LDS Freedom Forum

Has anyone noticed the interesting direction that Elder Hollands talks have went in lately? He gave a CES fireside where he talked about liberty jail and how todays saints would have thier own "liberty jails". Then in conference he spoke of how angels would come to provide us comfort. (angels usually come to comfort when things are beyond human endurance). Then last night we attended the youth fireside. Holland spoke about Joan of Ark and how she was put to death becuase she would not deny her faith. She died at the young age of 19. Holland told the youth to never deny thier faith even under threat of death. He talked about how some things were worse than death. My wife was really freaked out by the talk because she fears that something is coming that will force our poeple and even our youth to make a choice between denying the faith or death.

Watch the youth fireside here:

http://abrandnewyear.lds.org/index.html#/watch/

I would appreciate your input on this as I find what he said both comforting and disturbing at the same time. Am I reading too much into this?

When I saw that on New Year's day, I thought that we will face something like Joan did. He did say that he did not want them to die. I believe that our convictions need to be that firm. Another one of those things that you make your choice ahead of time.

My thoughts are that Revelations speaks of 2 dictatorships that rise up. The first will be here in America and at the end of 3 1/2 years will be thrown down. This dictatorship starts sometime this year with the Obama administration and his rubber stamp congress. Revelations says that it will turn on the saints and kill some of them. We will likely be forced to choose between an oath to satan/govt' or choosing Christ and being executed. We know from the BOM that the Lord drops the hammer on any nation that kills his saints. Shortly after the killing of the saints starts the Lord intervenes and we witness the destruction of the "Whore", spoken of in chapters 17 and 18.

No wonder it says this in chapter 18:

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

and this:

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

This is a great thread and really hits home with regard to having the faith and courage to always stand as a witness of the Savior and his work, even in the face of persecution, threats or even death. IMO, the time is soon coming where we will all need to have strong testimonies to make it through the terrible trials we will have as Saints. A 'sifting' is coming I am afraid and there will be no fence sitters.

When we were baptized it was part of the deal.

Stand as witnesses of Christ in all things, even unto death.

Mosiah 18: 9
9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

It's like Bushy said. "Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists". Perhaps we will have another attack on the nation and then the govt' will come in and ask us all to swear an oath to Obama and that oath will include a denial of Christ. That would force people to make a stand wouldnt it?

I'm not afraid for myself (well, maybe a little.... ) but my fears are for my children and my grandchildren. It seems certain that the Prophet and the Apostles do see some very harsh times ahead. They will get the word out to us if we but listen carefully and read between the lines.

Yes you do have to read between the lines dont you? You have to look deeper to get the message.

I worry for my children as well.

I don't see Elder Holland's address in quite the same light as you younger parents might.

When we - meaning of the age of Elder Holland and myself - were young we were taught about Joan of Arc in elementary school as an example of unwavering strength of conviction and character. She was one of the 'heroes' we measured our own character against.

We were taught the story of the little Dutch boy who died with his finger in the dike hole to keep the ocean from breaching into the village. I don't know if that story was actually true, but it certainly left an impression on me that 'even' a child can make an enormous contribution when that child understands the seriousness of a situation and has the conviction to follow through.

In our time, youth really have no true heroes, nor are they called upon to take life seriously.

I think Elder Holland was trying to help the youth see that living the gospel is as serious a conviction as any of us will be asked to live; that we need to be unshakable in our application of gospel principles and in our ability to obey the commandments because we know Christ and know his gospel to be true. We follow the example of Christ - who lived and died for truth - because we also love the truth enough not only to live it, but to be willing to die rather than to deny it. We take the Gospel Plan seriously.

Most of our youth are great kids, but they may be a bit soft spiritually. Everything in their world has been predictable - especially in this country. Of course, things may become extremely challenging in every respect.

I believe Elder Holland was giving our youth a 'heads up' on deciding now what level of conviction they are willing to live. He talked about the many distractions and false paths available to this generation through electronics and entertainment.

If - like the Hitler Youth - our youth are more willing to obey the state than to remain faithful to God and Family then I'm not sure how they will stand up. We may need to be teaching our children in our own homes the miraculous protection provided to youth throughout the scriptures because of their faith and because of the faith of their parents.

They may well have their faith tested like Joseph, Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego. It is important for young people to think out how they personally would respond to such challenges by imagining themselves in those stories.

p51-mustang wrote:It's like Bushy said. "Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists". Perhaps we will have another attack on the nation and then the govt' will come in and ask us all to swear an oath to Obama and that oath will include a denial of Christ. That would force people to make a stand wouldnt it?

Possible, but I don't think even a socialist like Obama will go that far. However, mobocracy like the old days or invasion forces could push that decision. I've read accounts from a variety of people who all said both the Chinese and Russian forces would go house to house and brutalize/kill anyone who didn't deny God. If persecution of Mormons picks up it could easily go to the same thing. Social unrest can go in wildly unpredictable directions.

It is exactly the sociopathic arrogancy of someone like Barbara Marx Hubbard which fully reveals to which side they are committed. I suppose there is some possibility of repentance and perhaps we do need to send in the missionaries. However, if this is the level of committment of our adversaries then maybe we need to pick up the pace in living righteous - even Holy lives.

They love to throw that term around, "the post-human world'.

I guess they expect to become some transgenic hodge-podge in the image of their god.

Trouble is, the devil is not reliable - even with his 'friends'. He would just as soon destroy his worshippers as any righteous man or woman. He strings along his followers in order to dupe them into doing his dirty work in the mortal realm.

buffalo_girl wrote:Trouble is, the devil is not reliable - even with his 'friends'. He would just as soon destroy his worshippers as any righteous man or woman. He strings along his followers in order to dupe them into doing his dirty work in the mortal realm.

This is precisely why his plan will fail. Truth and honesty will always win in the end because there is nothing to hide and no one to be afraid of once the "enemy" is killed. That's what I don't get about anyone who knowingly sides with an agent of evil, be it Lucifer himself, or a criminal, gang member, etc. They should know if they are willing to kill someone else for their own purposes, of course another agent of evil would be willing to do the same.

If any of you have seen the Dark Knight, there is a great example of this (not that I necessarily promote the movie because it is extremely violent): The Joker recruits a whole bunch of thugs to orchestrate a bank robbery. Each one has their role, and when it's completed the next one up the chain kills the former one, so there are less people with which to share the spoils. By the end, it's just the Joker and one other man, who of course, the Joker kills. Why would any of those thugs think he would be the one spared when the Joker was completely willing to kill any of the others. Yet that's how it will always be with Satan and those who work for him.