Grant Palmer’s secret, non-believing, emeritus general authority was F. Enzio Busche

[Alexander]

“Years ago Mormon author and lifetime Church Education System employee Grant Palmer claimed to have had private meetings with an emeritus Mormon General Authority who had lost his faith, and who had shared confidential information with Grant about what it was like to be a Mormon General Authority, including the info that Mormon apostles receive a very large “signing bonus” ($1M+) when they become an apostle. The GA also opined to Grant that at least some Mormon GA’s don’t really believe that the Mormon church is “true,” per se, but that they continue to support/lead the church because they believe it to be “good.”

The emeritus GA initially reached out to Grant because his groundbreaking book, “An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins,” had been super helpful to him as he deconstructed his own Mormon faith.

Recently this General Authority passed away, and since both Grant and the GA have now passed away, I feel comfortable disclosing that I have had several independent sources over the years confirm to me that Grant Palmer’s secret, non-believing, emeritus General Authority was F. Enzio Busche. Just in case anyone was still curious.”

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=us

[Alexander]

Three Meetings with an LDS General Authority, 2012/2013 ~ by Grant H. Palmer
FEATURED
The following very interesting memorandum was received on 5th April 2013 from Grant H. Palmer, and is shared here with his permission

https://journeyofloyaldissent.wordpress ... 3/04/06/6/

[Alexander]

“In mid-October 2012, a returned LDS Mission President contacted me to arrange a meeting. Several days later, he called again and said that a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy also wished to attend. He said the General Authority would attend on condition that I not name him or repeat any stories that would identify him. He explained that neither of them, including the GA’s wife, believed the founding claims of the restoration were true. He clarified that they had read my book, An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins, and had concluded that the LDS Church was not true; was not what it claimed to be. The GA often went to the MormonThink.com website for information and there discovered my book. The Mission President said he received my book from the GA.



We have at this writing met three times. We first met on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 and again February 14, 2013 at my house. On March 26, 2013 we convened at the GAs house. Upon entering my home for the first meeting the GA said, “We are here to learn.” I recognized him. He has been a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy for a number of years. He has served in several high profile assignments during this period. The following are the more important statements made by the GA during our first three meetings. We now meet monthly.



He said that each new member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is given one million dollars to take care of any financial obligations they have. This money gift allows them to fully focus on the ministry. He said that the overriding consideration of who is chosen is whether they are “church broke,” meaning, will they do whatever they are told. He said the senior six apostles make the agenda and do most of the talking. The junior six are told to observe, listen and learn and really only comment if they are asked. He said that it takes about two to three years before the new apostle discovers that the church is not true. He said it took Dieter F. Uchtdorf a little longer because he was an outsider. He said they privately talk among themselves and know the foundational claims of the restoration are not true, but continue on boldly “because the people need it,” meaning the people need the church. When the Mission President voiced skepticism and named ___ as one who surely did believe, The GA said: “No, he doesn’t.” The one million dollar gift, plus their totally obedient attitude makes it easy for them to go along when they find out the church is not true. For these reasons and others, he doesn’t expect any apostle to ever expose the truth about the foundational claims.



When I asked the GA how he knew these things, he answered by saying that the Quorum of the Twelve today is more isolated from the Quorums of the Seventies now because there are several of them. When only one Quorum of the Seventy existed, there was more intimacy. During his one on one assignments with an apostle, conversations were more familiar. He said that none of the apostles ever said to him directly that they did not believe; but that it was his opinion based on “my interactions with them.” Also, that none of the Twelve want to discuss “truth issues,” meaning issues regarding the foundational claims of the church. He said that the apostle’s lives are so completely and entirely enmeshed in every detail of their lives in the church, that many of them would probably die defending the church rather than admit the truth about Joseph Smith and the foundations of the church.”

[Alexander]

“The Mission President and the GA both said they attend church every Sunday and feel like “a hypocrite and trapped.” The GA said his ward treats him like a king and when he gives firesides and speaks to LDS congregations they have high expectations of him.”

