Anger. Good or Bad?

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 12975
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by Thinker »

”Anybody can become angry — that is easy, but to be angry with the right person and to the right degree and at the right time and for the right purpose, and in the right way — that is not within everybody's power and is not easy." - Aristotle (who’s thought to greatly influence the Bible)

Image

“Blessed are the meek.” The Greek word translated to meek actually meant something like “sheathed sword”... so rather, “Blessed are those who have ability to fight but don’t exercise that ability without self-control.”

User avatar
John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4154

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by John Tavner »

Silas wrote: October 4th, 2020, 4:54 pm
Zathura wrote: October 4th, 2020, 1:54 pm
Silas wrote: October 4th, 2020, 1:36 pm
Zathura wrote: October 4th, 2020, 12:28 pm
Sound stood. I won't change God to fit my personal views. I have the scriptures before me. Anger is sin.
It’s not the scriptures or God that I have a problem with. Just how you interpret them and what you think he is.
Haha you’re the one laying out conditions for the type of God you’ll accept. Pick and chose, craft god out of your own likeness
If you think it’s a sin to be angry about child rape then you’ve gone wrong.

Don’t allow your anger to control your behavior? Sure. Keep it in check? Definitely. Regain control over your emotions before deciding what to do? Absolutely.

Feel guilt over having natural feelings against an injustice? Nope. That’s all garbage.
Sure am Glad Jesus wasn't on the cross angry towards everyone and screaming things like "Do you see what I did for you?" "I healed you and all I did was teach truth and you crucify me, how dare you!" Instead He said forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.

We have emotions and it is natural, but the key word there is natural - we are to throw off the natural man and put on the new man. If we feel angry we can recognize it and still recognize that we don't need to be "justified" in what we are feeling. Christ is the one who should determine how we feel, for He is our God. If we let others control how we react by what they do, they become Lord. The key is to not condemn one another for it, but rather seek grace to change so we don't do it anymore. As our heart is turned to Him, we automatically begin to react with less anger and more with love. While I can recognize the terrible injustices that occur even to myself, when I still shine Jesus and show love to others in adversity (by bearing His name) then I am truly being a light to the world. If I get squeezed and Jesus comes out, that is a testimony. If I get squeezed and act like the world, then what is the point of being Christian? The world also gets angry at injustices or perceived injustices. Just look at all the riots. There is injustice, but it is all based on self-seeking. "I deserve." Thank God Jesus was not self-seeking, but sought others welfare. We too must throw off the natural man and put on Christ - we are told we can have the mind of Christ. It comes from grace. Again this isn't a condemnation of anyone who gets angry. We have all done it. The purpose is to encourage and uplift, for us to really shine. Imagine if Alma and Amulek as they saw all the people burn started getting angry and yelling and shouting at those who perpetrated such terrible crimes, they would say "see, they are just like us, but rather not only did the deaths serve as a testimony, but the attitudes of Amulek and Alma served as a testimony as well" - Notice God gave the judgment, not them.

I'm not saying it is easy, but in the end we are supposed to deny ourselves - that is the first step to coming after Him, then we are to pick up our cross and then we can come after Him..

User avatar
nightlight
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8407

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by nightlight »

Zeal > anger

Jesus flip over tables and drove out the filth.....He did this with strong emotion that I bet many thought was anger

Its like aggression....can a righteous man remain righteous in his aggression? Lol Yes. Just ask Mormon and his son.
I've had this conversation with others and they claimed, " well Mormon wasn't the aggressor, so he wasn't being aggressive".
Lol hopefully you guys can think that one through if this thought comes to you.

User avatar
John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4154

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by John Tavner »

nightlight wrote: October 4th, 2020, 7:32 pm Zeal > anger

Jesus flip over tables and drove out the filth.....He did this with strong emotion that I bet many thought was anger

Its like aggression....can a righteous man remain righteous in his aggression? Lol Yes. Just ask Mormon and his son.
I've had this conversation with others and they claimed, " well Mormon wasn't the aggressor, so he wasn't being aggressive".
Lol hopefully you guys can think that one through if this thought comes to you.
I really think we need to be careful with this analogy all the time. Jesus was love. What He did was out of love. He cleansed teh temple (representative of what happens to us when He cleanses us - He throws out the world and He is left)
If we attempt to justify our actions because Jesus flipped tables, but don't have love/charity, then we probably aren't doing it right - I guarantee you that most of us justify our actions without love. When we react, are we reacting because we are angry? Or because what we are doing is for that person's spiritual welfare/ the goal of eternal life for that person, and is it the best path. We should be very sure that hte Spirit is guiding us, It is very rare if ever this type of situation occurs. In three and a half years of ministry, being persecuted and attacked, Jesus did this once and it was still out of love- likely as a declaration of who He was - to give them a chance to see and to repent.

