WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Pazooka
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by Pazooka »

Silver Pie wrote: October 17th, 2021, 5:05 pm
Pazooka wrote: October 17th, 2021, 4:59 pm The only instance I am aware of where God instructed the Israelite calendar to change was the Exodus/Passover. Prior to that time, the year began in the Fall (probably because of Adam). From that point, the ecclesiastical year began in the Spring. It was a big deal and was done by divine commandment. I understand it is because the Israelites respected God’s time-pieces, the moon and sun. Even with the change in Exodus, the integrity of the usage of the month was still kept.

Exodus 12:2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.
The Nephites had three calendars. In no instance is it ever mentioned that God told them to do it. They did it because the beginning day marked something important to them.

I hope you are not saying that God-believing people are sinning before God if they dare to create a calendar. To me, that is ridiculous because it makes God out to be a petty tyrant who gets his panties in a twist if any of his people decide to do something without his explicit command.

Also, the Israelites had been slaves, and they were given painfully detailed commands that someone used to having their own brain and freedom would not need.
I am saying that we have no evidence they did anything other than begin counting their years from the occurrence of those stated events. Just like the Christians did with the birth of Jesus (BC and AD)

I mean...there’s the part where Daniel says the “man of sin” will seek to change the times and laws. Not sure if that means the calendar or not. I just think it’s not probable that they deviated from the lunar month.

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by abijah` »

King David set up 24 divisions of priests back in the day.

Apparently it was the Abijah division during the summer period of time of Zacharias' appointment :lol:
Spoiler
https://opentheword.org/2018/12/19/what-is-the-division-of-abijah-and-what-does-it-have-to-do-with-christs-birth/ wrote: But the passage provides a bit of information about Zachariah’s priestly service that may hint at what month Jesus was born.

King David set up 24 divisions or orders of priests (1 Chronicles 24). These two dozen divisions would rotate through the year with each division taking turns serving one week. Luke tells us that Zacharias was part of the division of Abijah and was in the Temple doing his priestly service as part of his role in this division or order.

What in the world is the division of Abijah?

To understand that we need to go back to the time of King David.

The primary function of the priests, direct descendants of Israel’s first High Priest Aaron, was to work in the Tabernacle of Moses and later the Temple.

However, there were more men available than needed, so King David set up 24 divisions or orders of priests (1 Chronicles 24). These two dozen divisions would rotate through the year with each division taking turns serving one week. Based on the Jewish calendar, each division had two weeks of service annually. But in addition to this, all 24 divisions were brought into work during the major festivals.

This means Abijah’s first service fell on the eighth time slot, not the eighth week, because there were weeks they all came together during festivals which did not count to this cycle. The cycle stopped before the major feasts and resumed after.

We also need to note that the Jewish calendar differs from our calendar in two important ways. First, the Jewish year started in what is our March and secondly their calendar is based on the lunar cycle, which resulted in an extra month being added every few years.

Once these differences are factored in, most scholars suspect that if this was Abijah’s first service of the year, then Zachariah was working in the temple sometime in late May or early June.
1 Chronicles 24:1O
The seventh lot fell to Hakkoz. The eighth lot fell to Abijah.

Granted - this only works w/in (and serves as an evidence for) a springtime birthdate for Jesus of Nazareth.

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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abijah` wrote: October 17th, 2021, 5:45 pm King David set up 24 divisions of priests back in the day.

Apparently it was the Abijah division during the summer period of time of Zacharias' appointment :lol:
Spoiler
https://opentheword.org/2018/12/19/what-is-the-division-of-abijah-and-what-does-it-have-to-do-with-christs-birth/ wrote: But the passage provides a bit of information about Zachariah’s priestly service that may hint at what month Jesus was born.

King David set up 24 divisions or orders of priests (1 Chronicles 24). These two dozen divisions would rotate through the year with each division taking turns serving one week. Luke tells us that Zacharias was part of the division of Abijah and was in the Temple doing his priestly service as part of his role in this division or order.

What in the world is the division of Abijah?

To understand that we need to go back to the time of King David.

The primary function of the priests, direct descendants of Israel’s first High Priest Aaron, was to work in the Tabernacle of Moses and later the Temple.

However, there were more men available than needed, so King David set up 24 divisions or orders of priests (1 Chronicles 24). These two dozen divisions would rotate through the year with each division taking turns serving one week. Based on the Jewish calendar, each division had two weeks of service annually. But in addition to this, all 24 divisions were brought into work during the major festivals.

