WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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AZRob
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by AZRob »

Pazooka wrote: October 13th, 2021, 4:18 pm And then you have the name “Feast of Tabernacles” of the Fall Feasts. Jesus being tabernacled at that time isn’t so far-fetched.
It's far-fetched. Even without mentioning Pratt, one can see that Jesus was the final Passover sacrificial lamb. Therefore He died during Passover. Per Book of Mormon, and already mentioned by Silver Pie, the birth and death are in the same season of the year, and even the same day +/- a few days for differences in Hebrew and new world calendars. April 6 fits nicely in all cases.

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Pazooka
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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AZRob wrote: October 13th, 2021, 4:42 pm
Pazooka wrote: October 13th, 2021, 4:18 pm And then you have the name “Feast of Tabernacles” of the Fall Feasts. Jesus being tabernacled at that time isn’t so far-fetched.
It's far-fetched. Even without mentioning Pratt, one can see that Jesus was the final Passover sacrificial lamb. Therefore He died during Passover. Per Book of Mormon, and already mentioned by Silver Pie, the birth and death are in the same season of the year, and even the same day +/- a few days for differences in Hebrew and new world calendars. April 6 fits nicely in all cases.
Yeah, he undoubtedly died at Passover. But there’s not really anything to indicate he was born then. Quite the contrary.

AZRob
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Pazooka wrote: October 13th, 2021, 4:49 pm
AZRob wrote: October 13th, 2021, 4:42 pm
Pazooka wrote: October 13th, 2021, 4:18 pm And then you have the name “Feast of Tabernacles” of the Fall Feasts. Jesus being tabernacled at that time isn’t so far-fetched.
It's far-fetched. Even without mentioning Pratt, one can see that Jesus was the final Passover sacrificial lamb. Therefore He died during Passover. Per Book of Mormon, and already mentioned by Silver Pie, the birth and death are in the same season of the year, and even the same day +/- a few days for differences in Hebrew and new world calendars. April 6 fits nicely in all cases.
Yeah, he undoubtedly died at Passover. But there’s not really anything to indicate he was born then. Quite the contrary.
Again, you missed Silver Pie's quotes from the Book of Mormon, which is the contrary to your contrarian position. She referenced 3 Nephi 2: 7 - 8 followed by 3 Nephi 8:5. The birth and death were closely linked on the calendar to within a few days of the year. But yes, other than that there are no sources, official or unofficial, to corroborate a birth date.

You mentioned above what a good point she made. Why change your tune now?

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Pazooka
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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AZRob wrote: October 13th, 2021, 4:59 pm
Pazooka wrote: October 13th, 2021, 4:49 pm
AZRob wrote: October 13th, 2021, 4:42 pm
Pazooka wrote: October 13th, 2021, 4:18 pm And then you have the name “Feast of Tabernacles” of the Fall Feasts. Jesus being tabernacled at that time isn’t so far-fetched.
It's far-fetched. Even without mentioning Pratt, one can see that Jesus was the final Passover sacrificial lamb. Therefore He died during Passover. Per Book of Mormon, and already mentioned by Silver Pie, the birth and death are in the same season of the year, and even the same day +/- a few days for differences in Hebrew and new world calendars. April 6 fits nicely in all cases.
Yeah, he undoubtedly died at Passover. But there’s not really anything to indicate he was born then. Quite the contrary.
Again, you missed Silver Pie's quotes from the Book of Mormon, which is the contrary to your contrarian position. She referenced 3 Nephi 2: 7 - 8 followed by 3 Nephi 8:5. The birth and death were closely linked on the calendar to within a few days of the year. But yes, other than that there are no sources, official or unofficial, to corroborate a birth date.

You mentioned above what a good point she made. Why change your tune now?
I think the first time around, when I acknowledged Silver Pie’s point, I was just hasty. 3 Nephi 2:7-8 says they began “to reckon their time from this PERIOD when the sign was given.” I mean...think about it. This isn’t the first time the people of the BofM started to reckon their time according to an event. They did this when Lehi left Jerusalem and when the reign of the judges began. They kept time after the Hebrew tradition, meaning that the moon signaled their months and days. It would have been talking about their keeping track of the *years* from the time of the sign and nothing more. Just like it says in the text “nine years had passed away” or, in essence, in the ninth year from when the sign was given.

This should be made even more clear by reading 3 Nephi 8:5, where the signs of His death appear in the “thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day.” Jesus began His ministry at age 33. If you’re under the impression that he was born in April (usually the 1st month acc to the Hebrew calendar), then his mission was 4 years. But we know that it wasn’t. Him being born in September would make His ministry 3 1/2 years, a very significant, prophetically aligned, amount of time.

