Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
Post Reply
Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Amonhi »

TheDuke wrote: July 26th, 2022, 4:10 pm I think these last few statements are the ones looking at the wrong mark. If you read Isaiah, the DS is more than a teacher or prophet or messenger. He is a ruler, a warrior, a general, and it is his deeds as much as his teachings that will astound people and prepare for the return.

I can understand the concept of messenger vs. message, but that is not true of Moses, JS, or DS. If you miss them you miss the Lord as you wouldn't even have scriptures to read or enough knowledge of god to pray or a foundation to be Christian against. What you say may be true of RMN or Hinckley or Samuel, or Amos, but not of the DS. Try reading Isaiah again and see if the references to the DS are as just a messenger instead of almost a son (in Isaiah's hierarchy well above normal messengers).
Every righteous prophet and teacher from Adam to Noah to Jesus to Joseph Smith has attempted to help those who do not have the Holy Ghost to get it. Once they get it, they tell us to "follow the spirit, it will tell you all things that you should do". This is what given God power to lead and direct men Himself. Telling you all things that you should do includes finding, recognizing and accepting new scripture, righteous teachings, warnings, ordinances, etc. It includes knowledge of God, and how to pray. It IS the foundation of being a Christian because without it, you are not qualified to be a member of Christ's church.

Name a blessing that cannot be received without knowing the Davidic Servant? (Hint: D&C 76:50-70 tells us all the requirements and blessings of the Celestial kingdom. There is no mention of a requirement that we know or recognize the Davidic Servant. The very first requirement is that we have a testimony of Jesus, believe on his name and were baptized after his burial.)

Name something that we should do that we will not be instructed to do if we are following the Holy Ghost? (Hint: the Holy Ghost will tell you all things that you should do.)

Name something that we will not learn if we only learn that which is witnessed by the Holy Ghost? (Hint: The Holy Ghost will teach you all things.)

Even when Jesus himself is teaching us, we still feel, recognize and follow the Holy Ghost which tells us what He is saying is true.

If you are looking for the Davidic Servant, without the Holy Ghost, you may not recognize him and if you do and join his group without entering in at the door/gate, you will be considered a thief and a robber among the flock and not part of the flock. (As Jesus pointed out in John 10:1.)

If you are following the Holy Ghost, which tells you all things that you should do, then you will be led, (like Anna and Simeon were to the temple to meet the baby Jesus), where you will meet whomever the Lord desires you to meet. And you will do whatever the Lord desires you to do. If the Lord desires you to meet and support the Davidic Servant, then you will do so by following the Holy Ghost.

If the Davidic Servant is the Holy Ghost then, "I say to you, Receive the Holy Ghost". If he/she is not, then "I say to you, Receive the Holy Ghost". Trust not in the arm of flesh, even if it is Jesus or the Davidic Servant or an angel of light. Put your trust in that SPIRIT which leadeth to do good.
Doctrine and Covenants 11:12
12 And now, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good—yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit.
To support any other plan or path is to discredit the Holy Ghost and say that something or someone else is better to lead us. It is to say that we cannot trust the Holy Ghost to show us all things that we should do and that it will not teach us all things as well as someone else can. It is to blaspheme against the Holy Ghost which literally means to place something or someone else above the Holy Ghost as the leader or director of your lives. You can blaspheme Jesus and you can blaspheme God the Father, and still be forgiven. But if you blaspheme the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven in this world or the next.

Peace,
Amonhi

Bronco73idi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3623

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Bronco73idi »

This servant is supposed to be like a man named King David. So why do people think he’ll go forth and cry repentance? Did David? The lord sent Nathan as a prophet for King David’s time.

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Amonhi »

Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 10:27 am
Amonhi wrote: July 26th, 2022, 3:50 pm
Sarah wrote: July 26th, 2022, 12:35 pm Someone has to have the Keys of the Kingdom, and the authority to organize the Lord's church and administer the ordinances etc. We are not all meant to be individual islands, but must be organized.
Sarah wrote: July 26th, 2022, 12:35 pm Someone has to have the Keys of the Kingdom, and the authority to organize the Lord's church and administer the ordinances etc. We are not all meant to be individual islands, but must be organized.
If you can get the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, then the spirit will tell you all things that you should do, including what ordinances to receive by whom and to perform on whom.

It you don't have the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, then it doesn't matter what ordinances you receive by whom or what ordinances you perform on whom. Even if you find the right messenger with the right keys. See my previous post as to why...

Peace,
Amonhi
What was the point of Christ organizing a church when he was on the earth?
To teach and spread his doctrines which all together form his Gospel. Jesus said that for an organization to be HIS church, it must meet two requirements.
  • I must be called in his name.
  • It must teach his doctrine.
3 Nephi 27
8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.
His doctrines which form the fulness of his Gospel which the church is required to be built on to be his church, are:
  • Faith in Christ
  • True Repentance = Broken heart and a contrite spirit
  • Baptism by Water
  • then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things that you should do.
That's it. Those are the only doctrines of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, and the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Adding to or taking away from that list and calling it the doctrines of Christ comes of evil, opens the gates of hell to receive people and makes the church not Christ's church.

This was plainly taught in 2 Nephi 31 which concludes by saying,
2 Nephi 31
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
It was taught again by Jesus in 3 Nephi 11 after which he concluded by saying,
3 Nephi 11
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
It has been taught and declared over and over again by the Lord and his prophets, for example:
2Ne. 32:5-6
Again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, (faith, repentance, baptism), and receive the Holy Ghost, (baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost), it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, (happens after Calling and election and the Second Comforter). And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do."
D&C 39
5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospelrepentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.
D&C 33
11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;
13 And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.
That is why he organized the church. It was organized to spread his gospel which consists of all his doctrines and only his doctrines. Any organization that teaches more or less than this and calls it his doctrine is not his church and is not doing his work, but is opening the gates of hell to receive people.

Enduring to the end means following the Holy Ghost which tells us the words of Christ/God/the Iron rod which brings us to the end of the path which is eternal life.

Peace,
Amonhi

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6702

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Sarah »

Amonhi wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:42 pm
Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 10:27 am
Amonhi wrote: July 26th, 2022, 3:50 pm
Sarah wrote: July 26th, 2022, 12:35 pm Someone has to have the Keys of the Kingdom, and the authority to organize the Lord's church and administer the ordinances etc. We are not all meant to be individual islands, but must be organized.
Sarah wrote: July 26th, 2022, 12:35 pm Someone has to have the Keys of the Kingdom, and the authority to organize the Lord's church and administer the ordinances etc. We are not all meant to be individual islands, but must be organized.
If you can get the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, then the spirit will tell you all things that you should do, including what ordinances to receive by whom and to perform on whom.

It you don't have the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, then it doesn't matter what ordinances you receive by whom or what ordinances you perform on whom. Even if you find the right messenger with the right keys. See my previous post as to why...

Peace,
Amonhi
What was the point of Christ organizing a church when he was on the earth?
To teach and spread his doctrines which all together form his Gospel. Jesus said that for an organization to be HIS church, it must meet two requirements.
  • I must be called in his name.
  • It must teach his doctrine.
3 Nephi 27
8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.
His doctrines which form the fulness of his Gospel which the church is required to be built on to be his church, are:
  • Faith in Christ
  • True Repentance = Broken heart and a contrite spirit
  • Baptism by Water
  • then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things that you should do.
That's it. Those are the only doctrines of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, and the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Adding to or taking away from that list and calling it the doctrines of Christ comes of evil, opens the gates of hell to receive people and makes the church not Christ's church.

This was plainly taught in 2 Nephi 31 which concludes by saying,
2 Nephi 31
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
It was taught again by Jesus in 3 Nephi 11 after which he concluded by saying,
3 Nephi 11
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
It has been taught and declared over and over again by the Lord and his prophets, for example:
2Ne. 32:5-6
Again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, (faith, repentance, baptism), and receive the Holy Ghost, (baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost), it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, (happens after Calling and election and the Second Comforter). And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do."
D&C 39
5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospelrepentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.
D&C 33
11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;
13 And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.
That is why he organized the church. It was organized to spread his gospel which consists of all his doctrines and only his doctrines. Any organization that teaches more or less than this and calls it his doctrine is not his church and is not doing his work, but is opening the gates of hell to receive people.

Enduring to the end means following the Holy Ghost which tells us the words of Christ/God/the Iron rod which brings us to the end of the path which is eternal life.

Peace,
Amonhi
Joseph Smith taught more than those basics, so what do you think of the church he started?

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Luke »

Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:50 pm
Amonhi wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:42 pm
Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 10:27 am
Amonhi wrote: July 26th, 2022, 3:50 pm



If you can get the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, then the spirit will tell you all things that you should do, including what ordinances to receive by whom and to perform on whom.

It you don't have the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, then it doesn't matter what ordinances you receive by whom or what ordinances you perform on whom. Even if you find the right messenger with the right keys. See my previous post as to why...

Peace,
Amonhi
What was the point of Christ organizing a church when he was on the earth?
To teach and spread his doctrines which all together form his Gospel. Jesus said that for an organization to be HIS church, it must meet two requirements.
  • I must be called in his name.
  • It must teach his doctrine.
3 Nephi 27
8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.
His doctrines which form the fulness of his Gospel which the church is required to be built on to be his church, are:
  • Faith in Christ
  • True Repentance = Broken heart and a contrite spirit
  • Baptism by Water
  • then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things that you should do.
That's it. Those are the only doctrines of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, and the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Adding to or taking away from that list and calling it the doctrines of Christ comes of evil, opens the gates of hell to receive people and makes the church not Christ's church.

This was plainly taught in 2 Nephi 31 which concludes by saying,
2 Nephi 31
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
It was taught again by Jesus in 3 Nephi 11 after which he concluded by saying,
3 Nephi 11
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
It has been taught and declared over and over again by the Lord and his prophets, for example:
2Ne. 32:5-6
Again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, (faith, repentance, baptism), and receive the Holy Ghost, (baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost), it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, (happens after Calling and election and the Second Comforter). And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do."
D&C 39
5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospelrepentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.
D&C 33
11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;
13 And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.
That is why he organized the church. It was organized to spread his gospel which consists of all his doctrines and only his doctrines. Any organization that teaches more or less than this and calls it his doctrine is not his church and is not doing his work, but is opening the gates of hell to receive people.

Enduring to the end means following the Holy Ghost which tells us the words of Christ/God/the Iron rod which brings us to the end of the path which is eternal life.

Peace,
Amonhi
Joseph Smith taught more than those basics, so what do you think of the church he started?
He absolutely taught something more (which I wholeheartedly believe in), but he never said it was part of “the Doctrine of Christ” or first principles.

