LDS Freedom Forum

In my humble opinion, and everything here is my opinion; There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding with my statements about attempting to discuss 9-11 and other subjects with ward members and my priesthood leaders. I wish to clarify those misunderstandings.

I never attempt to take it upon myself to correct my priesthood leaders, no matter how wrong I think they might be. However simply discussing my views with them is a different subject, if they wish, I’ll discuss anything with them and have spent many hours doing so with a good many of them in the past, but now, with my current leaders, mostly they decline, and that’s fine with me. They are entitled to their portion of the Spirit. They tell me not to talk about something, I don’t talk about it in a meeting or classroom, and now,--- not even in the ward clerks office. Perhaps things will change with new leadership, perhaps not, actually, I have learned not to care. I feel sorry for them because they wish to remain in their ignorance about different subjects, but it’s their call, their agency!

I do not know how many ward and stake leaders have told me they simply don’t have time to study the scripture and pay attention to the signs of the times.---They don’t have time----Amazing! And yet, they seem to have sufficient knowledge to sometimes declare me wrong in my opinion, go figure!!! I forgive.

I could go shopping for a stake and ward that I might suppose has “more inspired” leadership and move there, but that’d serve no purpose but my own, and I’m not that selfish, it’s much easier for me to simply forgive and forget, and at my age the easier the better! Besides that, my current leadership just might be there for some other reason then emphasizing extended Gospel scholarship , and no matter how important I believe obtaining great knowledge is, they obviously do not! And I must live with that. But then, so must they!

It has always been my challenge to understand the truths of the complete Gospel so when I get to the Spirit World, I would be prepared to continue teaching and not have to spend time being taught. My wife JoAnn and I spent many very happy hours learning the depths of different gospel subjects. Wish she were still here, I miss her very inspired viewpoints.

Understanding obedience, forgiveness, Temple, seeking the Spirit, and most importantly for us at that moment, Salvation, were the subjects Jo and I studied most, especially Salvation, that one subject encompasses all other subjects. No less then our Lord has said “Every knee shall bend, every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ” How is it that we can so easily misunderstand the word “every”?

Neil A Maxwell, Some are so proud they never learn of obedience and spiritual submissiveness. They will have very arthritic knees on the day when every knee shall bend. There will be no gallery then to play to; all will be participants! (Ensign, May 1987, p. 70.)

President Kimball, May I repeat, the time will come when there will be a surrender of every person who has ever lived on this earth, who is now living, or who ever will live on this earth; and it will be an unforced surrender, an unconditional surrender. When will it be for you? Today? In twenty years? Two hundred years? Two thousand or a million? When? Again, to you, --- I say, it is not if you will capitulate to the great truth; it is when, for I know that you cannot indefinitely resist the power and pressure of truth. Why not now? Much time has been lost. The years ahead can be far more glorious for you than any years in the past. (Spencer W. Kimball. Sept Ensign, 1978. Messages of the First Presidency)

(4) And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God. (Alma 42:4)

How long is this “time granted unto man to repent? Lets look!

Brother Brigham; All that have lived or will live on this earth will have the privilege of receiving the Gospel. They (the dead) will have Apostles, Prophets, and ministers there, as we have here, to guide them in the ways of truth and righteousness, and lead them back to God. All will have a chance for salvation and eternal life. 6:149. (Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, selected and arranged by John A. Widtsoe)

Our Lord; (57) I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead (Spirit prison) (58) The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, (D&C 138:58

President Kimball; We learn about these absolute truths by being taught by the Spirit. These truths are “independent” in their spiritual sphere and are to be discovered spiritually, though they may be confirmed by experience and intellect. (See D&C 93:30.) The great prophet Jacob said that “the Spirit speaketh the truth. … Wherefore, it speaketh of things as they really are, and of things as they really will be.” (Jacob 4:13.) We need to be taught in order to understand life and who we really are. (Absolute Truth,” Ensign, Sep 1978, 3)

Recognizing and fully understanding who we really are, is the culmination of an important and extensive spiritual study of the scripture. The question, “who we really are?” begs an answer, and indeed the answer is so simple, so sublime, yet so hard for many of us to accept because we recognize our own failings. We recognize our own failings with little understanding that our Father in Heaven also recognizes our failings. We have difficulty understanding that he lived on an earth just like this one, he suffered through the same problems, sorrows and experienced the same joys and loving times we enjoy --- he knows our cares, our problems our sinful natures, beyond the shadow of doubt, he knows! “As (man) is God once was” begs the question, which man, the Savior, the prophet, the common man? Which was he, our Father in Heaven? The question is answered, “AS MAN IS”

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: "God does not look on sin with allowance, but when men have sinned, there must be allowance made for them." (History of the Church 5:24.) That is another way of saying God loves the sinner but condemns the sin.