[Alexander]

Q:“Did he confirm any of the non-theological claims, like GAs getting all of their debts paid off and a large financial incentive to not deny the faith?“

A:“I address this in the previous comment of mine I linked, but he stated that those were just rumors he heard as a GA, and not necessarily reflective of his own opinion. Palmer makes it sound much more substantiated. I confronted Grant Palmer about some of the discrepancies via email. This was only about a week before Palmer died. He was rather brusque about it, and only answered, "Elder Busche has either forgotten the content [of those meetings] or doesn't want to own it."”

https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comment ... ame=iossmf

[Robin Hood]

I have never believed Grant Palmer's claims, mainly because they are based on heresay. He was never able to provide any evidence for these claims and that's a big red flag for me. Given that he was apparently so devoted to unearthing facts, he appears to have abandoned his principles in order to give us what amounts to tabloid journalism.
The claim regarding the $1 million dollar gift for new apostles is clearly nonsense. Most of these men are wealthy when they are called and would have no need to settle commitments. And besides, how would Busche know? He wasn't an apostle.
In effect Palmer was peddling third hand heresay at best.
Palmer was just another malcontent trying make a name for himself and profit from the Saints.
Although he couldn't take his royalties with him, I trust he is enjoying the fruit of his labours as we speak.

[Refraction75]

I have never believed Grant Palmer's claims, mainly because they are based on heresay. He was never able to provide any evidence for these claims and that's a big red flag for me. Given that he was apparently so devoted to unearthing facts, he appears to have abandoned his principles in order to give us what amounts to tabloid journalism.
The claim regarding the $1 million dollar gift for new apostles is clearly nonsense. Most of these men are wealthy when they are called and would have no need to settle commitments. And besides, how would Busche know? He wasn't an apostle.
In effect Palmer was peddling third hand heresay at best.
Palmer was just another malcontent trying make a name for himself and profit from the Saints.
Although he couldn't take his royalties with him, I trust he is enjoying the fruit of his labours as we speak.

Thank you for sharing this. I never heard about this before. I remember reading a highly edited out of context quote from Lucy Mack Smith that an antimormon posted. after going to the source and reading the supposed quote i discovered it was all out of context. Just various quotes edited from different pages of her diary to make it sound anti. i realized that anyone with an agenda can twist an orginal quote and Frankenstein it together to mean just about anything but what it was originally intended to mean.

[gkearney]

I’m afraid your revelation of this name is no better than that of Palmer’s original claim unless you are willing to give us the sources you are using to make it.

[Robin Hood]

I’m afraid your revelation of this name is no better than that of Palmer’s original claim unless you are willing to give us the sources you are using to make it.

Good point.
And I note that both Palmer and Busche are now dead, but what about the mysterious mission president, the third member of this menage a trois. Surely he could help to clarify this story, unless of course, we have to wait until he's dead too.

[Mike Griffith]

Apostles do not receive a $1M-plus signing bonus. That is fiction.

[Robin Hood]

Apostles do not receive a $1M-plus signing bonus. That is fiction.

I very much suspect you're right.
Do you have any confirmatory evidence perchance?

[markharr]

Heresay.

[gangbusters]

Thanks for the Sunday morning comedy.

[Pseudonym]

Apostles do not receive a $1M-plus signing bonus. That is fiction.

I very much suspect you're right.
Do you have any confirmatory evidence perchance?

It is logically near impossible to prove a false negative. In essence it is logically impossible to prove something did not happen. This is why the logic of innocent until proven guilty is a primary important principle of logic, intelligence, freedom and liberty. This is why gossip is evil to its core and why those so taken are so easily corrupted.

Another false logical construct is that the absents of evidence is evidence that the absents is true. The absents of evidence is a false claim as to a demonstration of truth. The absents of evidence proves nothing and is a logical no-op.

One last point deals with the perceived difference between evidence and proof. Evidence may not be conclusive - but evidence is proof but of what is the question. The human brain is wired to alter evidence based on bias to reach a conclusion. For example, the human eye will gather light and send the information to the human brain that will construct an image that conforms to what is expected.