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6702

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Sarah »

Luke wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:58 pm
Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:50 pm
Amonhi wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:42 pm
Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 10:27 am

What was the point of Christ organizing a church when he was on the earth?
To teach and spread his doctrines which all together form his Gospel. Jesus said that for an organization to be HIS church, it must meet two requirements.
  • I must be called in his name.
  • It must teach his doctrine.
3 Nephi 27
8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.
His doctrines which form the fulness of his Gospel which the church is required to be built on to be his church, are:
  • Faith in Christ
  • True Repentance = Broken heart and a contrite spirit
  • Baptism by Water
  • then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things that you should do.
That's it. Those are the only doctrines of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, and the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Adding to or taking away from that list and calling it the doctrines of Christ comes of evil, opens the gates of hell to receive people and makes the church not Christ's church.

This was plainly taught in 2 Nephi 31 which concludes by saying,
2 Nephi 31
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
It was taught again by Jesus in 3 Nephi 11 after which he concluded by saying,
3 Nephi 11
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
It has been taught and declared over and over again by the Lord and his prophets, for example:
2Ne. 32:5-6
Again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, (faith, repentance, baptism), and receive the Holy Ghost, (baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost), it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, (happens after Calling and election and the Second Comforter). And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do."
D&C 39
5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospelrepentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.
D&C 33
11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;
13 And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.
That is why he organized the church. It was organized to spread his gospel which consists of all his doctrines and only his doctrines. Any organization that teaches more or less than this and calls it his doctrine is not his church and is not doing his work, but is opening the gates of hell to receive people.

Enduring to the end means following the Holy Ghost which tells us the words of Christ/God/the Iron rod which brings us to the end of the path which is eternal life.

Peace,
Amonhi
Joseph Smith taught more than those basics, so what do you think of the church he started?
He absolutely taught something more (which I wholeheartedly believe in), but he never said it was part of “the Doctrine of Christ” or first principles.
I agree with that. But the LDS church also teaches these basics as the doctrine of Christ and as the first principles of the gospel.

Mamabear
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3351

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Mamabear »

Amonhi wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:42 pm
Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 10:27 am
Amonhi wrote: July 26th, 2022, 3:50 pm
Sarah wrote: July 26th, 2022, 12:35 pm Someone has to have the Keys of the Kingdom, and the authority to organize the Lord's church and administer the ordinances etc. We are not all meant to be individual islands, but must be organized.
Sarah wrote: July 26th, 2022, 12:35 pm Someone has to have the Keys of the Kingdom, and the authority to organize the Lord's church and administer the ordinances etc. We are not all meant to be individual islands, but must be organized.
If you can get the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, then the spirit will tell you all things that you should do, including what ordinances to receive by whom and to perform on whom.

It you don't have the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, then it doesn't matter what ordinances you receive by whom or what ordinances you perform on whom. Even if you find the right messenger with the right keys. See my previous post as to why...

Peace,
Amonhi
What was the point of Christ organizing a church when he was on the earth?
To teach and spread his doctrines which all together form his Gospel. Jesus said that for an organization to be HIS church, it must meet two requirements.
  • I must be called in his name.
  • It must teach his doctrine.
3 Nephi 27
8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.
His doctrines which form the fulness of his Gospel which the church is required to be built on to be his church, are:
  • Faith in Christ
  • True Repentance = Broken heart and a contrite spirit
  • Baptism by Water
  • then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things that you should do.
That's it. Those are the only doctrines of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, and the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Adding to or taking away from that list and calling it the doctrines of Christ comes of evil, opens the gates of hell to receive people and makes the church not Christ's church.

This was plainly taught in 2 Nephi 31 which concludes by saying,
2 Nephi 31
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
It was taught again by Jesus in 3 Nephi 11 after which he concluded by saying,
3 Nephi 11
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
It has been taught and declared over and over again by the Lord and his prophets, for example:
2Ne. 32:5-6
Again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, (faith, repentance, baptism), and receive the Holy Ghost, (baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost), it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, (happens after Calling and election and the Second Comforter). And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do."
D&C 39
5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospelrepentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.
D&C 33
11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;
13 And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.
That is why he organized the church. It was organized to spread his gospel which consists of all his doctrines and only his doctrines. Any organization that teaches more or less than this and calls it his doctrine is not his church and is not doing his work, but is opening the gates of hell to receive people.

Enduring to the end means following the Holy Ghost which tells us the words of Christ/God/the Iron rod which brings us to the end of the path which is eternal life.

Peace,
Amonhi
“Faith in Christ
[*]True Repentance = Broken heart and a contrite spirit
[*]Baptism by Water
[*]then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things that you should do.“

Unfortunately, collectively, we are stuck between steps 3&4 and we won’t be able to progress until we achieve step 4.
When we get the basics down then things will start to happen individually and collectively.

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Amonhi »

Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:50 pm
Amonhi wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:42 pm
Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 10:27 am
Amonhi wrote: July 26th, 2022, 3:50 pm



If you can get the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, then the spirit will tell you all things that you should do, including what ordinances to receive by whom and to perform on whom.

It you don't have the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, then it doesn't matter what ordinances you receive by whom or what ordinances you perform on whom. Even if you find the right messenger with the right keys. See my previous post as to why...

Peace,
Amonhi
What was the point of Christ organizing a church when he was on the earth?
To teach and spread his doctrines which all together form his Gospel. Jesus said that for an organization to be HIS church, it must meet two requirements.
  • I must be called in his name.
  • It must teach his doctrine.
3 Nephi 27
8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.
His doctrines which form the fulness of his Gospel which the church is required to be built on to be his church, are:
  • Faith in Christ
  • True Repentance = Broken heart and a contrite spirit
  • Baptism by Water
  • then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things that you should do.
That's it. Those are the only doctrines of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, and the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Adding to or taking away from that list and calling it the doctrines of Christ comes of evil, opens the gates of hell to receive people and makes the church not Christ's church.

This was plainly taught in 2 Nephi 31 which concludes by saying,
2 Nephi 31
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
It was taught again by Jesus in 3 Nephi 11 after which he concluded by saying,
3 Nephi 11
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
It has been taught and declared over and over again by the Lord and his prophets, for example:
2Ne. 32:5-6
Again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, (faith, repentance, baptism), and receive the Holy Ghost, (baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost), it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, (happens after Calling and election and the Second Comforter). And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do."
D&C 39
5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospelrepentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.
D&C 33
11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;
13 And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.
That is why he organized the church. It was organized to spread his gospel which consists of all his doctrines and only his doctrines. Any organization that teaches more or less than this and calls it his doctrine is not his church and is not doing his work, but is opening the gates of hell to receive people.

Enduring to the end means following the Holy Ghost which tells us the words of Christ/God/the Iron rod which brings us to the end of the path which is eternal life.

Peace,
Amonhi
Joseph Smith taught more than those basics, so what do you think of the church he started?
If the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Doctrine & Covenants are correct and they agree in stating the mind and will of the Lord saying,
3 Nephi 11
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
...then Christ's true church will not teach more or less than what is spelled out in 2 Nephi 31, 3 Nephi 11 and call it "the doctrine of Christ". If they teach more or less than what Jesus clearly stated as the only and true doctrine of the Father, son and Holy Ghost, AND they call it Christ's doctrine, then it is not and cannot be Christ's church because Christ's church does not teach things that come of evil and opens the gates of hell to receive people.

This does not mean that Christ's church cannot teach other principles, truths, etc. As long as the church's only "Doctrine" is aligned with Christ's only "Doctrine", then it is Christ's church and they can teach anything they want because the Doctrine says that the Holy Ghost will teach you all things and show you all things that you should do. That means that in Christ's church people follow the Holy Ghost which is the mind and will of God and not men.

If the church teaches more or less than this and calls it "doctrine" then the church's doctrine is not aligned with Christ's doctrine/gospel and it is not and cannot be Christ's church. (see 3 Nephi 27:8) Christ's Church only teaches Christ's doctrine as "doctrine" and has no other "doctrines". These doctrines are the only doctrines of God the Father, the son and the Holy Ghost, they had better be the only doctrines of Christ's church. If it is good enough for them, then it is good enough for his church. It becomes the foundation on which everything the Church teaches and does is based.

If the church is built on that foundation, then it doesn't matter what else the church or any member of the church or any pretended Holy person in the church teaches because the true members of Christ's church will listen to and follow the Holy Ghost which tells them the philosophies of men from the scripture.

Joseph Smith restored the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as spelled out in the scriptures. Few members are taught this or understand it or follow it today. Today, leaders of the church all the way up to the President of the church teach things that they call the doctrines of Christ which are not. In doing so they open the gates of hell to receive people. The most common of these false doctrines taught in the church today is "Follow the Prophet" which is a doctrine that is in exact opposition to the doctrine of Christ which tells us to only follow the spirit. It is also in direct contradiction of D&C 121:41-42, D&C 50:19-20 and several other instructions by the Lord.

Also, you seem to thing that people can't follow the plan without a righteous church with righteous leadership. Our personal progression does not require a righteous church or leadership.

Anna and Simeon lived in Jerusalem when Jesus was born. They lived and grew up into the Law of Moses and Church system that had been led astray and was corrupted. They had to deal with everything wrong with the church including the false teachings and lack of true authority. Yet, these two people had received the Holy Ghost which led them to Jesus and helped them recognize Jesus as a baby. You don't need a righteous church or priesthood authority or ordinances to come to Christ and receive the Holy Ghost and follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There are countless similar stories showing this throughout the scriptures. Every restoration that ever happened was the result of a person seeking righteousness, living in a time where the church was corrupt and didn't have priesthood authority. In each instance, the person figured out that they needed to go to God directly which is the Gospel plan. Every one of us is in apostacy until we go to God directly and overcome our own personal fall from God's presence by receiving the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. No one can do it for you. No prophet or president of the church or righteous church organization can overcome your own personal apostacy for you. You must do it for yourself or remain in apostacy from God. The only way to overcome your own personal apostacy is to repent with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost which brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Then and only then are you worthy of being baptized, (D&C 20:37, 3 Nephi 7:25). If you are baptized before this, then you have broken the commandment of the Lord, (D&C 20:37), and you are not worthy of being a member of Christ's church, (Mosiah 26:21 & 28).

The fact that you don't know this is a testimony to what you have been taught by the church you attend and believe in. The fact that you think the doctrines of Christ include many more things than what is taught by Jesus and his prophets in the scriptures is a testimony to you that the church today is not Christ's church because it teaches doctrines that come of evil and open the gates of hell to receive you.

Only those who know and follow the true doctrines of Christ are built on the rock from which they cannot fall. Within the church there are those who are built on the rock and follow the doctrines of Christ and those who are not and do not. The Wheat and the Tares. They both do the same things, but for different reasons. Some are spiritually alive and some are spiritually dead. There will be a time when the tares are gathered together and cast into the fire. There are many tares in leadership positions in the church, teachings false doctrines. They are the thieves and robbers Jesus spoke of who entered in but not by the gate/door. They are thieves and robbers because they are teaching doctrines that take people away from Christ and his Church and his gospel.

