WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Pazooka
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WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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I keep hearing from all over the place that the real date for the birth of Jesus is September 11th. Val Brinkerhoff mentioned it (thanks Alexander) and Michael Heiser also mentions it (thanks Abijah). So does Rob Skiba. Sept 11th makes so much sense because it means Christ’s ministry would have been 3 1/2 years (a very symbolic period of time) AND it would make it more clear why Sept 11th is such a big day for the dark side and their evil deeds - piling on the mockery.

I always disregarded the idea because, hey, Joseph Smith revealed that the date was April 6th and that was that. BUT HE NEVER DID. The following blew my mind. Leave it to James E. Talmage to dirty the waters.

The following is copied from https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_ ... -of-jesus/

Elder Bednar and the April 6th Birthday of Jesus
last update: 2020-04-07
(short-analysis)
Towards the end of his April 2014 General Conference address, Elder Bednar stated (emphasis added):

Today is April 6. We know by revelation that today is the actual and accurate date of the Savior’s birth. April 6 also is the day on which The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized. On this special and sacred Sabbath day, I declare my witness that Jesus the Christ is our Redeemer. He lives and will cleanse, heal, guide, protect, and strengthen us. Of these things I joyfully testify in the sacred name of Jesus Christ, amen.
His talk would be published in the Ensign with this parenthetical note:

See D&C 20:1; Harold B. Lee, “Strengthen the Stakes of Zion,” Ensign, July 1973, 2; Spencer W. Kimball, “Why Call Me Lord, Lord, and Do Not the Things Which I Say?” Ensign, May 1975, 4; Spencer W. Kimball, “Remarks and Dedication of the Fayette, New York, Buildings,” Ensign, May 1980, 54; Discourses of President Gordon B. Hinckley, Volume 1: 1995–1999 [2005], 409.
April 6th birthday references seem to depend primarily upon James Talmage’s analysis of D&C 20:1 in Jesus the Christ (emphasis added):

As to the season of the year in which Christ was born, there is among the learned as great a diversity of opinion as that relating to the year itself. It is claimed by many Biblical scholars that December 25th, the day celebrated in Christendom as Christmas, cannot be the correct date. We believe April 6th to be the birthday of Jesus Christ as indicated in a revelation of the present dispensation already cited [D&C 20:1], in which that day is made without qualification the completion of the one thousand eight hundred and thirtieth year since the coming of the Lord in the flesh. This acceptance is admittedly based on faith in modern revelation, and in no wise is set forth as the result of chronological research or analysis. We believe that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem of Judea, April 6, B.C. 1.
Harold B. Lee explicitly references D&C 20:

April 6, 1973, is a particularly significant date because it commemorates not only the anniversary of the organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in this dispensation, but also the anniversary of the birth of the Savior, our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith wrote this, preceding a revelation given at that same date [he then quotes D&C 20:1].
Kimball merely refers to his birthday on April 6th (presumably also at 1 BC) as a fact.1

Hinckley uses slightly stronger language but never indicates a scriptural reference or even a recipient of the revelation (emphasis added):

n ancient times Christmas, commemorating the birth of the Christ child, was celebrated at this solstice season [on December 25]. Men had no knowledge of the time of His birth, and so they came to bond the celebration of Christmas with the celebration of the return of the sun.
While we now know through revelation the time of the Savior’s birth, we observe the 25th of December with the rest of the Christian world.
The Book of Commandments and Revelations manuscript of D&C 20 was recently discovered, and it seems to undermine the claim that D&C 20 was meant, at the time of its writing, to be indicative of Jesus’s birthday. Deseret News spoke with Steven Harper, a BYU Assistant Professor of Church History and volume editor of the Joseph Smith Papers, about the significance of this discovery on the meaning of D&C 20:

… some people, including Elder Talmage, have read this verse as if it is the Lord speaking and revealing precisely that Christ was born 1,830 years before that day and that the revelation was given on April 6, 1830.
The recent discovery of the Book of Commandments and Revelations manuscript of D&C 20, however, showed that the verse was actually an introductory head note written by early church historian and scribe John Whitmer — something he did for many of the revelations, Harper said. “So those are separate from the texts that Joseph produces by revelation.”
The manuscript, published as part of the Joseph Smith Papers, also shows that the revelation was given on April 10 — not April 6. So although it references the organization of the church a few days earlier, the revelation — which topically has nothing to do with the birth date of Christ — and its introductory verses “shouldn’t be read as if it is a revelation of the birth date of Jesus Christ,” Harper said. “The interpretation that has been most popular over time is very much subject to question; that’s all I’m saying.”
And this wasn’t the only time that John Whitmer would identify a date with similar language. Another time he wrote, “It is now June the twelfth, one thousand eight hundred and thirty one years, since the coming of our Lord and Savior in the flesh.”
In other words, this type of language was merely a fancy 19th-century way of saying the date.
[unfinished from here on; need to complete with the below material]

