Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
Post Reply
Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Amonhi »

Sarah wrote: July 28th, 2022, 9:36 am
Amonhi wrote: July 27th, 2022, 5:38 pm
Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:50 pm
Amonhi wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:42 pm
To teach and spread his doctrines which all together form his Gospel. Jesus said that for an organization to be HIS church, it must meet two requirements.
  • I must be called in his name.
  • It must teach his doctrine.

His doctrines which form the fulness of his Gospel which the church is required to be built on to be his church, are:
  • Faith in Christ
  • True Repentance = Broken heart and a contrite spirit
  • Baptism by Water
  • then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things that you should do.
That's it. Those are the only doctrines of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, and the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Adding to or taking away from that list and calling it the doctrines of Christ comes of evil, opens the gates of hell to receive people and makes the church not Christ's church.

This was plainly taught in 2 Nephi 31 which concludes by saying,


It was taught again by Jesus in 3 Nephi 11 after which he concluded by saying,


It has been taught and declared over and over again by the Lord and his prophets, for example:






That is why he organized the church. It was organized to spread his gospel which consists of all his doctrines and only his doctrines. Any organization that teaches more or less than this and calls it his doctrine is not his church and is not doing his work, but is opening the gates of hell to receive people.

Enduring to the end means following the Holy Ghost which tells us the words of Christ/God/the Iron rod which brings us to the end of the path which is eternal life.

Peace,
Amonhi
Joseph Smith taught more than those basics, so what do you think of the church he started?
If the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Doctrine & Covenants are correct and they agree in stating the mind and will of the Lord saying,
3 Nephi 11
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
...then Christ's true church will not teach more or less than what is spelled out in 2 Nephi 31, 3 Nephi 11 and call it "the doctrine of Christ". If they teach more or less than what Jesus clearly stated as the only and true doctrine of the Father, son and Holy Ghost, AND they call it Christ's doctrine, then it is not and cannot be Christ's church because Christ's church does not teach things that come of evil and opens the gates of hell to receive people.

This does not mean that Christ's church cannot teach other principles, truths, etc. As long as the church's only "Doctrine" is aligned with Christ's only "Doctrine", then it is Christ's church and they can teach anything they want because the Doctrine says that the Holy Ghost will teach you all things and show you all things that you should do. That means that in Christ's church people follow the Holy Ghost which is the mind and will of God and not men.

If the church teaches more or less than this and calls it "doctrine" then the church's doctrine is not aligned with Christ's doctrine/gospel and it is not and cannot be Christ's church. (see 3 Nephi 27:8) Christ's Church only teaches Christ's doctrine as "doctrine" and has no other "doctrines". These doctrines are the only doctrines of God the Father, the son and the Holy Ghost, they had better be the only doctrines of Christ's church. If it is good enough for them, then it is good enough for his church. It becomes the foundation on which everything the Church teaches and does is based.

If the church is built on that foundation, then it doesn't matter what else the church or any member of the church or any pretended Holy person in the church teaches because the true members of Christ's church will listen to and follow the Holy Ghost which tells them the philosophies of men from the scripture.

Joseph Smith restored the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as spelled out in the scriptures. Few members are taught this or understand it or follow it today. Today, leaders of the church all the way up to the President of the church teach things that they call the doctrines of Christ which are not. In doing so they open the gates of hell to receive people. The most common of these false doctrines taught in the church today is "Follow the Prophet" which is a doctrine that is in exact opposition to the doctrine of Christ which tells us to only follow the spirit. It is also in direct contradiction of D&C 121:41-42, D&C 50:19-20 and several other instructions by the Lord.

Also, you seem to thing that people can't follow the plan without a righteous church with righteous leadership. Our personal progression does not require a righteous church or leadership.

Anna and Simeon lived in Jerusalem when Jesus was born. They lived and grew up into the Law of Moses and Church system that had been led astray and was corrupted. They had to deal with everything wrong with the church including the false teachings and lack of true authority. Yet, these two people had received the Holy Ghost which led them to Jesus and helped them recognize Jesus as a baby. You don't need a righteous church or priesthood authority or ordinances to come to Christ and receive the Holy Ghost and follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There are countless similar stories showing this throughout the scriptures. Every restoration that ever happened was the result of a person seeking righteousness, living in a time where the church was corrupt and didn't have priesthood authority. In each instance, the person figured out that they needed to go to God directly which is the Gospel plan. Every one of us is in apostacy until we go to God directly and overcome our own personal fall from God's presence by receiving the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. No one can do it for you. No prophet or president of the church or righteous church organization can overcome your own personal apostacy for you. You must do it for yourself or remain in apostacy from God. The only way to overcome your own personal apostacy is to repent with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost which brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Then and only then are you worthy of being baptized, (D&C 20:37, 3 Nephi 7:25). If you are baptized before this, then you have broken the commandment of the Lord, (D&C 20:37), and you are not worthy of being a member of Christ's church, (Mosiah 26:21 & 28).

The fact that you don't know this is a testimony to what you have been taught by the church you attend and believe in. The fact that you think the doctrines of Christ include many more things than what is taught by Jesus and his prophets in the scriptures is a testimony to you that the church today is not Christ's church because it teaches doctrines that come of evil and open the gates of hell to receive you.

Only those who know and follow the true doctrines of Christ are built on the rock from which they cannot fall. Within the church there are those who are built on the rock and follow the doctrines of Christ and those who are not and do not. The Wheat and the Tares. They both do the same things, but for different reasons. Some are spiritually alive and some are spiritually dead. There will be a time when the tares are gathered together and cast into the fire. There are many tares in leadership positions in the church, teachings false doctrines. They are the thieves and robbers Jesus spoke of who entered in but not by the gate/door. They are thieves and robbers because they are teaching doctrines that take people away from Christ and his Church and his gospel.

There are some in the church like myself who teach the doctrines of Christ as spelled out in the scriptures. His sheep hear his voice and they come to him. Those who are not his sheep look for messengers and positions to follow rather than following his voice. They are not his sheep because they don't know or follow his voice.

Peace,
Amonhi
You said: "There are some in the church like myself who teach the doctrines of Christ as spelled out in the scriptures. His sheep hear his voice and they come to him. Those who are not his sheep look for messengers and positions to follow rather than following his voice. They are not his sheep because they don't know or follow his voice."