There are some in the church like myself who teach the doctrines of Christ as spelled out in the scriptures. His sheep hear his voice and they come to him. Those who are not his sheep look for messengers and positions to follow rather than following his voice. They are not his sheep because they don't know or follow his voice.

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Amonhi »

Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 2:13 pm
Luke wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:58 pm
Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:50 pm
Amonhi wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:42 pm
To teach and spread his doctrines which all together form his Gospel. Jesus said that for an organization to be HIS church, it must meet two requirements.
  • I must be called in his name.
  • It must teach his doctrine.

His doctrines which form the fulness of his Gospel which the church is required to be built on to be his church, are:
  • Faith in Christ
  • True Repentance = Broken heart and a contrite spirit
  • Baptism by Water
  • then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things that you should do.
That's it. Those are the only doctrines of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, and the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Adding to or taking away from that list and calling it the doctrines of Christ comes of evil, opens the gates of hell to receive people and makes the church not Christ's church.

This was plainly taught in 2 Nephi 31 which concludes by saying,


It was taught again by Jesus in 3 Nephi 11 after which he concluded by saying,


It has been taught and declared over and over again by the Lord and his prophets, for example:






That is why he organized the church. It was organized to spread his gospel which consists of all his doctrines and only his doctrines. Any organization that teaches more or less than this and calls it his doctrine is not his church and is not doing his work, but is opening the gates of hell to receive people.

Enduring to the end means following the Holy Ghost which tells us the words of Christ/God/the Iron rod which brings us to the end of the path which is eternal life.

Peace,
Amonhi
Joseph Smith taught more than those basics, so what do you think of the church he started?
He absolutely taught something more (which I wholeheartedly believe in), but he never said it was part of “the Doctrine of Christ” or first principles.
I agree with that. But the LDS church also teaches these basics as the doctrine of Christ and as the first principles of the gospel.
The term "first principles of the Gospel" means that there are more principles, like "the Second principles of the Gospel". If the church today teaches that these are only the first doctrines of Christ and there are more doctrines of Christ which make up his gospel, then they have "added to" the list which Christ said could not be added to or taken away from. This means that what the church teaches today and calls the doctrine of Christ "comes of evil and opens the gates of hell".

BTW, The articles of faith the church teaches today were changed from the original articles of faith written by Joseph Smith. Here are the original articles of faith 3 and 4 as given by Joseph Smith.
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that these ordinances are: 1st [first], Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; 2d [second], Repentance; 3d [third], Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; 4th [fourth], Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. - Joseph Smith
Notice that he did not add to the doctrine of Christ and create a new gospel which is taught today in the LDS Church.

Peace,
Amonhi

User avatar
SPIRIT
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5690
Location: Kolob

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by SPIRIT »

Sarah wrote: July 26th, 2022, 12:35 pm Someone has to have the Keys of the Kingdom, and the authority to organize the Lord's church and administer the ordinances etc. We are not all meant to be individual islands, but must be organized.
I guess you haven't read the Book of Mormon very much,
to find out what happened to a people - and will happen to us - for not heeding their warnings.
A people who once had the gospel and lost it -
You're like them - in your pride - saying
" we are the one and only true church - we have the one and only true gospel and will never lose it"
famous last words.

they (The House of Israel) actually lost it to us - and now, we (the Gentiles) will lose it back to them;
but of course you wouldn't know that, because you care more about blindly following church leaders
and what they say, than you do in reading and believing in the scriptures and what they say.

It's all through our scriptures ! our apostasy and losing the gospel back to The House of Israel.

The first will be last and the last, first

"At the first, the Jews (in the Book of Mormon vernacular, meaning the house of Israel) were redeemed, then they rejected God and the gospel was taken to the Gentiles. (Acts 10.) In these last days, Joseph Smith restored the gospel among the Gentiles; and when they reject it, it will be taken back to the Jews, and they will be redeemed.
Hence, the first will be last and the last, first."
(1 Ne. 13:42; Jacob 5:63; Ether 13:12; D&C 88:59; Matt. 19:30; 20:8,16.)


"Two consecutive histories of fallen peoples on this land fore-warn
the Gentiles of their own imminent fate. (Eth. 2:11; 8:21-26).
Mormon has vividly described the destruction of the Nephites. (Morm. 6:1-22).
Now Moroni recounts the destruction of the Jaredites in order to persuade
the Gentiles to repent."
(Eth. 2:11; 8:23).
Last edited by SPIRIT on July 28th, 2022, 2:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
SPIRIT
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5690
Location: Kolob

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by SPIRIT »

Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 10:27 am
Amonhi wrote: July 26th, 2022, 3:50 pm
Sarah wrote: July 26th, 2022, 12:35 pm Someone has to have the Keys of the Kingdom, and the authority to organize the Lord's church and administer the ordinances etc. We are not all meant to be individual islands, but must be organized.
Sarah wrote: July 26th, 2022, 12:35 pm Someone has to have the Keys of the Kingdom, and the authority to organize the Lord's church and administer the ordinances etc. We are not all meant to be individual islands, but must be organized.
If you can get the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, then the spirit will tell you all things that you should do, including what ordinances to receive by whom and to perform on whom.

It you don't have the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, then it doesn't matter what ordinances you receive by whom or what ordinances you perform on whom. Even if you find the right messenger with the right keys. See my previous post as to why...

Peace,
Amonhi
What was the point of Christ organizing a church when he was on the earth?
What was the point of Christ organizing a church when he was on the earth
and gave His gospel to the Nephites ?

ans look what happened to them - and will happen to us.

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6702

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Sarah »

SPIRIT wrote: July 28th, 2022, 12:48 am
Sarah wrote: July 26th, 2022, 12:35 pm Someone has to have the Keys of the Kingdom, and the authority to organize the Lord's church and administer the ordinances etc. We are not all meant to be individual islands, but must be organized.
I guess you haven't read the Book of Mormon very much,
to find out what happened to a people - and will happen to us - for not heeding their warnings.
A people who once had the gospel and lost it -
You're like them - in your pride - saying
" we are the one and only rue church - we have the one and only true gospel and will never lose it"
famous last words.

they (The House of Israel) actually lost it to us - and now, we (the Gentiles) will lose it back to them;
but of course you wouldn't know that, because you care more about blindly following church leaders
and what they say, than you do in reading and believing in the scriptures and what they say.


"Two consecutive histories of fallen peoples on this land fore-warn
the Gentiles of their own imminent fate. (Eth. 2:11; 8:21-26).
Mormon has vividly described the destruction of the Nephites. (Morm. 6:1-22).
Now Moroni recounts the destruction of the Jaredites in order to persuade
the Gentiles to repent."
(Eth. 2:11; 8:23).
Yes, the Gentiles will go down, but I am no longer a gentile, but am part of covenant Israel, because I keep my covenants that were performed under Priesthood authority. I am one of the ones spoken of in the BofM that has believed and is numbered among the house of Israel.

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6702

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Sarah »

SPIRIT wrote: July 28th, 2022, 1:09 am
Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 10:27 am
Amonhi wrote: July 26th, 2022, 3:50 pm
Sarah wrote: July 26th, 2022, 12:35 pm Someone has to have the Keys of the Kingdom, and the authority to organize the Lord's church and administer the ordinances etc. We are not all meant to be individual islands, but must be organized.
Sarah wrote: July 26th, 2022, 12:35 pm Someone has to have the Keys of the Kingdom, and the authority to organize the Lord's church and administer the ordinances etc. We are not all meant to be individual islands, but must be organized.
If you can get the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, then the spirit will tell you all things that you should do, including what ordinances to receive by whom and to perform on whom.

It you don't have the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, then it doesn't matter what ordinances you receive by whom or what ordinances you perform on whom. Even if you find the right messenger with the right keys. See my previous post as to why...

Peace,
Amonhi
What was the point of Christ organizing a church when he was on the earth?
What was the point of Christ organizing a church when he was on the earth
and gave His gospel to the Nephites ?

ans look what happened to them - and will happen to us.
The point of a church is to have a family of believers, a covenant group, all baptized under Priesthood authority. We are to help each other and teach each other and take the sacrament together and worship together.

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6702

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Sarah »

Amonhi wrote: July 27th, 2022, 5:45 pm
Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 2:13 pm
Luke wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:58 pm
Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:50 pm

Joseph Smith taught more than those basics, so what do you think of the church he started?
He absolutely taught something more (which I wholeheartedly believe in), but he never said it was part of “the Doctrine of Christ” or first principles.
I agree with that. But the LDS church also teaches these basics as the doctrine of Christ and as the first principles of the gospel.
The term "first principles of the Gospel" means that there are more principles, like "the Second principles of the Gospel". If the church today teaches that these are only the first doctrines of Christ and there are more doctrines of Christ which make up his gospel, then they have "added to" the list which Christ said could not be added to or taken away from. This means that what the church teaches today and calls the doctrine of Christ "comes of evil and opens the gates of hell".

BTW, The articles of faith the church teaches today were changed from the original articles of faith written by Joseph Smith. Here are the original articles of faith 3 and 4 as given by Joseph Smith.
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that these ordinances are: 1st [first], Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; 2d [second], Repentance; 3d [third], Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; 4th [fourth], Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. - Joseph Smith
Notice that he did not add to the doctrine of Christ and create a new gospel which is taught today in the LDS Church.

Peace,
Amonhi
In the third article of faith JS speaks of being saved by obeying the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Christ. And the ordinances (principles) of the gospel to get you saved are indeed these first four things.

Exaltation, and the ordinances associated with those blessings were revealed to Joseph Smith. The scripture you quoted earlier speaks of building upon the foundation of the doctrine of Christ, so that is exactly what is going on here, Joseph Smith built upon the foundation of the doctrine of Christ with his revealed word, and revealed to us other truths that lead to exaltation.

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6702

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Sarah »

Amonhi wrote: July 27th, 2022, 5:38 pm
Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:50 pm
Amonhi wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:42 pm
Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 10:27 am

What was the point of Christ organizing a church when he was on the earth?
To teach and spread his doctrines which all together form his Gospel. Jesus said that for an organization to be HIS church, it must meet two requirements.
  • I must be called in his name.
  • It must teach his doctrine.
3 Nephi 27
8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.
His doctrines which form the fulness of his Gospel which the church is required to be built on to be his church, are:
  • Faith in Christ
  • True Repentance = Broken heart and a contrite spirit
  • Baptism by Water
  • then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things that you should do.
That's it. Those are the only doctrines of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, and the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Adding to or taking away from that list and calling it the doctrines of Christ comes of evil, opens the gates of hell to receive people and makes the church not Christ's church.

