LDS Freedom Forum

Not wanting to drag out a debate over WHETHER martial law or equivalent is likely -- I think it is, and in the next 6 months or so. But please, do you guys have any advice of how to prepare for martial law? (assuming it does come)? '

I"m asking for practical suggestions, not theoretical debates about "if it will happen" please.

Do we take our immediate family and run some place? or hide? or just "go along" with the authorities, even if they want to take us to a "FEMA camp"? Go ahead and turn in our guns and ammo? Go with them, "register" as they ask? Trust the guys who come and take family members? (Again assuming FEMA camps exist.)

I don't know what to do... Have any of you thought this through?

Wow, straightarrow, that is a daunting request. I hope we can get some good suggestions. I live in the Salt Lake valley. I'm hoping that there are enough people here to band together. I don't see us being able to defend ourselves, one on one.

(My hubby did buy a new rifle yesterday and shells.)

I don't know where we'd be able to go to "hide". Hopefully, the church leaders will give us some counsel on this, if there is time to warn us, that is. In the meantime, I'm going to be following the news very
carefully.

Martial law could be imposed for a number of reasons. How you react is determined by what the "event" is. E.g. a natural disaster such as Katrina had martial law imposed and the authorities overstepped their bounds by confiscating weapons from law abiding citizens. The NRA and other organizations fought that in Congress and now we have enhanced protections.

Civil unrest would be a different sort of animal and I am of the opinion that I and my family will support law enforcement against criminal perpetrators. Once the government turns on citizens it is a different story.

Each individual needs to determine the lengths they will go to, to understand and then stand up for what rights they are protecting. I see a lot of posts against law-enforcement yet many of these individuals are good friends, neighbors and church members who have every intention of supporting individual and community respect, decency and law.

I applaud Kathyn's husband for obtaining weapons and ammunition and encourage a serious amount of study and determination as to when lethal force will be required and used.

Also we cannot stand on our own! If we attempt to do so we will be swept away. I would encourage everyone to associate with like minded individuals and make whatever sacrifices are necessary to be prepared to stand united. This is the very message from the brethren of the church and I don't make a distinction between spiritual and temporal preparations or stands.

In reference to retreats. A retreat should absolutely be in your emergency preparation plans. If you don't have a place to go you most certainly will be one of the sheep herded into a "coliseum" or camp, of course under the guise of "protection". Even if it is a place of shelter like in Katrina look at what a disaster that was with 20,000 of your "closest" friends. This wasn't the ominous concentration camp some fear but was still a nightmare for those without an alternate plan of retreat.

As my boys reviewed the trailers for the new movie "Defiance" my youngest at 17 suddenly said "Dad I get it! what we are working on are the preparations that will allow us to be ready for this type of situation before it becomes a reality"!

I was excited that he did finally get it. We have been warned over and over again and given very specific outlines of those conditions that WILL exist in the future. If we do not take the appropriate steps now to prepare and help others to do so we will not only suffer along with the unprepared but we will be held in judgment for not "warning our neighbor".

Thank you, Kathyn and Crash-n-burn. yes, it would matter if the martial law was "benign", protecting citizens, or if they were arresting non-compliants and taking EVERYONE's guns. Let's assume the latter... please. Along these lines:

"Today, American would be outraged if the UN troops entered Los Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow, they will be grateful!

This would especially be true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond -- whether real or promulgated -- that threatened our very existence.

It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil.

The one thing man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by a World Government."-- Henry Kissinger

To me, this is a re-play of the war in heaven -- "willingly relinquish" "individual rights" in return for "well-being" (security). That's the scenario! With arrest of non-compliants or "outspoken" persons. What do you do? (Especially if GA's don't give any particular advice... local Church leaders might, but do you HAVE to follow that local advice?)

The question revolves around moral agency/freedom Vs. security.

Remember how many Brethren ran and hid from "authorities" during the polygamy era...

I'm guessing I need to have some kind of evacuation plan, just in case, eh?
This would be okay for the short-term, but what happens to all of our food storage? There's no way I could take very much with me.

Yes, an evacuation plan is important -- and needs to be planned in advance. (Thinking gets clouded in times of martial law, I understand.)

You can't carry much food, but some. I'll be keeping my 72 hour kit (PLUS goodies) in my car, starting right away.

Also, preparedness minded folks around here are talking about having "places of refuge" -- like Captain Moroni set up. (Alma 47, 48) Of course, they're either just talking about it, or doing and not telling the likes of me!

These places of refuge would have CACHES of food, and perhaps arms buried also. Moroni also armed his people, so it's OK.