You claim to hear his voice, and so do I, and so do the prophets and apostles of our church. You claim to teach out of the scriptures, but the scriptures are filled with messengers. The scriptures were written by messengers and people with "positions," so if you are going off the scriptures, you too are looking to messengers to know the truth.
The messengers in the scriptures taught the Gospel which tells people that the Holy Ghost will tell them all things to do. They tell people to not trust in the arm of flesh but to put their trust in the spirit. They teach that anyone whom the Lord calls directly can speak for the Lord, even when they are not sustained or recognized by the church or group.(Like how Jesus was called.) They, even the Lord directly several times in the D&C teach that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is faith, Repentance, baptism and then comes the Holy Ghost. The prophets and the Lord in the scriptures tell us that these principles are the doctrines of Christ and there is no other doctrine until he visits us in the flesh. They tells us to that to add to or take away from these doctrines and call it Christ's doctrine comes of evil and opens the gates of hell. The Scriptures teach repeatedly that the fulness of the Ghost of Jesus Christ is found in the Book of Mormon as taught by Christ.

The church teaches to follow your leaders especially the prophet and that if your personal revelation contradicts the teachings of the church, then you trust the church and the prophet over the Holy Ghost. They teach a distorted Gospel which Jesus specifically said comes of evil and opens the gates of hell. They teach that the fulness of the Gospel is found in the Book of Mormon indirectly, but not taught completely by anyone specifically.

Now, I've shown in the scriptures exactly what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is and all of the doctrines that are accepted by the Father, the son and the Holy Ghost. I've shown that to teach more or less than this as Christ's doctrine and Gospel comes of evil and opens the gates of hell.

Can you tell me that the church does not teach more than these principles as the doctrine of Christ?

Peace,
Amonhi

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6708

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Sarah »

Amonhi wrote: July 29th, 2022, 7:08 am
Sarah wrote: July 28th, 2022, 9:36 am
Amonhi wrote: July 27th, 2022, 5:38 pm
Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:50 pm

Joseph Smith taught more than those basics, so what do you think of the church he started?
If the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Doctrine & Covenants are correct and they agree in stating the mind and will of the Lord saying,
3 Nephi 11
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
...then Christ's true church will not teach more or less than what is spelled out in 2 Nephi 31, 3 Nephi 11 and call it "the doctrine of Christ". If they teach more or less than what Jesus clearly stated as the only and true doctrine of the Father, son and Holy Ghost, AND they call it Christ's doctrine, then it is not and cannot be Christ's church because Christ's church does not teach things that come of evil and opens the gates of hell to receive people.

This does not mean that Christ's church cannot teach other principles, truths, etc. As long as the church's only "Doctrine" is aligned with Christ's only "Doctrine", then it is Christ's church and they can teach anything they want because the Doctrine says that the Holy Ghost will teach you all things and show you all things that you should do. That means that in Christ's church people follow the Holy Ghost which is the mind and will of God and not men.

If the church teaches more or less than this and calls it "doctrine" then the church's doctrine is not aligned with Christ's doctrine/gospel and it is not and cannot be Christ's church. (see 3 Nephi 27:8) Christ's Church only teaches Christ's doctrine as "doctrine" and has no other "doctrines". These doctrines are the only doctrines of God the Father, the son and the Holy Ghost, they had better be the only doctrines of Christ's church. If it is good enough for them, then it is good enough for his church. It becomes the foundation on which everything the Church teaches and does is based.

If the church is built on that foundation, then it doesn't matter what else the church or any member of the church or any pretended Holy person in the church teaches because the true members of Christ's church will listen to and follow the Holy Ghost which tells them the philosophies of men from the scripture.

Joseph Smith restored the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as spelled out in the scriptures. Few members are taught this or understand it or follow it today. Today, leaders of the church all the way up to the President of the church teach things that they call the doctrines of Christ which are not. In doing so they open the gates of hell to receive people. The most common of these false doctrines taught in the church today is "Follow the Prophet" which is a doctrine that is in exact opposition to the doctrine of Christ which tells us to only follow the spirit. It is also in direct contradiction of D&C 121:41-42, D&C 50:19-20 and several other instructions by the Lord.

Also, you seem to thing that people can't follow the plan without a righteous church with righteous leadership. Our personal progression does not require a righteous church or leadership.

Anna and Simeon lived in Jerusalem when Jesus was born. They lived and grew up into the Law of Moses and Church system that had been led astray and was corrupted. They had to deal with everything wrong with the church including the false teachings and lack of true authority. Yet, these two people had received the Holy Ghost which led them to Jesus and helped them recognize Jesus as a baby. You don't need a righteous church or priesthood authority or ordinances to come to Christ and receive the Holy Ghost and follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There are countless similar stories showing this throughout the scriptures. Every restoration that ever happened was the result of a person seeking righteousness, living in a time where the church was corrupt and didn't have priesthood authority. In each instance, the person figured out that they needed to go to God directly which is the Gospel plan. Every one of us is in apostacy until we go to God directly and overcome our own personal fall from God's presence by receiving the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. No one can do it for you. No prophet or president of the church or righteous church organization can overcome your own personal apostacy for you. You must do it for yourself or remain in apostacy from God. The only way to overcome your own personal apostacy is to repent with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost which brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Then and only then are you worthy of being baptized, (D&C 20:37, 3 Nephi 7:25). If you are baptized before this, then you have broken the commandment of the Lord, (D&C 20:37), and you are not worthy of being a member of Christ's church, (Mosiah 26:21 & 28).

The fact that you don't know this is a testimony to what you have been taught by the church you attend and believe in. The fact that you think the doctrines of Christ include many more things than what is taught by Jesus and his prophets in the scriptures is a testimony to you that the church today is not Christ's church because it teaches doctrines that come of evil and open the gates of hell to receive you.

Only those who know and follow the true doctrines of Christ are built on the rock from which they cannot fall. Within the church there are those who are built on the rock and follow the doctrines of Christ and those who are not and do not. The Wheat and the Tares. They both do the same things, but for different reasons. Some are spiritually alive and some are spiritually dead. There will be a time when the tares are gathered together and cast into the fire. There are many tares in leadership positions in the church, teachings false doctrines. They are the thieves and robbers Jesus spoke of who entered in but not by the gate/door. They are thieves and robbers because they are teaching doctrines that take people away from Christ and his Church and his gospel.

There are some in the church like myself who teach the doctrines of Christ as spelled out in the scriptures. His sheep hear his voice and they come to him. Those who are not his sheep look for messengers and positions to follow rather than following his voice. They are not his sheep because they don't know or follow his voice.

Peace,
Amonhi
You said: "There are some in the church like myself who teach the doctrines of Christ as spelled out in the scriptures. His sheep hear his voice and they come to him. Those who are not his sheep look for messengers and positions to follow rather than following his voice. They are not his sheep because they don't know or follow his voice."