This was plainly taught in 2 Nephi 31 which concludes by saying,
2 Nephi 31
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
It was taught again by Jesus in 3 Nephi 11 after which he concluded by saying,
3 Nephi 11
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
It has been taught and declared over and over again by the Lord and his prophets, for example:
2Ne. 32:5-6
Again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, (faith, repentance, baptism), and receive the Holy Ghost, (baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost), it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, (happens after Calling and election and the Second Comforter). And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do."
D&C 39
5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospelrepentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.
D&C 33
11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;
13 And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.
That is why he organized the church. It was organized to spread his gospel which consists of all his doctrines and only his doctrines. Any organization that teaches more or less than this and calls it his doctrine is not his church and is not doing his work, but is opening the gates of hell to receive people.

Enduring to the end means following the Holy Ghost which tells us the words of Christ/God/the Iron rod which brings us to the end of the path which is eternal life.

Peace,
Amonhi
Joseph Smith taught more than those basics, so what do you think of the church he started?
If the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Doctrine & Covenants are correct and they agree in stating the mind and will of the Lord saying,
3 Nephi 11
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
...then Christ's true church will not teach more or less than what is spelled out in 2 Nephi 31, 3 Nephi 11 and call it "the doctrine of Christ". If they teach more or less than what Jesus clearly stated as the only and true doctrine of the Father, son and Holy Ghost, AND they call it Christ's doctrine, then it is not and cannot be Christ's church because Christ's church does not teach things that come of evil and opens the gates of hell to receive people.

This does not mean that Christ's church cannot teach other principles, truths, etc. As long as the church's only "Doctrine" is aligned with Christ's only "Doctrine", then it is Christ's church and they can teach anything they want because the Doctrine says that the Holy Ghost will teach you all things and show you all things that you should do. That means that in Christ's church people follow the Holy Ghost which is the mind and will of God and not men.

If the church teaches more or less than this and calls it "doctrine" then the church's doctrine is not aligned with Christ's doctrine/gospel and it is not and cannot be Christ's church. (see 3 Nephi 27:8) Christ's Church only teaches Christ's doctrine as "doctrine" and has no other "doctrines". These doctrines are the only doctrines of God the Father, the son and the Holy Ghost, they had better be the only doctrines of Christ's church. If it is good enough for them, then it is good enough for his church. It becomes the foundation on which everything the Church teaches and does is based.

If the church is built on that foundation, then it doesn't matter what else the church or any member of the church or any pretended Holy person in the church teaches because the true members of Christ's church will listen to and follow the Holy Ghost which tells them the philosophies of men from the scripture.

Joseph Smith restored the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as spelled out in the scriptures. Few members are taught this or understand it or follow it today. Today, leaders of the church all the way up to the President of the church teach things that they call the doctrines of Christ which are not. In doing so they open the gates of hell to receive people. The most common of these false doctrines taught in the church today is "Follow the Prophet" which is a doctrine that is in exact opposition to the doctrine of Christ which tells us to only follow the spirit. It is also in direct contradiction of D&C 121:41-42, D&C 50:19-20 and several other instructions by the Lord.

Also, you seem to thing that people can't follow the plan without a righteous church with righteous leadership. Our personal progression does not require a righteous church or leadership.

Anna and Simeon lived in Jerusalem when Jesus was born. They lived and grew up into the Law of Moses and Church system that had been led astray and was corrupted. They had to deal with everything wrong with the church including the false teachings and lack of true authority. Yet, these two people had received the Holy Ghost which led them to Jesus and helped them recognize Jesus as a baby. You don't need a righteous church or priesthood authority or ordinances to come to Christ and receive the Holy Ghost and follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There are countless similar stories showing this throughout the scriptures. Every restoration that ever happened was the result of a person seeking righteousness, living in a time where the church was corrupt and didn't have priesthood authority. In each instance, the person figured out that they needed to go to God directly which is the Gospel plan. Every one of us is in apostacy until we go to God directly and overcome our own personal fall from God's presence by receiving the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. No one can do it for you. No prophet or president of the church or righteous church organization can overcome your own personal apostacy for you. You must do it for yourself or remain in apostacy from God. The only way to overcome your own personal apostacy is to repent with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost which brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Then and only then are you worthy of being baptized, (D&C 20:37, 3 Nephi 7:25). If you are baptized before this, then you have broken the commandment of the Lord, (D&C 20:37), and you are not worthy of being a member of Christ's church, (Mosiah 26:21 & 28).

The fact that you don't know this is a testimony to what you have been taught by the church you attend and believe in. The fact that you think the doctrines of Christ include many more things than what is taught by Jesus and his prophets in the scriptures is a testimony to you that the church today is not Christ's church because it teaches doctrines that come of evil and open the gates of hell to receive you.

Only those who know and follow the true doctrines of Christ are built on the rock from which they cannot fall. Within the church there are those who are built on the rock and follow the doctrines of Christ and those who are not and do not. The Wheat and the Tares. They both do the same things, but for different reasons. Some are spiritually alive and some are spiritually dead. There will be a time when the tares are gathered together and cast into the fire. There are many tares in leadership positions in the church, teachings false doctrines. They are the thieves and robbers Jesus spoke of who entered in but not by the gate/door. They are thieves and robbers because they are teaching doctrines that take people away from Christ and his Church and his gospel.

There are some in the church like myself who teach the doctrines of Christ as spelled out in the scriptures. His sheep hear his voice and they come to him. Those who are not his sheep look for messengers and positions to follow rather than following his voice. They are not his sheep because they don't know or follow his voice.

Peace,
Amonhi
You said: "There are some in the church like myself who teach the doctrines of Christ as spelled out in the scriptures. His sheep hear his voice and they come to him. Those who are not his sheep look for messengers and positions to follow rather than following his voice. They are not his sheep because they don't know or follow his voice."

You claim to hear his voice, and so do I, and so do the prophets and apostles of our church. You claim to teach out of the scriptures, but the scriptures are filled with messengers. The scriptures were written by messengers and people with "positions," so if you are going off the scriptures, you too are looking to messengers to know the truth.

User avatar
SPIRIT
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5690
Location: Kolob

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by SPIRIT »

Sarah wrote: July 28th, 2022, 8:13 am
SPIRIT wrote: July 28th, 2022, 12:48 am
Sarah wrote: July 26th, 2022, 12:35 pm Someone has to have the Keys of the Kingdom, and the authority to organize the Lord's church and administer the ordinances etc. We are not all meant to be individual islands, but must be organized.
I guess you haven't read the Book of Mormon very much,
to find out what happened to a people - and will happen to us - for not heeding their warnings.
A people who once had the gospel and lost it -
You're like them - in your pride - saying
" we are the one and only rue church - we have the one and only true gospel and will never lose it"
famous last words.

they (The House of Israel) actually lost it to us - and now, we (the Gentiles) will lose it back to them;
but of course you wouldn't know that, because you care more about blindly following church leaders
and what they say, than you do in reading and believing in the scriptures and what they say.


"Two consecutive histories of fallen peoples on this land fore-warn
the Gentiles of their own imminent fate. (Eth. 2:11; 8:21-26).
Mormon has vividly described the destruction of the Nephites. (Morm. 6:1-22).
Now Moroni recounts the destruction of the Jaredites in order to persuade
the Gentiles to repent."
(Eth. 2:11; 8:23).
Yes, the Gentiles will go down, but I am no longer a gentile, but am part of covenant Israel, because I keep my covenants that were performed under Priesthood authority. I am one of the ones spoken of in the BofM that has believed and is numbered among the house of Israel.
sorry, but you're a Gentile.
And will stay a Gentile until you perform your saving mission towards The House of Israel.
AND ONLY THEN - will you be numbered among The House of Israel.

Our only hope is to be numbered with The House of Israel - the Lord's covenant people.
" The Lord has ordained no salvation or plan of salvation outside of the covenant with His people Israel"

"The repentant Gentiles are numbered with The House of Israel ONLY after they
perform their saving mission toward them.
The claim that Latter-Day Saints are of the House of Israel, descending through the mingled lineage of Ephraim, though true, is thus provisional.
Whether Latter-Day Saints are of the House of Israel ultimately depends on whether they fulfill their prophetic mission"

Avraham Gileadi
"As we learn how the scriptures define Gentiles,
we also understand what they teach about the role of Latter-day Saints.
The popular notion of Gentiles as non-Mormons appears inadequate when we come to realize
the message of The Book of Mormon."

"So long as we think of ourselves as the "good guys" in whatever scriptural scenario we are studying,
for example, we will learn very little from the scriptures.
We will not be able to apply their historical lessons to ourselves.
Most important, we will end up with only a hypothetical role or mission to fulfill,
one lacking a correct idea of self-identity and purpose.
The scriptures speak of The House of Israel as well as the Gentiles in terms of both good and evil.
At the root of the question of identities, therefore, is not who is good and who is bad,
but rather what mission God asks us to fulfill."

(please read this)
Avraham Gileadi
"Serving as Kings and Queens of the Gentiles"
http://www.josephandjudah.com/2016/05/s ... tiles.html

this is just a small part taken from his talk.

"There comes a time in life when you have to take stock and ask yourself whether you are, in fact, doing what you came to do in this world. We read scriptures that speak of heroes and heroines who valiantly served God and accomplished miracles that saved much of humanity. Maybe they didn't do so at first, but when they awoke to a sense of who they were, they set about serving God to their utmost without the need to look back. We too seldom come to an awakening of who we are all at once because we often don't see ourselves as anyone special, and because heaven withholds its gifts from us until we finally conform our lives to God's will. But because we have implanted in us his divine gene, we are no less capable of being recreated into something like a god-magnificent and powerful-able to transform the world as did those illustrious forebears.
Thus it is with the end-time kings and queens of the Gentiles whom Isaiah predicts are to restore the house of Israel:

"I will lift up my hand to the Gentiles, raise my ensign to the peoples, and they will bring your sons in their bosoms and carry your daughters on their shoulders. Kings will be your foster fathers and queens your nursing mothers" (Isaiah 49:22-23). It is as if this passage from Isaiah acts as a lifeline that Book of Mormon prophets hold on to, knowing that God made provision from the beginning for those end-time Gentile kings and queens to save their descendants from their lost and fallen and scattered state.
For that reason, Book of Mormon prophets refer back to this passage again and again, as if to inspire those same kings and queens of the Gentiles who read the Book of Mormon to wake up and perform their saving role to the house of Israel. That role, however, has little to do with non-Israelites but everything to do with Israel's birthright tribe of Ephraim whose ancestors assimilated into the Gentiles and became "identified with the Gentiles" (Doctrine & Covenants 109:60).

