Anger. Good or Bad?

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larsenb
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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by larsenb »

inho wrote: October 5th, 2020, 12:28 pm
inho wrote: June 25th, 2017, 10:58 am Orson Pratt in Millenial Star vol. 28:473-475; July 28, 1866:
For wise purposes, God has given you appetites and passions, and has given you laws to control the same. Do not pray for these attributes of your nature to be taken away; but pray for strength and grace to submit them to the will of him who has given them to you.
Anger is a passion wisely given to intelligent beings, intended for a good purpose but it is one easily perverted by fallen beings into an instrument of much evil. It is a passion pertaining to the Almighty who is angry with the wicked every day. Righteous anger is a feeling of indignation against sin, a feeling of justice, a feeling that the evil-doer merits punishment. This kind of anger is justifiable, whether it exists in the bosom of God, angels, or men: but anger founded upon any other principle is sinful, and when cultivated and indulged out of its proper channel, it brings misery and wretchedness upon all its unhappy votaries. Because we are so liable to sin through an improper indulgence of anger, is it right to pray for a destruction of the attribute? It certainly is not; for if man were dispossessed of this attribute, he would be unfit for a kingdom, where justice and judgment were the characteristics of the throne; he would be unfit for the society of the heavenly hosts, unfit for celestial, terrestrial, or telestial glory. Anger founded on justice and properly governed, is essential to the happiness of every kingdom; without it there could be no exaltation, no glory, and man would cease to be man, and dwindle into a non-descript something, beneath the animal creation.
Excellent quote, and understanding of 'anger' by Orson Pratt. He's exactly right imsho.

Once again, anger can arise instantaneously when one perceives a blatant injustice and wrong, especially seeing someone being hurt or put in imminent danger. I've experienced this a few times, and have acted on it with excellent results. Anger can act as the energizer for helping, saving or protecting someone or some group.

Anger held onto and allowed to fester is something else. In these cases, it would be better to use this anger to seek a solution by confronting an abuser or seeking protection from an abuser, and so on; or actively seeking justice against a perpetrator who has done you, your family or your loved ones wrong. If these actions don't pan out, or the perpetrator is no longer on the scene, the remaining step is to let it go and try to forgive the guilty one . . . .. with the Lord's help.

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Michael Sherwin
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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

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I think that few people experience true anger in their lives. I only experienced it one time. When it was triggered it welled up from inside. My whole body started to shake. I did not have to think about it or mull it over. It felt like it was trying to take control of me. I could have commited murder if I had let it control me. Instead I just walked away. The shaking lasted about 20 minutes before it started to subside. It took several days for it to completely go away.

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John Tavner
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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

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larsenb wrote: October 21st, 2020, 5:35 pm
inho wrote: October 5th, 2020, 12:28 pm
inho wrote: June 25th, 2017, 10:58 am Orson Pratt in Millenial Star vol. 28:473-475; July 28, 1866:
For wise purposes, God has given you appetites and passions, and has given you laws to control the same. Do not pray for these attributes of your nature to be taken away; but pray for strength and grace to submit them to the will of him who has given them to you.
Anger is a passion wisely given to intelligent beings, intended for a good purpose but it is one easily perverted by fallen beings into an instrument of much evil. It is a passion pertaining to the Almighty who is angry with the wicked every day. Righteous anger is a feeling of indignation against sin, a feeling of justice, a feeling that the evil-doer merits punishment. This kind of anger is justifiable, whether it exists in the bosom of God, angels, or men: but anger founded upon any other principle is sinful, and when cultivated and indulged out of its proper channel, it brings misery and wretchedness upon all its unhappy votaries. Because we are so liable to sin through an improper indulgence of anger, is it right to pray for a destruction of the attribute? It certainly is not; for if man were dispossessed of this attribute, he would be unfit for a kingdom, where justice and judgment were the characteristics of the throne; he would be unfit for the society of the heavenly hosts, unfit for celestial, terrestrial, or telestial glory. Anger founded on justice and properly governed, is essential to the happiness of every kingdom; without it there could be no exaltation, no glory, and man would cease to be man, and dwindle into a non-descript something, beneath the animal creation.
Excellent quote, and understanding of 'anger' by Orson Pratt. He's exactly right imsho.

Once again, anger can arise instantaneously when one perceives a blatant injustice and wrong, especially seeing someone being hurt or put in imminent danger. I've experienced this a few times, and have acted on it with excellent results. Anger can act as the energizer for helping, saving or protecting someone or some group.

Anger held onto and allowed to fester is something else. In these cases, it would be better to use this anger to seek a solution by confronting an abuser or seeking protection from an abuser, and so on; or actively seeking justice against a perpetrator who has done you, your family or your loved ones wrong. If these actions don't pan out, or the perpetrator is no longer on the scene, the remaining step is to let it go and try to forgive the guilty one . . . .. with the Lord's help.
I believe Orson got this wrong. The fallen man has anger. God did not create us to have anger. He created us to be made in His image and to "multiply and replenish the earth" in His image. We are all supposed to become one with Him and be like HIm. If God were subject to the bouts of anger and respond the way we do, then it would be very difficult to trust Him. Instead we are told HE is love (charity). Which Christ told us : Matt 5:24 But I say unto you that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of His judgment (JST). We are supposed to be different and peculiar, but we keep shortchanging the grace that God is freely giving us. Eph 4: Eph 4:26 Can ye be angry and not sin? Let not the sun go down upon your wrath;

Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil. (JST). Anger can give place to the devil It is better to avoid it. This doesn't mean beat yourself up because you are angry, but as paul says as a 3rd witness in Col 3: 8But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

If it happens remember it is the old man and we were called to more, ask for Grace to no longer give place to anger, but patience and love and udnerstanding. If anyone had a right to be angry it would have been Jesus on the cross after all He did, but rather He responded "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do"

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

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John Tavner wrote: October 24th, 2020, 3:32 pm... God did not create us to have anger. He created us to be made in His image...
... If God were subject to the bouts of anger and respond the way we do, then it would be very difficult to trust Him. Instead we are told HE is love (charity). Which Christ told us : Matt 5:24 But I say unto you that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of His judgment (JST). We are supposed to be different and peculiar, but we keep shortchanging the grace that God is freely giving us. Eph 4: Eph 4:26 Can ye be angry and not sin? Let not the sun go down upon your wrath;

... If anyone had a right to be angry it would have been Jesus on the cross after all He did, but rather He responded "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do"
Have you read the Old Testament? God comes off as quite angry. Of course, it’s written by people who can’t help but project their own states onto God. This shows how like medical advances, religious thought has also advanced. After so much paranoia of God’s wrath as to determine how many steps a day one could take (etc), Christ balanced it out with compassion, forgiveness & love. But he also expressed anger - toward using the temple to make money & toward hypocritically corrupt religious leaders. Catholic church & political leaders used Christ/Christianity as an excuse to torture & kill (for gain) in inquisition & crusades. This is another reason why everything should be questioned - faith ought to be tested so the foundation is strong.