You claim to hear his voice, and so do I, and so do the prophets and apostles of our church. You claim to teach out of the scriptures, but the scriptures are filled with messengers. The scriptures were written by messengers and people with "positions," so if you are going off the scriptures, you too are looking to messengers to know the truth.
The messengers in the scriptures taught the Gospel which tells people that the Holy Ghost will tell them all things to do. They tell people to not trust in the arm of flesh but to put their trust in the spirit. They teach that anyone whom the Lord calls directly can speak for the Lord, even when they are not sustained or recognized by the church or group.(Like how Jesus was called.) They, even the Lord directly several times in the D&C teach that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is faith, Repentance, baptism and then comes the Holy Ghost. The prophets and the Lord in the scriptures tell us that these principles are the doctrines of Christ and there is no other doctrine until he visits us in the flesh. They tells us to that to add to or take away from these doctrines and call it Christ's doctrine comes of evil and opens the gates of hell. The Scriptures teach repeatedly that the fulness of the Ghost of Jesus Christ is found in the Book of Mormon as taught by Christ.

The church teaches to follow your leaders especially the prophet and that if your personal revelation contradicts the teachings of the church, then you trust the church and the prophet over the Holy Ghost. They teach a distorted Gospel which Jesus specifically said comes of evil and opens the gates of hell. They teach that the fulness of the Gospel is found in the Book of Mormon indirectly, but not taught completely by anyone specifically.

Now, I've shown in the scriptures exactly what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is and all of the doctrines that are accepted by the Father, the son and the Holy Ghost. I've shown that to teach more or less than this as Christ's doctrine and Gospel comes of evil and opens the gates of hell.

Can you tell me that the church does not teach more than these principles as the doctrine of Christ?

Peace,
Amonhi
Paul also told the people to follow him, and he said a lot of things that weren't part of the doctrine of Christ. Does that make him not an apostle, unworthy to baptize and lay hands on people? Does that make everyone that listens to Paul not a true disciple?

Church leaders are fallible and give their advice sometimes. God also gives commandments in addition to faith, baptism, repentance, Holy Ghost. You need commandments to know what to repent of. Be ye therefore perfect and all those things Jesus Preached. They are commandments in addition to the basics. When it comes to church activities and things like that, God cares more about whether we are united with each other than what the details of the decision are.

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Artaxerxes »

Amonhi wrote: July 29th, 2022, 6:45 am
Artaxerxes wrote: July 28th, 2022, 4:11 pm
Amonhi wrote: July 28th, 2022, 3:25 pm
Sarah wrote: July 28th, 2022, 9:32 am

In the third article of faith JS speaks of being saved by obeying the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Christ. And the ordinances (principles) of the gospel to get you saved are indeed these first four things.
Yes, that is correct. These four things make up the entire gospel of Jesus Christ and they the the only principles and ordinances required for "Salvation". This is what is taught in the scriptures and by Joseph Smith. It is not what is taught in the LDS Church today.

What is currently being pointed out is that the Church today teaches that these 4 things are only the FIRST principles and ordinances of the Gospel and that there is a long list of other principles and ordinances that are part of the doctrine and gospel of Jesus Christ required for salvation.

The church today adds to this short list of doctrines approved by Christ and declares the extended list to be part of his doctrine and gospel. For example, in the principles of the Gospel on the church website, we read,
The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “The first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Articles of Faith 1:4). In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us TO BE EXALTED in the celestial kingdom. - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... l?lang=eng
First off, notice the someone, (Probably Brigham Young since he did this a lot), changed the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith after he died so that the entire church has been misquoting him for years. This is not what he said. It's close to what he said, but the difference between what he said and what we claim he said is major.

Secondly, It lumps the "saving principles and ordinances" with the "exalting principles and ordinances" along with all the doctrines, laws and covenants of the church and says they are all part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. (Flat wrong, comes of evil and opens the gates of hell.)

I think that you can ask any active member of the church to list all of the doctrines, principles and ordinances that they have been taught are part of the doctrine of Christ or the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the great majority of them will include things like tithing, the word of wisdom, priesthood blessings, Temple endowments and sealings and Eternal families, and a long list of things that have nothing to do with the doctrines or Gospel of Jesus Christ.

When I search the churches website for the doctrines of Christ and his gospel I find all sorts of things taught as Christ's doctrine and his Gospel which are wrong.

HERE - President Harold B. Lee is quoted in a modern manual saying that the First principles of the Gospel are faith, repentance, baptism and the Holy Ghost, but the gospel also includes "all of the laws of the Lord" including "to talk with God in prayer", "the Word of Wisdom", "keep the Sabbath day holy", "the law of fasting", "the law of chastity".

HERE - Is a link to the new Testament Seminary Teachers manual where they list various "Basic Doctrines" of the church including Restoration, The Fall, The creation, Marriage and Family, Commandments, and lots of other things. It specifically says, "The Basic Doctrines should be highlighted in both seminary and institute classes. Teachers are to help students identify, understand, believe, explain, and apply these doctrines of the gospel." and Other saving ordinances include ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing (see D&C 131:1–4).

We know from Several sources that the Book of Mormon contains "the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ".
Doctrine and Covenants 20:9
8 And gave him (Joseph Smith) power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;
9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;
and...
JSH 1
34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;
There should be no question that the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is contained in the Book of Mormon, and that it was taught by Jesus Christ specifically.

Well, there are a lot of people trying to explain how it is that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the Gospel and doesn't talk about all the doctrines taught as part of the gospel in the church today.
HERE - Is an article published by the church titled, "Why do we say that the Book of Mormon contains “the fulness of the gospel” (D&C 20:9) when it doesn’t contain some of the basic teachings of the Church? Why doesn’t it include such doctrines as the three degrees of glory, marriage for eternity, premortal existence of spirits, and baptism for the dead?" The author fumbles through quoting scripture after scripture which teaches the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and then tries to explain, that the writers of the Book of Mormon "also understood that their writings would come forth in the last days during a period of unbelief, when the true Church had been taken from the earth. (See 2 Ne. 25:3–23; 2 Ne. 26:16–24; Jacob 4:4, 13–16; Morm. 8:25–35; Moro. 10:24–34.) Thus, their stated purpose was to help lead us to Christ and to the true Church, rather than to provide all the teachings and ordinances of the gospel that we might receive after becoming members of the Church. In other words, the author concludes that the Book of Mormon doesn't contain in it the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but the means to find the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is not contained in the Book of Mormon.