This means Abijah’s first service fell on the eighth time slot, not the eighth week, because there were weeks they all came together during festivals which did not count to this cycle. The cycle stopped before the major feasts and resumed after.

We also need to note that the Jewish calendar differs from our calendar in two important ways. First, the Jewish year started in what is our March and secondly their calendar is based on the lunar cycle, which resulted in an extra month being added every few years.

Once these differences are factored in, most scholars suspect that if this was Abijah’s first service of the year, then Zachariah was working in the temple sometime in late May or early June.
1 Chronicles 24:1O
The seventh lot fell to Hakkoz. The eighth lot fell to Abijah.

Granted - this only works w/in (and serves as an evidence for) a springtime birthdate for Jesus of Nazareth.
I shared this on the first page of the thread. You would have to walk me through how you’re using it to arrive at a Spring birth.
Zachariah’s temple service gives additional data points:

- (Mary) conceived when her cousin Elisheva (Elizabeth) was in her sixth month of pregnancy (Luke 1:24–26).
- Elizabeth probably conceived early in the fifth month of the Jewish calendar (Av or early July). This is likely since the angel Gabriel appeared to her husband Zachariah while he was serving in the Temple as a priest in the division of Abijah (Luke 1:5), and advised him that Elizabeth would become pregnant (Luke 1:11–24).
- The Talmud and other historical sources reveal that the Abijah served during the last two weeks of the fourth month of the Jewish calendar (Tammuz), which is about late June.
- And the Bible says that after Zechariah came home from his service (in early Av), Elizabeth conceived (Luke 1:23–25).
- Nine months of pregnancy and another six months of Mary’s pregnancy (15 months total) brings us to the seventh month of the Jewish calendar (Tishrei), during which the Fall Feasts occur.

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by abijah` »

Pazooka wrote: October 17th, 2021, 6:31 pm Abijah served during the last two weeks of the fourth month of the Jewish calendar (Tammuz), which is about late June.
Wow. Truly fascinating, thanks for sharing that

Luke 23
But turning to them Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children"

Ezekiel 8
Then he brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the house of the LORD, and behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
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Real Date

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https://opentheword.org/2018/12/19/what ... sts-birth/
If this is a reference to Abijah’s second week of service, then Jesus was probably born in March which fits with other parts of the story that says the Shepherds were in the fields which they typically were during spring birthing (Luke 2:8).
March8 and 18th do begin amazing timing patterns,
than may indeed be seen via: search.php?keywords=38ii

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Re: Real Date

Post by abijah` »

BeNotDeceived wrote: October 17th, 2021, 9:32 pm
https://opentheword.org/2018/12/19/what ... sts-birth/
If this is a reference to Abijah’s second week of service, then Jesus was probably born in March which fits with other parts of the story that says the Shepherds were in the fields which they typically were during spring birthing (Luke 2:8).
March8 and 18th do begin amazing timing patterns,
than may indeed be seen via: search.php?keywords=38ii
Sure , "38, 38, 38, 38, 38, 38, 38" and on and and on, it's like "wow", you can see significance in certain numbers, I am positively dazzled and befuddled by the sheer profundity thereof.

So impressive. Even though LITERALLY EVERY NUMBER has its respective meaning and I DON'T CARE about your 38, I'm not bothered about your 28, and I give not even half an F about your incessant 57.

I know because in my spiritual youth, I also used to look for patterns according to a similar method. Until the LORD put me in my place and showed me how Babylonian scrying methods are spiritually bankrupt.

This is utterly the most easy, and the absolute most basic method of hermeneutics with the possibility of even existing.

Its like "wow, you found a number with a meaning, how mind=blown am I, init?"

Except I'm not.

Your single-witness (not two) correlations are proper houses built on sand. Arbitrary nonsense. I don't give a damn about your numbers unless you have a second witness to qualify their meaning.

You = the epitome of someone who speaks in tongues, with zero means of deriving meaning therefrom. Babbling nonsense with zero means to make sense of any of it. That is literally you, as well as your arbitrary, untethered correlations which you try and pass off as being authoritative purely on the basis that it was you who was the noticer.

1 Cor 14
If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret.

At least gematria-tards have a system. You literally don't even have a system, or witnesses, and I'm calling you out.

People like you, Alaris and Sherwin are literally a step below even the gematria-tards, with your stupid numbers independent of any qualifier or interpretive-bearing.