User avatar
nightlight
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8407

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by nightlight »

John Tavner wrote: October 4th, 2020, 7:35 pm
nightlight wrote: October 4th, 2020, 7:32 pm Zeal > anger

Jesus flip over tables and drove out the filth.....He did this with strong emotion that I bet many thought was anger

Its like aggression....can a righteous man remain righteous in his aggression? Lol Yes. Just ask Mormon and his son.
I've had this conversation with others and they claimed, " well Mormon wasn't the aggressor, so he wasn't being aggressive".
Lol hopefully you guys can think that one through if this thought comes to you.
I really think we need to be careful with this analogy all the time. Jesus was love. What He did was out of love. He cleansed teh temple (representative of what happens to us when He cleanses us - He throws out the world and He is left)
If we attempt to justify our actions because Jesus flipped tables, but don't have love/charity, then we probably aren't doing it right - I guarantee you that most of us justify our actions without love. When we react, are we reacting because we are angry? Or because what we are doing is for that person's spiritual welfare/ the goal of eternal life for that person, and is it the best path. We should be very sure that hte Spirit is guiding us, It is very rare if ever this type of situation occurs. In three and a half years of ministry, being persecuted and attacked, Jesus did this once and it was still out of love- likely as a declaration of who He was - to give them a chance to see and to repent.
1. One time is all that is recorded of him doing this, it would be foolish to claim how many times He did or didn't do anything

2. It was because of Justice He did that...not mercy. I get He loved them still, and His hand was no doubt stretch out afterwards . But its like saying Jesus sends folks to hell cuz He loves them....No, He sends them because He is bound by justice.

3. You're right...many a Christian pretends their anger is righteous zeal. I've probably felt this "righteous zeal" less than a handful of times in my life... and I've had a tumultuous(much of it was beyond my control)life.

Zathura
Follow the Prophet
Posts: 8801

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by Zathura »

If I had a dollar for every time I've seen a priesthood holder justify his objectively questionable behavior due to "righteous anger"..

PDrockton.M.A.
captain of 100
Posts: 482

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by PDrockton.M.A. »

Hell exists to burn out the iniquities of those who can be saved...and was created by those who can't.

Perpetual Anger is the road to hell. Get rid of it through prayer, fasting, or whatever it takes.

Forgive everyone. You cannot meet out justice because you cannot restore the victim. That is justice.

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 12975
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by Thinker »

Hopefully, after it’s been repeated by different people in various ways, it is clear that anger is best expressed when righteously.

That said, I want to share a time when I felt the spirit about anger. For many years I had stuffed anger down, & put up with abuse. For so long I didn’t even realize I was angry & that the person abusing me was wrong - I thought it was all my fault. I felt the Spirit that I needed to feel anger to assert myself, & stop the abuse - for myself & others.

Getting in touch with feelings is important. “Feelings buried alive never die.” Stuffed emotions still cause “motion” spiritually & physiologically. I also can see the temptation to get addicted to the sense of power anger can give - & to feel “justified” & obsessive anger can poison its vessel - so there must be other emotions stirred, like humility, gratitude etc.

It’s not all or nothing. Anger can be both good and bad. God created everything, including anger. It does serve a purpose, but like fire, can get out of hand if not careful.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10812
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by larsenb »

Silas wrote: October 3rd, 2020, 10:56 pm . . . . . I view anger as my internal injustice detector. Anger alerts me that a violation of some kind has taken place. Anger is a very useful servant. He makes sure I know when something is wrong. He’s an advisor, and a good one, but he is a terrible commander. If he gets in charge then he reacts to things that should be ignored and he runs a scorched earth campaign when a cautious defensive posture is needed.

I listen when anger has something to say to me and I thank him for his advice but I do not allow him to make the decisions.
This topic has come up before on this forum.

I side with Silas. Anger arises naturally and w/out too much, or any, thought involved; and its very much tied up with our sense of justice and fairness and seeking redress for wrongs. It is a powerful emotion. Unfortunately, it can fester and turn into hate, which is the real problem, not anger per se. You could perhaps redefine hatred as held-onto anger. It is also true, however, that anger can arise from a misperception of circumstances.

And Aristotle was right. Better learn how to control it and channel it such as taking action to achieve justice and right wrongs.

Further, a general idea of depression held by certain schools of psychology, is that it can arise from internalized anger; anger directed against one's self, leading even to self-destruction. An anger that could go totally unrecognized consciously, if ignored and not dealt with properly in the context that created it.

I've had a few experiences where I've had anger well up instantaneously upon seeing someone (or myself) being treated very badly and I've gone in immediately to the defense of the person so treated (or myself), and without an inkling of any preceding thought. In these cases, my actions achieved very quick satisfactory results; the anger then dissipated just as quick.

PDrockton.M.A.
captain of 100
Posts: 482

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by PDrockton.M.A. »

I believe in the Sacred Imagination. Some call it the place where our spiritual brain resides.

I envision a Heavenly Court. Then I take the evil spirits there to be cast out by the Heavenly Judge.

Try it. First focus on the trauma that by brought the anger... look for other negative emotions around it like fear, guilt, lust, hate, envy etc....

Take them all to Court and ask the Heavenly Judge to cast them out. Keep focusing on that traumatic experience and take it to Court until you see the memory without the emotional baggage..... it should feel neutral.