Again,
BYU had an exhibit about how many positive or negative emotions of God were mentioned in the scriptures. Comparing how often certain words like love or hate came up - there are many punitive ideas of God, especially in the OT.

Carl Jung wrote how the beginning of Judaism’s history, only the Masculine element of God was realized. Not until Job, was the other side discovered. Jung wrote...
”Though conscious of these demands, Job obviously does not know enough about the Sophia who is coeternal with God.

...Thus it was the men of the last few centuries before Christ who, at the gentle touch of the pre-existent Sophia compensate Yahweh and his attitude, and that the same time complete the anamnesis of Wisdom. Taking a highly personified form that is clear proof of her autonomy, Wisdom reveals herself to men as a friendly helper and advocate against Yahweh, and shows them the bright side, the kind, just and amiable aspect of their God.

...Her [Sophia’s] co-existence with Yahweh signifies the perpetual hieros gamos from which worlds are begotten and born.

...The approach of Sophia betokens a new creation. But this time it is not the world that is to be changed; rather it is God who intends to change his own nature. Mankind is not, as before, to be destroyed, but saved.”


Jordan Peterson suggested that Christianity seemed to have gone too soft/feminine, so Revelations is there to remind us of the Masculine side of divinity. One way or the other, “there must needs be opposition in all things.”

Carl Jung wrote about how especially historically - we & our ancestors have been making god in our own image - from our own imagination. Jung explained that people saw God as tyrannical, unpredictable (blaming or crediting God for weather/crops) & unreasonable.


Job was a turning point when finally someone dared question God! All that time, nobody questioned God - or rather they didn’t question their imaginings of God. Yet, they had boldly claimed their unquestioned imaginings as “scripture” & thus we have some insanity like God saying, “Thou shalt not kill, not steal” and then supposedly telling them to steal and kill masses. If any passage is going to prove that we project our own ideas onto God - that is a good example. We need to “wrestle with God” - we’re supposed to. Scott Peck suggested an important lesson from the Adam & Eve parable is to question God - rather than to assume one thing or another - ask God - get more knowledge before doing something stupid. Carl Jung explained how Job was a turning point from seeing God as unreasonable, unpredictably punitive & one you couldn’t question... to questioning God and developing necessary faith in a more wise, reasonable God.


Anger has purpose, especially in a world where “there must needs be opposition in all things.” Yet, anger is powerful, so to avoid anger taking over with disastrous effects, it must be carefully managed. When I start to feel a lot of anger, and pray, I’m often surprised that I feel the Spirit. In such anger, I’d think “God would want nothing to do with such an angry fool!” Yet, God loves & wants to help us in all states - & thereby weakness becomes strength.
Last edited by Thinker on October 25th, 2020, 8:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

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John Tavner
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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

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Thinker wrote: October 25th, 2020, 7:51 am
John Tavner wrote: October 24th, 2020, 3:32 pm... God did not create us to have anger. He created us to be made in His image...
... If God were subject to the bouts of anger and respond the way we do, then it would be very difficult to trust Him. Instead we are told HE is love (charity). Which Christ told us : Matt 5:24 But I say unto you that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of His judgment (JST). We are supposed to be different and peculiar, but we keep shortchanging the grace that God is freely giving us. Eph 4: Eph 4:26 Can ye be angry and not sin? Let not the sun go down upon your wrath;

... If anyone had a right to be angry it would have been Jesus on the cross after all He did, but rather He responded "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do"
Have you read the Old Testament? God comes off as quite angry throughout. Of course, it’s written by people who can’t help but project their own states onto God. This shows how like medical advances, religious thought has also advanced. After so much paranoia of God’s wrath as to determine how many steps a day one could take (etc), Christ balancer it out with compassion, forgiveness & love. But he also expressed anger - toward using the temple to make money & toward hypocritically corrupt religious leaders. Catholic Church & political leaders used Christ/Christianity as an excuse to torture & kill (for gain) in inquisition & crusades. This is another reason why everything should be questioned - faith ought to be tested so the foundation is strong.

Again,
BYU had an exhibit about how many positive or negative emotions of God were mentioned in the scriptures. Comparing how often certain words like love or hate came up - there were many punitive ideas of God, especially in the OT.

Carl Jung wrote how the beginning of Judaism’s history, only the Masculine element of God was realized. Not until Job, was the other side discovered. Jung wrote...

”Though conscious of these demands, Job obviously does not know enough about the Sophia who is coeternal with God.

...Thus it was the men of the last few centuries before Christ who, at the gentle touch of the pre-existent Sophia compensate Yahweh and his attitude, and that the same time complete the anamnesis of Wisdom. Taking a highly personified form that is clear proof of her autonomy, Wisdom reveals herself to men as a friendly helper and advocate against Yahweh, and shows them the bright side, the kind, just and amiable aspect of their God.

...Her [Sophia’s] co-existence with Yahweh signifies the perpetual hieros gamos from which worlds are begotten and born.

...The approach of Sophia betokens a new creation. But this time it is not the world that is to be changed; rather it is God who intends to change his own nature. Mankind is not, as before, to be destroyed, but saved.”


Jordan Peterson suggested that Christianity seemed to have gone too soft/feminine, so Revelations is there to remind us of the Masculine side of divinity. One way or the other, “there must needs be opposition in all things.”

