and that God does not micromanage its activities.

In the past the church has struggled with bad leader ship, has gone bankrupt or nearly gone bankrupt more than once, it has contradicted itself in terms of social policy and action, these are all elements that point to an organization that is led by men and that God lets drift and correct itself overtime.

I believe that the church is moving towards a self correction. And that will end up being some sort of sifting.
Ok, then will you concede that there is no reliable contemporary evidence that Joseph was a polygamist?
I will say that I am generally uninterested in the subject and therefore have not taken the time to examine each of the claims and weigh them.

To be fair, I am descended from Polygamous families on both sides and possess their journals and oral accounts, therefore I am probably initially biased to their take.

I have however purchased Brian Hales Books on the matter and they have been added to my "to read" pile.

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Art Vandelay
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by Art Vandelay »

Luke wrote: October 6th, 2020, 2:45 pm Quite a few months ago, I posted this quote by Brigham Young
  • “Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people. Then God will raise the one mighty and strong, spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants, to save and redeem this Church.”
Immediately the hounding begun. "FAKE QUOTE FAKE QUOTE" and the like

Apparently the reason it's false is because it's cited in Truth Magazine years later, and the publishers of Truth use the term "85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants", and the version of D&C that we have now is different to the edition used back in 1867. Therefore, they concluded, it's a made up quote, as Section 85 was not what it is now. Well they need to understand that the phrase "spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants" was added in to the paraphrase by a guy called John T. Clark in 1922, in his book "One Mighty and Strong", on page 106. So clearly this is not the original source. So what is the original source? Are there any contemporary accounts, and not hearsay?

Well get a load of this. Not only did Brigham Young make this statement, but here we have definite proof he did. Check out this entry from Joseph Musser's Journal:
  • "Daniel R. Peay of Provo . . . Also told of hearing Joshua Jones of Provo (now dead) tell of hearing Brigham Young say, 'The time will come when this people are lead onto the very brink of apostacy.' Jones made an entry of it in his Journal. Speech was made in the old Bowery in Provo." (Joseph Musser's Journal, 18 September 1938)
Musser here informs us that there IS a contemporary source, which was Joshua Jones, who recorded it in his journal at the time

I bet a transcription or copy of that Journal entry is in among this collection, which is usually cited as the reference for this quote (including by Wagoner in his "Complete Discourses of Brigham Young"):
  • Provo Bowery Conference, August 24th, 1867; [BX 8693 .C559 C547o, Americana Collection, L. Tom Perry Special Collections, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah], pg. 106
I believe it is time for all the naysayers to concede. Brigham Young did indeed say that the Church would be led into apostasy, and there is contemporary evidence to prove it
What does it matter? You don't believe Brigham was a Prophet anyway. He was polygamist who claimed Joseph was a polygamist. Amen to the Priesthood of that man, right?

So you think Brigham lied about polygamy, Joseph, and Section 132 but you believe that someone said there's a journal entry somewhere that says Brigham said such and such? Agenda much?

JSmith
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by JSmith »

Art Vandelay wrote: October 7th, 2020, 9:43 am
Luke wrote: October 6th, 2020, 2:45 pm Quite a few months ago, I posted this quote by Brigham Young
  • “Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people. Then God will raise the one mighty and strong, spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants, to save and redeem this Church.”
Immediately the hounding begun. "FAKE QUOTE FAKE QUOTE" and the like

Apparently the reason it's false is because it's cited in Truth Magazine years later, and the publishers of Truth use the term "85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants", and the version of D&C that we have now is different to the edition used back in 1867. Therefore, they concluded, it's a made up quote, as Section 85 was not what it is now. Well they need to understand that the phrase "spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants" was added in to the paraphrase by a guy called John T. Clark in 1922, in his book "One Mighty and Strong", on page 106. So clearly this is not the original source. So what is the original source? Are there any contemporary accounts, and not hearsay?

Well get a load of this. Not only did Brigham Young make this statement, but here we have definite proof he did. Check out this entry from Joseph Musser's Journal:
  • "Daniel R. Peay of Provo . . . Also told of hearing Joshua Jones of Provo (now dead) tell of hearing Brigham Young say, 'The time will come when this people are lead onto the very brink of apostacy.' Jones made an entry of it in his Journal. Speech was made in the old Bowery in Provo." (Joseph Musser's Journal, 18 September 1938)
Musser here informs us that there IS a contemporary source, which was Joshua Jones, who recorded it in his journal at the time

I bet a transcription or copy of that Journal entry is in among this collection, which is usually cited as the reference for this quote (including by Wagoner in his "Complete Discourses of Brigham Young"):
  • Provo Bowery Conference, August 24th, 1867; [BX 8693 .C559 C547o, Americana Collection, L. Tom Perry Special Collections, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah], pg. 106
I believe it is time for all the naysayers to concede. Brigham Young did indeed say that the Church would be led into apostasy, and there is contemporary evidence to prove it
What does it matter? You don't believe Brigham was a Prophet anyway. He was polygamist who claimed Joseph was a polygamist. Amen to the Priesthood of that man, right?

So you think Brigham lied about polygamy, Joseph, and Section 132 but you believe that someone said there's a journal entry somewhere that says Brigham said such and such? Agenda much?
you raise a very good point, why harp on a quote from Young as proof of anything when you have already dismissed his leadership as suspicious?

From this view the OP looks more like ideological opportunism. Why use a quote from a source you feel is untrustworthy? its self defeating at least or intellectually inconsistent at worst.

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Luke
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by Luke »

Art Vandelay and JSmith, you are just being disingenuous

I believe David was also a man who committed terrible whoredoms, and don't just take my word for it, it's in the Book of Mormon!
  • Jacob 2

    24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
So, with this in mind, are you going to throw out everything David said and Solomon said? Are you no longer going to read from Psalms? Are Proverbs going in the bin? Didn't think so

Such a ridiculous thing to say-- "you don't like Brigham's actions therefore you can't agree with his statements"

Such a non-argument it's unreal

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Luke
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by Luke »

Art Vandelay wrote: October 7th, 2020, 9:43 am Agenda much?
Yeah of course I have an agenda. So do you. So does everyone else

It's whether that agenda is good or not that you should be focusing on

I'm setting out my position and furnishing evidence to prove my position. Is that not what everyone else is doing?

Again, a non-argument

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Art Vandelay
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Re: Brigham Young DID in fact say the Church would go into apostasy

Post by Art Vandelay »

Luke wrote: October 7th, 2020, 10:10 am Art Vandelay and JSmith, you are just being disingenuous

I believe David was also a man who committed terrible whoredoms, and don't just take my word for it, it's in the Book of Mormon!
  • Jacob 2

    24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
So, with this in mind, are you going to throw out everything David said and Solomon said? Are you no longer going to read from Psalms? Are Proverbs going in the bin? Didn't think so

Such a ridiculous thing to say-- "you don't like Brigham's actions therefore you can't agree with his statements"

Such a non-argument it's unreal
David knew his mistake. We all know his mistake. It's in the scriptures. David didn't lie about it.

The point is that you claim Brigham is a liar..... when it's convenient for you.
Brigham spoke a lot about the future of the church leading up to and into the millennium. Apostasy isn't a part of it, well, unless you believe a guy who said he heard from a guy who read something from a journal from somebody who wrote something about what Brigham said while at the Provo Bowery.

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