I can share more if it helps... let me know.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10812
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by larsenb »

PDrockton.M.A. wrote: October 4th, 2020, 9:32 pm I believe in the Sacred Imagination. Some call it the place where our spiritual brain resides.

I envision a Heavenly Court. Then I take the evil spirits there to be cast out by the Heavenly Judge.

Try it. First focus on the trauma that by brought the anger... look for other negative emotions around it like fear, guilt, lust, hate, envy etc....

Take them all to Court and ask the Heavenly Judge to cast them out. Keep focusing on that traumatic experience and take it to Court until you see the memory without the emotional baggage..... it should feel neutral.

I can share more if it helps... let me know.
I think Silas (and myself) are talking about instantaneous anger arising from a perception of injustice and unfairness or seeing someone including yourself being unjustly treated badly and even horribly. You seem to be talking about anger that is held onto and is festering.

For the later, your suggestion seems quite good.

For internalized anger that you are not consciously aware of, other means may be necessary; but applying to God to help clarify painful issues that may arise from this kind of anger, would undoubtedly also be a good course of action.

Silas
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1564

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by Silas »

Zathura wrote: October 4th, 2020, 8:53 pm If I had a dollar for every time I've seen a priesthood holder justify his objectively questionable behavior due to "righteous anger"..
There are a lot more frauds that pretend to be prophets than there are actual prophets. Doesn’t mean there is no such thing as a prophet.

Many weak willed men lack the discipline to be properly angry. Almost all men at some point in their lives. It is easy to excuse bad behavior and assume any time you are angry it’s justified because it’s what you want. And sometimes you can even make a good case for it.

But like all other passions a man has to take responsibility for his desires and he’s got to submit to God and his laws and subject those passions to their proper boundaries when he does this his energy can do a lot of good. Otherwise any good it accomplishes is quickly undone.

Should I feel ashamed and guilty for being sexually aroused by my wife? Should I repent of lust anytime I’m attracted to her? Of course not. I wouldn’t listen to any man who tells me otherwise. I’m submitting my sexual desires to God’s law and using them within the covenant of marriage and so it’s building a family and children and creating stability.

It’s true that men’s sexual desires have caused a lot of problems in this world. And men have come up with all kinds of reasons why their indulgences are okay when they are not. But it would be idiotic to say that therefore men should have no sexual desires at all. Any passionate feeling is the same. You don’t eliminate passion you put it under control. You make it serve a noble purpose by submitting to the laws of God. Trying to eliminate passion will either fail and result in a rebellious over indulgence or succeed and create a worthless weak and broken person that accomplishes nothing of value.

Juliet
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3701

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by Juliet »

I think instead of getting angry it is better to look to God for healing. This is coming from someone who has tried doing both. I have spent so much time being angry and feeling bitter instead of hearkening to the Holy Spirit that enticed me to trust in God and be grateful; I could write a book about it.

The devil provokes us to anger. But God gives us peace and the fruits of the spirit. AND He tells us what to do about it. He gives us commandments that if we follow will make the situation as good as it can possibly get. Jesus was brutally tortured and then murdered in cold blood and did not get angry. There is our precedent. He knew no one but God had the power to call him home. When God allows evil to happen to us; God allows it. The question then becomes, do we accept His will?

I can't always say that I have. But I can say those times that I didn't were the worst times of my life. The peace of looking to God and trusting in His will when other people hurt us is incomparable to any amount of justice a feeling or surge of anger can provide.

Some cases we are totally innocent when something bad happens. But other times we were part of the problem and had it coming. It is much easier to get angry than to recognize you are experiencing the consequences of not listening to the Holy Spirit, even if all the Holy Spirit was asking you to do was to be grateful for a circumstance and trust in God about it. It is also easier to repress your anger and pretend it is not there then to be honest enough to admit you have it in certain instances and seek God for healing from it.

I would say for the most part, anger occurs due to the lack of one's ability to accept consequences. I am not going to say righteous anger doesn't exist. But if it does exist, it better be moved by the Holy Spirit. Perhaps a time could arise when needing to rebuke someone; but not to harm them; but to save them. This would be a very rare circumstance and most likely only to occur with someone under one's stewardship.

User avatar
John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4154

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by John Tavner »

nightlight wrote: October 4th, 2020, 8:49 pm
John Tavner wrote: October 4th, 2020, 7:35 pm
nightlight wrote: October 4th, 2020, 7:32 pm Zeal > anger

Jesus flip over tables and drove out the filth.....He did this with strong emotion that I bet many thought was anger