* (list of things members have done, and continue to do )
"Let us additionally assume that we aren't among those same Gentiles "in Zion" (2 Nephi 28:21, 24, 32) who "are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men" (2 Nephi 28:14)-those who don't search the scriptures and repent of their error (cf. Jacob 7:23; Alma 14:1; 17:2 33:2; 3 Nephi 10:14) but who are "at ease in Zion" and assume "all is well" (2 Nephi 28:24-25). That we aren't among those who "hearken unto the precepts of men," who disallow "the power of God" in their lives and void "the gift of the Holy Ghost" (2 Nephi 28:26)-those who say, "We have received, and we need no more" (2 Nephi 28:27, 29), who get "angry" when confronted with "the truth of God" found in the scriptures when it conflicts with their "precepts of men" (2 Nephi 28:28, 31). That we aren't among those who end up denying the Lord God when his "arm"-his servant in the Book of Isaiah-"is lengthened out all the day long" (2 Nephi 28:32)."


also you may want to consider these quotes.

"If we are to accept the blessings pronounced to the “Gentiles” in the Book of Mormon,
should we not seriously consider the warnings to the “Gentiles”
that are pronounced throughout the Book of Mormon? "

"Mormons today dwindle in unbelief.
There is a pervasive belief among us that we are God's chosen people
and therefore unavoidably in the right way.
So when we read the BOM giving desperate warnings about the churches in the last days,
we automatically assume those warnings apply to all churches but our own.
We tend to apply the most important lessons of the book to everyone else but ourselves.
Its a great example of standing on the rameumptom.
Read Alma Chapter 31. Its a story of who?... That's right... The Mormons.

You would think that it would be odd to the Mormons that so much effort was wasted
warning those who will never read the book."

Mamabear
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3351

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Mamabear »

SPIRIT wrote: July 28th, 2022, 1:00 pm
Sarah wrote: July 28th, 2022, 8:13 am
SPIRIT wrote: July 28th, 2022, 12:48 am
Sarah wrote: July 26th, 2022, 12:35 pm Someone has to have the Keys of the Kingdom, and the authority to organize the Lord's church and administer the ordinances etc. We are not all meant to be individual islands, but must be organized.
I guess you haven't read the Book of Mormon very much,
to find out what happened to a people - and will happen to us - for not heeding their warnings.
A people who once had the gospel and lost it -
You're like them - in your pride - saying
" we are the one and only rue church - we have the one and only true gospel and will never lose it"
famous last words.

they (The House of Israel) actually lost it to us - and now, we (the Gentiles) will lose it back to them;
but of course you wouldn't know that, because you care more about blindly following church leaders
and what they say, than you do in reading and believing in the scriptures and what they say.


"Two consecutive histories of fallen peoples on this land fore-warn
the Gentiles of their own imminent fate. (Eth. 2:11; 8:21-26).
Mormon has vividly described the destruction of the Nephites. (Morm. 6:1-22).
Now Moroni recounts the destruction of the Jaredites in order to persuade
the Gentiles to repent."
(Eth. 2:11; 8:23).
Yes, the Gentiles will go down, but I am no longer a gentile, but am part of covenant Israel, because I keep my covenants that were performed under Priesthood authority. I am one of the ones spoken of in the BofM that has believed and is numbered among the house of Israel.
sorry, but you're a Gentile.
And will stay a Gentile until you perform your saving mission towards The House of Israel.
AND ONLY THEN - will you be numbered among The House of Israel.

Our only hope is to be numbered with The House of Israel - the Lord's covenant people.
" The Lord has ordained no salvation or plan of salvation outside of the covenant with His people Israel"

"The repentant Gentiles are numbered with The House of Israel ONLY after they
perform their saving mission toward them.
The claim that Latter-Day Saints are of the House of Israel, descending through the mingled lineage of Ephraim, though true, is thus provisional.
Whether Latter-Day Saints are of the House of Israel ultimately depends on whether they fulfill their prophetic mission"

Avraham Gileadi
"As we learn how the scriptures define Gentiles,
we also understand what they teach about the role of Latter-day Saints.
The popular notion of Gentiles as non-Mormons appears inadequate when we come to realize
the message of The Book of Mormon."

"So long as we think of ourselves as the "good guys" in whatever scriptural scenario we are studying,
for example, we will learn very little from the scriptures.
We will not be able to apply their historical lessons to ourselves.
Most important, we will end up with only a hypothetical role or mission to fulfill,
one lacking a correct idea of self-identity and purpose.
The scriptures speak of The House of Israel as well as the Gentiles in terms of both good and evil.
At the root of the question of identities, therefore, is not who is good and who is bad,
but rather what mission God asks us to fulfill."

(please read this)
Avraham Gileadi
"Serving as Kings and Queens of the Gentiles"
http://www.josephandjudah.com/2016/05/s ... tiles.html

this is just a small part taken from his talk.

"There comes a time in life when you have to take stock and ask yourself whether you are, in fact, doing what you came to do in this world. We read scriptures that speak of heroes and heroines who valiantly served God and accomplished miracles that saved much of humanity. Maybe they didn't do so at first, but when they awoke to a sense of who they were, they set about serving God to their utmost without the need to look back. We too seldom come to an awakening of who we are all at once because we often don't see ourselves as anyone special, and because heaven withholds its gifts from us until we finally conform our lives to God's will. But because we have implanted in us his divine gene, we are no less capable of being recreated into something like a god-magnificent and powerful-able to transform the world as did those illustrious forebears.
Thus it is with the end-time kings and queens of the Gentiles whom Isaiah predicts are to restore the house of Israel:

"I will lift up my hand to the Gentiles, raise my ensign to the peoples, and they will bring your sons in their bosoms and carry your daughters on their shoulders. Kings will be your foster fathers and queens your nursing mothers" (Isaiah 49:22-23). It is as if this passage from Isaiah acts as a lifeline that Book of Mormon prophets hold on to, knowing that God made provision from the beginning for those end-time Gentile kings and queens to save their descendants from their lost and fallen and scattered state.
For that reason, Book of Mormon prophets refer back to this passage again and again, as if to inspire those same kings and queens of the Gentiles who read the Book of Mormon to wake up and perform their saving role to the house of Israel. That role, however, has little to do with non-Israelites but everything to do with Israel's birthright tribe of Ephraim whose ancestors assimilated into the Gentiles and became "identified with the Gentiles" (Doctrine & Covenants 109:60).

* (list of things members have done, and continue to do )
"Let us additionally assume that we aren't among those same Gentiles "in Zion" (2 Nephi 28:21, 24, 32) who "are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men" (2 Nephi 28:14)-those who don't search the scriptures and repent of their error (cf. Jacob 7:23; Alma 14:1; 17:2 33:2; 3 Nephi 10:14) but who are "at ease in Zion" and assume "all is well" (2 Nephi 28:24-25). That we aren't among those who "hearken unto the precepts of men," who disallow "the power of God" in their lives and void "the gift of the Holy Ghost" (2 Nephi 28:26)-those who say, "We have received, and we need no more" (2 Nephi 28:27, 29), who get "angry" when confronted with "the truth of God" found in the scriptures when it conflicts with their "precepts of men" (2 Nephi 28:28, 31). That we aren't among those who end up denying the Lord God when his "arm"-his servant in the Book of Isaiah-"is lengthened out all the day long" (2 Nephi 28:32)."


also you may want to consider these quotes.

"If we are to accept the blessings pronounced to the “Gentiles” in the Book of Mormon,
should we not seriously consider the warnings to the “Gentiles”
that are pronounced throughout the Book of Mormon? "

"Mormons today dwindle in unbelief.
There is a pervasive belief among us that we are God's chosen people
and therefore unavoidably in the right way.
So when we read the BOM giving desperate warnings about the churches in the last days,
we automatically assume those warnings apply to all churches but our own.
We tend to apply the most important lessons of the book to everyone else but ourselves.
Its a great example of standing on the rameumptom.
Read Alma Chapter 31. Its a story of who?... That's right... The Mormons.

You would think that it would be odd to the Mormons that so much effort was wasted
warning those who will never read the book."
I like some of what Gileadi teaches, however I disagree with him on some things.
There are many of the house of Israel who have died and not performed saving missions in the latter days. However, they will contribute in their resurrected state. The house of Israel is large and encompasses the Lord’s people through all generations. Israel is comprised of individuals who came to the Lord, were reborn and endured.
In Ezekiel 37, we read that the Lord directs Ezekiel to resurrect the bones of the whole house of Israel.

“Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.” V 9-14

I think from these verses that the house of Israel will be resurrected to help assist in the work of gathering the rest of Israel who lives on the earth.
The church has it backwards, we can’t gather Israel on both sides of the veil….But they will help gather us.

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Amonhi »

Sarah wrote: July 28th, 2022, 9:32 am
Amonhi wrote: July 27th, 2022, 5:45 pm
Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 2:13 pm
Luke wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:58 pm

He absolutely taught something more (which I wholeheartedly believe in), but he never said it was part of “the Doctrine of Christ” or first principles.
I agree with that. But the LDS church also teaches these basics as the doctrine of Christ and as the first principles of the gospel.
The term "first principles of the Gospel" means that there are more principles, like "the Second principles of the Gospel". If the church today teaches that these are only the first doctrines of Christ and there are more doctrines of Christ which make up his gospel, then they have "added to" the list which Christ said could not be added to or taken away from. This means that what the church teaches today and calls the doctrine of Christ "comes of evil and opens the gates of hell".

BTW, The articles of faith the church teaches today were changed from the original articles of faith written by Joseph Smith. Here are the original articles of faith 3 and 4 as given by Joseph Smith.
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that these ordinances are: 1st [first], Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; 2d [second], Repentance; 3d [third], Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; 4th [fourth], Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. - Joseph Smith
Notice that he did not add to the doctrine of Christ and create a new gospel which is taught today in the LDS Church.

Peace,
Amonhi
In the third article of faith JS speaks of being saved by obeying the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Christ. And the ordinances (principles) of the gospel to get you saved are indeed these first four things.
Yes, that is correct. These four things make up the entire gospel of Jesus Christ and they the the only principles and ordinances required for "Salvation". This is what is taught in the scriptures and by Joseph Smith. It is not what is taught in the LDS Church today.

What is currently being pointed out is that the Church today teaches that these 4 things are only the FIRST principles and ordinances of the Gospel and that there is a long list of other principles and ordinances that are part of the doctrine and gospel of Jesus Christ required for salvation.

The church today adds to this short list of doctrines approved by Christ and declares the extended list to be part of his doctrine and gospel. For example, in the principles of the Gospel on the church website, we read,
The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “The first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Articles of Faith 1:4). In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us TO BE EXALTED in the celestial kingdom. - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... l?lang=eng
First off, notice the someone, (Probably Brigham Young since he did this a lot), changed the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith after he died so that the entire church has been misquoting him for years. This is not what he said. It's close to what he said, but the difference between what he said and what we claim he said is major.