Carl Jung wrote about how especially historically - we & our ancestors have been making god in our own image - from our own imagination. Jung explained that people saw God as tyrannical, unpredictable (blaming or crediting God for weather/crops) & unreasonable.


Job was a turning point when finally someone dared question God! All that time, nobody questioned God - or rather they didn’t question their imaginings of God. Yet, they had boldly claimed their unquestioned imaginings as “scripture” & thus we have some insanity like God saying, “Thou shalt not kill, not steal” and then supposedly telling them to steal and kill masses. If any passage is going to prove that we project our own ideas onto God - that is a good example. We need to “wrestle with God” - we’re supposed to. Scott Peck suggested an important lesson from the Adam & Eve parable is to question God - rather than to assume one thing or another - ask God - get more knowledge before doing something stupid. Carl Jung explained how Job was a turning point from seeing God as unreasonable, unpredictably punitive & one you couldn’t question... to questioning God and developing necessary faith in a more wise, reasonable God.


Anger has purpose, especially in a world where “there must needs be opposition in all things.”
I have, and I do not read the old testament the same way everyone says it is, I haven't found it to be "angry" at all. In fact I find it dishonest or at least ignorant how people judge the old testament - most of them that say that ahve not read the entire old testament or if they have they have not paid attention to the context they are just repeating what they are told. In context God isn't just one to "fly off the rails." Every time, there is a reason. Anger = judgment in the the old testament. The old testament post Abraham is are a set of rules prescribing what one must do to be righteous. If one fails at one point of the law they are guilty of all points - guilt = spiritual death. All of it is types and symbols of reality. God being love only acted in love. This because they refused to accept what God was trying to teach them - "you can be like Me." It is only in the realization that it is impossible for us to obtain ourselves that we can become alive - we must die to live - Christ taught that repeatedly. Yet in our pride we continue to think we can "do" everything without Him. To show His love,at one point His entire creation became so wicked (notice hte patience HE must have had with that) that it was impossible for any of them, with the exception of a few, and even that would have ended, to obtain eternal life, or their children. God's purpose and glory is for us to obtain eternal life - not to make us "feel" happy. I disagree with the whole "Job" interpretation as well. These are all philosphers ways of trying to fill holes in their own life because they are missing something and they are trying to explain it away with the wisdom of hte world. In the beginning we were made in the image of God, then we fell. We are now supposed to put off the "old man" of the fall and put on the "new man" of being risen with Christ. Almost every story in scripture has context - much of it is spiritual in nature, dealing with spriritual warfare.

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

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John Tavner wrote: October 25th, 2020, 8:02 am... These are all philosphers ways of trying to fill holes in their own life because they are missing something and they are trying to explain it away with the wisdom of hte world. In the beginning we were made in the image of God, then we fell...
Almost every story in scripture has context - much of it is spiritual in nature, dealing with spriritual warfare.
I didn’t mean to demean you when I asked, “Have you read the OT?” I meant it kind of as saying “But look at all the anger in the OT.” Sorry, I wasn’t more clear. John, often, I’ve been impressed with your scripture awareness, even if we disagree about interpretation.

Having struggled with depression on & off, since I was a child, I recognize truth in what lds authors Topp said about how up to 80% of mental illness is likely rooted in misunderstandings of religious doctrine. The field of psychology has been overtaken by politics (which explains the 180 in diagnosis regarding lgbtq-bs), but be careful not to mix it up with personal psych-ology (study of the soul).

One of the most damming (holding us back like a dam) lds teachings is the lie that scripture is always favorable to “philosophies of man” & to avoid psych-ology. Reminds me of:
  • ”But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.” - Matthew 23:13
It may be like pharmaceutical companies discouraging natural, healthier remedies, because then they lose power/money.

You wrote, “These are all philosphers ways of trying to fill holes in their own life because they are missing something and they are trying to explain it away with the wisdom of hte world.”
Who do you think scripture writers are & what do you think they’re doing? Just because one inspired imperfect person is less popular (not canonized) than another inspired imperfect person doesn’t negate the inspiration. Some scriptures are flat out dysfunctional (like teaching incest, & using one’s wife like a prostitute). Yes, there may be spiritual meaning - but then you get some saying facts like marriage between a man and a woman is just spiritual - not literal. And consider the many evil justifications of unjust killings & wars - especially in the BofM.
  • “...if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God” - BofM Intro

    "Search the scriptures, search the prophets, and learn what portion of them belongs to you." -Joseph Smith
The Bible, of which Mormonism is founded, has a history that after learning, I don’t blindly trust it as I previously did. It’s not that it’s plagiarized from Chinese/Orient (Wisdom of the East), but rather it was used to justify killing, & after reading the protocols, may be used so again, if we’re not careful. I’m not “throwing the baby out with the bath water,” but rather suggesting we follow Joseph Smith’s advice (above) & test things out to find the good while leaving the bad - in “philosophies of men” including scripture.

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John Tavner
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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by John Tavner »

Thinker wrote: October 25th, 2020, 8:30 am
John Tavner wrote: October 25th, 2020, 8:02 am... These are all philosphers ways of trying to fill holes in their own life because they are missing something and they are trying to explain it away with the wisdom of hte world. In the beginning we were made in the image of God, then we fell...
Almost every story in scripture has context - much of it is spiritual in nature, dealing with spriritual warfare.
I didn’t mean to demean you when I asked, “Have you read the OT?” I meant it kind of as saying “But look at all the anger in the OT.” Sorry, I wasn’t more clear. John, often, I’ve been impressed with your scripture awareness, even if we disagree about interpretation.

Having struggled with depression on & off, since I was a child, I recognize truth in what lds authors Topp said about how up to 80% of mental illness is likely rooted in misunderstandings of religious doctrine. The field of psychology has been overtaken by politics (which explains the 180 in diagnosis regarding lgbtq-bs), but be careful not to mix it up with personal psych-ology (study of the soul).

One of the most damming (holding us back like a dam) lds teachings is the lie that scripture is always favorable to “philosophies of man” & to avoid psych-ology. Reminds me of:
  • ”But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.” - Matthew 23:13
It may be like pharmaceutical companies discouraging natural, healthier remedies, because then they lose power/money.