https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/volume-1-chapter-24

On the 6th of April, in the land of Zion, about eighty officials, together with some unofficial members of the Church, met for instruction and the service of God, at the Ferry on Big Blue river near the western limits of Jackson county, which is the boundary line of the state of Missouri and also of the United States. It was an early spring, and the leaves and blossoms enlivened and gratified the soul of man like a glimpse of Paradise. The day was spent in a very agreeable manner, in giving and receiving knowledge which appertained to this last kingdom—it being just 1800 years since the Savior laid down His life that men might have everlasting life, and only three years since the Church had come out of the wilderness, preparatory for the last dispensation. The Saints had great reason to rejoice: they thought upon the time when this world came into existence, and the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy; they thought of the time when Israel ate the “Passover,” as wailing came up for the loss of the firstborn of Egypt; they felt like the shepherds who watched their flocks by night, when the angelic choir sweetly sang the electrifying strain, “Peace on earth, good will to man;” and the solemnities of eternity rested upon them. This was the first attempt made by the Church to celebrate the anniversary of her birthday, and those who professed not our faith talked about it as a strange thing.

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Interesting quotes, thanks!

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Great case study on how easily the precepts and utterances of men can evolve into doctrine.

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Luke
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Yeah the April 6 stuff is pretty silly since it's based off one misinterpreted verse, although there is evidence to show Jesus was born in early spring due to the shepherds being out with the sheep etc

Another thing I heard was that Jesus was born at the feast of Tabernacles -- since the Hebrew version of John 1 says "And the word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us", among other reasons

Never heard of the September 11 thing, but it sounds interesting as well

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Shepherds would have also been in the fields in September, same as April. But another thing to consider is the census.
The Roman and Judean rulers knew that taking a census in winter would have been impractical and unpopular. Generally a census would take place after the harvest season, around September or October, when it would not seriously affect the economy, the weather was good and the roads were still dry enough to allow easy travel. According to the normal dates for the census, this would probably be the season of Messiah's birth.
~some Bible blog

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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All I know is that he died on the fourth day after his birthday, according to the records kept by the Nephites in regards to the day the sign came showing his birth and the day the storm began that brought in the days of darkness signifying he had died.

So, if Jesus was born on Sept 11 (our equivalent), then he must have died about Sept 14th. 34th year, 1st month, 4th day, so he had had his 34th birthday on the first of the first month.

If he died in the Spring (Passover), then he had to have been born in the Spring - or else the Book of Mormon is lying to us.
And nine years had passed away from the time when the sign was given, which was spoken of by the prophets, that Christ should come into the world.
8 Now the Nephites began to reckon their time from this period when the sign was given, or from the coming of Christ; therefore, nine years had passed away.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 2:7 - 8)
And it came to pass in the thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month, there arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 8:5)
Pazooka wrote: September 19th, 2020, 9:24 pm I keep hearing from all over the place that the real date for the birth of Jesus is September 11th. Val Brinkerhoff mentioned it (thanks Alexander) and Michael Heiser also mentions it (thanks Abijah). So does Rob Skiba. Sept 11th makes so much sense because it means Christ’s ministry would have been 3 1/2 years (a very symbolic period of time) AND it would make it more clear why Sept 11th is such a big day for the dark side and their evil deeds - piling on the mockery.

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Silver Pie wrote: November 29th, 2020, 12:36 pm All I know is that he died on the fourth day after his birthday, according to the records kept by the Nephites in regards to the day the sign came showing his birth and the day the storm began that brought in the days of darkness signifying he had died.

So, if Jesus was born on Sept 11 (our equivalent), then he must have died about Sept 14th. 34th year, 1st month, 4th day, so he had had his 34th birthday on the first of the first month.