AZRob
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Pazooka wrote: October 13th, 2021, 5:34 pm I think the first time around, when I acknowledged Silver Pie’s point, I was just hasty. 3 Nephi 2:7-8 says they began “to reckon their time from this PERIOD when the sign was given.” I mean...think about it. This isn’t the first time the people of the BofM started to reckon their time according to an event. They did this when Lehi left Jerusalem and when the reign of the judges began. They kept time after the Hebrew tradition, meaning that the moon signaled their months and days. It would have been talking about their keeping track of the *years* from the time of the sign and nothing more. Just like it says in the text “nine years had passed away” or, in essence, in the ninth year from when the sign was given.

This should be made even more clear by reading 3 Nephi 8:5, where the signs of His death appear in the “thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day.” Jesus began His ministry at age 33. If you’re under the impression that he was born in April (usually the 1st month acc to the Hebrew calendar), then his mission was 4 years. But we know that it wasn’t. Him being born in September would make His ministry 3 1/2 years, a very significant, prophetically aligned, amount of time.
Okay, I see where you're going with this. You see the calendar time in general terms. I can't see it that way now that I've seen other events happen to the day with regularity. Examples:

1. Lehi left Jerusalem 600 years before Christ's birth. That would be 600 years, 0 months, 0 days, so also during a Passover, a great and symbolic time to be on the move. It would also explain why he couldn't simply go back and get the plates himself, but sent his sons instead. His exodus was a timeline marker.

2. Samuel the Lamanite said that Christ would be born in 5 years (0 months, 0 days). This specificity is what emboldened wicked Nephites to give the day that the righteous ones would be put to death. After all, it was spoken by the righteous people's own prophet, so that would be fair in the eyes of the wicked, right? It was fulfilled precisely to the day.

So when 3 Nephi mentions anything involving days, I'm going to sit up and take note. If you don't believe these things matter, you should take a look at John Pratt's calendar of everything. It may not be 100% accurate, but that didn't keep him from trying. Link here: https://johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/dates.html Note that these are all specific days, and some are even to the quarter-day.

Also note that years and months were counted differently. The Hebrew calendar places extra months along the way, but every year has two solstices and two equinoxes so it's hard to screw up the count of years. Maybe it's nothing more than that you're seeing a squishy female interpretation of counting which consists of throwing numbers around and I'm seeing hard numbers carefully pored over by a noted historian for whom the book was named. In any case, our perspectives are rather different.

In my opinion, the 3.5 year ministry began during the fall festivals in Jesus' 30th year, and ended just before the 33rd year concluded at the Passover and spring festivals. Again, the death was the final Passover lamb sacrifice.

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Pazooka
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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AZRob wrote: October 13th, 2021, 6:09 pm
Pazooka wrote: October 13th, 2021, 5:34 pm I think the first time around, when I acknowledged Silver Pie’s point, I was just hasty. 3 Nephi 2:7-8 says they began “to reckon their time from this PERIOD when the sign was given.” I mean...think about it. This isn’t the first time the people of the BofM started to reckon their time according to an event. They did this when Lehi left Jerusalem and when the reign of the judges began. They kept time after the Hebrew tradition, meaning that the moon signaled their months and days. It would have been talking about their keeping track of the *years* from the time of the sign and nothing more. Just like it says in the text “nine years had passed away” or, in essence, in the ninth year from when the sign was given.

This should be made even more clear by reading 3 Nephi 8:5, where the signs of His death appear in the “thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day.” Jesus began His ministry at age 33. If you’re under the impression that he was born in April (usually the 1st month acc to the Hebrew calendar), then his mission was 4 years. But we know that it wasn’t. Him being born in September would make His ministry 3 1/2 years, a very significant, prophetically aligned, amount of time.
Okay, I see where you're going with this. You see the calendar time in general terms. I can't see it that way now that I've seen other events happen to the day with regularity. Examples:

1. Lehi left Jerusalem 600 years before Christ's birth. That would be 600 years, 0 months, 0 days, so also during a Passover, a great and symbolic time to be on the move. It would also explain why he couldn't simply go back and get the plates himself, but sent his sons instead. His exodus was a timeline marker.

2. Samuel the Lamanite said that Christ would be born in 5 years (0 months, 0 days). This specificity is what emboldened wicked Nephites to give the day that the righteous ones would be put to death. After all, it was spoken by the righteous people's own prophet, so that would be fair in the eyes of the wicked, right? It was fulfilled precisely to the day.