You wrote, “These are all philosphers ways of trying to fill holes in their own life because they are missing something and they are trying to explain it away with the wisdom of hte world.”
Who do you think scripture writers are & what do you think they’re doing? Just because one inspired imperfect person is less popular (not canonized) than another inspired imperfect person doesn’t negate the inspiration. Some scriptures are flat out dysfunctional (like teaching incest, & using one’s wife like a prostitute). Yes, there may be spiritual meaning - but then you get some saying facts like marriage between a man and a woman is just spiritual - not literal. And consider the many evil justifications of unjust killings & wars - especially in the BofM.
  • “...if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God” - BofM Intro

    "Search the scriptures, search the prophets, and learn what portion of them belongs to you." -Joseph Smith
The Bible, of which Mormonism is founded, has a history that after learning, I don’t blindly trust it as I previously did. It’s not that it’s plagiarized from Chinese/Orient (Wisdom of the East), but rather it was used to justify killing, & after reading the protocols, may be used so again, if we’re not careful. I’m not “throwing the baby out with the bath water,” but rather suggesting we follow Joseph Smith’s advice (above) & test things out to find the good while leaving the bad - in “philosophies of men” including scripture.
Thank you for the kind compliment.

I'm sorry you have struggled with depression. I also agree false teachings and misundestandings often lead to this depression. One of the things I've learned is the truthfulness of "He who the Son sets free is free indeed." All of us are taught incorrect thinking from our birth. Every. Single One. Even the most sincere and humble followers of Chrsit do err because of the precepts of men (2 Nephi 28).

My issue with psychology is not that it is completely full of lies or untruths, it is that it turns many away from THE TRUTH. Which is Christ. They focus on self. The focus on self is what leads to wrong emotions. If we deny ourselves, we no longer "need" to feel a certain way.

I can use scripture to quote something too which says the exact opposite of what you said - Anyone can find scripture to "prove" their point. THe point of scripture isn't to prove a point, it is to KNOW God and to learn of Him. It is to teach us who He is. All people lack wisdom, we are told to then seek God in wisdom to udnerstand what the scriptures say. The Scriptures repeat this with statements like : 1 Corinth 1: 22Jews demand signs and Greeks search for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength. 26 Brothers, consider the time of your calling: Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were powerful; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

Or 1 Corinth 3: 18Let no one deceive himself. If any of you thinks he is wise in this age, he should become a fool, so that he may become wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness.” 20And again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” 21Therefore, stop boasting in men. All things are yours, 22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future. All of them belong to you,

Or Proverbs 9:9Instruct a wise man, and he will be wiser still; teach a righteous man, and he will increase his learning. 10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

And Proverbs 9 linked to this : Proverbs 3:19 The Lord by wisdom founded the earth; by understanding he established the heavens; Teaches us a lot - and there is wisdom in there if pondered, but I am sidetracked.

Not that it matters, but I studied philosophy and psychology for years. At one point in time I wanted to be one. Most of my educational experience deals with philosophy and philosophers. I understand. All of them encounter bits of truth, all of them are trying to find what fills the hole, most of them failed at filling that hole. There were benefits to me in obtaing bits of truth or a different approach in how I could apply something - it was the precepts of men though. How do I know they were searching for a hole to be filled? Because I sought after it myself until the hole was filled, much of it is clear as day when you start seeing it. When my whole(hole) was filled it is like I didn't need it anymore. I found what filled my hole. I had to deny myself as Christ put it(Matt 16;24), or another way HE said it. He who seeks to save HIs life shall lose it, but He who seeks to lose His life for my sake shall save it (Matt 10:39). The Lord has given us a way to interpret scripture, it is by seeking HIm and His Spirit. The tools are given us to know, but most of us in foolishness choose to give up what HE has already given us.

You are absolutely right about someone being inspired and it doesn't matter - if it is given by the Holy SPirit it is scripture. The problem is that Hitler can say some inspired things sometimes, but it doesn't mean I want to beleive everything HE wrote. The Apostles and prophets of scripture generally walked and talked with God, they know HIm much better than many of us have or did. They write about their experiences - some is lost in translation. They knew/know the grace of God. What happens is that we often read from our perspective which is a fallen perspective when they are writing it from a saved perspective, usually- because they know their place before God.

Yep some are dysfunctional, becaue they are human. What we see is that often those people didn't trust in the promises of God. No where does it "teach" incest. I don't know where it says they use their wife as a prostitute There are instances of being commanded to marry a prostitute. I'm assuming your "use of the wife as a prostitute is an interpretation. Much of hte dysfunction is because of mistakes people made in not trusting in the promises of God, so they tried to "make" it "right" themselves. The scriptures, however, are there to show us that God keeps His promises even when we fail miserably. Abraham was given a promise. Sarah is like... welp, this aint happening maybe it is through my concubine. Abraham probably desperate a little is like... "ok". God afterwards is like "nah" I told you what would happen. Sarah, you're gonna have baby" She does. Promise fulfilled despite their learnings. Lot chooses the wrong place to live cause He liked the nice Ground. God makes infertile ground fertile with Abraham. Lot loses everything (seek own life) except family, because He really did mean well. You can argue about the whole angel thing if you want - JST says He didn't offer His daughters, but even if you don't believe JST, the you see that Lot, in fear, and KNOWING they were angels of God was like.. ughh it is better for not an angel to suffer than an angel (wrong thinking and also not trusting or realizing the power of God) This all comes down to how each of us make anctions in our own life. We think we are making right decisions when it doesn't seem the right one is there, when the answer is generally - turn to God, trust Him.

I agree with the mistakes, and most of hte mistakes are often how they write words - which is why you need the spirit.

Joseph's Smith's quote - He immediately discloses He is talking about specific commandments. Noah was told to build a physical ark, we aren't supposed to build an ark - but we should build a spiritual one, trusting in God. Don't take that to the extreme

THere is truth, and Christ is THE TRUTH, the WAY, and the LIFE. No one comes to the Father except by Christ and except the Father call them. The Father is calling all.