Secondly, It lumps the "saving principles and ordinances" with the "exalting principles and ordinances" along with all the doctrines, laws and covenants of the church and says they are all part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. (Flat wrong, comes of evil and opens the gates of hell.)

I think that you can ask any active member of the church to list all of the doctrines, principles and ordinances that they have been taught are part of the doctrine of Christ or the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the great majority of them will include things like tithing, the word of wisdom, priesthood blessings, Temple endowments and sealings and Eternal families, and a long list of things that have nothing to do with the doctrines or Gospel of Jesus Christ.

When I search the churches website for the doctrines of Christ and his gospel I find all sorts of things taught as Christ's doctrine and his Gospel which are wrong.

HERE - President Harold B. Lee is quoted in a modern manual saying that the First principles of the Gospel are faith, repentance, baptism and the Holy Ghost, but the gospel also includes "all of the laws of the Lord" including "to talk with God in prayer", "the Word of Wisdom", "keep the Sabbath day holy", "the law of fasting", "the law of chastity".

HERE - Is a link to the new Testament Seminary Teachers manual where they list various "Basic Doctrines" of the church including Restoration, The Fall, The creation, Marriage and Family, Commandments, and lots of other things. It specifically says, "The Basic Doctrines should be highlighted in both seminary and institute classes. Teachers are to help students identify, understand, believe, explain, and apply these doctrines of the gospel." and Other saving ordinances include ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing (see D&C 131:1–4).

We know from Several sources that the Book of Mormon contains "the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ".
Doctrine and Covenants 20:9
8 And gave him (Joseph Smith) power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;
9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;
and...
JSH 1
34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;
There should be no question that the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is contained in the Book of Mormon, and that it was taught by Jesus Christ specifically.

Well, there are a lot of people trying to explain how it is that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the Gospel and doesn't talk about all the doctrines taught as part of the gospel in the church today.
HERE - Is an article published by the church titled, "Why do we say that the Book of Mormon contains “the fulness of the gospel” (D&C 20:9) when it doesn’t contain some of the basic teachings of the Church? Why doesn’t it include such doctrines as the three degrees of glory, marriage for eternity, premortal existence of spirits, and baptism for the dead?" The author fumbles through quoting scripture after scripture which teaches the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and then tries to explain, that the writers of the Book of Mormon "also understood that their writings would come forth in the last days during a period of unbelief, when the true Church had been taken from the earth. (See 2 Ne. 25:3–23; 2 Ne. 26:16–24; Jacob 4:4, 13–16; Morm. 8:25–35; Moro. 10:24–34.) Thus, their stated purpose was to help lead us to Christ and to the true Church, rather than to provide all the teachings and ordinances of the gospel that we might receive after becoming members of the Church. In other words, the author concludes that the Book of Mormon doesn't contain in it the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but the means to find the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is not contained in the Book of Mormon.

"The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." - LDS Church

The doctrines of Christ which make up the Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by the Church today is "In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us TO BE EXALTED in the celestial kingdom."
  • The First principles and ordinances of the Gospel are:
    • Faith
    • Repentance
    • Baptism
    • The Holy Ghost
  • Other Principles and Ordinances of the Gospel include
    • Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood
    • Endowment
    • Temple sealing
    • Law of Chastity
    • Law of the Sabbath
    • Law of Tithing
    • Word of Wisdom
    • Pre-mortal life
    • Follow the Prophet
    • Etc., Etc., Etc. = A very long list of doctrines and ordinances
Jesus and his prophets said about 8 times in scriptures that his doctrine and gospel are only:
  • Faith
  • Repentance
  • Baptism
  • The Holy Ghost
After teaching this 3 times, they explained that these are the only doctrines accepted by the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost and that to add more or less than these comes of evil and opens the gates of hell to receive such.

Jesus also said that a church is only his church if it is called by his name AND it teaches his gospel without taking away or adding to it.

The LDS Church is called after the name of Christ, but it adds doctrine and ordinances to his Gospel so that it is no longer recognized as his Gospel.

Therefore, the church today is not his church, which is why very, very few members of the LSD church can correctly define the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, even though it is taught repeatedly in the scriptures.

When it was establish by Joseph Smith, the doctrine of the church matched the doctrine of Christ. After Joseph Smith died, Brigham Young and others changed church history, Joseph Smith's writings and journals and other historical documents to say entirely different things, including the Articles of Faith. There are several examples of such changes documented in the thread, "More changes to Church History Confirmed...

Peace,
Amonhi

User avatar
Shawn Henry
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4507

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Shawn Henry »

Luke wrote: March 25th, 2020, 11:57 am John the Revelator and the Davidic Servant (the Holy Ghost) are the two witnesses.
Are you using this 'two witnesses' reference to also be the two witnesses in Revelation that prophecy for 3 1/2 years and then are killed?

User avatar
Luke
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10785
Location: England

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Luke »

Shawn Henry wrote: July 28th, 2022, 4:03 pm
Luke wrote: March 25th, 2020, 11:57 am John the Revelator and the Davidic Servant (the Holy Ghost) are the two witnesses.
Are you using this 'two witnesses' reference to also be the two witnesses in Revelation that prophecy for 3 1/2 years and then are killed?
Whatever I wrote here then I’m not going to claim as fact now.

Might be true but I doubt it.

I lean towards it being Enoch and Elijah.

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Artaxerxes »

Amonhi wrote: July 28th, 2022, 3:25 pm
Sarah wrote: July 28th, 2022, 9:32 am
Amonhi wrote: July 27th, 2022, 5:45 pm
Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 2:13 pm

I agree with that. But the LDS church also teaches these basics as the doctrine of Christ and as the first principles of the gospel.
The term "first principles of the Gospel" means that there are more principles, like "the Second principles of the Gospel". If the church today teaches that these are only the first doctrines of Christ and there are more doctrines of Christ which make up his gospel, then they have "added to" the list which Christ said could not be added to or taken away from. This means that what the church teaches today and calls the doctrine of Christ "comes of evil and opens the gates of hell".

BTW, The articles of faith the church teaches today were changed from the original articles of faith written by Joseph Smith. Here are the original articles of faith 3 and 4 as given by Joseph Smith.
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that these ordinances are: 1st [first], Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; 2d [second], Repentance; 3d [third], Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; 4th [fourth], Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. - Joseph Smith
Notice that he did not add to the doctrine of Christ and create a new gospel which is taught today in the LDS Church.

Peace,
Amonhi
In the third article of faith JS speaks of being saved by obeying the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Christ. And the ordinances (principles) of the gospel to get you saved are indeed these first four things.
Yes, that is correct. These four things make up the entire gospel of Jesus Christ and they the the only principles and ordinances required for "Salvation". This is what is taught in the scriptures and by Joseph Smith. It is not what is taught in the LDS Church today.

What is currently being pointed out is that the Church today teaches that these 4 things are only the FIRST principles and ordinances of the Gospel and that there is a long list of other principles and ordinances that are part of the doctrine and gospel of Jesus Christ required for salvation.

The church today adds to this short list of doctrines approved by Christ and declares the extended list to be part of his doctrine and gospel. For example, in the principles of the Gospel on the church website, we read,
The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “The first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Articles of Faith 1:4). In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us TO BE EXALTED in the celestial kingdom. - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... l?lang=eng
First off, notice the someone, (Probably Brigham Young since he did this a lot), changed the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith after he died so that the entire church has been misquoting him for years. This is not what he said. It's close to what he said, but the difference between what he said and what we claim he said is major.

Secondly, It lumps the "saving principles and ordinances" with the "exalting principles and ordinances" along with all the doctrines, laws and covenants of the church and says they are all part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. (Flat wrong, comes of evil and opens the gates of hell.)

I think that you can ask any active member of the church to list all of the doctrines, principles and ordinances that they have been taught are part of the doctrine of Christ or the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the great majority of them will include things like tithing, the word of wisdom, priesthood blessings, Temple endowments and sealings and Eternal families, and a long list of things that have nothing to do with the doctrines or Gospel of Jesus Christ.

When I search the churches website for the doctrines of Christ and his gospel I find all sorts of things taught as Christ's doctrine and his Gospel which are wrong.

HERE - President Harold B. Lee is quoted in a modern manual saying that the First principles of the Gospel are faith, repentance, baptism and the Holy Ghost, but the gospel also includes "all of the laws of the Lord" including "to talk with God in prayer", "the Word of Wisdom", "keep the Sabbath day holy", "the law of fasting", "the law of chastity".

HERE - Is a link to the new Testament Seminary Teachers manual where they list various "Basic Doctrines" of the church including Restoration, The Fall, The creation, Marriage and Family, Commandments, and lots of other things. It specifically says, "The Basic Doctrines should be highlighted in both seminary and institute classes. Teachers are to help students identify, understand, believe, explain, and apply these doctrines of the gospel." and Other saving ordinances include ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing (see D&C 131:1–4).

We know from Several sources that the Book of Mormon contains "the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ".
Doctrine and Covenants 20:9
8 And gave him (Joseph Smith) power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;
9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;
and...
JSH 1
34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;
There should be no question that the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is contained in the Book of Mormon, and that it was taught by Jesus Christ specifically.

Well, there are a lot of people trying to explain how it is that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the Gospel and doesn't talk about all the doctrines taught as part of the gospel in the church today.
HERE - Is an article published by the church titled, "Why do we say that the Book of Mormon contains “the fulness of the gospel” (D&C 20:9) when it doesn’t contain some of the basic teachings of the Church? Why doesn’t it include such doctrines as the three degrees of glory, marriage for eternity, premortal existence of spirits, and baptism for the dead?" The author fumbles through quoting scripture after scripture which teaches the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and then tries to explain, that the writers of the Book of Mormon "also understood that their writings would come forth in the last days during a period of unbelief, when the true Church had been taken from the earth. (See 2 Ne. 25:3–23; 2 Ne. 26:16–24; Jacob 4:4, 13–16; Morm. 8:25–35; Moro. 10:24–34.) Thus, their stated purpose was to help lead us to Christ and to the true Church, rather than to provide all the teachings and ordinances of the gospel that we might receive after becoming members of the Church. In other words, the author concludes that the Book of Mormon doesn't contain in it the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but the means to find the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is not contained in the Book of Mormon.

"The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." - LDS Church

The doctrines of Christ which make up the Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by the Church today is "In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us TO BE EXALTED in the celestial kingdom."
  • The First principles and ordinances of the Gospel are:
    • Faith
    • Repentance
    • Baptism
    • The Holy Ghost
  • Other Principles and Ordinances of the Gospel include
    • Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood
    • Endowment
    • Temple sealing
    • Law of Chastity
    • Law of the Sabbath
    • Law of Tithing
    • Word of Wisdom
    • Pre-mortal life
    • Follow the Prophet
    • Etc., Etc., Etc. = A very long list of doctrines and ordinances
Jesus and his prophets said about 8 times in scriptures that his doctrine and gospel are only:
  • Faith
  • Repentance
  • Baptism
  • The Holy Ghost
After teaching this 3 times, they explained that these are the only doctrines accepted by the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost and that to add more or less than these comes of evil and opens the gates of hell to receive such.

