The Apostasy of the Latter Days

[Rand]

But are the members or leaders the ones in apostasy. Or are both?

Primarily the members.
In Ezek 34 I am certain it is speaking of the general membership, not the leadership. We each carry a ministry and the command to "feed my sheep". The sheep are not being fed, on either side of the veil.
1 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.
4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.
5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

[Rand]

It seems like it’s the nature of almost all people that receive the gospel to fall away. Perhaps the pride cycle?

Which makes Enoch and the city of Zion very rare.

What were the keys they lived to actually establish Zion?

This is a great question and worthy of a life's study and seeking! Well done! The first step is to truly understand and keep basic Temple Covenants. Most don't even think about what they are. Until you can do that, Zion is a dream only.

[Alexander]

But are the members or leaders the ones in apostasy. Or are both?

Primarily the members.
In Ezek 34 I am certain it is speaking of the general membership, not the leadership. We each carry a ministry and the command to "feed my sheep". The sheep are not being fed, on either side of the veil.
1 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.
4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.
5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

It's talking about the wicked and slothful leaders/pastors.

Take for example what the Lord says:

John 10
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

We have modern day hirelings who act not as shepherds. They do not feed the Lord's sheep with the doctrine of Christ.

Liken what is said in Ezekiel 34 with other scriptures which proclaim the husbandmen have destroyed the vineyard and and given the church unto the exchangers.

JST Matthew 21
55 And when the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, he will destroy those miserable, wicked men, and will let again his vineyard unto other husbandmen, even in the last days, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

2 Nephi 13
14 The Lord will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people and the princes thereof; for ye have eaten up the vineyard and the spoil of the poor in your houses.

Jeremiah 12
10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

D&C 101
47 And while they were yet laying the foundation thereof, they began to say among themselves: And what need hath my lord of this tower?
48 And consulted for a long time, saying among themselves: What need hath my lord of this tower, seeing this is a time of peace?
49 Might not this money be given to the exchangers? For there is no need of these things.
50 And while they were at variance one with another they became very slothful, and they hearkened not unto the commandments of their lord.

[Alexander]

Jeremiah 5
31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

Jacob 5
46 And now, behold, notwithstanding all the care which we have taken of my vineyard, the trees thereof have become corrupted, that they bring forth no good fruit; and these I had hoped to preserve, to have laid up fruit thereof against the season, unto mine own self. But, behold, they have become like unto the wild olive tree, and they are of no worth but to be hewn down and cast into the fire; and it grieveth me that I should lose them.
47 But what could I have done more in my vineyard? Have I slackened mine hand, that I have not nourished it? Nay, I have nourished it, and I have digged about it, and I have pruned it, and I have dunged it; and I have stretched forth mine hand almost all the day long, and the end draweth nigh. And it grieveth me that I should hew down all the trees of my vineyard, and cast them into the fire that they should be burned. Who is it that has corrupted my vineyard?
48 And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: Is it not the loftiness of thy vineyard—have not the branches thereof overcome the roots which are good? And because the branches have overcome the roots thereof, behold they grew faster than the strength of the roots, taking strength unto themselves. Behold, I say, is not this the cause that the trees of thy vineyard have become corrupted?

[Rand]

Jeremiah 5
31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

Jacob 5
46 And now, behold, notwithstanding all the care which we have taken of my vineyard, the trees thereof have become corrupted, that they bring forth no good fruit; and these I had hoped to preserve, to have laid up fruit thereof against the season, unto mine own self. But, behold, they have become like unto the wild olive tree, and they are of no worth but to be hewn down and cast into the fire; and it grieveth me that I should lose them.
47 But what could I have done more in my vineyard? Have I slackened mine hand, that I have not nourished it? Nay, I have nourished it, and I have digged about it, and I have pruned it, and I have dunged it; and I have stretched forth mine hand almost all the day long, and the end draweth nigh. And it grieveth me that I should hew down all the trees of my vineyard, and cast them into the fire that they should be burned. Who is it that has corrupted my vineyard?
48 And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: Is it not the loftiness of thy vineyard—have not the branches thereof overcome the roots which are good? And because the branches have overcome the roots thereof, behold they grew faster than the strength of the roots, taking strength unto themselves. Behold, I say, is not this the cause that the trees of thy vineyard have become corrupted?

Focus on the kingdom more than the church. It will give you a different view, possibly.

[cab]

Jeremiah 5
31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

Jacob 5
46 And now, behold, notwithstanding all the care which we have taken of my vineyard, the trees thereof have become corrupted, that they bring forth no good fruit; and these I had hoped to preserve, to have laid up fruit thereof against the season, unto mine own self. But, behold, they have become like unto the wild olive tree, and they are of no worth but to be hewn down and cast into the fire; and it grieveth me that I should lose them.
47 But what could I have done more in my vineyard? Have I slackened mine hand, that I have not nourished it? Nay, I have nourished it, and I have digged about it, and I have pruned it, and I have dunged it; and I have stretched forth mine hand almost all the day long, and the end draweth nigh. And it grieveth me that I should hew down all the trees of my vineyard, and cast them into the fire that they should be burned. Who is it that has corrupted my vineyard?
48 And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: Is it not the loftiness of thy vineyard—have not the branches thereof overcome the roots which are good? And because the branches have overcome the roots thereof, behold they grew faster than the strength of the roots, taking strength unto themselves. Behold, I say, is not this the cause that the trees of thy vineyard have become corrupted?

Focus on the kingdom more than the church. It will give you a different view, possibly.

Tough to do when the church considers itself the kingdom.

[BeNotDeceived]

But are the members or leaders the ones in apostasy. Or are both?

Think not in terms of black and white, but rather an infinitely varied array of many flaxen cords, that grow ever darker like a growing storm, with small hints of silver lining. May we yet look forward to a glorious rainbow appearing in the coming days.