The reason the Bible is used to justify is back the premise. I can find anything I want justified in the Bible, if I look for it. Our purpose is to not make heavenly things justified in us, but for us to die, so we become heaven and then apply heavenly things which emanate from us. We need the Spirit to interpret, and it comes form denying ourselves rather than always trying to justify ourselves - through our religion or our way of thinking, or anything else. Until we completely submit to God, we will constantly be tricked and even when we do submit we still ahve to turn over false ideas and precepts we grew up with. We have to see who we really are in God's eyes. See as He sees, that is a part of charity - without charity we are nothing and most of us try to interpret scriptures fro ma non-charity based view, but a carnal view. No wonder we have war. There is no attempt to let heaven get into us. We just seek to impose us on others and try to incorporate part of what we think is heaven in our actions rather than completely submitting to God.

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by EvanLM »

Jesus also killed wicked in a flood - on the American continent Jesus killed with earthquakes and fire. He asked Nephi to take the head of a man who just ran him out of town. I wonder if the conversation would be different if we were all retuning vets of WWII or civil war. Israel left Egypt and they killed a lot of people. What's the common theme?

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by Thinker »

Being a broken record to get it in my own thick skull: 😁

Christ: “Blessed are the meek.”
Meek: “with sheathed sword” - ability & willing to fight but self control not to when uncalled for

Anger serves a purpose - to right wrongs, protect. Yet, the #1 cause of death (besides abortion) is heart disease which is correlated with excess stress/anger. Ideally, we only hang on to enough anger to assert & protect. How do we release the rest of the anger that just hurts us? How else to assert & protect? With boundaries.

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by larsenb »

John Tavner wrote: October 24th, 2020, 3:32 pm
larsenb wrote: October 21st, 2020, 5:35 pm
inho wrote: October 5th, 2020, 12:28 pm
inho wrote: June 25th, 2017, 10:58 am Orson Pratt in Millenial Star vol. 28:473-475; July 28, 1866:

Excellent quote, and understanding of 'anger' by Orson Pratt. He's exactly right imsho.

Once again, anger can arise instantaneously when one perceives a blatant injustice and wrong, especially seeing someone being hurt or put in imminent danger. I've experienced this a few times, and have acted on it with excellent results. Anger can act as the energizer for helping, saving or protecting someone or some group.

Anger held onto and allowed to fester is something else. In these cases, it would be better to use this anger to seek a solution by confronting an abuser or seeking protection from an abuser, and so on; or actively seeking justice against a perpetrator who has done you, your family or your loved ones wrong. If these actions don't pan out, or the perpetrator is no longer on the scene, the remaining step is to let it go and try to forgive the guilty one . . . .. with the Lord's help.
I believe Orson got this wrong. The fallen man has anger. God did not create us to have anger. He created us to be made in His image and to "multiply and replenish the earth" in His image. We are all supposed to become one with Him and be like HIm. If God were subject to the bouts of anger and respond the way we do, then it would be very difficult to trust Him. Instead we are told HE is love (charity). Which Christ told us : Matt 5:24 But I say unto you that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of His judgment (JST). We are supposed to be different and peculiar, but we keep shortchanging the grace that God is freely giving us. Eph 4: Eph 4:26 Can ye be angry and not sin? Let not the sun go down upon your wrath;

Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil. (JST). Anger can give place to the devil It is better to avoid it. This doesn't mean beat yourself up because you are angry, but as paul says as a 3rd witness in Col 3: 8But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

If it happens remember it is the old man and we were called to more, ask for Grace to no longer give place to anger, but patience and love and udnerstanding. If anyone had a right to be angry it would have been Jesus on the cross after all He did, but rather He responded "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do"
I didn't see this. You're still missing the point that anger can be an instantaneous emotional upwelling that can galvanize action used to correct the wrongs that caused the anger, usually seeing gross injustice, someone being ganged up on and hurt, etc.; and it can even be used long term to correct similar injustices via legal or other righteous means and channels.

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by EvanLM »

PDrockton.M.A. wrote: October 3rd, 2020, 10:08 pm Anger is a destroying fire that burns down everything it touches. Both the good and the bad. It ultimately leads the angry individual to loneliness and emptiness....

No matter how big the injustice. Remember, it is now or will eventually be in the past. Pray for forgiveness of everyone that has offended you. Rebuke anger. It is Satans number 1 tool for destroying mankind.
I am forgiving everyone some more. BUT I am being destroyed at work and publicly because of my belief in Jesus Christ. I have seen Christians klilled with no stop for the last 7 years. hmmmmmmmm not because of my anger, but because of someone else's anger

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by EvanLM »

larsenb wrote: April 30th, 2021, 1:27 pm
John Tavner wrote: October 24th, 2020, 3:32 pm
larsenb wrote: October 21st, 2020, 5:35 pm
inho wrote: October 5th, 2020, 12:28 pm
Excellent quote, and understanding of 'anger' by Orson Pratt. He's exactly right imsho.

Once again, anger can arise instantaneously when one perceives a blatant injustice and wrong, especially seeing someone being hurt or put in imminent danger. I've experienced this a few times, and have acted on it with excellent results. Anger can act as the energizer for helping, saving or protecting someone or some group.

Anger held onto and allowed to fester is something else. In these cases, it would be better to use this anger to seek a solution by confronting an abuser or seeking protection from an abuser, and so on; or actively seeking justice against a perpetrator who has done you, your family or your loved ones wrong. If these actions don't pan out, or the perpetrator is no longer on the scene, the remaining step is to let it go and try to forgive the guilty one . . . .. with the Lord's help.
had a counselor tell me to use my anger to set boundaries and protect myself

I believe Orson got this wrong. The fallen man has anger. God did not create us to have anger. He created us to be made in His image and to "multiply and replenish the earth" in His image. We are all supposed to become one with Him and be like HIm. If God were subject to the bouts of anger and respond the way we do, then it would be very difficult to trust Him. Instead we are told HE is love (charity). Which Christ told us : Matt 5:24 But I say unto you that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of His judgment (JST). We are supposed to be different and peculiar, but we keep shortchanging the grace that God is freely giving us. Eph 4: Eph 4:26 Can ye be angry and not sin? Let not the sun go down upon your wrath;

Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil. (JST). Anger can give place to the devil It is better to avoid it. This doesn't mean beat yourself up because you are angry, but as paul says as a 3rd witness in Col 3: 8But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