Its like aggression....can a righteous man remain righteous in his aggression? Lol Yes. Just ask Mormon and his son.
I've had this conversation with others and they claimed, " well Mormon wasn't the aggressor, so he wasn't being aggressive".
Lol hopefully you guys can think that one through if this thought comes to you.
I really think we need to be careful with this analogy all the time. Jesus was love. What He did was out of love. He cleansed teh temple (representative of what happens to us when He cleanses us - He throws out the world and He is left)
If we attempt to justify our actions because Jesus flipped tables, but don't have love/charity, then we probably aren't doing it right - I guarantee you that most of us justify our actions without love. When we react, are we reacting because we are angry? Or because what we are doing is for that person's spiritual welfare/ the goal of eternal life for that person, and is it the best path. We should be very sure that hte Spirit is guiding us, It is very rare if ever this type of situation occurs. In three and a half years of ministry, being persecuted and attacked, Jesus did this once and it was still out of love- likely as a declaration of who He was - to give them a chance to see and to repent.
1. One time is all that is recorded of him doing this, it would be foolish to claim how many times He did or didn't do anything

2. It was because of Justice He did that...not mercy. I get He loved them still, and His hand was no doubt stretch out afterwards . But its like saying Jesus sends folks to hell cuz He loves them....No, He sends them because He is bound by justice.

3. You're right...many a Christian pretends their anger is righteous zeal. I've probably felt this "righteous zeal" less than a handful of times in my life... and I've had a tumultuous(much of it was beyond my control)life.
1) It is foolish to claim he did it more than this if it was only recorded once. Everywhere He went it is recorded that He went around doing "good" and healing etc..

2) Judgement is separation, if God was all about justice, then we would all go to hell.. It was mercy that God flooded the earth - for some you could see it as justice, but society had gotten to the point that righteousness had no chance to come forth - in other words His work and glory was no longer possible because of hte wickedness of mankind. It was mercy because future children would not have had a chance to choose good. Indeed, we are the ones who seek justice - there is enough attitude of justice everywhere. (as we judge so shall we be judged) The reason we seek Justice is because we haven't learned to forgive our enemy and love our enemy. The Justice comes at judgement when those who have not learned to forgive see themselves in perfect light and then torture themselves because they see their awful guilt. Justice comes when because they had so manyh opportunities to repent and changed, they refused to do so and thus they are judged in separation and their conscience does not allow them to be in the presence of God, they are miserable always seeking fulfillment but never finding it. God doesn't force anyone away form Him, He allows them to destroy themselves because they stop listening to the Spirit. When we come before Him in the last day, God isn't going to kick people out of heaven, they won't be able to be in heaven because of their inability to forgive themselves, they will see their own awful guilt. They will not have known the love of the Savior. He is the victim. When we sin, it is the Savior who we have sinned against.

PDrockton.M.A.
captain of 100
Posts: 482

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by PDrockton.M.A. »

May I suggest that all of us have a breaking point. Think of your Soul as a water pitcher... things keep building up, past traumas, current traumas, etc...

Every day you need to empty that pitcher as much as you can. Never let it get to the top.

Take those past traumas with their evil spirits to Court. Same with current traumas and provocations. In fact, when you feel anger well up in your chest take it to Court and rebuke it!

I would love to share the whole process I have learned with those that want to try it... free of course..no books to buy. No donations requested.

Freely I have been given, freely I will share.

If you want a live group Zoom with me just like this post and I will do it

User avatar
nightlight
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8407

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by nightlight »

John Tavner wrote: October 5th, 2020, 6:40 am
nightlight wrote: October 4th, 2020, 8:49 pm
John Tavner wrote: October 4th, 2020, 7:35 pm
nightlight wrote: October 4th, 2020, 7:32 pm Zeal > anger

Jesus flip over tables and drove out the filth.....He did this with strong emotion that I bet many thought was anger

Its like aggression....can a righteous man remain righteous in his aggression? Lol Yes. Just ask Mormon and his son.
I've had this conversation with others and they claimed, " well Mormon wasn't the aggressor, so he wasn't being aggressive".
Lol hopefully you guys can think that one through if this thought comes to you.
I really think we need to be careful with this analogy all the time. Jesus was love. What He did was out of love. He cleansed teh temple (representative of what happens to us when He cleanses us - He throws out the world and He is left)
If we attempt to justify our actions because Jesus flipped tables, but don't have love/charity, then we probably aren't doing it right - I guarantee you that most of us justify our actions without love. When we react, are we reacting because we are angry? Or because what we are doing is for that person's spiritual welfare/ the goal of eternal life for that person, and is it the best path. We should be very sure that hte Spirit is guiding us, It is very rare if ever this type of situation occurs. In three and a half years of ministry, being persecuted and attacked, Jesus did this once and it was still out of love- likely as a declaration of who He was - to give them a chance to see and to repent.
1. One time is all that is recorded of him doing this, it would be foolish to claim how many times He did or didn't do anything

2. It was because of Justice He did that...not mercy. I get He loved them still, and His hand was no doubt stretch out afterwards . But its like saying Jesus sends folks to hell cuz He loves them....No, He sends them because He is bound by justice.

3. You're right...many a Christian pretends their anger is righteous zeal. I've probably felt this "righteous zeal" less than a handful of times in my life... and I've had a tumultuous(much of it was beyond my control)life.
1) It is foolish to claim he did it more than this if it was only recorded once. Everywhere He went it is recorded that He went around doing "good" and healing etc..