Therefore I dismiss them.

Although March 8 is immediately proximate to my own birthdate ;)

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Re: WHAT???

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Silver Pie wrote: October 17th, 2021, 4:16 pm And remember, they had created a calendar that began when Lehi left Jerusalem. They began a new calendar on the day the judges started to run the country instead of kings running it. I fail to see why it is farfetched to believe they created another new calendar on the day the incredible happened.
Dr. Michael S. Heiser wrote: I believe that the Magi saw something at a certain time in history that told them; there's going to be a divine King born in Bethlehem, saddle up the camels, we have to go see. Jews would have noticed that, Gentiles would have noticed it, because they were watching. And they believed that the Creator God, the God of Israel, was capable of telegraphing stuff like this. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Dead Sea Scrolls calendar, that the Qumran people used, is the only calendar in the ancient world that creates a time window for the Messiah's arrival that matches Jesus. I don't think that's a coincidence. Check it out!
Dragons and stuff. :mrgreen:

Maybe I can handle a 10 minute video. :P

I think maybe it was you that mentioned Dr Heiser. :?

Near the end: September 11th, 3BC was the feast of trumpets, and 911 is immediately proximate to my own birthdate. :lol:

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THE TIME HAS COME; LEAVE ME

Post by abijah` »

BeNotDeceived wrote: October 17th, 2021, 10:17 pm
*sigh*

Just leave me be already, please, I'm tired of being worn out by who you represent.

The things God gives me don't correlate with the things that you receive from whomever.

Leave me in peace, if you can.

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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BoM teaches Yeshua was born during tabernacles. More details https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/high-holidays/

Mosiah (LDS 3:5) (RLDS 1:97-98) For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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jreuben wrote: December 15th, 2020, 12:00 am A very useful read: https://www.astro.rug.nl/~vdkruit/jea3/ ... e/beth.pdf
Considering that in the BoM we are told there is a day a night and a day as if it was day, I don't find conjunctions like these persuasive.

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Robin Hood wrote: December 15th, 2020, 11:44 am
inho wrote: December 15th, 2020, 11:32 am Good article:
Dating the Birth of Christ by Jeffrey R. Chadwick in BYU Studies vol 49 (4), 2010
or if you prefer listening to a podcast:
When Was Jesus Born? – Jeffrey R. Chadwick in LDS Perspectives Podcast
Chadwick nails it.
The Catholics must have had good reason for choosing to celebrate Christ's birth in December. They weren't stupid.
Catholics were trying to make Saturnalia look okay. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/pagan-holidays/

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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AZRob wrote: October 13th, 2021, 6:09 pm
Pazooka wrote: October 13th, 2021, 5:34 pm I think the first time around, when I acknowledged Silver Pie’s point, I was just hasty. 3 Nephi 2:7-8 says they began “to reckon their time from this PERIOD when the sign was given.” I mean...think about it. This isn’t the first time the people of the BofM started to reckon their time according to an event. They did this when Lehi left Jerusalem and when the reign of the judges began. They kept time after the Hebrew tradition, meaning that the moon signaled their months and days. It would have been talking about their keeping track of the *years* from the time of the sign and nothing more. Just like it says in the text “nine years had passed away” or, in essence, in the ninth year from when the sign was given.

This should be made even more clear by reading 3 Nephi 8:5, where the signs of His death appear in the “thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day.” Jesus began His ministry at age 33. If you’re under the impression that he was born in April (usually the 1st month acc to the Hebrew calendar), then his mission was 4 years. But we know that it wasn’t. Him being born in September would make His ministry 3 1/2 years, a very significant, prophetically aligned, amount of time.
Okay, I see where you're going with this. You see the calendar time in general terms. I can't see it that way now that I've seen other events happen to the day with regularity. Examples:

1. Lehi left Jerusalem 600 years before Christ's birth. That would be 600 years, 0 months, 0 days, so also during a Passover, a great and symbolic time to be on the move. It would also explain why he couldn't simply go back and get the plates himself, but sent his sons instead. His exodus was a timeline marker.

2. Samuel the Lamanite said that Christ would be born in 5 years (0 months, 0 days). This specificity is what emboldened wicked Nephites to give the day that the righteous ones would be put to death. After all, it was spoken by the righteous people's own prophet, so that would be fair in the eyes of the wicked, right? It was fulfilled precisely to the day.