These places of refuge would have CACHES of food, and perhaps arms buried also

I have no other land than that upon which my house sits. I wouldn't know where else I could go and stash stuff. Anyone have any ideas how we can do this? In Utah, the federal gov't owns most of the land. Can I just go out in the desert somewhere and hide my stuff? I'm serious, I really want to know how we go about doing this.

Hope we get some answers to THAT question, Kathyn.

Crashnburn wrote:

Civil unrest would be a different sort of animal and I am of the opinion that I and my family will support law enforcement against criminal perpetrators. Once the government turns on citizens it is a different story.

They may make it difficult for citizens to determine 'whose side they are on"...
So be careful!

Each individual needs to determine the lengths they will go to, to understand and then stand up for what rights they are protecting.

Also we cannot stand on our own! If we attempt to do so we will be swept away. I would encourage everyone to associate with like minded individuals and make whatever sacrifices are necessary to be prepared to stand united. This is the very message from the brethren of the church and I don't make a distinction between spiritual and temporal preparations or stands.

In reference to retreats. A retreat should absolutely be in your emergency preparation plans. If you don't have a place to go you most certainly will be one of the sheep herded into a "coliseum" or camp, of course under the guise of "protection". Even if it is a place of shelter like in Katrina look at what a disaster that was with 20,000 of your "closest" friends. This wasn't the ominous concentration camp some fear but was still a nightmare for those without an alternate plan of retreat.

I agree. I've decided I will NOT go to a FEMA camp... with family, we have a few alternate places of refuge... Don't you have these, Kathyn, with extended family perhaps. Of course, they might not like you digging in their yard...

How about the REAL ID card? with a chip... Will you accept one of these, and what if you can't drive without the Real ID card?? what will you do? Let's think

"I have no other land than that upon which my house sits. I wouldn't know where else I could go and stash stuff. Anyone have any ideas how we can do this? In Utah, the federal gov't owns most of the land. Can I just go out in the desert somewhere and hide my stuff? I'm serious, I really want to know how we go about doing this."

Kathyn,
Since my basic premise is that we cannot survive alone I recommend associating with other like minded individuals with whom you can work together to accomplish your security goals. You may consider other family/friends who share your beliefs and may already have a property that is strategically established for long term security, or together you purchase one, you may find others who are establishing anything from alternative shelter sites to fractional ownership of properties. The real key is to include alternative shelters in your planning and let the Lord and your own wisdom guide your search.

One of the challenges is determining who in your circle of influence has both the property and the mindset to invite others to, as my friend often say "share your foxhole". You have to determine what you can bring to the table. They may have the land and you may have to provide cash, skills, or something of value. This may even be simply adding "security" to the group. Some people don't value the contribution others make and that attitude simply won't make it in an intense survival situation.

crash-n-burn wrote:Martial law could be imposed for a number of reasons. How you react is determined by what the "event" is. E.g. a natural disaster such as Katrina had martial law imposed and the authorities overstepped their bounds by confiscating weapons from law abiding citizens. The NRA and other organizations fought that in Congress and now we have enhanced protections.

I can't seem to find any info on this. What enhanced protections were enacted?

Good comments, I think this is an important discussion.
crash-n-burn:

Since my basic premise is that we cannot survive alone I recommend associating with other like minded individuals with whom you can work together to accomplish your security goals. You may consider other family/friends who share your beliefs and may already have a property that is strategically established for long term security, or together you purchase one, you may find others who are establishing anything from alternative shelter sites to fractional ownership of properties. The real key is to include alternative shelters in your planning and let the Lord and your own wisdom guide your search.

With regard to "fractional ownership of properties," a great idea IMO, if any one is interested in this concept, would you email me? @ [email protected]

Some food for thought:

1. BYU Idaho devotional, then-Elder Eyring says, "But you and I know that the Lord has prepared places of safety to which He is eager to guide us. http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/4 ... ional.html

2. In the June 2008 Ensign there is an article on the presidents of the Young Women's organization through the years. Under Sister Tanner's entry it is mentioned that "many large Church camping properties are developed."

3. The Church owns approximately 100,000 acres of land at Martin's Cove. The actual area where visitors tour is relatively small. The missionaries there also have 1,000 head of cattle. Seems to be a lot of land, probably rather expensive, for a visitor's center. There are also camping facilities nearby. This place I have actually visited. It is definitely off the beaten path.

4. I am told that the Church has many other properties in Utah and other places. They all have water. They tend to be in mountains.