So when 3 Nephi mentions anything involving days, I'm going to sit up and take note. If you don't believe these things matter, you should take a look at John Pratt's calendar of everything. It may not be 100% accurate, but that didn't keep him from trying. Link here: https://johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/dates.html Note that these are all specific days, and some are even to the quarter-day.

Also note that years and months were counted differently. The Hebrew calendar places extra months along the way, but every year has two solstices and two equinoxes so it's hard to screw up the count of years. Maybe it's nothing more than that you're seeing a squishy female interpretation of counting which consists of throwing numbers around and I'm seeing hard numbers carefully pored over by a noted historian for whom the book was named. In any case, our perspectives are rather different.

In my opinion, the 3.5 year ministry began during the fall festivals in Jesus' 30th year, and ended just before the 33rd year concluded at the Passover and spring festivals. Again, the death was the final Passover lamb sacrifice.
You basically acknowledged that Jesus was born in the Spring and died in the Spring and then opined that he had a 3.5 year ministry. Is that a male version of a “squishy female interpretation of counting”?

buffalo_girl
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Bethlehem 2015
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Jerusalem 2013
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Pazooka
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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buffalo_girl wrote: October 13th, 2021, 8:02 pm Bethlehem 2015
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Jerusalem 2013
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Tishrei is the month corresponding with our September/October. There are rules for the tithing of lambs born before and after Tishrei 1, according to the Mishnah.

Are sheep better equipped to handle severe heat and drought or the occasional snow-storm in a, normally, more temperate region? Couldn’t they survive either with proper care?
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AZRob
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Pazooka wrote: October 13th, 2021, 7:54 pm You basically acknowledged that Jesus was born in the Spring and died in the Spring and then opined that he had a 3.5 year ministry. Is that a male version of a “squishy female interpretation of counting”?
Not squishy at all, unless you think his ministry was from the day he was born. Why would a birth date have anything to do with a ministry timeline? I'm not following. Here's a possible set of dates:

April 6, 1 BC - birth
September, AD 29 - baptism and prep for ministry
April, AD 30 - ministry
April 3, AD 33 - death

The full ministry was only three years but the 3.5 years (roughly) would be counted from baptism to fulfill your idea that 3.5 years is significant.

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Pazooka
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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AZRob wrote: October 14th, 2021, 12:27 am
Pazooka wrote: October 13th, 2021, 7:54 pm You basically acknowledged that Jesus was born in the Spring and died in the Spring and then opined that he had a 3.5 year ministry. Is that a male version of a “squishy female interpretation of counting”?
Not squishy at all, unless you think his ministry was from the day he was born. Why would a birth date have anything to do with a ministry timeline? I'm not following. Here's a possible set of dates:

April 6, 1 BC - birth
September, AD 29 - baptism and prep for ministry
April, AD 30 - ministry
April 3, AD 33 - death

The full ministry was only three years but the 3.5 years (roughly) would be counted from baptism to fulfill your idea that 3.5 years is significant.
That’s nonsensical

buffalo_girl
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Are sheep better equipped to handle severe heat and drought or the occasional snow-storm in a, normally, more temperate region? Couldn’t they survive either with proper care?
Adult sheep would, but not newborn lambs. They are extremely vulnerable for several days after being born. If the ewes do not have proper nutrition - especially at the end of their gestation period - they will have difficulty giving birth, and if they survive will not have milk for the lambs.

I have a small flock of sheep here in the upper Great Plains. Early on, I made a lot of assumptions about sheep which have proven wrong. Sheep do need attentive shepherds. And...it doesn't hurt to have extra help during lambing.

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Pazooka
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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buffalo_girl wrote: October 14th, 2021, 10:39 am
Are sheep better equipped to handle severe heat and drought or the occasional snow-storm in a, normally, more temperate region? Couldn’t they survive either with proper care?
Adult sheep would, but not newborn lambs. They are extremely vulnerable for several days after being born. If the ewes do not have proper nutrition - especially at the end of their gestation period - they will have difficulty giving birth, and if they survive will not have milk for the lambs.

I have a small flock of sheep here in the upper Great Plains. Early on, I made a lot of assumptions about sheep which have proven wrong. Sheep do need attentive shepherds. And...it doesn't hurt to have extra help during lambing.
But obviously lambs are being born in the month of Tishri and obviously Bethlehem is not the same climate as the Great Plains. It is more temperate, despite all the pics of freak snow storms.

buffalo_girl
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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But obviously lambs are being born in the month of Tishri and obviously Bethlehem is not the same climate as the Great Plains. It is more temperate, despite all the pics of freak snow storms.
Not sure what appears to be a bit of ire.