2) Judgement is separation, if God was all about justice, then we would all go to hell.. It was mercy that God flooded the earth - for some you could see it as justice, but society had gotten to the point that righteousness had no chance to come forth - in other words His work and glory was no longer possible because of hte wickedness of mankind. It was mercy because future children would not have had a chance to choose good. Indeed, we are the ones who seek justice - there is enough attitude of justice everywhere. (as we judge so shall we be judged) The reason we seek Justice is because we haven't learned to forgive our enemy and love our enemy. The Justice comes at judgement when those who have not learned to forgive see themselves in perfect light and then torture themselves because they see their awful guilt. Justice comes when because they had so manyh opportunities to repent and changed, they refused to do so and thus they are judged in separation and their conscience does not allow them to be in the presence of God, they are miserable always seeking fulfillment but never finding it. God doesn't force anyone away form Him, He allows them to destroy themselves because they stop listening to the Spirit. When we come before Him in the last day, God isn't going to kick people out of heaven, they won't be able to be in heaven because of their inability to forgive themselves, they will see their own awful guilt. They will not have known the love of the Savior. He is the victim. When we sin, it is the Savior who we have sinned against.
Lol I never claimed how many times he did do the thing.....

I like you , but it seems you assume other people's minds sometimes....do you think its the Spirit telling you what others think?

Because one feels zeal doesn't mean that person it trying to get justice. If you've ever had to protect your life from someone trying to take it for nothing you've done....you'll understand what zeal is.

Justice is not ours....I get that, bro

Also...
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
^^^^^^^^^^^

User avatar
John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4154

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by John Tavner »

nightlight wrote: October 5th, 2020, 11:08 am
John Tavner wrote: October 5th, 2020, 6:40 am
nightlight wrote: October 4th, 2020, 8:49 pm
John Tavner wrote: October 4th, 2020, 7:35 pm

I really think we need to be careful with this analogy all the time. Jesus was love. What He did was out of love. He cleansed teh temple (representative of what happens to us when He cleanses us - He throws out the world and He is left)
If we attempt to justify our actions because Jesus flipped tables, but don't have love/charity, then we probably aren't doing it right - I guarantee you that most of us justify our actions without love. When we react, are we reacting because we are angry? Or because what we are doing is for that person's spiritual welfare/ the goal of eternal life for that person, and is it the best path. We should be very sure that hte Spirit is guiding us, It is very rare if ever this type of situation occurs. In three and a half years of ministry, being persecuted and attacked, Jesus did this once and it was still out of love- likely as a declaration of who He was - to give them a chance to see and to repent.
1. One time is all that is recorded of him doing this, it would be foolish to claim how many times He did or didn't do anything

2. It was because of Justice He did that...not mercy. I get He loved them still, and His hand was no doubt stretch out afterwards . But its like saying Jesus sends folks to hell cuz He loves them....No, He sends them because He is bound by justice.

3. You're right...many a Christian pretends their anger is righteous zeal. I've probably felt this "righteous zeal" less than a handful of times in my life... and I've had a tumultuous(much of it was beyond my control)life.
1) It is foolish to claim he did it more than this if it was only recorded once. Everywhere He went it is recorded that He went around doing "good" and healing etc..

2) Judgement is separation, if God was all about justice, then we would all go to hell.. It was mercy that God flooded the earth - for some you could see it as justice, but society had gotten to the point that righteousness had no chance to come forth - in other words His work and glory was no longer possible because of hte wickedness of mankind. It was mercy because future children would not have had a chance to choose good. Indeed, we are the ones who seek justice - there is enough attitude of justice everywhere. (as we judge so shall we be judged) The reason we seek Justice is because we haven't learned to forgive our enemy and love our enemy. The Justice comes at judgement when those who have not learned to forgive see themselves in perfect light and then torture themselves because they see their awful guilt. Justice comes when because they had so manyh opportunities to repent and changed, they refused to do so and thus they are judged in separation and their conscience does not allow them to be in the presence of God, they are miserable always seeking fulfillment but never finding it. God doesn't force anyone away form Him, He allows them to destroy themselves because they stop listening to the Spirit. When we come before Him in the last day, God isn't going to kick people out of heaven, they won't be able to be in heaven because of their inability to forgive themselves, they will see their own awful guilt. They will not have known the love of the Savior. He is the victim. When we sin, it is the Savior who we have sinned against.
Lol I never claimed how many times he did do the thing.....

I like you , but it seems you assume other people's minds sometimes....do you think its the Spirit telling you what others think?

Because one feels zeal doesn't mean that person it trying to get justice. If you've ever had to protect your life from someone trying to take it for nothing you've done....you'll understand what zeal is.

Justice is not ours....I get that, bro

Also...
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Agreed, you never said how many times He did do the thing, but with your first comment it seems like you implied that he did it more than once because you said it was foolish to say He only did it once. I'm making the argument that it is not likely Christ did it more than once because there is no recording and people accused Him of being a wine-bibber and hanging out with immoral people, they never accuse Him of being wrathful as far as I am aware.