If he died in the Spring (Passover), then he had to have been born in the Spring - or else the Book of Mormon is lying to us.
And nine years had passed away from the time when the sign was given, which was spoken of by the prophets, that Christ should come into the world.
8 Now the Nephites began to reckon their time from this period when the sign was given, or from the coming of Christ; therefore, nine years had passed away.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 2:7 - 8)
And it came to pass in the thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month, there arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 8:5)
Pazooka wrote: September 19th, 2020, 9:24 pm I keep hearing from all over the place that the real date for the birth of Jesus is September 11th. Val Brinkerhoff mentioned it (thanks Alexander) and Michael Heiser also mentions it (thanks Abijah). So does Rob Skiba. Sept 11th makes so much sense because it means Christ’s ministry would have been 3 1/2 years (a very symbolic period of time) AND it would make it more clear why Sept 11th is such a big day for the dark side and their evil deeds - piling on the mockery.
Yeah, that’s a good point.


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Robin Hood
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by Robin Hood »

I am personally convinced that Christ was born in December.
But it doesn't really matter to me because I don't observe Christmas.

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by inho »

Good article:
Dating the Birth of Christ by Jeffrey R. Chadwick in BYU Studies vol 49 (4), 2010
or if you prefer listening to a podcast:
When Was Jesus Born? – Jeffrey R. Chadwick in LDS Perspectives Podcast

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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inho wrote: December 15th, 2020, 11:32 am Good article:
Dating the Birth of Christ by Jeffrey R. Chadwick in BYU Studies vol 49 (4), 2010
or if you prefer listening to a podcast:
When Was Jesus Born? – Jeffrey R. Chadwick in LDS Perspectives Podcast
Chadwick nails it.
The Catholics must have had good reason for choosing to celebrate Christ's birth in December. They weren't stupid.

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Robin Hood wrote: December 15th, 2020, 11:44 amThe Catholics must have had good reason for choosing to celebrate Christ's birth in December. They weren't stupid.
Yeah, it’s the darkest time of year when we could use a bit of light, Spirit & good will.
https://www.rd.com/article/christmas-on-the-25th/

The Spirit is more important than the letter anyway. Considering what we know of Christ, does he strike you as the type to tell a story of his birth so we can worship him & celebrate his birthday? Or could it be, “without a parable spake he not unto them”?

That begs the question, what is the meaning of the parable of his birth?

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Robin Hood wrote: December 15th, 2020, 11:44 amThe Catholics must have had good reason for choosing to celebrate Christ's birth in December. They weren't stupid.
But they do have a history of much evil. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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The Creator wrote: December 16th, 2020, 9:38 pm
Robin Hood wrote: December 15th, 2020, 11:44 amThe Catholics must have had good reason for choosing to celebrate Christ's birth in December. They weren't stupid.
But they do have a history of much evil. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And scholarship.

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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I'm going to opt for April 6 - however that works out with at least three different calendar reckonings - Hebrew, Gregorian and Julian Calendars
http://www.midrash.org/calendar/

No doubt the Passover sacrificial lambs were being born round about the hills of Bethlehem when Jesus was born. Shepherds stay close to their ewes whilst they are lambing. The smell of blood from the birthing process attracts predators.

According to some reckoning, the days prior to Christ's crucifixion were also founded on Passover ritual, beginning with the selection of a sacrificial lamb, and taking it home for a couple of days prior to killing it for Passover feast. What we know as Palm Sunday might well have been when the devout would have come to Jerusalem to choose their Passover lamb. Jesus was 'selected' that day, and condemned to death a few days later.

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Silver Pie wrote: November 29th, 2020, 12:36 pm All I know is that he died on the fourth day after his birthday, according to the records kept by the Nephites in regards to the day the sign came showing his birth and the day the storm began that brought in the days of darkness signifying he had died.

So, if Jesus was born on Sept 11 (our equivalent), then he must have died about Sept 14th. 34th year, 1st month, 4th day, so he had had his 34th birthday on the first of the first month.

If he died in the Spring (Passover), then he had to have been born in the Spring - or else the Book of Mormon is lying to us.
And nine years had passed away from the time when the sign was given, which was spoken of by the prophets, that Christ should come into the world.
8 Now the Nephites began to reckon their time from this period when the sign was given, or from the coming of Christ; therefore, nine years had passed away.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 2:7 - 8)
And it came to pass in the thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month, there arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 8:5)
Pazooka wrote: September 19th, 2020, 9:24 pm I keep hearing from all over the place that the real date for the birth of Jesus is September 11th. Val Brinkerhoff mentioned it (thanks Alexander) and Michael Heiser also mentions it (thanks Abijah). So does Rob Skiba. Sept 11th makes so much sense because it means Christ’s ministry would have been 3 1/2 years (a very symbolic period of time) AND it would make it more clear why Sept 11th is such a big day for the dark side and their evil deeds - piling on the mockery.
I just re-listened to the Naked Bible Podcast, episode 138, where he’s laying down some good evidence for Jesus’ birthdate being 9/11/-03 (because of the sign in the heaven described in Rev 12 happening within a 90 minute timeframe on that night) and I remembered this thread, so I had to come back and remind myself what Silver Pie’s contradictory BofM tidbit was.