If it happens remember it is the old man and we were called to more, ask for Grace to no longer give place to anger, but patience and love and udnerstanding. If anyone had a right to be angry it would have been Jesus on the cross after all He did, but rather He responded "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do"
I didn't see this. You're still missing the point that anger can be an instantaneous emotional upwelling that can galvanize action used to correct the wrongs that caused the anger, usually seeing gross injustice, someone being ganged up on and hurt, etc.; and it can even be used long term to correct similar injustices via legal or other righteous means and channels.
had a counselor tell me to use my anger to set boundaries and protect myself

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by EvanLM »

I have used my anger to help victims - just saying won't tell the stories, though

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by John Tavner »

larsenb wrote: April 30th, 2021, 1:27 pm
John Tavner wrote: October 24th, 2020, 3:32 pm
larsenb wrote: October 21st, 2020, 5:35 pm
inho wrote: October 5th, 2020, 12:28 pm
Excellent quote, and understanding of 'anger' by Orson Pratt. He's exactly right imsho.

Once again, anger can arise instantaneously when one perceives a blatant injustice and wrong, especially seeing someone being hurt or put in imminent danger. I've experienced this a few times, and have acted on it with excellent results. Anger can act as the energizer for helping, saving or protecting someone or some group.

Anger held onto and allowed to fester is something else. In these cases, it would be better to use this anger to seek a solution by confronting an abuser or seeking protection from an abuser, and so on; or actively seeking justice against a perpetrator who has done you, your family or your loved ones wrong. If these actions don't pan out, or the perpetrator is no longer on the scene, the remaining step is to let it go and try to forgive the guilty one . . . .. with the Lord's help.
I believe Orson got this wrong. The fallen man has anger. God did not create us to have anger. He created us to be made in His image and to "multiply and replenish the earth" in His image. We are all supposed to become one with Him and be like HIm. If God were subject to the bouts of anger and respond the way we do, then it would be very difficult to trust Him. Instead we are told HE is love (charity). Which Christ told us : Matt 5:24 But I say unto you that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of His judgment (JST). We are supposed to be different and peculiar, but we keep shortchanging the grace that God is freely giving us. Eph 4: Eph 4:26 Can ye be angry and not sin? Let not the sun go down upon your wrath;

Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil. (JST). Anger can give place to the devil It is better to avoid it. This doesn't mean beat yourself up because you are angry, but as paul says as a 3rd witness in Col 3: 8But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

If it happens remember it is the old man and we were called to more, ask for Grace to no longer give place to anger, but patience and love and udnerstanding. If anyone had a right to be angry it would have been Jesus on the cross after all He did, but rather He responded "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do"
I didn't see this. You're still missing the point that anger can be an instantaneous emotional upwelling that can galvanize action used to correct the wrongs that caused the anger, usually seeing gross injustice, someone being ganged up on and hurt, etc.; and it can even be used long term to correct similar injustices via legal or other righteous means and channels.
And you are missing the point. If you want to take it up with Jesus that is cool, I'm just telling you what scripture says:

James 1:20 19My beloved brothers, understand this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger, 20for man’s anger does not bring about the righteousness that God desires.

Boldly speaking you either choose to bear the name of Christ or bear the natural man - we all have a choice.

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by larsenb »

John Tavner wrote: April 30th, 2021, 7:12 pm
larsenb wrote: April 30th, 2021, 1:27 pm
John Tavner wrote: October 24th, 2020, 3:32 pm
larsenb wrote: October 21st, 2020, 5:35 pm

Excellent quote, and understanding of 'anger' by Orson Pratt. He's exactly right imsho.

Once again, anger can arise instantaneously when one perceives a blatant injustice and wrong, especially seeing someone being hurt or put in imminent danger. I've experienced this a few times, and have acted on it with excellent results. Anger can act as the energizer for helping, saving or protecting someone or some group.

Anger held onto and allowed to fester is something else. In these cases, it would be better to use this anger to seek a solution by confronting an abuser or seeking protection from an abuser, and so on; or actively seeking justice against a perpetrator who has done you, your family or your loved ones wrong. If these actions don't pan out, or the perpetrator is no longer on the scene, the remaining step is to let it go and try to forgive the guilty one . . . .. with the Lord's help.
I believe Orson got this wrong. The fallen man has anger. God did not create us to have anger. He created us to be made in His image and to "multiply and replenish the earth" in His image. We are all supposed to become one with Him and be like HIm. If God were subject to the bouts of anger and respond the way we do, then it would be very difficult to trust Him. Instead we are told HE is love (charity). Which Christ told us : Matt 5:24 But I say unto you that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of His judgment (JST). We are supposed to be different and peculiar, but we keep shortchanging the grace that God is freely giving us. Eph 4: Eph 4:26 Can ye be angry and not sin? Let not the sun go down upon your wrath;

Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil. (JST). Anger can give place to the devil It is better to avoid it. This doesn't mean beat yourself up because you are angry, but as paul says as a 3rd witness in Col 3: 8But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

If it happens remember it is the old man and we were called to more, ask for Grace to no longer give place to anger, but patience and love and udnerstanding. If anyone had a right to be angry it would have been Jesus on the cross after all He did, but rather He responded "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do"
I didn't see this. You're still missing the point that anger can be an instantaneous emotional upwelling that can galvanize action used to correct the wrongs that caused the anger, usually seeing gross injustice, someone being ganged up on and hurt, etc.; and it can even be used long term to correct similar injustices via legal or other righteous means and channels.
And you are missing the point. If you want to take it up with Jesus that is cool, I'm just telling you what scripture says:

James 1:20 19My beloved brothers, understand this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger, 20for man’s anger does not bring about the righteousness that God desires.

Boldly speaking you either choose to bear the name of Christ or bear the natural man - we all have a choice.
Don't think so. You are describing anger held onto that can and often does lead to bad actions.

Next time you see an 8 year old (as an example) being beaten for no good reason by an adult in your close vicinity, it will be interesting to see how you handle the anger welling up in your breast, and how much time you spend trying to quell your anger while the kid continues to be beaten.