President J. Reuben Clark, Jr.; You know, I believe that the Lord will help us. I believe if we go to him, he will give us wisdom, if we are living righteously. I believe he will answer our prayers. I believe that our Heavenly Father wants to save every one of his children. I do not think he intends to shut any of us off because of some slight transgression, some slight failure to observe some rule or regulation. There are the great elementals that we must observe, but he is not going to be captious about the lesser things. (Conference Report, October 1953, General Priesthood Meeting 84.)

President J. Reuben Clark, Jr; I believe that his juridical concept of his dealings with his children could be expressed in this way: I believe that in his justice and mercy he will give us the maximum reward for our acts, give us all that he can give, and in the reverse, I believe that he will impose upon us the minimum penalty which it is possible for him to impose. (Conference Report, October 1953, General Priesthood Meeting 84.)

Joseph Smith; Our Heavenly Father is more liberal in his views, and boundless in his mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive;
(Joseph Smith, Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 71.)(Ezra Taft Benson, Come unto Christ, Page 95.)

President Monson; Each priesthood holder attending this session tonight has a calling to serve, to put forth his best efforts in the work assigned to him. No assignment is menial in the work of the Lord for each has eternal consequences. President John Taylor warned us: “If you do not magnify your calling, God will hold you responsible for those whom you might have saved had you done your duty. And who of us can afford to be responsible for the delay of eternal life of a human soul? If great joy is the reward of saving one soul, then how terrible must be the remorse of those whose timid efforts have allowed a child of God to go unwarned or unaided so that he has to wait till a dependable servant of God comes along.” (President Monson, Oct 2008 General Conference, Priesthood Session)

Its my opinion that The Holy Ghost can burn the hell out of anyone. We speak of Paul, Alma the Younger, his son Corianton, the people of Ammon, their kings, Lamoni, his father and brother, who by their own admission committed so many murders. We speak of people like Zeezrom, the lawyer who contended with Alma and Amulek and was later converted, who then became a missionary and served with Alma and Amulek, some might call him a prophet.
We speak of the Lamanites guilty of conspiracy to commit murder hell bent on killing Nephi and Lehi in the prison, how they were stopped, scared spitless and then cleansed by the Holy Ghost, and as the Lord explains later, “they knew it not!” But who then, because of this cleansing turned into powerful missionaries, even if at the time of their cleansing they didn’t understand! Who else has been so cleansed, and knew it not? How about the vast majority of converts to the true church!

Indeed, the greatest sinner has an infinitely greater Savior and Redeemer! And, a stunningly loving Father in Heaven.

Understanding the Spirit, how the Holy Ghost teaches and cleanses us.

(11) For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God. (Meaning the Holy Ghost)

(12) Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind.

(13) Ye are not able to abide the presence of God now, neither the ministering of angels; wherefore, continue in patience until ye are perfected. (Doctrine and Covenants 67:11-13.)

President Woodruff; Thus one of the most important labors we can perform is to seek the Spirit. The older I get and the more I reflect upon the truths of the gospel, the more I am driven toward this one imperative: Seek the Spirit. If eternal life is indeed the greatest of all the gifts of God in eternity (D&C 6:13; 14:7), then surely the companionship of the Holy Ghost is the greatest gift we can receive in time, in this mortal sphere (Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, 5).

It is of eternal significance to me, therefore, that after his death Joseph Smith appeared to Brigham Young and implored: "Tell the people to be humble and faithful, and be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord and it will lead them right. Be careful and not turn away the still small voice; it will teach them what to do and where to go; it will yield the fruits of the kingdom. Tell the [people] to keep their hearts open to conviction, so that when the Holy Ghost comes to them, their hearts will be ready to receive it. They can tell the Spirit of the Lord from all other spirits; it will whisper peace and joy to their souls; it will take malice, hatred, strife and all evil from their hearts; and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness and build up the kingdom of God. Tell the [people] if they will follow the Spirit of the Lord, they will go right" (Journal History, 23 Feb. 1847). (Robert L. Millet, Alive in Christ: The Miracle of Spiritual Rebirth, 200 - 201.)

Sheesh, I get lost in these thing, this is way to long, sorry! If there's interest, I'll continue!

Bob

I see lots have read my initial thoughts on this thread, but it seems non have cared to answer the questions. So, I'll try again, one at a time;

"As man is God once was,"----"Once was?" Which kind/class of man was Our Father in Heaven while on the earth where he endured "his" mortal probation, rich, poor, a prophet, a Savior, the common man? As God "once was," a man, he is now no longer identified by that persona, he is no longer known by that name/title/whatever he had/was as a man. So what happened to that identity that our Father in Heaven "once was?" The identity he had while a man?

Bob

I'm not sure I understand the question. His persona wasn't lost, just perfected.

If, Those who are our Parents in Heaven, had names, "identities" while in "their" pre-existence as, in my opinion, we also had identities, names if you will, in our pre-existence while living with them. Example, our Heavenly Parents, when they were finished with their mortal and spirit world existence and then were resurrected, which identity (mortal and spirit world or pre-existent) identity are they now? When JoAnn and Bob Henstra get back to our Heavenly parents, after the resurrection, who will we be, JoAnn and Bob or who we were in our pre-existence with Bob and JoAnn under our belts/--sashes?