So when 3 Nephi mentions anything involving days, I'm going to sit up and take note. If you don't believe these things matter, you should take a look at John Pratt's calendar of everything. It may not be 100% accurate, but that didn't keep him from trying. Link here: https://johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/dates.html Note that these are all specific days, and some are even to the quarter-day.

Also note that years and months were counted differently. The Hebrew calendar places extra months along the way, but every year has two solstices and two equinoxes so it's hard to screw up the count of years. Maybe it's nothing more than that you're seeing a squishy female interpretation of counting which consists of throwing numbers around and I'm seeing hard numbers carefully pored over by a noted historian for whom the book was named. In any case, our perspectives are rather different.

In my opinion, the 3.5 year ministry began during the fall festivals in Jesus' 30th year, and ended just before the 33rd year concluded at the Passover and spring festivals. Again, the death was the final Passover lamb sacrifice.
Torah tells us when the start of the year is, and that is not something that is going to change. What can change and does multiple times in the BoM, how to count your years.

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by Silver Pie »

SJR3t2 wrote: February 10th, 2022, 8:15 am BoM teaches Yeshua was born during tabernacles. More details https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/high-holidays/

Mosiah (LDS 3:5) (RLDS 1:97-98) For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.
I'm not sure when that is, but I do know that the Book of Mormon said he was born on the 1st day of month 1, year 1, and died on the 4th day of month 1, year 34. It is very, very plain that he died a few days after his birthday.

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Silver Pie wrote: February 10th, 2022, 11:31 am
SJR3t2 wrote: February 10th, 2022, 8:15 am BoM teaches Yeshua was born during tabernacles. More details https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/high-holidays/

Mosiah (LDS 3:5) (RLDS 1:97-98) For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.
I'm not sure when that is, but I do know that the Book of Mormon said he was born on the 1st day of month 1, year 1, and died on the 4th day of month 1, year 34. It is very, very plain that he died a few days after his birthday.
BoM does not state he was born on the 1st day of the 1st month on the 1st year. Tabernacles is in the fall and starts on the 15th day of the 7th moon. Torah states when the year is to begin, which is in the spring. What Torah does not designate is how to count your years, as the BoM changed this multiple times.

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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SJR3t2 wrote: February 10th, 2022, 1:51 pm BoM does not state he was born on the 1st day of the 1st month on the 1st year. Tabernacles is in the fall and starts on the 15th day of the 7th moon. Torah states when the year is to begin, which is in the spring. What Torah does not designate is how to count your years, as the BoM changed this multiple times.
Thank you. I thought the feast of tabernacles might be in the fall.

And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.
1 Nephi 19:10
And after the Messiah shall come there shall be signs given unto my people of his birth, and also of his death and resurrection; and great and terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish; and they perish because they cast out the prophets, and the saints, and stone them, and slay them; wherefore the cry of the blood of the saints shall ascend up to God from the ground against them.
2 Nephi 26:3
And behold, again, another sign I give unto you, yea, a sign of his death.
. . .
But behold, as I said unto you concerning another sign, a sign of his death, behold, in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of three days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead.
Helaman 14:14,20
And it came to pass that there was no darkness in all that night, but it was as light as though it was mid-day. And it came to pass that the sun did rise in the morning again, according to its proper order; and they knew that it was the day that the Lord should be born, because of the sign which had been given.
3 Nephi 1:19
And nine years had passed away from the time when the sign was given, which was spoken of by the prophets, that Christ should come into the world. Now the Nephites began to reckon their time from this period when the sign was given, or from the coming of Christ; therefore, nine years had passed away.
3 Nephi 2:7-8
And it came to pass in the thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month, there arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land.
3 Nephi 8:5
And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days that there was no light seen;
3 Nephi 8:23
See 3 Nephi, chapters 8 and 9
And they were also conversing about this Jesus Christ, of whom the sign had been given concerning his death.
3 Nephi 11:2

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Silver Pie wrote: February 10th, 2022, 2:17 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: February 10th, 2022, 1:51 pm BoM does not state he was born on the 1st day of the 1st month on the 1st year. Tabernacles is in the fall and starts on the 15th day of the 7th moon. Torah states when the year is to begin, which is in the spring. What Torah does not designate is how to count your years, as the BoM changed this multiple times.
Thank you. I thought the feast of tabernacles might be in the fall.