[Alexander]

Jeremiah 5
31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

Jacob 5
46 And now, behold, notwithstanding all the care which we have taken of my vineyard, the trees thereof have become corrupted, that they bring forth no good fruit; and these I had hoped to preserve, to have laid up fruit thereof against the season, unto mine own self. But, behold, they have become like unto the wild olive tree, and they are of no worth but to be hewn down and cast into the fire; and it grieveth me that I should lose them.
47 But what could I have done more in my vineyard? Have I slackened mine hand, that I have not nourished it? Nay, I have nourished it, and I have digged about it, and I have pruned it, and I have dunged it; and I have stretched forth mine hand almost all the day long, and the end draweth nigh. And it grieveth me that I should hew down all the trees of my vineyard, and cast them into the fire that they should be burned. Who is it that has corrupted my vineyard?
48 And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: Is it not the loftiness of thy vineyard—have not the branches thereof overcome the roots which are good? And because the branches have overcome the roots thereof, behold they grew faster than the strength of the roots, taking strength unto themselves. Behold, I say, is not this the cause that the trees of thy vineyard have become corrupted?

Focus on the kingdom more than the church. It will give you a different view, possibly.

And yet it is my focus on the Kingdom that leads me to believe in these scriptures...

[Reluctant Watchman]

I'm not sure if this has been shared before, but this video from Rob Fotheringham is really well done. He used to work for the Self Reliance division of the church. He does an amazing job of explaining the fate of the Gentiles and the Gentile church:

[I Dont Know...]

Jeremiah 5
31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

Jacob 5
46 And now, behold, notwithstanding all the care which we have taken of my vineyard, the trees thereof have become corrupted, that they bring forth no good fruit; and these I had hoped to preserve, to have laid up fruit thereof against the season, unto mine own self. But, behold, they have become like unto the wild olive tree, and they are of no worth but to be hewn down and cast into the fire; and it grieveth me that I should lose them.
47 But what could I have done more in my vineyard? Have I slackened mine hand, that I have not nourished it? Nay, I have nourished it, and I have digged about it, and I have pruned it, and I have dunged it; and I have stretched forth mine hand almost all the day long, and the end draweth nigh. And it grieveth me that I should hew down all the trees of my vineyard, and cast them into the fire that they should be burned. Who is it that has corrupted my vineyard?
48 And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: Is it not the loftiness of thy vineyard—have not the branches thereof overcome the roots which are good? And because the branches have overcome the roots thereof, behold they grew faster than the strength of the roots, taking strength unto themselves. Behold, I say, is not this the cause that the trees of thy vineyard have become corrupted?

The timing of these prophecies are important in my opinion.......These prophecies relate to the " last time" the vineyard shall be pruned.

Verses 49, 50 & 51 clearly show when the church had become so corrupted, the Lord instructed His servant to hew down the trees of the vineyard and cast them into the fire. The servant pleaded with the Lord to spare it a little longer......ushering in the pruning of the vineyard for the very last time. The Lord then instructs His servant to continue for a little season to prune and dig about and nourish the vineyard one more time.....

63 Graft in the branches; begin at the alast that they may be first, and that the first may be blast, and dig about the trees, both old and young, the first and the last; and the last and the first, that all may be nourished once again for the last time.

64 Wherefore, dig about them, and prune them, and dung them once more, for the last time, for the end draweth nigh. And if it be so that these last grafts shall grow, and bring forth the natural fruit, then shall ye prepare the way for them, that they may grow.

65 And as they begin to grow ye shall aclear away the branches which bring forth bitter fruit, according to the strength of the good and the size thereof; and ye shall not clear away the bad thereof all at once, lest the roots thereof should be too strong for the graft, and the graft thereof shall perish, and I lose the trees of my vineyard.

66 For it grieveth me that I should lose the trees of my vineyard; wherefore ye shall clear away the bad according as the good shall grow, that the root and the top may be equal in strength, until the good shall overcome the bad, and the bad be hewn down and cast into the fire, that they cumber not the ground of my vineyard; and thus will I sweep away the bad out of my vineyard.

67 And the branches of the natural tree will I graft in again into the natural tree;

68 And the branches of the natural tree will I graft into the natural branches of the tree; and thus will I bring them together again, that they shall bring forth the natural afruit, and they shall be one.

69 And the bad shall be acast away, yea, even out of all the land of my vineyard; for behold, only this once will I prune my vineyard.

70 And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard sent his aservant; and the servant went and did as the Lord had commanded him, and brought other bservants; and they were cfew.

71 And the Lord of the vineyard said unto them: Go to, and alabor in the vineyard, with your might. For behold, this is the blast time that I shall cnourish my vineyard; for the end is nigh at hand, and the season speedily cometh; and if ye labor with your might with me ye shall have joy in the fruit which I shall lay up unto myself against the time which will soon come.

72 And it came to pass that the servants did go and labor with their mights; and the Lord of the vineyard labored also with them; and they did obey the commandments of the Lord of the vineyard in all things.

73 And there began to be the natural fruit again in the vineyard; and the natural branches began to grow and thrive exceedingly; and the wild branches began to be plucked off and to be cast away; and they did keep the root and the top thereof equal, according to the strength thereof.

74 And thus they labored, with all diligence, according to the commandments of the Lord of the vineyard, even until the bad had been cast away out of the vineyard, and the Lord had preserved unto himself that the trees had become again the natural fruit; and they became like unto aone body; and the fruits were equal; and the Lord of the vineyard had preserved unto himself the natural fruit, which was most precious unto him from the beginning.