Lamanite,
2008 saw some significant protection of Second Amendment rights. 1st the Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment is a personal right and that all citizens have the right to own firearms. This in effect struck down many of our nations cities bans or strict regulation of personal firearm ownership, e.g. Washington D.C.s ban. Although some cities are continuing to fight hard to preserve the bans San Fransisco and many others have been forced through additional lawsuits to change them.

With that said laws protecting those rights were either enacted/changed, or strengthened prohibiting municipalities and governments from confiscating weapons from law abiding citizens. This was especially true in New Orleans and they have been forced to return all guns unlawfully seized to the individual citizens.

I wish I new how to use this site better to cut and paste references but I will learn. In the meantime you can search out web sites such as NRA.org and others.

[From Straightarrow;
Not wanting to drag out a debate over WHETHER martial law or equivalent is likely -- I think it is, and in the next 6 months or so. But please, do you guys have any advice of how to prepare for martial law? (assuming it does come)? '
I"m asking for practical suggestions, not theoretical debates about "if it will happen" please.
Do we take our immediate family and run some place? or hide? or just "go along" with the authorities, even if they want to take us to a "FEMA camp"? Go ahead and turn in our guns and ammo? Go with them, "register" as they ask? Trust the guys who come and take family members? (Again assuming FEMA camps exist.)
I don't know what to do... Have any of you thought this through?]

Very tough question, Straightarrow. How DO you prepare for Martial Law?

A large factor will be the form it takes. As some have mentioned martial law has already been declared in the -present & past on a regional basis. Has it ever been declared on a national basis and what happened then?

During the Civil War, WW I and II several forms of martial law, or to use the term current term, "public emergency", were instituted. During these “emergencies” habeas corpus and several other rights were suspended. During the Civil War martial law allowed Lincoln to suspend habeas corpus throughout the entire United States . He imposed the suspension on "prisoners of war, spies, or aiders and abettors of the enemy," as well as on other classes of people, such as draft dodgers, news paper reporters, etc. During WW I Wilson formed the American Protective League, a quasi-private organization with 250,000 members in 600 cities who were sanctioned by the Wilson administration. These men carried Government Issue badges and freely conducted warrantless searches, interrogations, beatings and lynchings. Let’s not forget how WW II brought us the Japanese American internment camps. Several court decisions have been handed down since then to curb and limit the ability of the President and Congress to bring martial law. Posse Comitatus Act, and the Ex parte Milligan decision of 1866 tried to curb these powers. Unfortunately for us, The Military Commissions Act of 2006 rescinds these limits by suspending habeas corpus. Just last year we now have units of the Army training for use to help in “emergencies” here in the US. So as you can see, it has happened in the past during a World War or Civil War. To happen again you will need something just as big. It wont be passed “just so we can lock up all the Mormons” let’s say. Here are some suggestions as to when national martial will be used next:

1. World War III.
2. A nuclear EMP/dirty bomb attack on several cities..
3. Wide spread violence and bombings from Timothy McVey types.
4. A plague or famine that hits the entire nation. It would be made illegal to hoard food.
5. Anarchy brought on by an economic and social collapse.

How do you prepare for martial law?

One way to beat it is to join them. Never, you say? Join or form a Neighborhood Watch Program who works with local police forces. My Dad years ago belonged to our Counties’ Sheriff’s Posee in Arizona. Join Volunteer Fire and Police organizations or the local Search and Rescue. How will this help? You will get to know and make friends with your local police force. They are people too with families. They may be used to help warn of any sweeps or searches in your neighborhood. Sign up for Obama’s Civilian National Security Force in order to get a heads up on what their plans are. Will they become our American Protective League? You never know.

The above will work if you live in a state that has a freedom minded Governors and politicians. Parts of the West (except for the Left Coast), Mid-West and Texas will fight against a sweeping national martial law. There may be other regions that will fight it too. It all depends on you local politicians and police force. I work with several officers here in Las Vegas and put the question to them, “what would you do if asked to go door to door and confiscate weapons like was done during Katrina?” They have all said that it was a mistake to do it and that they would resist any efforts to disarm the populace and therefore render them helpless to criminals, gangs and anarchists. They will be more of an ally than any outside forces brought in to “restore order” during a national emergency.

If you live in a location that hates guns, then you better plan for a quick relocation to a “safer” area. This could be a vacation home/retreat or even a family member who lives in a safe zone. Plan ahead and have most of your storage in the retreat or even in the trusted family member’s home. Have family meetings to discuss these and other plans with your whole extended family. Make sure that you have enough transportation for your family and the rest of the food and important possessions still at home. Get a used pick-up or trailer to haul your food and stuff. Remember Lehi, you’ll have to leave behind your “treasures’ but at least your family will survive.