And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.
1 Nephi 19:10
And after the Messiah shall come there shall be signs given unto my people of his birth, and also of his death and resurrection; and great and terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish; and they perish because they cast out the prophets, and the saints, and stone them, and slay them; wherefore the cry of the blood of the saints shall ascend up to God from the ground against them.
2 Nephi 26:3
And behold, again, another sign I give unto you, yea, a sign of his death.
. . .
But behold, as I said unto you concerning another sign, a sign of his death, behold, in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of three days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead.
Helaman 14:14,20
And it came to pass that there was no darkness in all that night, but it was as light as though it was mid-day. And it came to pass that the sun did rise in the morning again, according to its proper order; and they knew that it was the day that the Lord should be born, because of the sign which had been given.
3 Nephi 1:19
And nine years had passed away from the time when the sign was given, which was spoken of by the prophets, that Christ should come into the world. Now the Nephites began to reckon their time from this period when the sign was given, or from the coming of Christ; therefore, nine years had passed away.
3 Nephi 2:7-8
And it came to pass in the thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month, there arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land.
3 Nephi 8:5
And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days that there was no light seen;
3 Nephi 8:23
See 3 Nephi, chapters 8 and 9
And they were also conversing about this Jesus Christ, of whom the sign had been given concerning his death.
3 Nephi 11:2
None of that states what you are claiming, you are reading into those verses what you want to read. You have nothing stating they started the year then, you are only reading into it. Torah states the appointed times are determined by the sun and the moon in the sky Gen 1:14 is one place among many others. I agree the counting of years was set to then, but you have no actual proof that they broke Torah to go against how to determine the appointed times. FYI Nephites diligently kept Torah.

FYI some versions of the BoM actually read the fourteenth is when Yeshua died, which is what I believe is what was translated and got messed up with the printers manuscript. And I've looked into it because of my understanding of the High Holidays https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/high-holidays/. We don't have the original for 3 Nephi 8:5 and the printers manuscript around it has multiple issues that we know of because of comparing it to the original manuscript. Please look into yourself. https://bookofmormoncentral.org/content ... ook-mormon

RECKON, verb transitive rek'n. [Latin rego, rectus, whence regnum, regno, Eng. to reign and right.]
1. To count; to number; that is, to tell the particulars.
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Reckon

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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

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Silver Pie wrote: February 10th, 2022, 2:17 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: February 10th, 2022, 1:51 pm BoM does not state he was born on the 1st day of the 1st month on the 1st year. Tabernacles is in the fall and starts on the 15th day of the 7th moon. Torah states when the year is to begin, which is in the spring. What Torah does not designate is how to count your years, as the BoM changed this multiple times.
Thank you. I thought the feast of tabernacles might be in the fall.

And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.
1 Nephi 19:10
And after the Messiah shall come there shall be signs given unto my people of his birth, and also of his death and resurrection; and great and terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish; and they perish because they cast out the prophets, and the saints, and stone them, and slay them; wherefore the cry of the blood of the saints shall ascend up to God from the ground against them.
2 Nephi 26:3
And behold, again, another sign I give unto you, yea, a sign of his death.
. . .
But behold, as I said unto you concerning another sign, a sign of his death, behold, in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of three days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead.
Helaman 14:14,20
And it came to pass that there was no darkness in all that night, but it was as light as though it was mid-day. And it came to pass that the sun did rise in the morning again, according to its proper order; and they knew that it was the day that the Lord should be born, because of the sign which had been given.
3 Nephi 1:19
And nine years had passed away from the time when the sign was given, which was spoken of by the prophets, that Christ should come into the world. Now the Nephites began to reckon their time from this period when the sign was given, or from the coming of Christ; therefore, nine years had passed away.
3 Nephi 2:7-8
And it came to pass in the thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month, there arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land.
3 Nephi 8:5
And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days that there was no light seen;
3 Nephi 8:23
See 3 Nephi, chapters 8 and 9
And they were also conversing about this Jesus Christ, of whom the sign had been given concerning his death.
3 Nephi 11:2
Something that would be an interest for both of us, as it's something I actually want to do, but I doubt I'll spend the time researching it as I'm busy researching other things more important to me is, look through history on what Israel did they year counts, and see if they changed when the year started as you are suggesting when events such as a new kings, or they just started the year count around those times, which I believe is the only thing possible while keeping Torah.