75 And it came to pass that when the aLord of the vineyard saw that his fruit was good, and that his vineyard was no more corrupt, he called up his servants, and said unto them: Behold, for this last time have we nourished my vineyard; and thou beholdest that I have done according to my will; and I have preserved the natural fruit, that it is good, even like as it was in the beginning. And bblessed art thou; for because ye have been diligent in laboring with me in my vineyard, and have kept my commandments, and have brought unto me again the cnatural fruit, that my vineyard is no more corrupted, and the bad is cast away, behold ye shall have djoy with me because of the fruit of my vineyard.

In these last times....the branches had overcome the roots. The branches being the leadership and the roots being the membership. What should be noted is the Lord's will that the branches and the roots should be equal...sort of like the city of Enoch where Zion is established.....food for thought...

....Is the LDS church equal from top to bottom?......Are we not in these last times of the pruning of the vineyard?.......If so, are we equal from top to bottom?.....If we are not yet equal then we MUST be in a state that precedes this time period....And what state could that be?.....

48 And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: Is it not the loftiness of thy vineyard—have not the branches thereof overcome the roots which are good? And because the branches have overcome the roots thereof, behold they grew faster than the strength of the roots, taking strength unto themselves. Behold, I say, is not this the cause that the trees of thy vineyard have become corrupted?



Until we are equal in strength from top to bottom......we cannot be considered part of His vineyard. His vineyard are those whose fruits are good; A love of God and all men. Until we show forth the kind of love Christ Himself exemplified to all our brothers and sisters....we are not part of His fruit, we cannot become a Zion people......and must therefore be of some other type of fruit.....

[BeNotDeceived]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_and_Covenants
The Doctrine and Covenants (sometimes abbreviated and cited as D&C or D. and C.) is a part of the open scriptural canon of several denominations of the Latter Day Saint movement. Originally published in 1835 as Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of the Latter Day Saints: Carefully Selected from the Revelations of God, editions of the book continue to be printed mainly by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) and the Community of Christ (formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints [RLDS Church]).

New stuff added to the D&C in 2010 & 2016, and many times besides that.

Anyone visited RLDS or checked them out in any way? qstn

[Alexander]

Jeremiah 2
7 And I brought you into a plentiful country, to eat the fruit thereof and the goodness thereof; but when ye entered, ye defiled my land, and made mine heritage an abomination.
8 The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit.
9 Wherefore I will yet plead with you, saith the LORD, and with your children's children will I plead.
10 For pass over the isles of Chittim, and see; and send unto Kedar, and consider diligently, and see if there be such a thing.
11 Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit.
12 Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the LORD.
13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

Jeremiah 10
20 My tabernacle is spoiled, and all my cords are broken: my children are gone forth of me, and they are not: there is none to stretch forth my tent any more, and to set up my curtains.
21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the Lord: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Jeremiah 14
12 When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.
13 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.
14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
15 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.

[gkearney]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_and_Covenants
The Doctrine and Covenants (sometimes abbreviated and cited as D&C or D. and C.) is a part of the open scriptural canon of several denominations of the Latter Day Saint movement. Originally published in 1835 as Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of the Latter Day Saints: Carefully Selected from the Revelations of God, editions of the book continue to be printed mainly by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) and the Community of Christ (formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints [RLDS Church]).

New stuff added to the D&C in 2010 & 2016, and many times besides that.

Anyone visited RLDS or checked them out in any way? qstn

Well the RLDS continue to add to the D&C on a regular basis they are up to 165 Sections now. The breakdown of their presidents and the number of additional sections added by each is as follows:

Joseph Smith: 107
The LDS share most of these as well with the exception of Section 111 (originally Section 101) which was the original marriage section which was removed by the LDS and replaced with LDS Section 132

Joseph Smith III: 17
Frederick M. Smith: 7
Israel A. Smith: 6
W. Wallace Smith: 9
Wallace B. Smith: 8
W. Grant McMurray: 2
Stephen M. Veazey: 3

[SPIRIT]

to copy and paste what I've posted before.

(about Jacob 5)

Avraham Gileadi

His vineyard become corrupt; (Jacob 5:39)
(overcome by the wild and has withered and died (symbolizes judgment and covenant curse)(Jacob 5:40)
and the Lord of the vineyard weeps and says "what could I have done more for my vineyard ?" (Jacob 5:41
********" (I have stretched forth mine hand almost all the day long), and THE END DRAWETH NIGH" (Jacob 5:47)
(please see 2 Nephi 28:32 below)
The trees became corrupt when their branches grew too lofty (pride), taking strength to themselves. (Jacob 5:48)
The trees of the vineyard are ready to be hewn down, and cast into the fire.(Jacob 5: 42,46) denoting judgment.

when the servant of the Lord brings the words of Christ (sealed portion) to the church,
they will say "We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!"
2 Nephi 28

29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!

30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto MY PRECEPTS, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

********
32 Wo be unto the Gentiles, saith the Lord God of Hosts! For notwithstanding
(I shall lengthen out mine arm unto them from day to day),
they will deny me;
nevertheless, I will be merciful unto them, saith the Lord God,
if they will repent and come unto me;
(for mine arm is lengthened out all the day long), saith the Lord God of Hosts.


Avraham Gileadi Ph.D.

Isaiah’s Wild and Natural Olive Tree Branches

Isaiah’s mini-allegory of an olive tree in Isaiah 11:1, 10 appears to be the inspiration for other scriptural olive tree allegories. The old tree no longer bears fruit, so a new procedure is needed for it again to do so. In Isaiah’s case, a “watersprout” (hoter, also “rod”) is allowed to grow out of the “trunk” (geza, also “stem”) of the tree. However, watersprouts, being wild by nature, don’t bear fruit. That is why they are cut out of fruit trees in the spring. Still, if a tree is failing and a watersprout can keep it alive, it can be permitted to grow strong enough to sustain a “graft” (sores, also “root/sprig”) that will eventually become a fruit-bearing “branch” (neser).