People often use zeal as an excuse and confuse zeal with anger. One of the hardest things to be is honest with ourselves. In my youth I was full of zeal and some times it was anger that I claimed was "zeal" in both cases I did many foolish things - my heart was Good most of the time an was well intentioned when I didn't deceive myself and God forgives, but it was still foolish. Meekness is key (I'm not saying you lack meekness or are dishonest with yourself, I'm just making a statement)

I'm not sure I understand your last scripture quotation of Matt 7 or in what you intend to convey by that.

That said, these are my thoughts on it: Most of those who "do" don't "know" God, they think their works are what save them. When they become, their fruit is naturally good - they are a good tree and see that Christ is the Root. So there are many that may have faith in the name of Jesus and may even perform miracles in His name, but they have not let the Lrod change them inside - missing the point of the Gospel, which is transformation - to die and to live again bearing the name of Chrsit, being the light of the world the same way Christ was the light. So they used the Lord's name, but never knew Him/ had relationship with Him (JST).

User avatar
nightlight
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8407

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by nightlight »

John Tavner wrote: October 5th, 2020, 11:49 am
nightlight wrote: October 5th, 2020, 11:08 am
John Tavner wrote: October 5th, 2020, 6:40 am
nightlight wrote: October 4th, 2020, 8:49 pm

1. One time is all that is recorded of him doing this, it would be foolish to claim how many times He did or didn't do anything

2. It was because of Justice He did that...not mercy. I get He loved them still, and His hand was no doubt stretch out afterwards . But its like saying Jesus sends folks to hell cuz He loves them....No, He sends them because He is bound by justice.

3. You're right...many a Christian pretends their anger is righteous zeal. I've probably felt this "righteous zeal" less than a handful of times in my life... and I've had a tumultuous(much of it was beyond my control)life.
1) It is foolish to claim he did it more than this if it was only recorded once. Everywhere He went it is recorded that He went around doing "good" and healing etc..

2) Judgement is separation, if God was all about justice, then we would all go to hell.. It was mercy that God flooded the earth - for some you could see it as justice, but society had gotten to the point that righteousness had no chance to come forth - in other words His work and glory was no longer possible because of hte wickedness of mankind. It was mercy because future children would not have had a chance to choose good. Indeed, we are the ones who seek justice - there is enough attitude of justice everywhere. (as we judge so shall we be judged) The reason we seek Justice is because we haven't learned to forgive our enemy and love our enemy. The Justice comes at judgement when those who have not learned to forgive see themselves in perfect light and then torture themselves because they see their awful guilt. Justice comes when because they had so manyh opportunities to repent and changed, they refused to do so and thus they are judged in separation and their conscience does not allow them to be in the presence of God, they are miserable always seeking fulfillment but never finding it. God doesn't force anyone away form Him, He allows them to destroy themselves because they stop listening to the Spirit. When we come before Him in the last day, God isn't going to kick people out of heaven, they won't be able to be in heaven because of their inability to forgive themselves, they will see their own awful guilt. They will not have known the love of the Savior. He is the victim. When we sin, it is the Savior who we have sinned against.
Lol I never claimed how many times he did do the thing.....

I like you , but it seems you assume other people's minds sometimes....do you think its the Spirit telling you what others think?

Because one feels zeal doesn't mean that person it trying to get justice. If you've ever had to protect your life from someone trying to take it for nothing you've done....you'll understand what zeal is.

Justice is not ours....I get that, bro

Also...
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Agreed, you never said how many times He did do the thing, but with your first comment it seems like you implied that he did it more than once because you said it was foolish to say He only did it once. I'm making the argument that it is not likely Christ did it more than once because there is no recording and people accused Him of being a wine-bibber and hanging out with immoral people, they never accuse Him of being wrathful as far as I am aware.

People often use zeal as an excuse and confuse zeal with anger. One of the hardest things to be is honest with ourselves. In my youth I was full of zeal and some times it was anger that I claimed was "zeal" in both cases I did many foolish things - my heart was Good most of the time an was well intentioned when I didn't deceive myself and God forgives, but it was still foolish. Meekness is key (I'm not saying you lack meekness or are dishonest with yourself, I'm just making a statement)

I'm not sure I understand your last scripture quotation of Matt 7 or in what you intend to convey by that.

That said, these are my thoughts on it: Most of those who "do" don't "know" God, they think their works are what save them. When they become, their fruit is naturally good - they are a good tree and see that Christ is the Root. So there are many that may have faith in the name of Jesus and may even perform miracles in His name, but they have not let the Lrod change them inside - missing the point of the Gospel, which is transformation - to die and to live again bearing the name of Chrsit, being the light of the world the same way Christ was the light. So they used the Lord's name, but never knew Him/ had relationship with Him (JST).
My point is He does kick people out...