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mcusick
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by mcusick »

Thinker wrote: December 16th, 2020, 9:33 pm
Robin Hood wrote: December 15th, 2020, 11:44 amThe Catholics must have had good reason for choosing to celebrate Christ's birth in December. They weren't stupid.
Yeah, it’s the darkest time of year when we could use a bit of light, Spirit & good will.
https://www.rd.com/article/christmas-on-the-25th/

The Spirit is more important than the letter anyway. Considering what we know of Christ, does he strike you as the type to tell a story of his birth so we can worship him & celebrate his birthday? Or could it be, “without a parable spake he not unto them”?

That begs the question, what is the meaning of the parable of his birth?
parable of his birth?

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Niemand
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by Niemand »

SJR3t2 wrote: February 10th, 2022, 8:27 am
Robin Hood wrote: December 15th, 2020, 11:44 am
inho wrote: December 15th, 2020, 11:32 am Good article:
Dating the Birth of Christ by Jeffrey R. Chadwick in BYU Studies vol 49 (4), 2010
or if you prefer listening to a podcast:
When Was Jesus Born? – Jeffrey R. Chadwick in LDS Perspectives Podcast
Chadwick nails it.
The Catholics must have had good reason for choosing to celebrate Christ's birth in December. They weren't stupid.
Catholics were trying to make Saturnalia look okay. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/pagan-holidays/
I wouldn't really say trying to make it look okay, they were co-opting it. They were syncretists rather than pagans.

As it is around the Winter Solstice (in the Northern Hemisphere), it also represents the time when the darkness begins to be beaten back by the light and the days get longer, symbolising the defeat of evil by good.

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SJR3t2
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by SJR3t2 »

Niemand wrote: February 11th, 2022, 2:44 am
SJR3t2 wrote: February 10th, 2022, 8:27 am
Robin Hood wrote: December 15th, 2020, 11:44 am
inho wrote: December 15th, 2020, 11:32 am Good article:
Dating the Birth of Christ by Jeffrey R. Chadwick in BYU Studies vol 49 (4), 2010
or if you prefer listening to a podcast:
When Was Jesus Born? – Jeffrey R. Chadwick in LDS Perspectives Podcast
Chadwick nails it.
The Catholics must have had good reason for choosing to celebrate Christ's birth in December. They weren't stupid.
Catholics were trying to make Saturnalia look okay. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/pagan-holidays/
I wouldn't really say trying to make it look okay, they were co-opting it. They were syncretists rather than pagans.

As it is around the Winter Solstice (in the Northern Hemisphere), it also represents the time when the darkness begins to be beaten back by the light and the days get longer, symbolising the defeat of evil by good.
The have turned what YHWH stated is evil, and now trying to tell believers it's okay to do now because it's about Christ now. I'd say they are trying to make it okay. And at the same time they tell believers they are not to do the Holidays that YHWH said are His and should be done FOREVER and teach His gospel and are prophecy. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/high-holidays/ Where these pagan rites they do now are based upon fertility rites even the misle toe https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/pagan-holidays/

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Robin Hood
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by Robin Hood »

SJR3t2 wrote: February 11th, 2022, 7:18 am
Niemand wrote: February 11th, 2022, 2:44 am
SJR3t2 wrote: February 10th, 2022, 8:27 am
Robin Hood wrote: December 15th, 2020, 11:44 am

Chadwick nails it.
The Catholics must have had good reason for choosing to celebrate Christ's birth in December. They weren't stupid.
Catholics were trying to make Saturnalia look okay. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/pagan-holidays/
I wouldn't really say trying to make it look okay, they were co-opting it. They were syncretists rather than pagans.

As it is around the Winter Solstice (in the Northern Hemisphere), it also represents the time when the darkness begins to be beaten back by the light and the days get longer, symbolising the defeat of evil by good.
The have turned what YHWH stated is evil, and now trying to tell believers it's okay to do now because it's about Christ now. I'd say they are trying to make it okay. And at the same time they tell believers they are not to do the Holidays that YHWH said are His and should be done FOREVER and teach His gospel and are prophecy. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/high-holidays/ Where these pagan rites they do now are based upon fertility rites even the misle toe https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/pagan-holidays/
I have sympathy for your position.
I gave up observing Christmas and Easter three years ago, and I did so because of their pagan origins and overt pagan symbolism.
The next stage for me is to understand and observe the feasts and festivals God instructed us to observe. However, I have found this a little difficult because so much of it is obscured by Rabbinical tradition.