The analogy of Gentiles as a wild branch or branches that don’t bear fruit, and the house of Israel as a natural branch or branches that do bear fruit, seems self-evident.
The upshot of this, however, is that in God’s Day of Judgment most of the wild branch or branches of God’s people are “cut off” (krt, Isaiah 9:14; 22:25; 29:20; 48:19) so that the natural branch or branches may be grafted in.
Only those parts of the wild branch or branches that sustain the natural ones that are grafted in remain with the tree.
In short, the Gentiles’ receiving the good news when Israel rejects it is but an interim phase toward a more glorious, fruit-bearing phase (see Romans 11).

Wild Fruit—A Setting for Divine Intervention (because of apostasy)

Isaiah uses the allegory of a “vineyard”—which starts off as a national locale but ends up as the entire earth—to show God’s loving care for his people (Isaiah 5:1–7; 27:2–6). God cultivates the vineyard, clears it of stones, plants it with choice vines, builds a watchtower in its midst, and hews a winepress for it.
When he expects it to yield grapes, it yields only “wild grapes” (be’usim)—grapes that rot before they ripen. So God says, “I will have its hedge removed and let it be burned; I will have its wall broken through and let it be trampled.
I will make it a desolation: it shall neither be pruned nor hoed, but briars and thorns shall overgrow it” (Isaiah 5:5–6).

Because this allegory applies to God’s end-time people as well as to those of Isaiah’s day, the scenario of God’s people apostatizing, followed by a foreign power invading their land, repeats itself at the end.
Isaiah’s predictions of Assyria’s invasion of the Promised Land and its conquest of the world illustrate the fulfillment of the allegory—how the wickedness of God’s people precipitates God’s Day of Judgment and how God uses his people’s enemies to punish them (Isaiah 5:26–30; 10:5–14; 13:4–13; 28:14–22).
In the end, however, the good fruit a righteous remnant of God’s people brings forth fills the whole earth (Isaiah 4:2; 11:1; 27:6; 37:31–32).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who Are God’s Servants Called by God’s Endtime Servant?
January 13, 2018
Avraham Gileadi Ph.D.

At the point in Zenos’ allegory of the olive tree, when the mother tree and three daughter trees have “brought forth much fruit, and there is none of it which is good” (Jacob 5:32)—and all the trees are “good for nothing save it be to be hewn down and cast into the fire” (Jacob 5:43)—the Lord of the vineyard instructs his servant to “call servants, that we may labor diligently with our might in the vineyard, that we may prepare the way, that I may bring forth again the natural fruit, which natural fruit is good and the most precious above all other fruit” (Jacob 5:61).

The Lord of the vineyard commands these servants to graft branches from the three daughter trees into the mother tree and from the mother tree into the daughter trees—at the same time replacing the trees’ most bitter branches and casting them into the fire (Jacob 5:52–58, 66).

********** Lest we be among those who “suppose they know of themselves” (2 Nephi 9:28) and assume
that God’s servant who appears in these verses is the prophet Joseph Smith, or that church members in general constitute those “servants,” a little searching of the scriptures might be in order.

First, these events occur when “the end draweth nigh, and this is for the last time that I shall prune my vineyard” (Jacob 5:62, 64).
Second, the servants are to “begin at the last that they may be first, and that the first may be last” (Jacob 5:63); in so doing they are to “prepare the way” for the natural fruit (Jacob 5:61, 64).
And third, “the last time, that the servants of the Lord shall go forth in his power, to nourish and prune his vineyard” is “the day that he shall set his hand again the second time to recover his people,” after which “the end soon cometh” (Jacob 6:2).

Because the scriptures define “the end” as the end of the world (Daniel 12:4, 9; Matthew 24:3, 14; 1 Nephi 14:22; Moses 7:67), and because the trees’ most bitter branches are “cast into the fire” at the end of the world (Jacob 5:66; 6:3), and because the last being first and the first, last refers to the scattered house of Israel being “gathered in from the four quarters of the earth, and from the north countries” (Ether 13:11–12), and because the Lord’s “setting his hand again the second time” ushers in the end of the world,
the above events are still future.

They start with God’s endtime servant: “In that day the sprig of Jesse, who stands for an ensign to the peoples, shall be sought by the nations, and his rest shall be glorious.
In that day my Lord will set his hand again the second time to reclaim the remnant of his people—those who shall be left out of Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, and the islands of the sea. He will raise the ensign to the nations and assemble the exiled of Israel; he will gather the scattered of Judah from the four directions of the earth” (Isaiah 11:10–12; emphasis added).

As “a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days” (Doctrine & Covenants 113:6), the “sprig” of Jesse (Hebrew sores, also “graft” or “root”) gathers Israel in a new exodus at the end of the world that resembles Israel’s ancient exodus out of Egypt: “And there shall be a pathway out of Assyria for the remnant of his people who shall be left, as there was for Israel when it came up from the land of Egypt” (Isaiah 11:16; cf. 51:9–11).

Isaiah, Hosea, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, all predict Israel’s endtime gathering by God’s servant named David: “Give ear and come unto me; pay heed, that your souls may live! And I will make with you an everlasting covenant: [my] loving fidelity toward David. See, I have appointed him as a witness to the nations, a prince and lawgiver of the peoples.
You will summon a nation that you did not know; a nation that did not know you will hasten to you—because of Jehovah your God, the Holy One of Israel, who gloriously endows you” (Isaiah 55:3–5);

“And afterwards the people of Israel will return and seek Jehovah their God and David their king. And they will fear Jehovah and his goodness in the last days” (Hosea 3:5); “They will serve Jehovah their God and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. Therefore fear not, my servant Jacob, says Jehovah, nor be dismayed, O Israel. For, behold, I will save you from afar, and your offspring from the lands of their captivity. Jacob will return and be at rest and at peace, for none will make [him] afraid” (Jeremiah 30:9–10; cf. 23:1–8; 29:14; 31:8–10);

“I will seek out my sheep and deliver them out of all the places where they have been scattered in a cloudy and dark day. I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries. I will bring them to their own land and feed them upon the mountains of Israel. . . . And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he will feed them, [even] my servant David. He will feed them and he will be their shepherd. And I Jehovah will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them. I Jehovah have spoken [it]” (Ezekiel 34:12–13, 23–24).