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

User avatar
inho
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3286
Location: in a galaxy far, far away

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by inho »

inho wrote: June 25th, 2017, 10:58 am Orson Pratt in Millenial Star vol. 28:473-475; July 28, 1866:
For wise purposes, God has given you appetites and passions, and has given you laws to control the same. Do not pray for these attributes of your nature to be taken away; but pray for strength and grace to submit them to the will of him who has given them to you.
Anger is a passion wisely given to intelligent beings, intended for a good purpose but it is one easily perverted by fallen beings into an instrument of much evil. It is a passion pertaining to the Almighty who is angry with the wicked every day. Righteous anger is a feeling of indignation against sin, a feeling of justice, a feeling that the evil-doer merits punishment. This kind of anger is justifiable, whether it exists in the bosom of God, angels, or men: but anger founded upon any other principle is sinful, and when cultivated and indulged out of its proper channel, it brings misery and wretchedness upon all its unhappy votaries. Because we are so liable to sin through an improper indulgence of anger, is it right to pray for a destruction of the attribute? It certainly is not; for if man were dispossessed of this attribute, he would be unfit for a kingdom, where justice and judgment were the characteristics of the throne; he would be unfit for the society of the heavenly hosts, unfit for celestial, terrestrial, or telestial glory. Anger founded on justice and properly governed, is essential to the happiness of every kingdom; without it there could be no exaltation, no glory, and man would cease to be man, and dwindle into a non-descript something, beneath the animal creation.

User avatar
John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4154

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by John Tavner »

nightlight wrote: October 5th, 2020, 12:26 pm
John Tavner wrote: October 5th, 2020, 11:49 am
nightlight wrote: October 5th, 2020, 11:08 am
John Tavner wrote: October 5th, 2020, 6:40 am

1) It is foolish to claim he did it more than this if it was only recorded once. Everywhere He went it is recorded that He went around doing "good" and healing etc..

2) Judgement is separation, if God was all about justice, then we would all go to hell.. It was mercy that God flooded the earth - for some you could see it as justice, but society had gotten to the point that righteousness had no chance to come forth - in other words His work and glory was no longer possible because of hte wickedness of mankind. It was mercy because future children would not have had a chance to choose good. Indeed, we are the ones who seek justice - there is enough attitude of justice everywhere. (as we judge so shall we be judged) The reason we seek Justice is because we haven't learned to forgive our enemy and love our enemy. The Justice comes at judgement when those who have not learned to forgive see themselves in perfect light and then torture themselves because they see their awful guilt. Justice comes when because they had so manyh opportunities to repent and changed, they refused to do so and thus they are judged in separation and their conscience does not allow them to be in the presence of God, they are miserable always seeking fulfillment but never finding it. God doesn't force anyone away form Him, He allows them to destroy themselves because they stop listening to the Spirit. When we come before Him in the last day, God isn't going to kick people out of heaven, they won't be able to be in heaven because of their inability to forgive themselves, they will see their own awful guilt. They will not have known the love of the Savior. He is the victim. When we sin, it is the Savior who we have sinned against.
Lol I never claimed how many times he did do the thing.....

I like you , but it seems you assume other people's minds sometimes....do you think its the Spirit telling you what others think?

Because one feels zeal doesn't mean that person it trying to get justice. If you've ever had to protect your life from someone trying to take it for nothing you've done....you'll understand what zeal is.

Justice is not ours....I get that, bro

Also...
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Agreed, you never said how many times He did do the thing, but with your first comment it seems like you implied that he did it more than once because you said it was foolish to say He only did it once. I'm making the argument that it is not likely Christ did it more than once because there is no recording and people accused Him of being a wine-bibber and hanging out with immoral people, they never accuse Him of being wrathful as far as I am aware.

People often use zeal as an excuse and confuse zeal with anger. One of the hardest things to be is honest with ourselves. In my youth I was full of zeal and some times it was anger that I claimed was "zeal" in both cases I did many foolish things - my heart was Good most of the time an was well intentioned when I didn't deceive myself and God forgives, but it was still foolish. Meekness is key (I'm not saying you lack meekness or are dishonest with yourself, I'm just making a statement)

I'm not sure I understand your last scripture quotation of Matt 7 or in what you intend to convey by that.

That said, these are my thoughts on it: Most of those who "do" don't "know" God, they think their works are what save them. When they become, their fruit is naturally good - they are a good tree and see that Christ is the Root. So there are many that may have faith in the name of Jesus and may even perform miracles in His name, but they have not let the Lrod change them inside - missing the point of the Gospel, which is transformation - to die and to live again bearing the name of Chrsit, being the light of the world the same way Christ was the light. So they used the Lord's name, but never knew Him/ had relationship with Him (JST).
My point is He does kick people out...

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
That is a fair assumption and I can see why you believe that. Personally that is not how I read it - I don't see the "depart" as a command. I don't see Him as saying "get out" it's more of - I'm not who you thought I was, you thought you could be righteous by doing and not by my name, you probably won't enjoy it here so unless you know me, you won't be able to handle my presence, you can go, you workers of iniquity (since He is King) - I do not require you here anymore it would be too painful for you because of your iniquities.

User avatar
Thinker
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 12975
Location: The Universe - wherever that is.