"The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." - LDS Church

The doctrines of Christ which make up the Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by the Church today is "In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us TO BE EXALTED in the celestial kingdom."
  • The First principles and ordinances of the Gospel are:
    • Faith
    • Repentance
    • Baptism
    • The Holy Ghost
  • Other Principles and Ordinances of the Gospel include
    • Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood
    • Endowment
    • Temple sealing
    • Law of Chastity
    • Law of the Sabbath
    • Law of Tithing
    • Word of Wisdom
    • Pre-mortal life
    • Follow the Prophet
    • Etc., Etc., Etc. = A very long list of doctrines and ordinances
Jesus and his prophets said about 8 times in scriptures that his doctrine and gospel are only:
  • Faith
  • Repentance
  • Baptism
  • The Holy Ghost
After teaching this 3 times, they explained that these are the only doctrines accepted by the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost and that to add more or less than these comes of evil and opens the gates of hell to receive such.

Jesus also said that a church is only his church if it is called by his name AND it teaches his gospel without taking away or adding to it.

The LDS Church is called after the name of Christ, but it adds doctrine and ordinances to his Gospel so that it is no longer recognized as his Gospel.

Therefore, the church today is not his church, which is why very, very few members of the LSD church can correctly define the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, even though it is taught repeatedly in the scriptures.

When it was establish by Joseph Smith, the doctrine of the church matched the doctrine of Christ. After Joseph Smith died, Brigham Young and others changed church history, Joseph Smith's writings and journals and other historical documents to say entirely different things, including the Articles of Faith. There are several examples of such changes documented in the thread, "More changes to Church History Confirmed...

Peace,
Amonhi
Yeah, can you imagine Joseph calling them the first principles? Can you imagine he saying something like:

"the first principles of the gospel, which are repentance, and baptism for the remission of sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands."
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ber-1835/2

"The first principles of the gospel as I believe. first Faith. Repentance. Baptism for the remission of sins. with the promise of the Holy Ghost."
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ource-note

I mean, can you even imagine?
Good find. Thank you. I'll be sure to remember that Joseph Smith was the source of that false doctrine which contradicts Nephi, and Jesus in the Book of Mormon and The Lord in the D&C. It isn't the first time he was clearly wrong, and it won't be the last.

Peace
Amonhi
Nope. As always, you guys are wrong.

What Joseph said: Are you done after completing the first principles and ordinances of the gospel? No.

What Nephi said: I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

They are the first and ordinances of the gospel. You guys just need to humble yourself enough to see that the false traditions you have adopted are contrary to the scriptures and the words of the prophets.

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Amonhi »

Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 2:13 pm
Luke wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:58 pm
Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:50 pm
Amonhi wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:42 pm
To teach and spread his doctrines which all together form his Gospel. Jesus said that for an organization to be HIS church, it must meet two requirements.
  • I must be called in his name.
  • It must teach his doctrine.

His doctrines which form the fulness of his Gospel which the church is required to be built on to be his church, are:
  • Faith in Christ
  • True Repentance = Broken heart and a contrite spirit
  • Baptism by Water
  • then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things that you should do.
That's it. Those are the only doctrines of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, and the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Adding to or taking away from that list and calling it the doctrines of Christ comes of evil, opens the gates of hell to receive people and makes the church not Christ's church.

This was plainly taught in 2 Nephi 31 which concludes by saying,


It was taught again by Jesus in 3 Nephi 11 after which he concluded by saying,


It has been taught and declared over and over again by the Lord and his prophets, for example:






That is why he organized the church. It was organized to spread his gospel which consists of all his doctrines and only his doctrines. Any organization that teaches more or less than this and calls it his doctrine is not his church and is not doing his work, but is opening the gates of hell to receive people.

Enduring to the end means following the Holy Ghost which tells us the words of Christ/God/the Iron rod which brings us to the end of the path which is eternal life.

Peace,
Amonhi
Joseph Smith taught more than those basics, so what do you think of the church he started?
He absolutely taught something more (which I wholeheartedly believe in), but he never said it was part of “the Doctrine of Christ” or first principles.
I agree with that. But the LDS church also teaches these basics as the doctrine of Christ and as the first principles of the gospel.
As long as they do not teach anything that negates, interferes or dismantles the foundation of the gospel, they are ok. But, once the church or anyone teaches something that dismantles the foundation they are no longer built on the rock and they have opened the gates of hell to receive the people.

The foundation is that the Holy Ghost will teach us all things and tell us all things that we should do. If someone says that the Holy Ghost can't teach us or can't be trusted, then they have destroyed the foundation and are no longer built of the rock or teaching Christ's doctrine/gospel. If someone says that the Holy Ghost must be checked against the prophet then they have destroyed the foundation and placed the Prophet above the Holy Ghost in telling you all things that you should do. (For those of you who don't realize the problem, we are supposed to verify all the teachings of the prophets against the Holy Ghost, not verify the teachings of the Holy Ghost against the prophets.

If someone tells you to "Follow the Prophet" they are telling you to not follow the Holy Ghost because if the prophet instructs contrary to the Holy Ghost or the will of God, then following the prophet is not following the Holy Ghost.

If someone tells you that if you personal revelation from the Holy Ghost conflicts with the instructions of the prophet you should follow the Prophet, then they have destroyed the foundation on which we should be built and taught contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His doctrine.

Again, any doctrine that does not support, encourage and teach that the Holy Ghost will teach you all things and tell you all things that you should do is contrary to the doctrine of Christ that makes up his Gospel. If the church or anyone in the church teaches anything that diminishes or destroys that foundation, then they are opening the gates of hell and their teachings come of evil and are not of God.

This means that even if we are teaching the doctrine of Christ and preaching his gospel to new converts and building them on the rock or sure foundation, we can still destroy that foundation by teaching doctrines that contradict that foundation. Like, as a new member joins the church, telling them that they can't trust their own revelation and they need to follow the prophet. If the church destroys the doctrine and Christ and his gospel by teaching contrary to it, then it is not his church.

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Amonhi »

Sarah wrote: July 28th, 2022, 8:13 am
SPIRIT wrote: July 28th, 2022, 12:48 am
Sarah wrote: July 26th, 2022, 12:35 pm Someone has to have the Keys of the Kingdom, and the authority to organize the Lord's church and administer the ordinances etc. We are not all meant to be individual islands, but must be organized.
I guess you haven't read the Book of Mormon very much,
to find out what happened to a people - and will happen to us - for not heeding their warnings.
A people who once had the gospel and lost it -
You're like them - in your pride - saying
" we are the one and only rue church - we have the one and only true gospel and will never lose it"
famous last words.

they (The House of Israel) actually lost it to us - and now, we (the Gentiles) will lose it back to them;
but of course you wouldn't know that, because you care more about blindly following church leaders
and what they say, than you do in reading and believing in the scriptures and what they say.