Remember, the lives of your family is more important than “treasure” or even your food. If you have lived worthily, God will watch over you and your family. How will God react if we kill a young Private from another State who has come to confiscate our food or to steal our “treasure”? Now to protect their lives and body that is a different matter. The best thing to do, if our families are trapped “behind the lines”, is to not resist until you can escape.


Challenging times are ahead, Straightarrow. As in all things we must prepare for the worst, and expect for the best.

OMD

Hmmm... thought-provoking, OMD, and I find in this I agree with you. Very interesting, and I think we should think these through in advance.

I live in the mtn west and have a gun and some storage. the next question-- what if "they" use trained troops from outside the area, or even UN troops -- not our neighbors -- to come and get our guns and "hoarded" food storage? Any suggestions?
(And if I happen to be on a "list" of possible trouble-makers and they wish to arrest? Do we go along? )

lost ark wrote:Some food for thought:

1. BYU Idaho devotional, then-Elder Eyring says, "But you and I know that the Lord has prepared places of safety to which He is eager to guide us. http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/4 ... ional.html

2. In the June 2008 Ensign there is an article on the presidents of the Young Women's organization through the years. Under Sister Tanner's entry it is mentioned that "many large Church camping properties are developed."

3. The Church owns approximately 100,000 acres of land at Martin's Cove. The actual area where visitors tour is relatively small. The missionaries there also have 1,000 head of cattle. Seems to be a lot of land, probably rather expensive, for a visitor's center. There are also camping facilities nearby. This place I have actually visited. It is definitely off the beaten path.

4. I am told that the Church has many other properties in Utah and other places. They all have water. They tend to be in mountains.

Shhhhhh!

The Book of Moses, Chapter 7
12 And it came to pass that Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were the people of Canaan, to repent;
13 And so great was the faith of Enoch that he led the people of God, and their enemies came to battle against them; and he spake the word of the Lord, and the earth trembled, and the mountains fled, even according to his command; and the rivers of water were turned out of their course; and the roar of the lions was heard out of the wilderness; and all nations feared greatly, so powerful was the word of Enoch, and so great was the power of the language which God had given him.
14 There also came up a land out of the depth of the sea, and so great was the fear of the enemies of the people of God, that they fled and stood afar off and went upon the land which came up out of the depth of the sea.
15 And the giants of the land, also, stood afar off; and there went forth a curse upon all people that fought against God;
16 And from that time forth there were wars and bloodshed among them; but the Lord came and dwelt with his people, and they dwelt in righteousness.

JST Genesis 14:28-33

28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;
29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name.
30 For God having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself; that every one being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course;
31 To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God; to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers; and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world.
32 And men having this faith, coming up unto this order of God, were translated and taken up into heaven.
33 And now, Melchizedek was a priest of this order; therefore he obtained peace in Salem, and was called the Prince of peace.

lost ark, thanks for that info.

I am hoping that here in the SL valley will be safe and that I will be able to share my resources with others who may come with nothing. But if we are to go out, I will follow the prophet.

[From Straightarrow;
Hmmm... thought-provoking, OMD, and I find in this I agree with you. Very interesting, and I think we should think these through in advance.

I live in the mtn west and have a gun and some storage. the next question-- what if "they" use trained troops from outside the area, or even UN troops -- not our neighbors -- to come and get our guns and "hoarded" food storage? Any suggestions?
(And if I happen to be on a "list" of possible trouble-makers and they wish to arrest? Do we go along? )]

If you live in a rural setting or small town you should be OK at first. They will have more than their hands full with just the big cities to deal with. What you can do until they come a’ callin’ is to get neighbors together and form patrols to keep the trouble makers at bay. If the criminal minded see a well defended town or farming area they will move to greener pastures. There will be someone in the area that has severed in the military that could help organize it for you. Just make sure that you are involved so this guy doesn’t become a petty little warlord. Make sure that the constitution is your rule book and guide to governance and things will be alright.

If you live in a big city, then move to a prearranged location with family or to a retreat. If you are close to the Spirit He will let you know when the time is right or listen to your local Stake and Regional Leaders. They will be the ones to give the word to group in your Stakes.