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by Thinker »

“A rich person is one with rich emotions.”
Emotional intelligence is said to have more influence on success than IQ.
My guess is that many of us in the church (UT had the highest rate) have struggled with things like depression. Depression is thought to be anger turned inward. This is a generalization but of all the places I’ve lived, I’d say most people in Utah are superficially sweet - very careful not to offend someone (though there’s gossip). And I sense a lot of holding in of emotions. “Feelings buried alive never die.”

Anger is a relatively common emotion - one of the main ones besides happy, sad, excited, scared. Today I felt anger from stress of things going on in this country, & my area, as well as injustices & conflicts in friendships & family, & stress of responsibilities. It helped to go on a walk & cool off - sort my thoughts, decompress... & humor helped too...

I’d never do this but sometimes I feel like it & of course this was staged (he didn’t really slap), but I imagine many people feel this way at times. Better to acknowledge & laugh about it than actually do it: ;)
https://youtu.be/hHZvUeAdzeI

For our kids, we got this DVD that teaches good character development like recognizing anger - but in a humorous way. This song comes on after the kid throws a fit/yelling etc...
https://youtu.be/G5o62nNrmKI

PDrockton.M.A.
captain of 100
Posts: 482

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by PDrockton.M.A. »

My kids grew up on Bright Music.... great stuff!

User avatar
TheDuke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5863
Location: Eastern Sodom Suburbs

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by TheDuke »

I guess someone needs to define anger Oxford says "a strong feeling of annoyance, displeasure, or hostility". there is nothing naturally unrighteous in these feelings as defined. and it doesn't define taking any action. So, I agree, there is nothing wrong with feeling anger, when it is within prescribed bounds. but, I also agree, that acting on it, unbridled is wrong.

I think it is very pious for people here, to talk so Christ-like, when I've seen the same folks all discuss on this forum, in what seems like "anger" at least in tones. So, maybe we all just have different understandings of the definition.

Frankly, there are times when anger, and acting on it is the best or only course of action. Silly to say, sure pull the trigger, but don't be angry? Ok, I'll forgive you while your bleeding out on the floor????

I have a problem with anger, I recognize it and try very hard to put it in its place. My problem is when I get angry and it isn't right, and I either act on it (bad choice every time) without gaining a cool head, or letting it fester and affects those around me and puts a damper between me and the Spirit. But, occasionally, when I act on it, in this telestial sphere, it gets the job done and improves the otherwise out-of-control situation. I think the term I learned years ago (when it was in vogue) was situational ethics. I guess I'm old school and find myself surrounded often by non-celestial beings.

User avatar
John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4154

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by John Tavner »

TheDuke wrote: October 19th, 2020, 11:30 pm I guess someone needs to define anger Oxford says "a strong feeling of annoyance, displeasure, or hostility". there is nothing naturally unrighteous in these feelings as defined. and it doesn't define taking any action. So, I agree, there is nothing wrong with feeling anger, when it is within prescribed bounds. but, I also agree, that acting on it, unbridled is wrong.

I think it is very pious for people here, to talk so Christ-like, when I've seen the same folks all discuss on this forum, in what seems like "anger" at least in tones. So, maybe we all just have different understandings of the definition.

Frankly, there are times when anger, and acting on it is the best or only course of action. Silly to say, sure pull the trigger, but don't be angry? Ok, I'll forgive you while your bleeding out on the floor????

I have a problem with anger, I recognize it and try very hard to put it in its place. My problem is when I get angry and it isn't right, and I either act on it (bad choice every time) without gaining a cool head, or letting it fester and affects those around me and puts a damper between me and the Spirit. But, occasionally, when I act on it, in this telestial sphere, it gets the job done and improves the otherwise out-of-control situation. I think the term I learned years ago (when it was in vogue) was situational ethics. I guess I'm old school and find myself surrounded often by non-celestial beings.
The scriptures also teach to "be Holy" and to "be ye therefore perfect." No one here is saying they've never been angry. What we are told is to not let that sun set on our anger - 26 Can ye be angry, and not sin? let not the sun go down upon your wrath; (Eph 4:26 JST) It may be a natural reaction (key word, natural), but as we grow - I've seen this in my own life there are things I used to be angry about, that now, it doesn't rile me in the slightest - we are no longer are angry or are less angry. it is by the grace of God that I am changed. "For where sin abounds, grace abounds more." If we are not seeking the grace of God to change us, then what are we expecting? Do we not realize that the same spirit that is in this life is the same one that will be with us in the next? If we are angry about things here, why not there? We need to get heaven into us, here, so we can have a heaven there.

Love, like Godly love, not man's love, changes situations. It changes hearts.

1 Cor 3 :18 “Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.”

User avatar
Jonesy
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1530
Contact:

Re: Anger. Good or Bad?

Post by Jonesy »

Just to add on this discussion in a broad sense, the spirit of contention is at work in the world. The devil uses this energy such as the riots/protests for his own purposes but we must remain at peace and not take part in the anger rising in the world at this time. Instead, we need to encourage to repent and find more faith, hope, and charity in our hearts. It can’t be overstated. We need this more than anything in the years ahead.

Post Reply