"Two consecutive histories of fallen peoples on this land fore-warn
the Gentiles of their own imminent fate. (Eth. 2:11; 8:21-26).
Mormon has vividly described the destruction of the Nephites. (Morm. 6:1-22).
Now Moroni recounts the destruction of the Jaredites in order to persuade
the Gentiles to repent."
(Eth. 2:11; 8:23).
Yes, the Gentiles will go down, but I am no longer a gentile, but am part of covenant Israel, because I keep my covenants that were performed under Priesthood authority. I am one of the ones spoken of in the BofM that has believed and is numbered among the house of Israel.
Keeping covenants performed by priesthood authority is not what makes us adopted into Israel.

See thread The law of Carnal Commandments and the Holy Ghost

Peace,
Amonhi
Last edited by Amonhi on July 29th, 2022, 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6708

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Sarah »

Amonhi wrote: July 29th, 2022, 3:16 pm
Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 2:13 pm
Luke wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:58 pm
Sarah wrote: July 27th, 2022, 1:50 pm

Joseph Smith taught more than those basics, so what do you think of the church he started?
He absolutely taught something more (which I wholeheartedly believe in), but he never said it was part of “the Doctrine of Christ” or first principles.
I agree with that. But the LDS church also teaches these basics as the doctrine of Christ and as the first principles of the gospel.
As long as they do not teach anything that negates, interferes or dismantles the foundation of the gospel, they are ok. But, once the church or anyone teaches something that dismantles the foundation they are no longer built on the rock and they have opened the gates of hell to receive the people.

The foundation is that the Holy Ghost will teach us all things and tell us all things that we should do. If someone says that the Holy Ghost can't teach us or can't be trusted, then they have destroyed the foundation and are no longer built of the rock or teaching Christ's doctrine/gospel. If someone says that the Holy Ghost must be checked against the prophet then they have destroyed the foundation and placed the Prophet above the Holy Ghost in telling you all things that you should do. (For those of you who don't realize the problem, we are supposed to verify all the teachings of the prophets against the Holy Ghost, not verify the teachings of the Holy Ghost against the prophets.

If someone tells you to "Follow the Prophet" they are telling you to not follow the Holy Ghost because if the prophet instructs contrary to the Holy Ghost or the will of God, then following the prophet is not following the Holy Ghost.

If someone tells you that if you personal revelation from the Holy Ghost conflicts with the instructions of the prophet you should follow the Prophet, then they have destroyed the foundation on which we should be built and taught contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His doctrine.

Again, any doctrine that does not support, encourage and teach that the Holy Ghost will teach you all things and tell you all things that you should do is contrary to the doctrine of Christ that makes up his Gospel. If the church or anyone in the church teaches anything that diminishes or destroys that foundation, then they are opening the gates of hell and their teachings come of evil and are not of God.

This means that even if we are teaching the doctrine of Christ and preaching his gospel to new converts and building them on the rock or sure foundation, we can still destroy that foundation by teaching doctrines that contradict that foundation. Like, as a new member joins the church, telling them that they can't trust their own revelation and they need to follow the prophet. If the church destroys the doctrine and Christ and his gospel by teaching contrary to it, then it is not his church.

Peace,
Amonhi
I have not heard it preached often if at all that you need to check that your promptings match the prophet's words, but I have heard it preached very often to make sure we are worthy of and listening to the Holy Ghost. I don't think they are dismantling the basics like you claim.

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6708

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Sarah »

Amonhi wrote: July 29th, 2022, 3:19 pm
Sarah wrote: July 28th, 2022, 8:13 am
SPIRIT wrote: July 28th, 2022, 12:48 am
Sarah wrote: July 26th, 2022, 12:35 pm Someone has to have the Keys of the Kingdom, and the authority to organize the Lord's church and administer the ordinances etc. We are not all meant to be individual islands, but must be organized.
I guess you haven't read the Book of Mormon very much,
to find out what happened to a people - and will happen to us - for not heeding their warnings.
A people who once had the gospel and lost it -
You're like them - in your pride - saying
" we are the one and only rue church - we have the one and only true gospel and will never lose it"
famous last words.

they (The House of Israel) actually lost it to us - and now, we (the Gentiles) will lose it back to them;
but of course you wouldn't know that, because you care more about blindly following church leaders
and what they say, than you do in reading and believing in the scriptures and what they say.


"Two consecutive histories of fallen peoples on this land fore-warn
the Gentiles of their own imminent fate. (Eth. 2:11; 8:21-26).
Mormon has vividly described the destruction of the Nephites. (Morm. 6:1-22).
Now Moroni recounts the destruction of the Jaredites in order to persuade
the Gentiles to repent."
(Eth. 2:11; 8:23).
Yes, the Gentiles will go down, but I am no longer a gentile, but am part of covenant Israel, because I keep my covenants that were performed under Priesthood authority. I am one of the ones spoken of in the BofM that has believed and is numbered among the house of Israel.
Keeping covenants performed by priesthood authority is not what makes us adopted into Israel.

Peace,
Amonhi
Jacob said it was repentance and believing in Christ (those who would be counted as the House of Israel) and repentance leads us to baptism, and to keeping the Lord's commandments.

User avatar
Redpilled Mormon
captain of 100
Posts: 664

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Sarah wrote: July 29th, 2022, 8:06 am
Paul also told the people to follow him, and he said a lot of things that weren't part of the doctrine of Christ. Does that make him not an apostle, unworthy to baptize and lay hands on people? Does that make everyone that listens to Paul not a true disciple?

If Paul himself appeared before me in a resurrected body, along with Moses, Joseph Smith, Noah, Peter, James, John, even Adam, and all of them together preached something that was directly contrary to what Jesus Christ Himself taught as His doctrine, then I would still only trust and follow what the Savior taught, and disregard all the rest as trusting in the arm of flesh.

3 Nephi 11 states clearly what the doctrine of Christ is, from Christ's own lips. He was the one who said that anything added to or taken away would not be His doctrine, and would come of evil. All of the arm of flesh (even truly great men and prophets) is as nothing beside the Lord. He cannot lie.
Last edited by Redpilled Mormon on July 29th, 2022, 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Redpilled Mormon
captain of 100
Posts: 664

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 10:26 am
Nope. As always, you guys are wrong.

What Joseph said: Are you done after completing the first principles and ordinances of the gospel? No.