Word links to Isaiah 11:10–12—and thus to Jacob 6:2—identify God’s servants who “go forth in his power” to graft Israel’s natural branches into their own olive tree as the spiritual kings and queens of the Gentiles who prepare the way for Jehovah’s coming. “I will lift up my hand to the Gentiles, raise my ensign to the peoples; and they will bring your sons in their bosoms and carry your daughters on their shoulders. Kings shall be your foster fathers, queens your nursing mothers” (Isaiah 49:22–23; emphasis added; cf. Isaiah 62:10–11; 2 Nephi 10:7–9).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The prophet Zenos’ allegory of the olive tree seems to provide the common source for Nephi’s and Paul’s olive tree imagery (cf. Romans 11:16–24; 1 Nephi 10:12–14; 15:12–16). The olive tree as a symbol of Israel, together with the fig tree and grapevine, has a long history in the Old Testament (cf. Judges 9:8–13; Hosea 14:6–8; Jeremiah 11:16–17). All three varieties can renew themselves even if they decay and are cut down.

The Lord likens Israel to a cultivated or tame olive tree, which, after growing to full stature, begins to wax old and decay (Jacob 5:3). Israel grew to full stature under kings David and Solomon but from then on declined spiritually and politically. Paul makes another allusion to the tree that decays and waxes old. It symbolizes the old covenant, or testament, which the new must replace (Hebrews 8:13).

Gentiles begin entering the picture with Israel’s exile to Assyria in 722 B.C. and Judah’s exile to Babylon in 587 B.C. and the deportation and resettlement of Israelites in other parts of these empires. Wild branches are grafted into the olive tree when the Gentiles accept the gospel after the Jews reject it (cf. Romans 11:1–27). By that time, many Israelites had assimilated into the Gentile nations so that these too could qualify for the blessings of God’s covenant with Israel by right of lineage.

For a time, under this grafting arrangement, the mother tree bears good fruit, as do three transplants to other parts of the vineyard. The transplants comprise (1) Jewish and Jewish–Christian migrations (Ether 13:11); (2) the Ten Tribes, who, after their exile into Mesopotamia, journey into Eastern and Western Europe (cf. 2 Esdras 13:40–46); and (3) the descendants of Lehi, who possess the land “choice unto me above all other parts of the land of my vineyard” (Jacob 5:43; cf. 2 Nephi 1:5; 29:13).

Zenos devotes by far the largest portion of his allegory to the final grafting phase that occurs after “a long time had passed away,” when all four trees have become corrupt (Jacob 5:29–77). This locates the allegory’s main time frame in the last part of the latter days, as also implied by the expression, “the end soon cometh” (Jacob 5:29). By that time, the branches have “overcome the roots . . . taking strength unto themselves” (Jacob 5:37, 48). The servant asks the Lord of the vineyard to “spare it a little longer,” whereupon the Lord commissions him to commence the regrafting process (Jacob 5:50–60).

The phrase, “Begin at the last that they may be first, and that the first may be last” (Jacob 5:63), refers initially to the restoration of the gospel to the Gentiles and, eventually, when these reject it, to its acceptance by the Jews and all the house of Israel (1 Nephi 13:42; cf. Matthew 20:1–17; Romans 11:17–27; 3 Nephi 16:10–11). This end-time process is an exact reversal of when the Jews rejected the gospel and the Gentiles accepted it in the time of Christ and the early apostles.

According to the prophet Ether, the day in which the first will be last and the last first is when the house of Israel will be gathered “from the four quarters of the earth, and from the north countries” (Ether 13:11–12). Moroni, who wants to say more on this subject, is “forbidden.” Instead, he says, “Great and marvelous were the prophecies of Ether; but they esteemed him as naught, and cast him out” (Ether 13:13). Evidently, Moroni can’t say more because the Lord wants to “try the faith” of his people with the words we now have (cf. 3 Nephi 26:9–1).

For a fuller understanding of these prophecies we must rely on the words of Isaiah, who predicts that the Lord will gather Israel and Judah from the four corners of the earth and from the land of the North, at which time they will return in a new exodus to Zion (cf. Isaiah 11:10–12:6; 43:2–8, 16–17; 48:20–21; 49:1–22). On this very subject, Nephi quotes the prophecies of Isaiah after he too is forbidden to say more (1 Nephi 20:20–21; 21:1–22).

Jacob adds that “the day that he [the Lord] shall set his hand again the second time to recover his people, is the day, yea, even the last time, that the servants of the Lord shall go forth in his power, to nourish and prune his vineyard; and after that the end soon cometh” (Jacob 6:2). This prophecy relies on Isaiah’s prediction that the Lord will “set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people.” At that time, the “outcasts of Israel” and the “dispersed of Judah” will be gathered from the “four corners of the earth” and will participate in a new exodus to Zion (Isaiah 11:11–12:6; cf. 2 Nephi 21:11–22:6).

Also speaking of that time, the Prophet Joseph Smith says, “Christ, in the days of His flesh, proposed to make a covenant with them [the Jews], but they rejected Him and His proposals, and in consequence thereof, they were broken off, and no covenant was made with them at that time. But their unbelief has not rendered the promise of God of none effect: no, for there was another day limited in David, which was the day of his power; and then His people, Israel, should be a willing people” (TPJS, 14–15).