[Aprhys]

Why wouldnt they give themselves large "signing bonuses?" Happens all the time in the corporate world. Happens in the public sector also. I work for the Dept. of Defense and even I sign a letter every year stating that I will not reveal my yearly bonus which is peanuts. One poster stated that the general authorities already are wealthy when they join the group. Why is that? Why arent poor yet worthy men called? A poor man or woman could easily live on a six-figure "living expense." As I have risen through the ranks of my employment I tend to try to bring men along with me who I know. I promote people I know rather than a stranget with a sparkling resume. Why? I can trust them to have my back if something goes wrong. We push and pull one another to success. Why would church leaders do the same? Why promote a super worthy yet unknown stake president from Podunk, Kansas when he might be a threat to your cabal? Nope. Joe Attorney or Sam Businessman whom you have rubbed shoulders with and who seeks the fame and finance that comes with church leadership will keep your secrets, hide your sins and maintain the status quo in order to line his pockets while you do as well.

[inho]

The GA stated that my disciplinary action (which would have occurred on the final Sunday of October 2010 had I not resigned), was mandated/ordered/approved by the First Presidency of the Church.

Busche was granted emeritus status in 2000, so how could he know that?

[inho]

I think it is possible that there was a GA who had lost his faith. I don't know Busche, so I can’t say if he had a testimony or not.
But anyway, the story is full of speculation. For example, see these quotes:

He said that it takes about two to three years before the new apostle discovers that the church is not true. ... He said they privately talk among themselves and know the foundational claims of the restoration are not true

When I asked the GA how he knew these things, he answered by saying that the Quorum of the Twelve today is more isolated from the Quorums of the Seventies now because there are several of them. ... He said that none of the apostles ever said to him directly that they did not believe; but that it was his opinion based on “my interactions with them.” Also, that none of the Twelve want to discuss “truth issues,” meaning issues regarding the foundational claims of the church.

He claims to know what apostles discuss privately among themselves, yet he says that apostles do not talk about these things to him or other seventies. So how does he know what they talk privately?

[Robin Hood]

The GA stated that my disciplinary action (which would have occurred on the final Sunday of October 2010 had I not resigned), was mandated/ordered/approved by the First Presidency of the Church.

Busche was granted emeritus status in 2000, so how could he know that?

Very good point.
The story is unravelling by the hour.

[Luke]

Who is Grant Palmer?

[Mindfields]

The elephant in the room is that fact that there is zero financial accountability within the hierarchy of the church. Therefore everything is speculation and conjecture.

[Alexander]

“So yes, it appears that Grant was trying to hide the fact that the mystery GA was already emeritus as of the 2012-13 timeframe.

Here is a rough transcript from Grant's Mormon Stories interview in which Grant discusses meeting the mystery GA [Episode 698 at 42:39] ...
https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/h ... nt-palmer/

John: How did he first reach out to you?

Grant: A mission president wanted to meet with me and then two days later he called up and he says there's a general authority would like to come with me.

John: and this is a emeritus general authority?

Grant: he is now, yes.

John: Ok. Was he when he first met with you was he still emeritus?

Grant: (hems and haws)

John: Not sure ... OK ...“

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... ame=iossmf

[Mindfields]

In fact there is zero accountability within the leadership of the church. They do what ever they please when ever they want and have most of the members convinced that whatever they do or say is the will of the Lord. Questioning anything they say or do is labeled as apostate. Public questioning most likely results in excommunication or what ever nonsense word they call it now.

[Alexander]

Who is Grant Palmer?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant_H._Palmer

[Alexander]

“It's hard to give too many details since I don't want to out him. Here's my summary though.

After close to 2 years of searching and talking to several people 'in the know,' I got enough information to deduce who it is. I was confident enough that I sent him a long type-written letter with some personal pictures explaining why I was looking for him and all that. A couple weeks later, I got a voicemail from him congratulating me for finding him. I called him back later, and we spoke on the phone for a bit, and he told me his story.

Several months later, I knew I was going to be near him, so I gave him a phone call and asked to meet. He agreed, although he didn't remember me anymore by this time (I gathered that I'm not the only person that has come knocking on his door).

I sat with him for about 3 hours. He told me interesting stories about his life among other things. When I brought up Grant Palmer's document, he told me that he was misrepresented on many details. He didn't seem to remember much though. I read him several passages from Grant's piece, and sometimes it was like he was hearing it for the first time. In fact he only seemed vaguely aware of all the talk about him. I truly don't think he is very aware at all about the 'exmo world' so to speak, other than he knows people are 'waking up.' I told him about some of the things Grant had said on Dehlin's podcast. He had no idea what that was.