Jesus also said that a church is only his church if it is called by his name AND it teaches his gospel without taking away or adding to it.

The LDS Church is called after the name of Christ, but it adds doctrine and ordinances to his Gospel so that it is no longer recognized as his Gospel.

Therefore, the church today is not his church, which is why very, very few members of the LSD church can correctly define the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, even though it is taught repeatedly in the scriptures.

When it was establish by Joseph Smith, the doctrine of the church matched the doctrine of Christ. After Joseph Smith died, Brigham Young and others changed church history, Joseph Smith's writings and journals and other historical documents to say entirely different things, including the Articles of Faith. There are several examples of such changes documented in the thread, "More changes to Church History Confirmed...

Peace,
Amonhi
Yeah, can you imagine Joseph calling them the first principles? Can you imagine he saying something like:

"the first principles of the gospel, which are repentance, and baptism for the remission of sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands."
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ber-1835/2

"The first principles of the gospel as I believe. first Faith. Repentance. Baptism for the remission of sins. with the promise of the Holy Ghost."
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ource-note

I mean, can you even imagine?

blitzinstripes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2294

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by blitzinstripes »

SPIRIT wrote: July 28th, 2022, 1:00 pm
Sarah wrote: July 28th, 2022, 8:13 am
SPIRIT wrote: July 28th, 2022, 12:48 am
Sarah wrote: July 26th, 2022, 12:35 pm Someone has to have the Keys of the Kingdom, and the authority to organize the Lord's church and administer the ordinances etc. We are not all meant to be individual islands, but must be organized.
I guess you haven't read the Book of Mormon very much,
to find out what happened to a people - and will happen to us - for not heeding their warnings.
A people who once had the gospel and lost it -
You're like them - in your pride - saying
" we are the one and only rue church - we have the one and only true gospel and will never lose it"
famous last words.

they (The House of Israel) actually lost it to us - and now, we (the Gentiles) will lose it back to them;
but of course you wouldn't know that, because you care more about blindly following church leaders
and what they say, than you do in reading and believing in the scriptures and what they say.


"Two consecutive histories of fallen peoples on this land fore-warn
the Gentiles of their own imminent fate. (Eth. 2:11; 8:21-26).
Mormon has vividly described the destruction of the Nephites. (Morm. 6:1-22).
Now Moroni recounts the destruction of the Jaredites in order to persuade
the Gentiles to repent."
(Eth. 2:11; 8:23).
Yes, the Gentiles will go down, but I am no longer a gentile, but am part of covenant Israel, because I keep my covenants that were performed under Priesthood authority. I am one of the ones spoken of in the BofM that has believed and is numbered among the house of Israel.
sorry, but you're a Gentile.
And will stay a Gentile until you perform your saving mission towards The House of Israel.
AND ONLY THEN - will you be numbered among The House of Israel.

Our only hope is to be numbered with The House of Israel - the Lord's covenant people.
" The Lord has ordained no salvation or plan of salvation outside of the covenant with His people Israel"

"The repentant Gentiles are numbered with The House of Israel ONLY after they
perform their saving mission toward them.
The claim that Latter-Day Saints are of the House of Israel, descending through the mingled lineage of Ephraim, though true, is thus provisional.
Whether Latter-Day Saints are of the House of Israel ultimately depends on whether they fulfill their prophetic mission"

Avraham Gileadi
"As we learn how the scriptures define Gentiles,
we also understand what they teach about the role of Latter-day Saints.
The popular notion of Gentiles as non-Mormons appears inadequate when we come to realize
the message of The Book of Mormon."

"So long as we think of ourselves as the "good guys" in whatever scriptural scenario we are studying,
for example, we will learn very little from the scriptures.
We will not be able to apply their historical lessons to ourselves.
Most important, we will end up with only a hypothetical role or mission to fulfill,
one lacking a correct idea of self-identity and purpose.
The scriptures speak of The House of Israel as well as the Gentiles in terms of both good and evil.
At the root of the question of identities, therefore, is not who is good and who is bad,
but rather what mission God asks us to fulfill."

(please read this)
Avraham Gileadi
"Serving as Kings and Queens of the Gentiles"
http://www.josephandjudah.com/2016/05/s ... tiles.html

this is just a small part taken from his talk.

"There comes a time in life when you have to take stock and ask yourself whether you are, in fact, doing what you came to do in this world. We read scriptures that speak of heroes and heroines who valiantly served God and accomplished miracles that saved much of humanity. Maybe they didn't do so at first, but when they awoke to a sense of who they were, they set about serving God to their utmost without the need to look back. We too seldom come to an awakening of who we are all at once because we often don't see ourselves as anyone special, and because heaven withholds its gifts from us until we finally conform our lives to God's will. But because we have implanted in us his divine gene, we are no less capable of being recreated into something like a god-magnificent and powerful-able to transform the world as did those illustrious forebears.
Thus it is with the end-time kings and queens of the Gentiles whom Isaiah predicts are to restore the house of Israel:

"I will lift up my hand to the Gentiles, raise my ensign to the peoples, and they will bring your sons in their bosoms and carry your daughters on their shoulders. Kings will be your foster fathers and queens your nursing mothers" (Isaiah 49:22-23). It is as if this passage from Isaiah acts as a lifeline that Book of Mormon prophets hold on to, knowing that God made provision from the beginning for those end-time Gentile kings and queens to save their descendants from their lost and fallen and scattered state.
For that reason, Book of Mormon prophets refer back to this passage again and again, as if to inspire those same kings and queens of the Gentiles who read the Book of Mormon to wake up and perform their saving role to the house of Israel. That role, however, has little to do with non-Israelites but everything to do with Israel's birthright tribe of Ephraim whose ancestors assimilated into the Gentiles and became "identified with the Gentiles" (Doctrine & Covenants 109:60).

* (list of things members have done, and continue to do )
"Let us additionally assume that we aren't among those same Gentiles "in Zion" (2 Nephi 28:21, 24, 32) who "are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men" (2 Nephi 28:14)-those who don't search the scriptures and repent of their error (cf. Jacob 7:23; Alma 14:1; 17:2 33:2; 3 Nephi 10:14) but who are "at ease in Zion" and assume "all is well" (2 Nephi 28:24-25). That we aren't among those who "hearken unto the precepts of men," who disallow "the power of God" in their lives and void "the gift of the Holy Ghost" (2 Nephi 28:26)-those who say, "We have received, and we need no more" (2 Nephi 28:27, 29), who get "angry" when confronted with "the truth of God" found in the scriptures when it conflicts with their "precepts of men" (2 Nephi 28:28, 31). That we aren't among those who end up denying the Lord God when his "arm"-his servant in the Book of Isaiah-"is lengthened out all the day long" (2 Nephi 28:32)."


also you may want to consider these quotes.

"If we are to accept the blessings pronounced to the “Gentiles” in the Book of Mormon,
should we not seriously consider the warnings to the “Gentiles”
that are pronounced throughout the Book of Mormon? "

"Mormons today dwindle in unbelief.
There is a pervasive belief among us that we are God's chosen people
and therefore unavoidably in the right way.
So when we read the BOM giving desperate warnings about the churches in the last days,
we automatically assume those warnings apply to all churches but our own.
We tend to apply the most important lessons of the book to everyone else but ourselves.
Its a great example of standing on the rameumptom.
Read Alma Chapter 31. Its a story of who?... That's right... The Mormons.

You would think that it would be odd to the Mormons that so much effort was wasted
warning those who will never read the book."
Awesome post, brother. Wish I could give it a hundred thumbs up!

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6702

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Sarah »

SPIRIT wrote: July 28th, 2022, 1:00 pm
Sarah wrote: July 28th, 2022, 8:13 am
SPIRIT wrote: July 28th, 2022, 12:48 am
Sarah wrote: July 26th, 2022, 12:35 pm Someone has to have the Keys of the Kingdom, and the authority to organize the Lord's church and administer the ordinances etc. We are not all meant to be individual islands, but must be organized.
I guess you haven't read the Book of Mormon very much,
to find out what happened to a people - and will happen to us - for not heeding their warnings.
A people who once had the gospel and lost it -
You're like them - in your pride - saying
" we are the one and only rue church - we have the one and only true gospel and will never lose it"
famous last words.

they (The House of Israel) actually lost it to us - and now, we (the Gentiles) will lose it back to them;
but of course you wouldn't know that, because you care more about blindly following church leaders
and what they say, than you do in reading and believing in the scriptures and what they say.


"Two consecutive histories of fallen peoples on this land fore-warn
the Gentiles of their own imminent fate. (Eth. 2:11; 8:21-26).
Mormon has vividly described the destruction of the Nephites. (Morm. 6:1-22).
Now Moroni recounts the destruction of the Jaredites in order to persuade
the Gentiles to repent."
(Eth. 2:11; 8:23).
Yes, the Gentiles will go down, but I am no longer a gentile, but am part of covenant Israel, because I keep my covenants that were performed under Priesthood authority. I am one of the ones spoken of in the BofM that has believed and is numbered among the house of Israel.
sorry, but you're a Gentile.
And will stay a Gentile until you perform your saving mission towards The House of Israel.
AND ONLY THEN - will you be numbered among The House of Israel.

Our only hope is to be numbered with The House of Israel - the Lord's covenant people.
" The Lord has ordained no salvation or plan of salvation outside of the covenant with His people Israel"

"The repentant Gentiles are numbered with The House of Israel ONLY after they
perform their saving mission toward them.
The claim that Latter-Day Saints are of the House of Israel, descending through the mingled lineage of Ephraim, though true, is thus provisional.
Whether Latter-Day Saints are of the House of Israel ultimately depends on whether they fulfill their prophetic mission"

Avraham Gileadi
"As we learn how the scriptures define Gentiles,
we also understand what they teach about the role of Latter-day Saints.
The popular notion of Gentiles as non-Mormons appears inadequate when we come to realize
the message of The Book of Mormon."

"So long as we think of ourselves as the "good guys" in whatever scriptural scenario we are studying,
for example, we will learn very little from the scriptures.
We will not be able to apply their historical lessons to ourselves.
Most important, we will end up with only a hypothetical role or mission to fulfill,
one lacking a correct idea of self-identity and purpose.
The scriptures speak of The House of Israel as well as the Gentiles in terms of both good and evil.
At the root of the question of identities, therefore, is not who is good and who is bad,
but rather what mission God asks us to fulfill."