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SJR3t2
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by SJR3t2 »

Robin Hood wrote: February 11th, 2022, 7:25 am
SJR3t2 wrote: February 11th, 2022, 7:18 am
Niemand wrote: February 11th, 2022, 2:44 am
SJR3t2 wrote: February 10th, 2022, 8:27 am

Catholics were trying to make Saturnalia look okay. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/pagan-holidays/
I wouldn't really say trying to make it look okay, they were co-opting it. They were syncretists rather than pagans.

As it is around the Winter Solstice (in the Northern Hemisphere), it also represents the time when the darkness begins to be beaten back by the light and the days get longer, symbolising the defeat of evil by good.
The have turned what YHWH stated is evil, and now trying to tell believers it's okay to do now because it's about Christ now. I'd say they are trying to make it okay. And at the same time they tell believers they are not to do the Holidays that YHWH said are His and should be done FOREVER and teach His gospel and are prophecy. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/high-holidays/ Where these pagan rites they do now are based upon fertility rites even the misle toe https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/pagan-holidays/
I have sympathy for your position.
I gave up observing Christmas and Easter three years ago, and I did so because of their pagan origins and overt pagan symbolism.
The next stage for me is to understand and observe the feasts and festivals God instructed us to observe. However, I have found this a little difficult because so much of it is obscured by Rabbinical tradition.
Start with something, if nothing else have a meal with your family on those days. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/high-holidays/. The calendar is very debated, and I'm in those fights, you can ask me when I believe they are or go when someone else thinks they are until you want to study the calendar issues out. (I did them a moon later than most last year, because we are to watch the lights in heaven not plants and predictions see Gen 1:14.)

Here is my FB Group on the subject if you want to join it https://www.facebook.com/groups/RemnantHighHolidays/

119 Ministries did a very good video a few years back how the seders are just traditions of the pharasie jews after 70 AD because the second temple was destroyed. I'll find it again if you want to watch it. The seders are not found in scriptures.

So Lev 23 talks about 8 appointed times, the 7 High Holidays and the weekly Sabbath. One that very few know about and fewer do is moonly appointed time, new moon day, it's a non-work day. Happy to get into that more with you if you want also.

Amos 8:5 Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit?

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Wondering Wendy
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by Wondering Wendy »

Silver Pie wrote: February 10th, 2022, 2:17 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: February 10th, 2022, 1:51 pm BoM does not state he was born on the 1st day of the 1st month on the 1st year. Tabernacles is in the fall and starts on the 15th day of the 7th moon. Torah states when the year is to begin, which is in the spring. What Torah does not designate is how to count your years, as the BoM changed this multiple times.
Thank you. I thought the feast of tabernacles might be in the fall.

And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.
1 Nephi 19:10
And after the Messiah shall come there shall be signs given unto my people of his birth, and also of his death and resurrection; and great and terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish; and they perish because they cast out the prophets, and the saints, and stone them, and slay them; wherefore the cry of the blood of the saints shall ascend up to God from the ground against them.
2 Nephi 26:3
And behold, again, another sign I give unto you, yea, a sign of his death.
. . .
But behold, as I said unto you concerning another sign, a sign of his death, behold, in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of three days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead.
Helaman 14:14,20
And it came to pass that there was no darkness in all that night, but it was as light as though it was mid-day. And it came to pass that the sun did rise in the morning again, according to its proper order; and they knew that it was the day that the Lord should be born, because of the sign which had been given.
3 Nephi 1:19
And nine years had passed away from the time when the sign was given, which was spoken of by the prophets, that Christ should come into the world. Now the Nephites began to reckon their time from this period when the sign was given, or from the coming of Christ; therefore, nine years had passed away.
3 Nephi 2:7-8
And it came to pass in the thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month, there arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land.
3 Nephi 8:5
And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days that there was no light seen;
3 Nephi 8:23
See 3 Nephi, chapters 8 and 9
And they were also conversing about this Jesus Christ, of whom the sign had been given concerning his death.
3 Nephi 11:2

I lean toward this day, as well. Also because of Exodus 12.
3 ¶ Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:

4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.

5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

So, the way I see it, the Lamb was taken into the house (Earth) on the 10th day and kept until the 14th day of the same month, the 1st month, then sacrificed. Only it was 34 years later.

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SJR3t2
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by SJR3t2 »

Wondering Wendy wrote: February 12th, 2022, 2:53 am
Silver Pie wrote: February 10th, 2022, 2:17 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: February 10th, 2022, 1:51 pm BoM does not state he was born on the 1st day of the 1st month on the 1st year. Tabernacles is in the fall and starts on the 15th day of the 7th moon. Torah states when the year is to begin, which is in the spring. What Torah does not designate is how to count your years, as the BoM changed this multiple times.
Thank you. I thought the feast of tabernacles might be in the fall.