And of course, I'd like to see how Cruiserdude handles the same situation ;)

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by larsenb »

Basic human emotions like fear, anger, sexual feelings and of course, love, all have their proper and legitimate use in certain situations. This should be obvious w/out much explication. And of course, we would all like to experience the emotion of love on a fairly constant basis . . . . . that is where correct action, thought and faith come in.

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by John Tavner »

larsenb wrote: April 30th, 2021, 7:36 pm
John Tavner wrote: April 30th, 2021, 7:12 pm
larsenb wrote: April 30th, 2021, 1:27 pm
John Tavner wrote: October 24th, 2020, 3:32 pm

I believe Orson got this wrong. The fallen man has anger. God did not create us to have anger. He created us to be made in His image and to "multiply and replenish the earth" in His image. We are all supposed to become one with Him and be like HIm. If God were subject to the bouts of anger and respond the way we do, then it would be very difficult to trust Him. Instead we are told HE is love (charity). Which Christ told us : Matt 5:24 But I say unto you that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of His judgment (JST). We are supposed to be different and peculiar, but we keep shortchanging the grace that God is freely giving us. Eph 4: Eph 4:26 Can ye be angry and not sin? Let not the sun go down upon your wrath;

Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil. (JST). Anger can give place to the devil It is better to avoid it. This doesn't mean beat yourself up because you are angry, but as paul says as a 3rd witness in Col 3: 8But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

If it happens remember it is the old man and we were called to more, ask for Grace to no longer give place to anger, but patience and love and udnerstanding. If anyone had a right to be angry it would have been Jesus on the cross after all He did, but rather He responded "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do"
I didn't see this. You're still missing the point that anger can be an instantaneous emotional upwelling that can galvanize action used to correct the wrongs that caused the anger, usually seeing gross injustice, someone being ganged up on and hurt, etc.; and it can even be used long term to correct similar injustices via legal or other righteous means and channels.
And you are missing the point. If you want to take it up with Jesus that is cool, I'm just telling you what scripture says:

James 1:20 19My beloved brothers, understand this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger, 20for man’s anger does not bring about the righteousness that God desires.

Boldly speaking you either choose to bear the name of Christ or bear the natural man - we all have a choice.
Don't think so. You are describing anger held onto that can and often does lead to bad actions.

Next time you see an 8 year old (as an example) being beaten for no good reason by an adult in your close vicinity, it will be interesting to see how you handle the anger welling up in your breast, and how much time you spend trying to quell your anger while the kid continues to be beaten.

And of course, I'd like to see how Cruiserdude handles the same situation ;)
Not being angry does not mean inaction- I'm not sure how you think that actions can only be followed by anger. Edit:To add to your child scenario - the question we should ask ourselves is "are we acting because we love the child or because we are angry at the adults actions?" One leads to righteousness, the other leads to mistakes. (end edit)

What you are doing is justifying your anger- which is literally what hte scriptures tell us we ought not do. I can get someone to stop beating a child without being angry.

Edit: finally, I'm not talking about holding onto anger at all - that means I am angry. I'm talking about becoming, so that anger no longer is a part of me through Christ and becoming charity- which is the love of God - the gift that if we don't have, we are considered nothing. (end edit)
Last edited by John Tavner on May 1st, 2021, 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by John Tavner »

larsenb wrote: April 30th, 2021, 7:44 pm Basic human emotions like fear, anger, sexual feelings and of course, love, all have their proper and legitimate use in certain situations. This should be obvious w/out much explication. And of course, we would all like to experience the emotion of love on a fairly constant basis . . . . . that is where correct action, thought and faith come in.
The New Testament disagrees with you. Those emotions are natural man's emotions. We are to put off the natural man and put on the new man in Christ.

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Wrath, the early Church Fathers decided, is one of the seven deadly sins. Why? Because it gets in the way of our Christian duty to love each other as we love ourselves. The only higher duty we have have is to love God, which accounts for Jesus' righteous anger at the money changers in the temple in Jerusalem.

Best wishes, 2RM

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by larsenb »

John Tavner wrote: April 30th, 2021, 8:03 pm
larsenb wrote: April 30th, 2021, 7:36 pm
John Tavner wrote: April 30th, 2021, 7:12 pm
larsenb wrote: April 30th, 2021, 1:27 pm
I didn't see this. You're still missing the point that anger can be an instantaneous emotional upwelling that can galvanize action used to correct the wrongs that caused the anger, usually seeing gross injustice, someone being ganged up on and hurt, etc.; and it can even be used long term to correct similar injustices via legal or other righteous means and channels.
And you are missing the point. If you want to take it up with Jesus that is cool, I'm just telling you what scripture says:

James 1:20 19My beloved brothers, understand this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger, 20for man’s anger does not bring about the righteousness that God desires.

Boldly speaking you either choose to bear the name of Christ or bear the natural man - we all have a choice.
Don't think so. You are describing anger held onto that can and often does lead to bad actions.

Next time you see an 8 year old (as an example) being beaten for no good reason by an adult in your close vicinity, it will be interesting to see how you handle the anger welling up in your breast, and how much time you spend trying to quell your anger while the kid continues to be beaten.

And of course, I'd like to see how Cruiserdude handles the same situation ;)
Not being angry does not mean inaction- I'm not sure how you think that actions can only be followed by anger. Edit:To add to your child scenario - the question we should ask ourselves is "are we acting because we love the child or because we are angry at the adults actions?" One leads to righteousness, the other leads to mistakes. (end edit)

What you are doing is justifying your anger- which is literally what hte scriptures tell us we ought not do. I can get someone to stop beating a child without being angry.

Edit: finally, I'm not talking about holding onto anger at all - that means I am angry. I'm talking about becoming, so that anger no longer is a part of me through Christ and becoming charity- which is the love of God - the gift that if we don't have, we are considered nothing. (end edit)
Huh??

I'm not sure you've understood anything I've said. Where on earth did I say anything like: "actions can only be followed by anger"??

I'm not trying to justify anything.

Let me reiterate something I have said that would indicate emotions like anger, fear, love, etc., can arise instantaneously without any or very little thought. AND, they can be beneficial, provided they lead to corrective action.

First anger: Lets say you see your 4 year old daughter being beaten by a grown man for no reason. Are you claiming that you will not feel anger welling up in your breast, AND take immediate action to stop the man??