A few of the things he contested:

• ⁠That the brethren don't believe, that they get a million dollar gift, etc - he said this was not his opinion, but just some "rumors" he had heard while a GA
• ⁠Elder Uchtdorf taking longer than most Apostles do to discover it's not true - he reacted as if he'd never heard this passage before, looked taken aback, and said he'd "never say that."
• ⁠That he was de-converted by reading Grant's book, and gifts it to other people - the 70 claimed he only read a few pages of it, and didn't particularly like it. In fact, I think he said he threw it away. He said he rebuked Grant once for trying to tear down the church.

There are other things as well, but I'm trying to be very conservative here and not give away too much.

Overall, Grant gave off a vibe of having a much closer connection to this guy than he really did. I met with the 70 not long after Grant's last appearance on MormonStories, which was right after Hamula's excommunication. In that interview, Grant stated that his 70 had told him that he met with Hamula on a specific day that he named, and had learned he was exed over adultery. That annoyed me since that information is so specific that it would effectively "out" the 70, since Hamula could have only met with so many 70's in one day, but it was a live podcast and couldn't be edited out.

So, when I spoke with the 70, I assumed he'd have heard about this already and be outraged. Nope. Contrary to what Grant claimed, the 70 hadn't spoken with Grant in months. It turns out Grant learned this through an intermediary. I know this intermediary because I have spoken to him before and Grant specifically named him in an email to me (which I'll get to later). So that's one instance in which I can verify that Grant exaggerated his closeness with the 70.

There is a bunch of other stuff I learned that is extremely relevant, and would significantly change the tenor of Grant Palmer's piece, but I can't get into it without endangering his anonymity. But I think it's important to note that this 70 isn't really this closet exmo hiding in the wings, reading r/exmormon and MormonThink and secretly trying to get people to leave the church. It's true that he doesn't believe in most of the truth claims of the church, but our similarities with this 70 don't extend much further than that, IMO. He doesn't live in our world. I would say the odds of him doing an "AMA" or something are effectively zero.

So, I emailed Grant Palmer, I think this was only a couple weeks before he died, and confronted him about a bunch of the discrepancies. I tried to be polite. Grant was short with me, didn't answer most of my questions, and intimated that the 70 was either not telling the truth or had forgotten the contents of their meetings. He referred me to a 3rd party that was in those meetings (this is the person I mentioned earlier that was the go-between and revealed the Hamula stuff to Grant), but that 3rd party was only in the later meetings and not the original one where the 70 supposedly said all the really crazy stuff about the brethren not believing. I didn't want to bother Grant too much considering he was on his deathbed, so I dropped it. That 3rd party has also told me that both he and the 70 were aghast at how many details were in Grant's original piece about meeting with the 70, which contradicts Grant's claim, to me, that the 70 had read through it and given his blessing before it was published.

It's possible the 70 is the one being dishonest or forgetful, but my interactions with Grant have led me to believe he wasn't very careful with details and prone to exaggeration. The Hamula thing in particular rubbed me the wrong way, and that was verifiable that he didn't actually speak to the 70 himself about that.

Bottom line: there's not much more to learn from the 70 that we don't already know. I got the impression he has a few stories about GA's he thinks are jerks, but he's super into positivity and not speaking ill of others, and I only got him to spill tea on one GA he thought was an opportunistic ladder-climber. He spilled tea on another, but wouldn't give me a name. So other than the fact that there's a 70 out there that doesn't believe, there's not much left to squeeze out of that rock.“
https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comment ... ame=iossmf

[Robin Hood]

“It's hard to give too many details since I don't want to out him. Here's my summary though.

After close to 2 years of searching and talking to several people 'in the know,' I got enough information to deduce who it is. I was confident enough that I sent him a long type-written letter with some personal pictures explaining why I was looking for him and all that. A couple weeks later, I got a voicemail from him congratulating me for finding him. I called him back later, and we spoke on the phone for a bit, and he told me his story.