Interestingly, 'a lamb' is considered 'a lamb' until it is a one-year old. A 'market' lamb would need to have put on weight and proven healthy to be considered property to be sold and taxed. (Newborn lambs are maybe 5lbs at most, and wobbly little things.) A year-old ram 'lamb' was the preferred sacrificial lamb for Passover. They are mature in stature, but still without the combative instincts of a full-grown ram.

As with the actual date of The Lord's return, we may have to wait to find out exactly when the infant Jesus was born in Bethlehem or where the Wise Men visited him as a 'young child' - whether in Bethlehem or in Nazareth.
Last edited by buffalo_girl on October 14th, 2021, 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Pazooka
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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buffalo_girl wrote: October 14th, 2021, 1:05 pm
But obviously lambs are being born in the month of Tishri and obviously Bethlehem is not the same climate as the Great Plains. It is more temperate, despite all the pics of freak snow storms.
Not sure what appears to be a bit of ire.

Interestingly, 'a lamb' is considered 'a lamb' until it is a one-year old. A 'market' lamb would need to have put on a weight and proven healthy to be considered property to be sold and taxed. A year-old ram 'lamb' was the preferred sacrificial lamb for Passover. They are mature in stature, but still without the combative instincts of a full-grown ram.

As with the actual date of The Lord's return, we may have to wait to find out exactly when the infant Jesus was born in Bethlehem or where the Wise Men visited him as a 'young child' - whether in Bethlehem or in Nazareth.
I think you’re trying to paint a picture of Bethlehem that matches more of what you experience. When, in reality...
Israel's climate ranges from temperate to tropical, with plenty of sunshine. Two distinct seasons predominate: a rainy winter period from November to May; and a dry summer season which extends through the next six months.
https://www.mfa.gov.il › MFA › the...
THE LAND: Geography and Climate - Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs

buffalo_girl
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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As with the actual date of The Lord's return, we may have to wait to find out exactly when the infant Jesus was born in Bethlehem or where the Wise Men visited him as a 'young child' - whether in Bethlehem or in Nazareth.
I can wait. My ego isn't involved.

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ransomme
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by ransomme »

Robin Hood wrote: December 15th, 2020, 11:44 am
inho wrote: December 15th, 2020, 11:32 am Good article:
Dating the Birth of Christ by Jeffrey R. Chadwick in BYU Studies vol 49 (4), 2010
or if you prefer listening to a podcast:
When Was Jesus Born? – Jeffrey R. Chadwick in LDS Perspectives Podcast
Chadwick nails it.
The Catholics must have had good reason for choosing to celebrate Christ's birth in December. They weren't stupid.
A good reason is to hijack the pegan winter solstice festivals

But more seriously there is other strong reasoning within the scriptures to support a spring birth.

In a nut shell, exactly how Christ was sacrificed during the precise window of time at which the Passover lambs were being ritually slaughtered, he was also born during the season lambs were being born, ie during the spring.

The symbols and timing of things weren't happy hazardously arranged.

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Robin Hood
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by Robin Hood »

ransomme wrote: October 14th, 2021, 2:49 pm
Robin Hood wrote: December 15th, 2020, 11:44 am
inho wrote: December 15th, 2020, 11:32 am Good article:
Dating the Birth of Christ by Jeffrey R. Chadwick in BYU Studies vol 49 (4), 2010
or if you prefer listening to a podcast:
When Was Jesus Born? – Jeffrey R. Chadwick in LDS Perspectives Podcast
Chadwick nails it.
The Catholics must have had good reason for choosing to celebrate Christ's birth in December. They weren't stupid.
A good reason is to hijack the pegan winter solstice festivals

But more seriously there is other strong reasoning within the scriptures to support a spring birth.

In a nut shell, exactly how Christ was sacrificed during the precise window of time at which the Passover lambs were being ritually slaughtered, he was also born during the season lambs were being born, ie during the spring.

The symbols and timing of things weren't happy hazardously arranged.
I have some news for you... lambs are not born in the spring. They are generally born in the winter. Lambing season here begins in late December and is in full swing in January and February.
By the time the spring arrives, the lambs have already been born.