(please read this)
Avraham Gileadi
"Serving as Kings and Queens of the Gentiles"
http://www.josephandjudah.com/2016/05/s ... tiles.html

this is just a small part taken from his talk.

"There comes a time in life when you have to take stock and ask yourself whether you are, in fact, doing what you came to do in this world. We read scriptures that speak of heroes and heroines who valiantly served God and accomplished miracles that saved much of humanity. Maybe they didn't do so at first, but when they awoke to a sense of who they were, they set about serving God to their utmost without the need to look back. We too seldom come to an awakening of who we are all at once because we often don't see ourselves as anyone special, and because heaven withholds its gifts from us until we finally conform our lives to God's will. But because we have implanted in us his divine gene, we are no less capable of being recreated into something like a god-magnificent and powerful-able to transform the world as did those illustrious forebears.
Thus it is with the end-time kings and queens of the Gentiles whom Isaiah predicts are to restore the house of Israel:

"I will lift up my hand to the Gentiles, raise my ensign to the peoples, and they will bring your sons in their bosoms and carry your daughters on their shoulders. Kings will be your foster fathers and queens your nursing mothers" (Isaiah 49:22-23). It is as if this passage from Isaiah acts as a lifeline that Book of Mormon prophets hold on to, knowing that God made provision from the beginning for those end-time Gentile kings and queens to save their descendants from their lost and fallen and scattered state.
For that reason, Book of Mormon prophets refer back to this passage again and again, as if to inspire those same kings and queens of the Gentiles who read the Book of Mormon to wake up and perform their saving role to the house of Israel. That role, however, has little to do with non-Israelites but everything to do with Israel's birthright tribe of Ephraim whose ancestors assimilated into the Gentiles and became "identified with the Gentiles" (Doctrine & Covenants 109:60).

* (list of things members have done, and continue to do )
"Let us additionally assume that we aren't among those same Gentiles "in Zion" (2 Nephi 28:21, 24, 32) who "are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men" (2 Nephi 28:14)-those who don't search the scriptures and repent of their error (cf. Jacob 7:23; Alma 14:1; 17:2 33:2; 3 Nephi 10:14) but who are "at ease in Zion" and assume "all is well" (2 Nephi 28:24-25). That we aren't among those who "hearken unto the precepts of men," who disallow "the power of God" in their lives and void "the gift of the Holy Ghost" (2 Nephi 28:26)-those who say, "We have received, and we need no more" (2 Nephi 28:27, 29), who get "angry" when confronted with "the truth of God" found in the scriptures when it conflicts with their "precepts of men" (2 Nephi 28:28, 31). That we aren't among those who end up denying the Lord God when his "arm"-his servant in the Book of Isaiah-"is lengthened out all the day long" (2 Nephi 28:32)."


also you may want to consider these quotes.

"If we are to accept the blessings pronounced to the “Gentiles” in the Book of Mormon,
should we not seriously consider the warnings to the “Gentiles”
that are pronounced throughout the Book of Mormon? "

"Mormons today dwindle in unbelief.
There is a pervasive belief among us that we are God's chosen people
and therefore unavoidably in the right way.
So when we read the BOM giving desperate warnings about the churches in the last days,
we automatically assume those warnings apply to all churches but our own.
We tend to apply the most important lessons of the book to everyone else but ourselves.
Its a great example of standing on the rameumptom.
Read Alma Chapter 31. Its a story of who?... That's right... The Mormons.

You would think that it would be odd to the Mormons that so much effort was wasted
warning those who will never read the book."
I can't be a part of COVENANT Israel until I fulfill my mission to them? What is my mission? Have you fulfilled yours?

User avatar
cab
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2986
Location: ♫ I am a Mormon! ♫ And... dang it... a Mormon just believes! ♫

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by cab »

I miss Zathura.

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Amonhi »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 28th, 2022, 4:11 pm
Amonhi wrote: July 28th, 2022, 3:25 pm
Sarah wrote: July 28th, 2022, 9:32 am
Amonhi wrote: July 27th, 2022, 5:45 pm
The term "first principles of the Gospel" means that there are more principles, like "the Second principles of the Gospel". If the church today teaches that these are only the first doctrines of Christ and there are more doctrines of Christ which make up his gospel, then they have "added to" the list which Christ said could not be added to or taken away from. This means that what the church teaches today and calls the doctrine of Christ "comes of evil and opens the gates of hell".

BTW, The articles of faith the church teaches today were changed from the original articles of faith written by Joseph Smith. Here are the original articles of faith 3 and 4 as given by Joseph Smith.



Notice that he did not add to the doctrine of Christ and create a new gospel which is taught today in the LDS Church.

Peace,
Amonhi
In the third article of faith JS speaks of being saved by obeying the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Christ. And the ordinances (principles) of the gospel to get you saved are indeed these first four things.
Yes, that is correct. These four things make up the entire gospel of Jesus Christ and they the the only principles and ordinances required for "Salvation". This is what is taught in the scriptures and by Joseph Smith. It is not what is taught in the LDS Church today.

What is currently being pointed out is that the Church today teaches that these 4 things are only the FIRST principles and ordinances of the Gospel and that there is a long list of other principles and ordinances that are part of the doctrine and gospel of Jesus Christ required for salvation.

The church today adds to this short list of doctrines approved by Christ and declares the extended list to be part of his doctrine and gospel. For example, in the principles of the Gospel on the church website, we read,
The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “The first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Articles of Faith 1:4). In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us TO BE EXALTED in the celestial kingdom. - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... l?lang=eng
First off, notice the someone, (Probably Brigham Young since he did this a lot), changed the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith after he died so that the entire church has been misquoting him for years. This is not what he said. It's close to what he said, but the difference between what he said and what we claim he said is major.

Secondly, It lumps the "saving principles and ordinances" with the "exalting principles and ordinances" along with all the doctrines, laws and covenants of the church and says they are all part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. (Flat wrong, comes of evil and opens the gates of hell.)

I think that you can ask any active member of the church to list all of the doctrines, principles and ordinances that they have been taught are part of the doctrine of Christ or the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the great majority of them will include things like tithing, the word of wisdom, priesthood blessings, Temple endowments and sealings and Eternal families, and a long list of things that have nothing to do with the doctrines or Gospel of Jesus Christ.

When I search the churches website for the doctrines of Christ and his gospel I find all sorts of things taught as Christ's doctrine and his Gospel which are wrong.

HERE - President Harold B. Lee is quoted in a modern manual saying that the First principles of the Gospel are faith, repentance, baptism and the Holy Ghost, but the gospel also includes "all of the laws of the Lord" including "to talk with God in prayer", "the Word of Wisdom", "keep the Sabbath day holy", "the law of fasting", "the law of chastity".

HERE - Is a link to the new Testament Seminary Teachers manual where they list various "Basic Doctrines" of the church including Restoration, The Fall, The creation, Marriage and Family, Commandments, and lots of other things. It specifically says, "The Basic Doctrines should be highlighted in both seminary and institute classes. Teachers are to help students identify, understand, believe, explain, and apply these doctrines of the gospel." and Other saving ordinances include ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing (see D&C 131:1–4).

We know from Several sources that the Book of Mormon contains "the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ".
Doctrine and Covenants 20:9
8 And gave him (Joseph Smith) power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;
9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;
and...
JSH 1
34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;
There should be no question that the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is contained in the Book of Mormon, and that it was taught by Jesus Christ specifically.

Well, there are a lot of people trying to explain how it is that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the Gospel and doesn't talk about all the doctrines taught as part of the gospel in the church today.
HERE - Is an article published by the church titled, "Why do we say that the Book of Mormon contains “the fulness of the gospel” (D&C 20:9) when it doesn’t contain some of the basic teachings of the Church? Why doesn’t it include such doctrines as the three degrees of glory, marriage for eternity, premortal existence of spirits, and baptism for the dead?" The author fumbles through quoting scripture after scripture which teaches the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and then tries to explain, that the writers of the Book of Mormon "also understood that their writings would come forth in the last days during a period of unbelief, when the true Church had been taken from the earth. (See 2 Ne. 25:3–23; 2 Ne. 26:16–24; Jacob 4:4, 13–16; Morm. 8:25–35; Moro. 10:24–34.) Thus, their stated purpose was to help lead us to Christ and to the true Church, rather than to provide all the teachings and ordinances of the gospel that we might receive after becoming members of the Church. In other words, the author concludes that the Book of Mormon doesn't contain in it the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but the means to find the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is not contained in the Book of Mormon.

"The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." - LDS Church

The doctrines of Christ which make up the Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by the Church today is "In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us TO BE EXALTED in the celestial kingdom."
  • The First principles and ordinances of the Gospel are:
    • Faith
    • Repentance
    • Baptism
    • The Holy Ghost
  • Other Principles and Ordinances of the Gospel include
    • Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood
    • Endowment
    • Temple sealing
    • Law of Chastity
    • Law of the Sabbath
    • Law of Tithing
    • Word of Wisdom
    • Pre-mortal life
    • Follow the Prophet
    • Etc., Etc., Etc. = A very long list of doctrines and ordinances
Jesus and his prophets said about 8 times in scriptures that his doctrine and gospel are only:
  • Faith
  • Repentance
  • Baptism
  • The Holy Ghost
After teaching this 3 times, they explained that these are the only doctrines accepted by the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost and that to add more or less than these comes of evil and opens the gates of hell to receive such.

Jesus also said that a church is only his church if it is called by his name AND it teaches his gospel without taking away or adding to it.

The LDS Church is called after the name of Christ, but it adds doctrine and ordinances to his Gospel so that it is no longer recognized as his Gospel.

Therefore, the church today is not his church, which is why very, very few members of the LSD church can correctly define the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, even though it is taught repeatedly in the scriptures.

When it was establish by Joseph Smith, the doctrine of the church matched the doctrine of Christ. After Joseph Smith died, Brigham Young and others changed church history, Joseph Smith's writings and journals and other historical documents to say entirely different things, including the Articles of Faith. There are several examples of such changes documented in the thread, "More changes to Church History Confirmed...

Peace,
Amonhi
Yeah, can you imagine Joseph calling them the first principles? Can you imagine he saying something like:

"the first principles of the gospel, which are repentance, and baptism for the remission of sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands."
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ber-1835/2

"The first principles of the gospel as I believe. first Faith. Repentance. Baptism for the remission of sins. with the promise of the Holy Ghost."
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ource-note

I mean, can you even imagine?
Good find. Thank you. I'll be sure to remember that Joseph Smith was the source of that false doctrine which contradicts Nephi, and Jesus in the Book of Mormon and The Lord in the D&C. It isn't the first time he was clearly wrong, and it won't be the last.

Peace
Amonhi

Post Reply