Beware; the following are only my opinions and feelings, well just as the above were also:

Salt Lake Valley; Look at the demographics. There are a lot of non-Mormons and jack-Mormons there, BUT, you also have a lot of hunters and gun enthusiasts there. Looking from the outside I don’t think it will be as bad as, say, Vegas, LA or Frisco. I am not saying it will be bad but that the Stakes will rapidly come together to share, among themselves AND peaceful non-Mormons, food and other necessities. Quorums will be asked to form patrols and keep their neighborhoods safe. Peace loving people will welcome this. The wicked and criminal will not. After a short period (after the criminals are either killed or ejected from Utah), calm should be restored. Provo Valley should fair even better. It’s the other big cities outside of Mormondom that will be the problem.

Old Man

Gruden, the Girls from our Stake go to a Girl’s Camp located near Colob Canyon in Utah, which is Church owned. The other Stake I lived in they went to a camp on Mnt Charleston, just outside of Vegas. I imagine that God, thru His Prophets and Apostles, are preparing many places for refuge and also storing up many of the things we will need; medical supplies, food, sanitation, etc.

OMD

oldmandalton:

Salt Lake Valley; Look at the demographics. There are a lot of non-Mormons and jack-Mormons there, BUT, you also have a lot of hunters and gun enthusiasts there. Looking from the outside I don’t think it will be as bad as, say, Vegas, LA or Frisco. I am not saying it will be bad but that the Stakes will rapidly come together to share, among themselves AND peaceful non-Mormons, food and other necessities. Quorums will be asked to form patrols and keep their neighborhoods safe. Peace loving people will welcome this. The wicked and criminal will not. After a short period (after the criminals are either killed or ejected from Utah), calm should be restored. Provo Valley should fair even better. It’s the other big cities outside of Mormondom that will be the problem.

This is kind of how I see things, also. According to the John Taylor (or Wilford Woodruff) prophecy, those who seek peace will come to this area for refuge and it will be up to us to feed and house them. That's why I've got extra food and supplies to share. I do think that perhaps a plague (bird flu or whatever) or earthquake may hit us to humble and try us before the refugees start showing up. It is said that these trials will start with the Lord's house and I'm assuming that the LDS (me included) need to be tried and tested and refined. (And sifted.)

Regarding the places or camps that the church has I don't know if any of you are familiar with the girls camp in the Heber Valley. It really is a first class set up. It is large enough to house about 5000 people. campsites, cabins, water, latrines. Very well done.

It is large enough to house about 5000 people. campsites, cabins, water, latrines. Very well done.

I hope there are many such camps because this won't hold that many people. 5000 seems like a lot but compared to how many Saints are in the Wasatch front, it's just a drop in the bucket, so to speak

You've hit the nail on the head, Kathyn:

Quote:
It is large enough to house about 5000 people. campsites, cabins, water, latrines. Very well done.



I hope there are many such camps because this won't hold that many people. 5000 seems like a lot but compared to how many Saints are in the Wasatch front, it's just a drop in the bucket, so to speak

The demographics are daunting. I don't have any easy answers, but I'm quite certain that the numbers along the Wasatch front would quickly overwhelm existing "girl's camps", including the big camp at Heber which as you point out might handle 5000. That's very few indeed compared to two MILLION along the Wasatch front, even with say 40 such camps for 5,000 each, which is certainly on the high side.

I don't think the Wasatch front is safe for long, sorry, that sense stems from my research on man-made earthquakes (Tesla, Reno grid, etc.) and the enormous quake potential along that zone. So sorry. The Brethren warned about earthquake potential in the area when they spoke to the re-conditioning of the Tabernacle for quakes -- did they not? If you have done that to your house, you might be OK. But how many heeded the hint?

I realize its not easy to move. This thread is good in that it encourages setting up "places of refuge" (Alma 47 etc) -- and I encourage each family/group to do that and not expect that "Church camps" will suffice. The second thing you should prepare for is MOBILITY so that you can get to your pre-planned places of refuge, and discuss all this with family and your trusted group.

This approach seems consistent to me with warnings in the BofMormon and the D&C. To sit back and expect to be "commanded in all things" (DC 58) would be unwise, IMO. I am willing to be corrected and this is just my view -- but it is a studied one. I think that the camps will be useful after the first wave of difficulty, again IMO.

I do think we would all be better off if we heeded the Prophets' counsel to
1. get out of debt; live within means; have a budget
2. have a 3-month supply of food
3. build a years' supply of food
4. prepare every needful thing", including shelter, fuel, etc.
5. sufficient water (3 weeks at least?)
6. react with faith, not fear
7. simplicity of life style (Elder Perry's talk in particular)
8. read the Book of Mormon and rely on it.
9. remember the early pioneers...