Mortality is but a moment in the grand scheme of things, who knows how long we spent with them who loved us with perfect love,--- and still do!

Are we not “just” strangers here?

Elder Maxwell: Eventually, the veil that now encloses us will be no more. Neither will time. (D&C 84:100.) Time is clearly not our natural dimension. Thus it is that we are never really at home in time. Alternately, we find ourselves wishing to hasten the passage of time or to hold back the dawn. We can do neither, of course, but whereas the fish is at home in water, we are clearly not at home in time—because we belong to eternity. Time, as much as any one thing, whispers to us that we are strangers here.
(Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book

There is a secret something that whispers to us we are but strangers here, that dust we are and to dust we shall return; but "the spirit shall go back to God who gave it." (with a physical body)
(Elder Abraham O. Woodruff, Conference Report, April 1904, Overflow Meeting 97.)

In my past, there are many times when I felt hurt and lost and sad, and sometimes, tragically foolish. Mostly now I feel loved. I’m secure in the knowledge that my Father’s love can reach past my persistent weakness, stupidity and stubbornness, and make something of me,---- “all things are possible!” At times it’s strange that after so many tearful times my soul can end up being so calmingly sweet, still, yet in my weakness, sometimes in my sadness I hear the still small voice declaring that we are simply strangers here, that our Heavenly Parents love us, and that they are anxious for our return, as their Heavenly Parents awaited their return. For me, when I have the sense to allow it (---Be a man Bob!) its a divine, Spirit filled sadness. Sweet. Filled with my intense longing for home, for them who first nurtured me there, whom I loved first!

In my opinion, whoever I was there is who I’ll be when I return to them.

Bob

Yes, and it's who you are now. It's the reason worldly pleasures can not fill you up. It's the reason you know truth when you encounter it. The earthly you is just you, exposed, vulnerable, with blinders on.

Yes, Chelc, with blinders on, But that doesn't explain what my identity will be when I'm resurrected.

My opinion (and please remember that everything I write is my opinion), is the blinders need not be there. However, are the blinders necessary, yes, to some, perhaps to most! Specifically, they’re there for those among us who refuse to actually search (not just read) the scripture. Although I do recognize that simply reading the scripture is of some value, even if we’re not understanding what we’re reading. That day will certainly come when those who do not seriously search, do as Alma the Younger did, while in his pit of despair, when he “finally” remembered his Fathers words---------

For some the blinders are necessary! As for me, I want rid of them, I have little interest in experiencing Alma’s pit!

Harold B. Lee stated: "Our existence is eternal. We use words rather loosely when we speak of the "life before this, and this life, and the next life," as though we were a cat of nine lives, when as a matter of fact we only have one life. This life we speak of did not begin with mortal birth. This life does not end with mortal death. There is something that is not created or made. The scriptures called it "intelligence," which at a certain stage in the pre-existence was organized into a "spirit." After that spirit had grown to a certain stature it then was given the opportunity by an all-wise Father to come into another stage for its development. It was added upon, and after having lived its span and having attained to its purpose in mortality, another change took place. We go, not into another life, in fact, but into another stage of the same life . There is something which was not created or made, and something which does not die, and that something shall live on forever." (Harold B. Lee, The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, page 74)

Man's search for the full and correct meaning of salvation in the stage of life we call mortality, then seems to be predicated on his degree of intelligence. It was true in the stage sometimes called pre mortality or pre-existence. This seems natural to the serious gospel student when we remember or finally understand that our "knowledge" or lack of it, is the only portion of mortality that passes with us into the next stage of existence.

That place which we commonly call "the spirit world" is actually right here with us. However, in that next stage of existence worldly knowledge is not included as knowledge of any "great worth". For example, I have no idea what a lawyer or even a doctor might accomplish in the spirit world, if being a lawyer or doctor is the limit of an individuals knowledge. When you consider that as mortals we spend less then two hours of the Lords time here in mortality, perhaps, we just might make an attempt to understand the scriptures, listen to the prophets, and especially understand the Temple, which understanding is of "great worth" in the next stage of our existence.


Joseph Smith: "Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection . And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come." (Doctrine & Covenants, 130:18-19)

Please notice above that the prophet is talking about the “resurrection,” not the spirit world. And notice also that the word "world" is singular not plural. It refers to "The Kingdom of God in heaven," or this earth when it is celestialized (This is our Savior’s earth, his Celestial kingdom) We remember that there are three (3) degrees of glory (intelligence) in the Celestial Kingdom. As in;The "glory" of God is intelligence, (D&C 93:36)

The glories are divided by the intelligence of the inhabitants of the glories. However, all three glories are “still” in the Celestial Kingdom.

Bob