Turns out...the BofM doesn’t say Jesus died 4 days after His birthdate. It was the 4th day of the month according to their reckoning. How likely is it that they would start their whole calendar over from the date of the sign given? Not likely. It would have been the years they were reckoning, and not months and days (months and days both being reckoned according to the moon).

Why does it matter? Michael Heiser makes a great point that, prophetically, it did/does matter, since Noah was described to have had the same birthdate. Noah, whose mission remedied the much of the disastrous affects of the giant infestation (Genesis 6) being in likeness of the One who would offer the final solution.

Fascinating stuff. Also, borrowed from Freemasonry - - the knowledge that IXXI is Roman numeral for 9/11 and the seemingly endless meaning that attends it...

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by Robin Hood »

As I said previously, as far as I'm concerned Chadwick has produced the most comprehensive analysis of this issue and I concur with him that Christ was likely born in what we call December.

P.S. All the best people are ;)
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Robin Hood wrote: October 13th, 2021, 1:35 pm As I said previously, as far as I'm concerned Chadwick has produced the most comprehensive analysis of this issue and I concur with him that Christ was likely born in what we call December.

All the best people are ;)
I think the evidence against that rests mostly with things like the fact that a Roman census was more likely to have happened at the end of the agricultural season but while the weather and roads were still good. Plus, the ministry of Christ being 3 1/2 years rather than 3 years and 4 months is paralleled elsewhere in scripture.

And 9/11/-03 was the first day of Rosh Hashana. There are no Israelite holy days in December

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Robin Hood wrote: October 13th, 2021, 1:35 pm As I said previously, as far as I'm concerned Chadwick has produced the most comprehensive analysis of this issue and I concur with him that Christ was likely born in what we call December.

P.S. All the best people are ;)
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It must suck having a December b-day :P
Oh, snap...except Joseph Smith was born in December.

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Robin Hood wrote: October 13th, 2021, 1:35 pm As I said previously, as far as I'm concerned Chadwick has produced the most comprehensive analysis of this issue and I concur with him that Christ was likely born in what we call December.

P.S. All the best people are ;)
P.P.S. Advance notice: All major credit cards accepted.
Yes, I agree with December. Would Christ consider His attaining a body happened at conception? We know that John, in utero, recognized Jesus in utero. April 6, I believe, is when He was formed in Mary’s body.

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Lizzy60 wrote: October 13th, 2021, 1:52 pm
Robin Hood wrote: October 13th, 2021, 1:35 pm As I said previously, as far as I'm concerned Chadwick has produced the most comprehensive analysis of this issue and I concur with him that Christ was likely born in what we call December.

P.S. All the best people are ;)
P.P.S. Advance notice: All major credit cards accepted.
Yes, I agree with December. Would Christ consider His attaining a body happened at conception? We know that John, in utero, recognized Jesus in utero. April 6, I believe, is when He was formed in Mary’s body.
So if Jesus were born September 11, John would have been born in March(ish)
If Jesus were born in December, that puts John’s birth in June(ish)

Why would he have been “formed in Mary’s body” on April 6th? Are you going off of the date that the CofJCofLDS was legally formed?

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Pazooka wrote: October 13th, 2021, 1:41 pm
Robin Hood wrote: October 13th, 2021, 1:35 pm As I said previously, as far as I'm concerned Chadwick has produced the most comprehensive analysis of this issue and I concur with him that Christ was likely born in what we call December.

P.S. All the best people are ;)
P.P.S. Advance notice: All major credit cards accepted.
It must suck having a December b-day :P
Oh, snap...except Joseph Smith was born in December.
Joseph was born two days before Christmas, I was born two days after. That must make me the Davidic Servant or something.... or at least a member of the festive trinity.... Smithmas - Christmas - Hoodmas.

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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https://www.chabad.org/library/article_ ... /Nisan.htm
The Hebrew Month of Nisan
It is in this month that we celebrate the eight-day holiday of Passover.