The “day of power,” to which both Jacob and Joseph Smith refer, is the day that “the Messiah will set his hand again the second time to recover them; wherefore, he will manifest himself unto them in power and great glory, unto the destruction of their enemies, when that day cometh when they shall believe in him” (2 Nephi 6:14; cf. 1 Nephi 14:13–17).

Zenos’ beautiful allegory of the olive tree may thus be more fully understood in the light of Isaiah’s prophecies of the same end-time scenario. In all likelihood, the allegory is itself an expansion upon Isaiah’s olive tree allegory (cf. Isaiah 11:1).

By linking up with the words of Isaiah each time they predict end-time events, Book of Mormon prophets clearly point us to Isaiah. And each time they do, only one scenario emerges from these combined scriptures, and it is always the same. Lest we esteem the prophecies of Isaiah as naught and cast them out—as the Jaredites did those of Ether—therefore, we might ask, Is understanding the words of Isaiah perhaps the main test we must pass before the Lord reveals more? And second, Is the final grafting of the Jews, the Ten Tribes, and the Lamanites into the olive tree held up until some of us perform this?

Avraham Gileadi

[SPIRIT]

Isaiah 5
Jehovah’s vineyard yields bad fruit, leading to Assyria’s invasion and covenant curses on offenders.

1 Let me sing for my Beloved
a love song about his vineyard:
My Beloved had a vineyard
on the fertile brow of a hill.

Much of Isaiah’s prophetic imagery comes from the agricultural environment of ancient Israel. At certain seasons of the year, such as harvest time, minstrels traveled the rounds of farms to help lighten labor. As servants trod grapes to extract their juice, musicians played instruments and sang ballads in which the workers participated, turning drudgery into a dance. In that way, the latest love song was popularized throughout the land and was soon on everyone’s lips. “My Beloved”—the subject of Isaiah’s song—represents Israel’s God in his quintessential aspect (Isaiah 43:4; 49:15-16; 54:7-8; 63:7-9).

2 He cultivated it, clearing it of stones,
and planted it with choice vines.
He built a watchtower in its midst
and hewed for it a winepress as well.
Then he expected it to yield grapes,
but it produced wild grapes.

Jehovah plants the vineyard that represents his people (v 7) in a choice land—“on the fertile brow of a hill” (v 1). With the aid of his servants the prophets, he cultivates it and clears it of “stones,” removing its former wicked occupants and preparing the ground for planting the new. He builds a watchtower so that his prophets—their watchmen—may keep vigil. He hews a winepress, an ecclesiastical or communal framework in which his people can bring forth the fruits of their labors. But instead of producing good fruit, they produce “wild fruit” (be’usim)—fruit that rots before it ripens (cf. Isaiah 3:14-15).

3 Now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and you men of Judea,
please judge between me and my vineyard!
4 What more could have been done
for my vineyard than I have done for it?
When I expected it to yield grapes,
why did it produce wild grapes?

When Jehovah exposes his people’s actions for what they are, not for what they assume they are, his people are compelled to judge themselves. Although what Jehovah does for them lacks nothing, they fall far short of his rightful expectations. They may indeed be bringing forth fruit, even much fruit, but none of it any good: “Their watchmen are altogether blind and unaware” (Isaiah 56:10); “Their works are worthless” and “amount to nothing” (Isaiah 41:24, 29). Sinking into apostasy, they “have not wrought salvation in the earth” in order that its inhabitants “might not abort” (Isaiah 26:18).

5 Let me now inform you
what I will do to my vineyard:
I will have its hedge removed
and let it be burned;
I will have its wall broken through
and let it be trampled.

Because Jehovah has done for his vineyard all he can possibly do, his people are left without excuse. His response to their permitting the vineyard to become derelict is to remove its “hedge”—his divine protection—and “let it be burned”; to “have its wall broken through”—its defenses violated—and “let it be trampled.” Word links identify the king of Assyria/Babylon, Jehovah’s fire and sword, as the one who burns and tramples Jehovah’s reprobate people: “I will commission him against a godless nation . . . to tread [them] underfoot like mud in the streets” (Isaiah 10:6; cf. 26:10-11; 34:5-8).

6 I will make it a desolation:
it shall neither be pruned nor hoed,
but briars and thorns shall overgrow it.
Moreover, I will forbid the rainclouds to rain on it.

The idea of the land and institutions of Jehovah’s people’s becoming a desolation as a result of their apostasy permeates Isaiah’s prophecy (Isaiah 6:11-12; 33:8-9; 64:10-11). Additional covenant curses include a lack of rain and the proliferation of “briars and thorns”—the wicked’s overrunning the land (Isaiah 7:23-25; 9:18-19; 32:12-13). Once the vineyard is no longer “pruned or hoed”—as Jehovah withdraws his spiritual ministry—his people are left to themselves. Although these evils happen to his people as a whole, not all come under this condemnation (v 17; Isaiah 3:10; 5:16-17; 8:13-14).

7 The vineyard of Jehovah of Hosts is the house of Israel
and the people of Judah his cherished grove.
He expected justice,
but there was injustice;
he expected righteousness,
but there was an outcry.

In an end-time context, “Israel” and “Judah” serve as codenames of those who are Jehovah’s covenant people in that day. Their depiction as “his cherished grove” infers that in the beginning Jehovah doted over them. As the vines reach fruit-bearing age, however, they deeply disappoint him. The words “He expected justice, but there was injustice; [he expected] righteousness, but there was an outcry” (wayeqaw lemispat wehinneh mispah lisdaqa wehinneh se‘aqa) use assonance and alliteration to dramatize this disenchantment. The parallel terms “injustice” and “outcry” express grave ethical violations.

8 Woe to those who join house to house
and link field to field till no place is left,
and you are restricted to dwell
in the centers of the land!