Next fear: Let's say that you are walking down a city street and you become aware of a lion suddenly running after you with jaws open, roaring and claws extended. Are you saying that fear will not well up in your breast which causes immediate adrenal discharge, your blood vessels to constrict, and your pulse to quicken, all of which aid you to launch into full flight away from danger or to valiantly meet the charge and defend yourself as best you can?

In both cases, anger and fear are coming to your aid in taking corrective action. Very little thought is involved that does not aid your defense of your daughter of flight from the lion. However, the adrenaline could also result in hyper thought that allows you to rapidly know what to do.

I see you as complicating the issue by trying force these categories into a strictly religious context.

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by larsenb »

John Tavner wrote: April 30th, 2021, 8:06 pm
larsenb wrote: April 30th, 2021, 7:44 pm Basic human emotions like fear, anger, sexual feelings and of course, love, all have their proper and legitimate use in certain situations. This should be obvious w/out much explication. And of course, we would all like to experience the emotion of love on a fairly constant basis . . . . . that is where correct action, thought and faith come in.
The New Testament disagrees with you. Those emotions are natural man's emotions. We are to put off the natural man and put on the new man in Christ.
Repressing natural emotions in a way that undermines their often legitimate and needed expression won't serve you well in the situations I outlined in my last post.

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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by John Tavner »

larsenb wrote: May 1st, 2021, 11:27 pm
John Tavner wrote: April 30th, 2021, 8:03 pm
larsenb wrote: April 30th, 2021, 7:36 pm
John Tavner wrote: April 30th, 2021, 7:12 pm

And you are missing the point. If you want to take it up with Jesus that is cool, I'm just telling you what scripture says:

James 1:20 19My beloved brothers, understand this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger, 20for man’s anger does not bring about the righteousness that God desires.

Boldly speaking you either choose to bear the name of Christ or bear the natural man - we all have a choice.
Don't think so. You are describing anger held onto that can and often does lead to bad actions.

Next time you see an 8 year old (as an example) being beaten for no good reason by an adult in your close vicinity, it will be interesting to see how you handle the anger welling up in your breast, and how much time you spend trying to quell your anger while the kid continues to be beaten.

And of course, I'd like to see how Cruiserdude handles the same situation ;)
Not being angry does not mean inaction- I'm not sure how you think that actions can only be followed by anger. Edit:To add to your child scenario - the question we should ask ourselves is "are we acting because we love the child or because we are angry at the adults actions?" One leads to righteousness, the other leads to mistakes. (end edit)

What you are doing is justifying your anger- which is literally what hte scriptures tell us we ought not do. I can get someone to stop beating a child without being angry.

Edit: finally, I'm not talking about holding onto anger at all - that means I am angry. I'm talking about becoming, so that anger no longer is a part of me through Christ and becoming charity- which is the love of God - the gift that if we don't have, we are considered nothing. (end edit)
Huh??

I'm not sure you've understood anything I've said. Where on earth did I say anything like: "actions can only be followed by anger"??

I'm not trying to justify anything.

Let me reiterate something I have said that would indicate emotions like anger, fear, love, etc., can arise instantaneously without any or very little thought. AND, they can be beneficial, provided they lead to corrective action.

First anger: Lets say you see your 4 year old daughter being beaten by a grown man for no reason. Are you claiming that you will not feel anger welling up in your breast, AND take immediate action to stop the man??

Next fear: Let's say that you are walking down a city street and you become aware of a lion suddenly running after you with jaws open, roaring and claws extended. Are you saying that fear will not well up in your breast which causes immediate adrenal discharge, your blood vessels to constrict, and your pulse to quicken, all of which aid you to launch into full flight away from danger or to valiantly meet the charge and defend yourself as best you can?

In both cases, anger and fear are coming to your aid in taking corrective action. Very little thought is involved that does not aid your defense of your daughter of flight from the lion. However, the adrenaline could also result in hyper thought that allows you to rapidly know what to do.

I see you as complicating the issue by trying force these categories into a strictly religious context.
You are assuming one has to act out of anger.

Charity is not an emotion it is a state of being. If while in that state of being something occurs anger is not the emotion that springs forth. How do I know? Because I've lived it - It is the pwoer of Christ working through us as we submit the natural man to Him and live by the Spirit.

So - I can see my child being beaten and act out of love to protect the child and not out of anger towards the one beating the child. You may think that is impossible, but that is why you act angrily and another who is in a state of charity will not. You are already giving yourself and tacit excuse to become angry - believing that you are to be acted upon and not to act (2 Nephi 2:26)

Fear is not a spirit of the Lord - the Lord does not give a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind (2 tim 1:7).

Again I have literally been in situations where people are deathly afraid and I am not and I am sitll able to act appropriately with confidence.

You are constantly giving examples of hte natural man reacting when we are supposed to be a "spiritual man." Can you see Jesus having these responses? Was He tempted, yes, but did He have those response and was being acted upon in the sitation He was in rather than acting? No, I do not believe He was. We can be tempted to be angry, but that comes from thought - not an "instantaneous feeling" - often there are spirits which seek to do so, but it isn't repressing an emotion if it is coming from the outside and other times there are moments when anger isn't even an option. As Charity takes over we react in the way appropriate to each situation, and like scripture says, the wrath of man does not bring forth the righteousness of God. Can God fix things, yep, can some things "seem" right? Yep, but was it done in the right spirit? Nope.

I'm not complicating anything - I'm just trusting hte in the Word.

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John Tavner
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Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by John Tavner »

larsenb wrote: May 1st, 2021, 11:30 pm
John Tavner wrote: April 30th, 2021, 8:06 pm
larsenb wrote: April 30th, 2021, 7:44 pm Basic human emotions like fear, anger, sexual feelings and of course, love, all have their proper and legitimate use in certain situations. This should be obvious w/out much explication. And of course, we would all like to experience the emotion of love on a fairly constant basis . . . . . that is where correct action, thought and faith come in.
The New Testament disagrees with you. Those emotions are natural man's emotions. We are to put off the natural man and put on the new man in Christ.
Repressing natural emotions in a way that undermines their often legitimate and needed expression won't serve you well in the situations I outlined in my last post.
Proverbs 14:12 “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.”

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