Nisan (or Nissan), the first month on Jewish calendar (according to the Torah), coincides with March-April on the civil calendar. The Torah calls it chodesh ha-aviv—the month of spring, as it marks the beginning of the spring months.

On the first day of Nisan in the year 2448 from creation (1313 BCE), two weeks before the Exodus, G‑d showed Moses the crescent new moon, instructing him regarding the setting of the Jewish calendar and the mitzvah of sanctifying the new month. “This month shall be for you the head of months, the first of the months of the year” (Exodus 12:2). This ushered in the first Jewish month and commenced the lunar calendar that Jews have been following ever since. It was the first mitzvah (“commandment”) given to the newly born nation of Israel, even before the exodus from Egypt.

It is in this month that we celebrate the eight-day holiday of Passover, from the 15th through the 22nd of Nissan. It commemorates the Jewish people’s miraculous redemption from slavery in Egypt, and the birth of the Jewish nation.
I can't help but tie Christ's birth with the lambs being born in hills surrounding Bethlehem when pasture was green and nourishing for the ewes. Should there be any problems, shepherds need to pay particular attention to their ewes during lambing season in the Spring.
Image

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Pazooka wrote: October 13th, 2021, 1:28 pm I just re-listened to the Naked Bible Podcast, episode 138, where he’s laying down some good evidence for Jesus’ birthdate being 9/11/-03 (because of the sign in the heaven described in Rev 12 happening within a 90 minute timeframe on that night) and I remembered this thread, so I had to come back and remind myself what Silver Pie’s contradictory BofM tidbit was.

Turns out...the BofM doesn’t say Jesus died 4 days after His birthdate. It was the 4th day of the month according to their reckoning. How likely is it that they would start their whole calendar over from the date of the sign given? Not likely. It would have been the years they were reckoning, and not months and days (months and days both being reckoned according to the moon).
See, this is where John Pratt's calendaring comes in handy. Here's an article Pratt wrote that got published in the Ensign back in the day: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... g?lang=eng

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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buffalo_girl wrote: October 13th, 2021, 3:28 pm https://www.chabad.org/library/article_ ... /Nisan.htm
The Hebrew Month of Nisan
It is in this month that we celebrate the eight-day holiday of Passover.

Nisan (or Nissan), the first month on Jewish calendar (according to the Torah), coincides with March-April on the civil calendar. The Torah calls it chodesh ha-aviv—the month of spring, as it marks the beginning of the spring months.

On the first day of Nisan in the year 2448 from creation (1313 BCE), two weeks before the Exodus, G‑d showed Moses the crescent new moon, instructing him regarding the setting of the Jewish calendar and the mitzvah of sanctifying the new month. “This month shall be for you the head of months, the first of the months of the year” (Exodus 12:2). This ushered in the first Jewish month and commenced the lunar calendar that Jews have been following ever since. It was the first mitzvah (“commandment”) given to the newly born nation of Israel, even before the exodus from Egypt.

It is in this month that we celebrate the eight-day holiday of Passover, from the 15th through the 22nd of Nissan. It commemorates the Jewish people’s miraculous redemption from slavery in Egypt, and the birth of the Jewish nation.
I can't help but tie Christ's birth with the lambs being born in hills surrounding Bethlehem when pasture was green and nourishing for the ewes. Should there be any problems, shepherds need to pay particular attention to their ewes during lambing season in the Spring.
Image
In Israel, the summer is dry and the winter is wet. There is more pasture after the dry summer is over.

Zachariah’s temple service gives additional data points:

- (Mary) conceived when her cousin Elisheva (Elizabeth) was in her sixth month of pregnancy (Luke 1:24–26).
- Elizabeth probably conceived early in the fifth month of the Jewish calendar (Av or early July). This is likely since the angel Gabriel appeared to her husband Zachariah while he was serving in the Temple as a priest in the division of Abijah (Luke 1:5), and advised him that Elizabeth would become pregnant (Luke 1:11–24).
- The Talmud and other historical sources reveal that the Abijah served during the last two weeks of the fourth month of the Jewish calendar (Tammuz), which is about late June.
- And the Bible says that after Zechariah came home from his service (in early Av), Elizabeth conceived (Luke 1:23–25).
- Nine months of pregnancy and another six months of Mary’s pregnancy (15 months total) brings us to the seventh month of the Jewish calendar (Tishrei), during which the Fall Feasts occur.

And then you have the name “Feast of Tabernacles” of the Fall Feasts. Jesus being tabernacled at that time isn’t so far-fetched.

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