A series of seven “woes” or covenant curses follows Isaiah’s vineyard allegory, detailing a cross-section of hedonistic behaviors that underscores the unjust and unprincipled standards by which Jehovah’s end-time people live.
A spirit of speculation overcomes them—as manifested by oppressive zoning laws, for-profit property developments, corporate mergers, and other questionable entrepreneurial ventures—forcing the poor of his people out of rural, self-sustaining lifestyles into the cities or centers of the land.
Only his people who are thus disenfranchised Jehovah acknowledges as “you.”

[SPIRIT]

But are the members or leaders the ones in apostasy. Or are both?

Primarily the members.
In Ezek 34 I am certain it is speaking of the general membership, not the leadership. We each carry a ministry and the command to "feed my sheep". The sheep are not being fed, on either side of the veil.
1 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.
4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.
5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

it's actually the other way around.
it's primarily the leaders.
And those that care enough to keep the commandment the Lord gave,
to not only read, but search diligently the words of Isaiah - "for great are the words of Isaiah" ***
will know this.

Isaiah is full of scriptures showing that it is -
"The leaders of these people have misled them, and those who are led are confused” (Isaiah 9:13–16).

"O you deaf, listen; O you blind, look and see! seeing much but not giving heed, with open ears hearing nothing?” (Isaiah 42:17–20).

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=59515&p=1113267&hi ... 8#p1113267

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55396&p=1037704&hil ... h#p1037704

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=58863&p=1097535&hil ... 8#p1097535

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=59092&p=1101443&hil ... t#p1101443

***
3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

[Robin Hood]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_and_Covenants
The Doctrine and Covenants (sometimes abbreviated and cited as D&C or D. and C.) is a part of the open scriptural canon of several denominations of the Latter Day Saint movement. Originally published in 1835 as Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of the Latter Day Saints: Carefully Selected from the Revelations of God, editions of the book continue to be printed mainly by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) and the Community of Christ (formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints [RLDS Church]).

New stuff added to the D&C in 2010 & 2016, and many times besides that.

Anyone visited RLDS or checked them out in any way? qstn

Well the RLDS continue to add to the D&C on a regular basis they are up to 165 Sections now. The breakdown of their presidents and the number of additional sections added by each is as follows:

Joseph Smith: 107
The LDS share most of these as well with the exception of Section 111 (originally Section 101) which was the original marriage section which was removed by the LDS and replaced with LDS Section 132

Joseph Smith III: 17
Frederick M. Smith: 7
Israel A. Smith: 6
W. Wallace Smith: 9
Wallace B. Smith: 8
W. Grant McMurray: 2
Stephen M. Veazey: 3

Yeah, but have you read them? Such a lot of words to say very little.
McMurray's and Veasey's are particularly poor in my view. Lots of flowery words and phrases but very little substance

[gkearney]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_and_Covenants
The Doctrine and Covenants (sometimes abbreviated and cited as D&C or D. and C.) is a part of the open scriptural canon of several denominations of the Latter Day Saint movement. Originally published in 1835 as Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of the Latter Day Saints: Carefully Selected from the Revelations of God, editions of the book continue to be printed mainly by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) and the Community of Christ (formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints [RLDS Church]).

New stuff added to the D&C in 2010 & 2016, and many times besides that.

Anyone visited RLDS or checked them out in any way? qstn

Well the RLDS continue to add to the D&C on a regular basis they are up to 165 Sections now. The breakdown of their presidents and the number of additional sections added by each is as follows:

Joseph Smith: 107
The LDS share most of these as well with the exception of Section 111 (originally Section 101) which was the original marriage section which was removed by the LDS and replaced with LDS Section 132

Joseph Smith III: 17
Frederick M. Smith: 7
Israel A. Smith: 6
W. Wallace Smith: 9
Wallace B. Smith: 8
W. Grant McMurray: 2
Stephen M. Veazey: 3

Yeah, but have you read them? Such a lot of words to say very little.
McMurray's and Veasey's are particularly poor in my view. Lots of flowery words and phrases but very little substance

Well we could do the same for any number of sections even some from Joseph Smith. Some sections are just better than others. I don’t care for McMurry’s either but I rather like Veazey’s 163 also known as the “prophetic people” section where the Lord call upon all of us to obtain our own Witness and not rely, as Latter Day Saints are so prone to do, upon witness oft the leadership.

[Rand]

But are the members or leaders the ones in apostasy. Or are both?

Primarily the members.
In Ezek 34 I am certain it is speaking of the general membership, not the leadership. We each carry a ministry and the command to "feed my sheep". The sheep are not being fed, on either side of the veil.
1 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.
4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.
5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

it's actually the other way around.
it's primarily the leaders.
And those that care enough to keep the commandment the Lord gave,
to not only read, but search diligently the words of Isaiah - "for great are the words of Isaiah" ***
will know this.

Isaiah is full of scriptures showing that it is -
"The leaders of these people have misled them, and those who are led are confused” (Isaiah 9:13–16).

"O you deaf, listen; O you blind, look and see! seeing much but not giving heed, with open ears hearing nothing?” (Isaiah 42:17–20).

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=59515&p=1113267&hi ... 8#p1113267

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55396&p=1037704&hil ... h#p1037704

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=58863&p=1097535&hil ... 8#p1097535

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=59092&p=1101443&hil ... t#p1101443

***
3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers..."
DC 138:54 Including the building of the temples and the performance of ordinances therein for the redemption of the dead, were also in the spirit world.
55 I observed that they were also among the noble and great ones who were chosen in the beginning to be rulers in the Church of God.

[Robin Hood]

New stuff added to the D&C in 2010 & 2016, and many times besides that.