And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.
1 Nephi 19:10
And after the Messiah shall come there shall be signs given unto my people of his birth, and also of his death and resurrection; and great and terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish; and they perish because they cast out the prophets, and the saints, and stone them, and slay them; wherefore the cry of the blood of the saints shall ascend up to God from the ground against them.
2 Nephi 26:3
And behold, again, another sign I give unto you, yea, a sign of his death.
. . .
But behold, as I said unto you concerning another sign, a sign of his death, behold, in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of three days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead.
Helaman 14:14,20
And it came to pass that there was no darkness in all that night, but it was as light as though it was mid-day. And it came to pass that the sun did rise in the morning again, according to its proper order; and they knew that it was the day that the Lord should be born, because of the sign which had been given.
3 Nephi 1:19
And nine years had passed away from the time when the sign was given, which was spoken of by the prophets, that Christ should come into the world. Now the Nephites began to reckon their time from this period when the sign was given, or from the coming of Christ; therefore, nine years had passed away.
3 Nephi 2:7-8
And it came to pass in the thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month, there arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land.
3 Nephi 8:5
And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days that there was no light seen;
3 Nephi 8:23
See 3 Nephi, chapters 8 and 9
And they were also conversing about this Jesus Christ, of whom the sign had been given concerning his death.
3 Nephi 11:2

I lean toward this day, as well. Also because of Exodus 12.
3 ¶ Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:

4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.

5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

So, the way I see it, the Lamb was taken into the house (Earth) on the 10th day and kept until the 14th day of the same month, the 1st month, then sacrificed. Only it was 34 years later.
You might find this video interesting in that it brings out how the lambs would have only been there during the fall https://youtu.be/CXtsE63Z_h4

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Pazooka
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Re: WHAT??? The Real Date of Christ’s Birth

Post by Pazooka »

SJR3t2 wrote: February 12th, 2022, 8:32 am
Wondering Wendy wrote: February 12th, 2022, 2:53 am
Silver Pie wrote: February 10th, 2022, 2:17 pm
SJR3t2 wrote: February 10th, 2022, 1:51 pm BoM does not state he was born on the 1st day of the 1st month on the 1st year. Tabernacles is in the fall and starts on the 15th day of the 7th moon. Torah states when the year is to begin, which is in the spring. What Torah does not designate is how to count your years, as the BoM changed this multiple times.
Thank you. I thought the feast of tabernacles might be in the fall.

And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.
1 Nephi 19:10
And after the Messiah shall come there shall be signs given unto my people of his birth, and also of his death and resurrection; and great and terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish; and they perish because they cast out the prophets, and the saints, and stone them, and slay them; wherefore the cry of the blood of the saints shall ascend up to God from the ground against them.
2 Nephi 26:3
And behold, again, another sign I give unto you, yea, a sign of his death.
. . .
But behold, as I said unto you concerning another sign, a sign of his death, behold, in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of three days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead.
Helaman 14:14,20
And it came to pass that there was no darkness in all that night, but it was as light as though it was mid-day. And it came to pass that the sun did rise in the morning again, according to its proper order; and they knew that it was the day that the Lord should be born, because of the sign which had been given.
3 Nephi 1:19
And nine years had passed away from the time when the sign was given, which was spoken of by the prophets, that Christ should come into the world. Now the Nephites began to reckon their time from this period when the sign was given, or from the coming of Christ; therefore, nine years had passed away.
3 Nephi 2:7-8
And it came to pass in the thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month, there arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land.
3 Nephi 8:5
And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days that there was no light seen;
3 Nephi 8:23
See 3 Nephi, chapters 8 and 9
And they were also conversing about this Jesus Christ, of whom the sign had been given concerning his death.
3 Nephi 11:2

I lean toward this day, as well. Also because of Exodus 12.
3 ¶ Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:

4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.

5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

So, the way I see it, the Lamb was taken into the house (Earth) on the 10th day and kept until the 14th day of the same month, the 1st month, then sacrificed. Only it was 34 years later.
You might find this video interesting in that it brings out how the lambs would have only been there during the fall https://youtu.be/CXtsE63Z_h4
That’s probably the most well done video of its kind that I’ve ever seen - thanks for posting

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