What Nephi said: I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

They are the first and ordinances of the gospel. You guys just need to humble yourself enough to see that the false traditions you have adopted are contrary to the scriptures and the words of the prophets.
You believe that the Savior is a liar, then? Or maybe you don't believe the Book of Mormon is true?

If the Book of Mormon is true, then the account in 3 Nephi 11 where the Savior instructs what His full and complete doctrine is, from His own lips, and commands that anything added to or taken away from that doctrine comes solely of evil, then in order to disregard what He actually says then you must be assuming that He is a liar.

BTW, you are giving an illogical equivalency to the notion of 'being done' with the concept that the Savior's doctrine is complete. Christ full doctrine is on display in 3 Nephi 11, as spoken by the resurrected Savior. He states that we must believe and be baptized, then He restates the requirements as repent and be baptized, which if I'm reading correctly equates belief and repentance as basically the same thing, or perhaps 2 sides of the same coin. There is no getting 'done' with believing, nor getting 'done' with repenting in this life, is there? So I don't see how Nephi's quote conflicts, or somehow implies that we'll just go on adding new pieces to Christ's doctrine as time goes on.

If we are listing the components of Christ's doctrine, then yeah we are definitely 'done' with the the list since the Savior said it was a complete doctrine Himself.

User avatar
John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4154

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by John Tavner »

Sarah wrote: July 29th, 2022, 8:06 am
Amonhi wrote: July 29th, 2022, 7:08 am
Sarah wrote: July 28th, 2022, 9:36 am
Amonhi wrote: July 27th, 2022, 5:38 pm
If the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Doctrine & Covenants are correct and they agree in stating the mind and will of the Lord saying,

...then Christ's true church will not teach more or less than what is spelled out in 2 Nephi 31, 3 Nephi 11 and call it "the doctrine of Christ". If they teach more or less than what Jesus clearly stated as the only and true doctrine of the Father, son and Holy Ghost, AND they call it Christ's doctrine, then it is not and cannot be Christ's church because Christ's church does not teach things that come of evil and opens the gates of hell to receive people.

This does not mean that Christ's church cannot teach other principles, truths, etc. As long as the church's only "Doctrine" is aligned with Christ's only "Doctrine", then it is Christ's church and they can teach anything they want because the Doctrine says that the Holy Ghost will teach you all things and show you all things that you should do. That means that in Christ's church people follow the Holy Ghost which is the mind and will of God and not men.

If the church teaches more or less than this and calls it "doctrine" then the church's doctrine is not aligned with Christ's doctrine/gospel and it is not and cannot be Christ's church. (see 3 Nephi 27:8) Christ's Church only teaches Christ's doctrine as "doctrine" and has no other "doctrines". These doctrines are the only doctrines of God the Father, the son and the Holy Ghost, they had better be the only doctrines of Christ's church. If it is good enough for them, then it is good enough for his church. It becomes the foundation on which everything the Church teaches and does is based.

If the church is built on that foundation, then it doesn't matter what else the church or any member of the church or any pretended Holy person in the church teaches because the true members of Christ's church will listen to and follow the Holy Ghost which tells them the philosophies of men from the scripture.

Joseph Smith restored the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as spelled out in the scriptures. Few members are taught this or understand it or follow it today. Today, leaders of the church all the way up to the President of the church teach things that they call the doctrines of Christ which are not. In doing so they open the gates of hell to receive people. The most common of these false doctrines taught in the church today is "Follow the Prophet" which is a doctrine that is in exact opposition to the doctrine of Christ which tells us to only follow the spirit. It is also in direct contradiction of D&C 121:41-42, D&C 50:19-20 and several other instructions by the Lord.

Also, you seem to thing that people can't follow the plan without a righteous church with righteous leadership. Our personal progression does not require a righteous church or leadership.

Anna and Simeon lived in Jerusalem when Jesus was born. They lived and grew up into the Law of Moses and Church system that had been led astray and was corrupted. They had to deal with everything wrong with the church including the false teachings and lack of true authority. Yet, these two people had received the Holy Ghost which led them to Jesus and helped them recognize Jesus as a baby. You don't need a righteous church or priesthood authority or ordinances to come to Christ and receive the Holy Ghost and follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There are countless similar stories showing this throughout the scriptures. Every restoration that ever happened was the result of a person seeking righteousness, living in a time where the church was corrupt and didn't have priesthood authority. In each instance, the person figured out that they needed to go to God directly which is the Gospel plan. Every one of us is in apostacy until we go to God directly and overcome our own personal fall from God's presence by receiving the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. No one can do it for you. No prophet or president of the church or righteous church organization can overcome your own personal apostacy for you. You must do it for yourself or remain in apostacy from God. The only way to overcome your own personal apostacy is to repent with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost which brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Then and only then are you worthy of being baptized, (D&C 20:37, 3 Nephi 7:25). If you are baptized before this, then you have broken the commandment of the Lord, (D&C 20:37), and you are not worthy of being a member of Christ's church, (Mosiah 26:21 & 28).

The fact that you don't know this is a testimony to what you have been taught by the church you attend and believe in. The fact that you think the doctrines of Christ include many more things than what is taught by Jesus and his prophets in the scriptures is a testimony to you that the church today is not Christ's church because it teaches doctrines that come of evil and open the gates of hell to receive you.

Only those who know and follow the true doctrines of Christ are built on the rock from which they cannot fall. Within the church there are those who are built on the rock and follow the doctrines of Christ and those who are not and do not. The Wheat and the Tares. They both do the same things, but for different reasons. Some are spiritually alive and some are spiritually dead. There will be a time when the tares are gathered together and cast into the fire. There are many tares in leadership positions in the church, teachings false doctrines. They are the thieves and robbers Jesus spoke of who entered in but not by the gate/door. They are thieves and robbers because they are teaching doctrines that take people away from Christ and his Church and his gospel.

There are some in the church like myself who teach the doctrines of Christ as spelled out in the scriptures. His sheep hear his voice and they come to him. Those who are not his sheep look for messengers and positions to follow rather than following his voice. They are not his sheep because they don't know or follow his voice.

Peace,
Amonhi
You said: "There are some in the church like myself who teach the doctrines of Christ as spelled out in the scriptures. His sheep hear his voice and they come to him. Those who are not his sheep look for messengers and positions to follow rather than following his voice. They are not his sheep because they don't know or follow his voice."