Several months later, I knew I was going to be near him, so I gave him a phone call and asked to meet. He agreed, although he didn't remember me anymore by this time (I gathered that I'm not the only person that has come knocking on his door).

I sat with him for about 3 hours. He told me interesting stories about his life among other things. When I brought up Grant Palmer's document, he told me that he was misrepresented on many details. He didn't seem to remember much though. I read him several passages from Grant's piece, and sometimes it was like he was hearing it for the first time. In fact he only seemed vaguely aware of all the talk about him. I truly don't think he is very aware at all about the 'exmo world' so to speak, other than he knows people are 'waking up.' I told him about some of the things Grant had said on Dehlin's podcast. He had no idea what that was.

A few of the things he contested:

• ⁠That the brethren don't believe, that they get a million dollar gift, etc - he said this was not his opinion, but just some "rumors" he had heard while a GA
• ⁠Elder Uchtdorf taking longer than most Apostles do to discover it's not true - he reacted as if he'd never heard this passage before, looked taken aback, and said he'd "never say that."
• ⁠That he was de-converted by reading Grant's book, and gifts it to other people - the 70 claimed he only read a few pages of it, and didn't particularly like it. In fact, I think he said he threw it away. He said he rebuked Grant once for trying to tear down the church.

There are other things as well, but I'm trying to be very conservative here and not give away too much.

Overall, Grant gave off a vibe of having a much closer connection to this guy than he really did. I met with the 70 not long after Grant's last appearance on MormonStories, which was right after Hamula's excommunication. In that interview, Grant stated that his 70 had told him that he met with Hamula on a specific day that he named, and had learned he was exed over adultery. That annoyed me since that information is so specific that it would effectively "out" the 70, since Hamula could have only met with so many 70's in one day, but it was a live podcast and couldn't be edited out.

So, when I spoke with the 70, I assumed he'd have heard about this already and be outraged. Nope. Contrary to what Grant claimed, the 70 hadn't spoken with Grant in months. It turns out Grant learned this through an intermediary. I know this intermediary because I have spoken to him before and Grant specifically named him in an email to me (which I'll get to later). So that's one instance in which I can verify that Grant exaggerated his closeness with the 70.

There is a bunch of other stuff I learned that is extremely relevant, and would significantly change the tenor of Grant Palmer's piece, but I can't get into it without endangering his anonymity. But I think it's important to note that this 70 isn't really this closet exmo hiding in the wings, reading r/exmormon and MormonThink and secretly trying to get people to leave the church. It's true that he doesn't believe in most of the truth claims of the church, but our similarities with this 70 don't extend much further than that, IMO. He doesn't live in our world. I would say the odds of him doing an "AMA" or something are effectively zero.

So, I emailed Grant Palmer, I think this was only a couple weeks before he died, and confronted him about a bunch of the discrepancies. I tried to be polite. Grant was short with me, didn't answer most of my questions, and intimated that the 70 was either not telling the truth or had forgotten the contents of their meetings. He referred me to a 3rd party that was in those meetings (this is the person I mentioned earlier that was the go-between and revealed the Hamula stuff to Grant), but that 3rd party was only in the later meetings and not the original one where the 70 supposedly said all the really crazy stuff about the brethren not believing. I didn't want to bother Grant too much considering he was on his deathbed, so I dropped it. That 3rd party has also told me that both he and the 70 were aghast at how many details were in Grant's original piece about meeting with the 70, which contradicts Grant's claim, to me, that the 70 had read through it and given his blessing before it was published.

It's possible the 70 is the one being dishonest or forgetful, but my interactions with Grant have led me to believe he wasn't very careful with details and prone to exaggeration. The Hamula thing in particular rubbed me the wrong way, and that was verifiable that he didn't actually speak to the 70 himself about that.

Bottom line: there's not much more to learn from the 70 that we don't already know. I got the impression he has a few stories about GA's he thinks are jerks, but he's super into positivity and not speaking ill of others, and I only got him to spill tea on one GA he thought was an opportunistic ladder-climber. He spilled tea on another, but wouldn't give me a name. So other than the fact that there's a 70 out there that doesn't believe, there's not much left to squeeze out of that rock.“
https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comment ... ame=iossmf

Who are you quoting here?