Zion Altman
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by Zion Altman »

what we know for sure is that we know nothing

if the parable says that it will come in three days (that is, the third day)

which means that if he said it two thousand years ago, it means that it will come around 2000+

because the third day begins in 2000 and is already counting down

however, if we take his year and day is a secret and let's tell the truth no one knows for sure

theoretically, if he was talking about three days, he had not yet arrived

so just use your brain and at 33 years old

2000 + 33 (so it's still about 12 years) but it's again a mistake as historians can't agree on what year

it could be from -6 to 0, so theoretically it should come around 2027 to 2033 and that is true

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by Zion Altman »

and don't try to find out the exact day at all, all the preachers have different opinions about it, and only one is not right, find out right at the time of research, when all the prophecies come, only then can they confirm their research, so there is no need to work

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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It was day 1,
if there’s a discrepancy,
it’s because stupid humans messed it up.

Goofy, but not Pluto. :mrgreen:

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ransomme
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by ransomme »

Robin Hood wrote: October 14th, 2021, 3:44 pm
ransomme wrote: October 14th, 2021, 2:49 pm
Robin Hood wrote: December 15th, 2020, 11:44 am
inho wrote: December 15th, 2020, 11:32 am Good article:
Dating the Birth of Christ by Jeffrey R. Chadwick in BYU Studies vol 49 (4), 2010
or if you prefer listening to a podcast:
When Was Jesus Born? – Jeffrey R. Chadwick in LDS Perspectives Podcast
Chadwick nails it.
The Catholics must have had good reason for choosing to celebrate Christ's birth in December. They weren't stupid.
A good reason is to hijack the pegan winter solstice festivals

But more seriously there is other strong reasoning within the scriptures to support a spring birth.

In a nut shell, exactly how Christ was sacrificed during the precise window of time at which the Passover lambs were being ritually slaughtered, he was also born during the season lambs were being born, ie during the spring.

The symbols and timing of things weren't happy hazardously arranged.
I have some news for you... lambs are not born in the spring. They are generally born in the winter. Lambing season here begins in late December and is in full swing in January and February.
By the time the spring arrives, the lambs have already been born.
Welsh? J/k

Well ok, then whenever that season is and Shepard's would still be out. I'll try to find the references to what I am thinking about and share it.

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Silver Pie
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by Silver Pie »

Pazooka wrote: October 13th, 2021, 1:28 pmHow likely is it that they would start their whole calendar over from the date of the sign given?
Incredibly likely:
8 Now the Nephites began to reckon their time from this period when the sign was given, or from the coming of Christ; therefore, nine years had passed away.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 2:8)
The sign was given on a specific day - the day when the unbelievers were going to kill all the believers if the sign didn't happen (the sun goes down, but the new star is so bright that it is still as light as day). That seems to me to be an incredibly powerful experience. So much so that they said, "Okay, we are creating a new calendar and the first day of this calendar is the day when the sun went down, for all the good that did since it was still as light as day all night."

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Silver Pie
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And remember, they had created a calendar that began when Lehi left Jerusalem. They began a new calendar on the day the judges started to run the country instead of kings running it. I fail to see why it is farfetched to believe they created another new calendar on the day the incredible happened.

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by Pazooka »

Silver Pie wrote: October 17th, 2021, 4:16 pm And remember, they had created a calendar that began when Lehi left Jerusalem. They began a new calendar on the day the judges started to run the country instead of kings running it. I fail to see why it is farfetched to believe they created another new calendar on the day the incredible happened.
The only instance I am aware of where God instructed the Israelite calendar to change was the Exodus/Passover. Prior to that time, the year began in the Fall (probably because of Adam). From that point, the ecclesiastical year began in the Spring. It was a big deal and was done by divine commandment. I understand it is because the Israelites respected God’s time-pieces, the moon and sun. Even with the change in Exodus, the integrity of the usage of the month was still kept.

Exodus 12:2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.

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Silver Pie
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by Silver Pie »

Pazooka wrote: October 17th, 2021, 4:59 pm The only instance I am aware of where God instructed the Israelite calendar to change was the Exodus/Passover. Prior to that time, the year began in the Fall (probably because of Adam). From that point, the ecclesiastical year began in the Spring. It was a big deal and was done by divine commandment. I understand it is because the Israelites respected God’s time-pieces, the moon and sun. Even with the change in Exodus, the integrity of the usage of the month was still kept.

Exodus 12:2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.
The Nephites had three calendars. In no instance is it ever mentioned that God told them to do it. They did it because the beginning day marked something important to them.

I hope you are not saying that God-believing people are sinning before God if they dare to create a calendar. To me, that is ridiculous because it makes God out to be a petty tyrant who gets his panties in a twist if any of his people decide to do something without his explicit command.

Also, the Israelites had been slaves, and they were given painfully detailed commands that someone used to having their own brain and freedom would not need.

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