You claim to hear his voice, and so do I, and so do the prophets and apostles of our church. You claim to teach out of the scriptures, but the scriptures are filled with messengers. The scriptures were written by messengers and people with "positions," so if you are going off the scriptures, you too are looking to messengers to know the truth.
The messengers in the scriptures taught the Gospel which tells people that the Holy Ghost will tell them all things to do. They tell people to not trust in the arm of flesh but to put their trust in the spirit. They teach that anyone whom the Lord calls directly can speak for the Lord, even when they are not sustained or recognized by the church or group.(Like how Jesus was called.) They, even the Lord directly several times in the D&C teach that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is faith, Repentance, baptism and then comes the Holy Ghost. The prophets and the Lord in the scriptures tell us that these principles are the doctrines of Christ and there is no other doctrine until he visits us in the flesh. They tells us to that to add to or take away from these doctrines and call it Christ's doctrine comes of evil and opens the gates of hell. The Scriptures teach repeatedly that the fulness of the Ghost of Jesus Christ is found in the Book of Mormon as taught by Christ.

The church teaches to follow your leaders especially the prophet and that if your personal revelation contradicts the teachings of the church, then you trust the church and the prophet over the Holy Ghost. They teach a distorted Gospel which Jesus specifically said comes of evil and opens the gates of hell. They teach that the fulness of the Gospel is found in the Book of Mormon indirectly, but not taught completely by anyone specifically.

Now, I've shown in the scriptures exactly what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is and all of the doctrines that are accepted by the Father, the son and the Holy Ghost. I've shown that to teach more or less than this as Christ's doctrine and Gospel comes of evil and opens the gates of hell.

Can you tell me that the church does not teach more than these principles as the doctrine of Christ?

Peace,
Amonhi
Paul also told the people to follow him, and he said a lot of things that weren't part of the doctrine of Christ. Does that make him not an apostle, unworthy to baptize and lay hands on people? Does that make everyone that listens to Paul not a true disciple?

Church leaders are fallible and give their advice sometimes. God also gives commandments in addition to faith, baptism, repentance, Holy Ghost. You need commandments to know what to repent of. Be ye therefore perfect and all those things Jesus Preached. They are commandments in addition to the basics. When it comes to church activities and things like that, God cares more about whether we are united with each other than what the details of the decision are.
Paul was saying follow him as he followed Christ - meaning he was saying he was an example - showing that it was possible to follow Christ.

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Artaxerxes »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 3:51 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 10:26 am
Nope. As always, you guys are wrong.

What Joseph said: Are you done after completing the first principles and ordinances of the gospel? No.

What Nephi said: I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

They are the first and ordinances of the gospel. You guys just need to humble yourself enough to see that the false traditions you have adopted are contrary to the scriptures and the words of the prophets.
You believe that the Savior is a liar, then? Or maybe you don't believe the Book of Mormon is true?

If the Book of Mormon is true, then the account in 3 Nephi 11 where the Savior instructs what His full and complete doctrine is, from His own lips, and commands that anything added to or taken away from that doctrine comes solely of evil, then in order to disregard what He actually says then you must be assuming that He is a liar.

BTW, you are giving an illogical equivalency to the notion of 'being done' with the concept that the Savior's doctrine is complete. Christ full doctrine is on display in 3 Nephi 11, as spoken by the resurrected Savior. He states that we must believe and be baptized, then He restates the requirements as repent and be baptized, which if I'm reading correctly equates belief and repentance as basically the same thing, or perhaps 2 sides of the same coin. There is no getting 'done' with believing, nor getting 'done' with repenting in this life, is there? So I don't see how Nephi's quote conflicts, or somehow implies that we'll just go on adding new pieces to Christ's doctrine as time goes on.

If we are listing the components of Christ's doctrine, then yeah we are definitely 'done' with the the list since the Savior said it was a complete doctrine Himself.
I quoted the book of Mormon and Joseph. Why don't you believe them? Why do you call Nephi and Joseph liars?

User avatar
Redpilled Mormon
captain of 100
Posts: 664

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:11 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 3:51 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 10:26 am
Nope. As always, you guys are wrong.

What Joseph said: Are you done after completing the first principles and ordinances of the gospel? No.

What Nephi said: I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

They are the first and ordinances of the gospel. You guys just need to humble yourself enough to see that the false traditions you have adopted are contrary to the scriptures and the words of the prophets.
You believe that the Savior is a liar, then? Or maybe you don't believe the Book of Mormon is true?

If the Book of Mormon is true, then the account in 3 Nephi 11 where the Savior instructs what His full and complete doctrine is, from His own lips, and commands that anything added to or taken away from that doctrine comes solely of evil, then in order to disregard what He actually says then you must be assuming that He is a liar.

BTW, you are giving an illogical equivalency to the notion of 'being done' with the concept that the Savior's doctrine is complete. Christ full doctrine is on display in 3 Nephi 11, as spoken by the resurrected Savior. He states that we must believe and be baptized, then He restates the requirements as repent and be baptized, which if I'm reading correctly equates belief and repentance as basically the same thing, or perhaps 2 sides of the same coin. There is no getting 'done' with believing, nor getting 'done' with repenting in this life, is there? So I don't see how Nephi's quote conflicts, or somehow implies that we'll just go on adding new pieces to Christ's doctrine as time goes on.

If we are listing the components of Christ's doctrine, then yeah we are definitely 'done' with the the list since the Savior said it was a complete doctrine Himself.
I quoted the book of Mormon and Joseph. Why don't you believe them? Why do you call Nephi and Joseph liars?
Let's play your game, even though you know very well I never called Joseph or Nephi liars, nor did I contradict them.

But ok, let's play it out. If Nephi and Joseph are liars... so what, we trust in God. The universe hangs together just fine with or without Joseph and Nephi telling the truth.

On the other hand, if God is a liar, then the very universe cannot be, and all flies apart. But God cannot lie, and He is not a liar. Which is why I recommend you stop disregarding what He said on this matter. I realize that is a difficult ask, if you're deep in cognitive dissonance and steeped in clinging to the arm of flesh, but it's the only path that doesn't lead to destruction imo.

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6708

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Sarah »

John Tavner wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:02 pm
Sarah wrote: July 29th, 2022, 8:06 am
Amonhi wrote: July 29th, 2022, 7:08 am
Sarah wrote: July 28th, 2022, 9:36 am

You said: "There are some in the church like myself who teach the doctrines of Christ as spelled out in the scriptures. His sheep hear his voice and they come to him. Those who are not his sheep look for messengers and positions to follow rather than following his voice. They are not his sheep because they don't know or follow his voice."