Anyone visited RLDS or checked them out in any way? qstn

Well the RLDS continue to add to the D&C on a regular basis they are up to 165 Sections now. The breakdown of their presidents and the number of additional sections added by each is as follows:

Joseph Smith: 107
The LDS share most of these as well with the exception of Section 111 (originally Section 101) which was the original marriage section which was removed by the LDS and replaced with LDS Section 132

Joseph Smith III: 17
Frederick M. Smith: 7
Israel A. Smith: 6
W. Wallace Smith: 9
Wallace B. Smith: 8
W. Grant McMurray: 2
Stephen M. Veazey: 3

Yeah, but have you read them? Such a lot of words to say very little.
McMurray's and Veasey's are particularly poor in my view. Lots of flowery words and phrases but very little substance

Well we could do the same for any number of sections even some from Joseph Smith. Some sections are just better than others. I don’t care for McMurry’s either but I rather like Veazey’s 163 also known as the “prophetic people” section where the Lord call upon all of us to obtain our own Witness and not rely, as Latter Day Saints are so prone to do, upon witness oft the leadership.

Interestingly, "prophetic people" was a phrase originally coined by McMurray.

I met Grant McMurray when he was president of the RLDS. We chatted for a few minutes. It was an underwhelming experience.... probably for both of us. He seemed really quite insincere.
He just appeared to be going through the motions, so I was not particularly surprised when he resigned.

[gkearney]

Well the RLDS continue to add to the D&C on a regular basis they are up to 165 Sections now. The breakdown of their presidents and the number of additional sections added by each is as follows:

Joseph Smith: 107
The LDS share most of these as well with the exception of Section 111 (originally Section 101) which was the original marriage section which was removed by the LDS and replaced with LDS Section 132

Joseph Smith III: 17
Frederick M. Smith: 7
Israel A. Smith: 6
W. Wallace Smith: 9
Wallace B. Smith: 8
W. Grant McMurray: 2
Stephen M. Veazey: 3

Yeah, but have you read them? Such a lot of words to say very little.
McMurray's and Veasey's are particularly poor in my view. Lots of flowery words and phrases but very little substance

Well we could do the same for any number of sections even some from Joseph Smith. Some sections are just better than others. I don’t care for McMurry’s either but I rather like Veazey’s 163 also known as the “prophetic people” section where the Lord call upon all of us to obtain our own Witness and not rely, as Latter Day Saints are so prone to do, upon witness oft the leadership.

Interestingly, "prophetic people" was a phrase originally coined by McMurray.

I met Grant McMurray when he was president of the RLDS. We chatted for a few minutes. It was an underwhelming experience.... probably for both of us. He seemed really quite insincere.
He just appeared to be going through the motions, so I was not particularly surprised when he resigned.

There has long been dark suggestions as to the reason he resigned. I agree with you he was ill suited for the calling. The current President is much better.

[Luke]

There has long been dark suggestions as to the reason he resigned. I agree with you he was ill suited for the calling. The current President is much better.

A shame he seems to be thoroughly on board the "inspired fiction" train

[simpleton]

Yeah, but have you read them? Such a lot of words to say very little.
McMurray's and Veasey's are particularly poor in my view. Lots of flowery words and phrases but very little substance

Well we could do the same for any number of sections even some from Joseph Smith. Some sections are just better than others. I don’t care for McMurry’s either but I rather like Veazey’s 163 also known as the “prophetic people” section where the Lord call upon all of us to obtain our own Witness and not rely, as Latter Day Saints are so prone to do, upon witness oft the leadership.

Interestingly, "prophetic people" was a phrase originally coined by McMurray.

I met Grant McMurray when he was president of the RLDS. We chatted for a few minutes. It was an underwhelming experience.... probably for both of us. He seemed really quite insincere.
He just appeared to be going through the motions, so I was not particularly surprised when he resigned.

There has long been dark suggestions as to the reason he resigned. I agree with you he was ill suited for the calling. The current President is much better.

He himself in his resignation letter said because of personal sins and unworthiness is why he resigned.

[BeNotDeceived]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_and_Covenants
The Doctrine and Covenants (sometimes abbreviated and cited as D&C or D. and C.) is a part of the open scriptural canon of several denominations of the Latter Day Saint movement. Originally published in 1835 as Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of the Latter Day Saints: Carefully Selected from the Revelations of God, editions of the book continue to be printed mainly by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) and the Community of Christ (formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints [RLDS Church]).

New stuff added to the D&C in 2010 & 2016, and many times besides that.

Anyone visited RLDS or checked them out in any way? qstn

Well the RLDS continue to add to the D&C on a regular basis they are up to 165 Sections now. The breakdown of their presidents and the number of additional sections added by each is as follows:

Joseph Smith: 107
The LDS share most of these as well with the exception of Section 111 (originally Section 101) which was the original marriage section which was removed by the LDS and replaced with LDS Section 132

Joseph Smith III: 17
Frederick M. Smith: 7
Israel A. Smith: 6
W. Wallace Smith: 9
Wallace B. Smith: 8
W. Grant McMurray: 2
Stephen M. Veazey: 3

Yeah, but have you read them? Such a lot of words to say very little.
McMurray's and Veasey's are particularly poor in my view. Lots of flowery words and phrases but very little substance

Only a few, as you suggest; anyone with a colorful example they feel differently about?

[mac]

A man or or woman that prays fervently and sincerely to the Saviour each and every day shall find comfort and strength, their feet shall never wander off the strait and narrow path and though they may stumble they shall be lifted up and helped along that narrow path to glory.......
For the One they hold daily sweet communication with, even Jesus walks alongside them apon that straight and narrow way and He will never leave you , nor forsake you..........

In the Last Days whosoever calls apon the name of the Lord (Jesus) shall be saved.

Confess your sins daily before Him, for He is quick to forgive, give Him thanks to Him for mercies given you both great and small, bear witness in your prayers that He is Lord and give him all praise...........

Happy is the man that remembers His Lord and Saviour every day, for he is the one that knows His Masters voice and will not follow the voice of a stranger...