You claim to hear his voice, and so do I, and so do the prophets and apostles of our church. You claim to teach out of the scriptures, but the scriptures are filled with messengers. The scriptures were written by messengers and people with "positions," so if you are going off the scriptures, you too are looking to messengers to know the truth.
The messengers in the scriptures taught the Gospel which tells people that the Holy Ghost will tell them all things to do. They tell people to not trust in the arm of flesh but to put their trust in the spirit. They teach that anyone whom the Lord calls directly can speak for the Lord, even when they are not sustained or recognized by the church or group.(Like how Jesus was called.) They, even the Lord directly several times in the D&C teach that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is faith, Repentance, baptism and then comes the Holy Ghost. The prophets and the Lord in the scriptures tell us that these principles are the doctrines of Christ and there is no other doctrine until he visits us in the flesh. They tells us to that to add to or take away from these doctrines and call it Christ's doctrine comes of evil and opens the gates of hell. The Scriptures teach repeatedly that the fulness of the Ghost of Jesus Christ is found in the Book of Mormon as taught by Christ.

The church teaches to follow your leaders especially the prophet and that if your personal revelation contradicts the teachings of the church, then you trust the church and the prophet over the Holy Ghost. They teach a distorted Gospel which Jesus specifically said comes of evil and opens the gates of hell. They teach that the fulness of the Gospel is found in the Book of Mormon indirectly, but not taught completely by anyone specifically.

Now, I've shown in the scriptures exactly what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is and all of the doctrines that are accepted by the Father, the son and the Holy Ghost. I've shown that to teach more or less than this as Christ's doctrine and Gospel comes of evil and opens the gates of hell.

Can you tell me that the church does not teach more than these principles as the doctrine of Christ?

Peace,
Amonhi
Paul also told the people to follow him, and he said a lot of things that weren't part of the doctrine of Christ. Does that make him not an apostle, unworthy to baptize and lay hands on people? Does that make everyone that listens to Paul not a true disciple?

Church leaders are fallible and give their advice sometimes. God also gives commandments in addition to faith, baptism, repentance, Holy Ghost. You need commandments to know what to repent of. Be ye therefore perfect and all those things Jesus Preached. They are commandments in addition to the basics. When it comes to church activities and things like that, God cares more about whether we are united with each other than what the details of the decision are.
Paul was saying follow him as he followed Christ - meaning he was saying he was an example - showing that it was possible to follow Christ.
I agree with that and feel that is the attitude of our apostles. They know they are giving us the will of the Lord anytime they feel he has communicated with them what His will is for the entire church.

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Artaxerxes »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:27 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:11 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 3:51 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 10:26 am
Nope. As always, you guys are wrong.

What Joseph said: Are you done after completing the first principles and ordinances of the gospel? No.

What Nephi said: I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

They are the first and ordinances of the gospel. You guys just need to humble yourself enough to see that the false traditions you have adopted are contrary to the scriptures and the words of the prophets.
You believe that the Savior is a liar, then? Or maybe you don't believe the Book of Mormon is true?

If the Book of Mormon is true, then the account in 3 Nephi 11 where the Savior instructs what His full and complete doctrine is, from His own lips, and commands that anything added to or taken away from that doctrine comes solely of evil, then in order to disregard what He actually says then you must be assuming that He is a liar.

BTW, you are giving an illogical equivalency to the notion of 'being done' with the concept that the Savior's doctrine is complete. Christ full doctrine is on display in 3 Nephi 11, as spoken by the resurrected Savior. He states that we must believe and be baptized, then He restates the requirements as repent and be baptized, which if I'm reading correctly equates belief and repentance as basically the same thing, or perhaps 2 sides of the same coin. There is no getting 'done' with believing, nor getting 'done' with repenting in this life, is there? So I don't see how Nephi's quote conflicts, or somehow implies that we'll just go on adding new pieces to Christ's doctrine as time goes on.

If we are listing the components of Christ's doctrine, then yeah we are definitely 'done' with the the list since the Savior said it was a complete doctrine Himself.
I quoted the book of Mormon and Joseph. Why don't you believe them? Why do you call Nephi and Joseph liars?
Let's play your game, even though you know very well I never called Joseph or Nephi liars, nor did I contradict them.

But ok, let's play it out. If Nephi and Joseph are liars... so what, we trust in God. The universe hangs together just fine with or without Joseph and Nephi telling the truth.

On the other hand, if God is a liar, then the very universe cannot be, and all flies apart. But God cannot lie, and He is not a liar. Which is why I recommend you stop disregarding what He said on this matter. I realize that is a difficult ask, if you're deep in cognitive dissonance and steeped in clinging to the arm of flesh, but it's the only path that doesn't lead to destruction imo.
I have disregarded nothing. You have chosen to ignore God's word.

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6708

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Sarah »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 3:39 pm
Sarah wrote: July 29th, 2022, 8:06 am
Paul also told the people to follow him, and he said a lot of things that weren't part of the doctrine of Christ. Does that make him not an apostle, unworthy to baptize and lay hands on people? Does that make everyone that listens to Paul not a true disciple?

If Paul himself appeared before me in a resurrected body, along with Moses, Joseph Smith, Noah, Peter, James, John, even Adam, and all of them together preached something that was directly contrary to what Jesus Christ Himself taught as His doctrine, then I would still only trust and follow what the Savior taught, and disregard all the rest as trusting in the arm of flesh.

3 Nephi 11 states clearly what the doctrine of Christ is, from Christ's own lips. He was the one who said that anything added to or taken away would not be His doctrine, and would come of evil. All of the arm of flesh (even truly great men and prophets) is as nothing beside the Lord. He cannot lie.
Perhaps you are misinterpreting what the Lord means with his words. This is his doctrine in that all people must follow this path through these steps. We shouldn't take away or add to these steps in order to come unto him. He also asks us to follow his commandments, and receive the Priesthood blessings which he desires to give us (through temple ordinances). So what would you call all his teachings in the Sermon on the Mount? Are those commandments part of his doctrine or not?

User avatar
Redpilled Mormon
captain of 100
Posts: 664

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:32 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:27 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:11 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 3:51 pm

You believe that the Savior is a liar, then? Or maybe you don't believe the Book of Mormon is true?

If the Book of Mormon is true, then the account in 3 Nephi 11 where the Savior instructs what His full and complete doctrine is, from His own lips, and commands that anything added to or taken away from that doctrine comes solely of evil, then in order to disregard what He actually says then you must be assuming that He is a liar.

BTW, you are giving an illogical equivalency to the notion of 'being done' with the concept that the Savior's doctrine is complete. Christ full doctrine is on display in 3 Nephi 11, as spoken by the resurrected Savior. He states that we must believe and be baptized, then He restates the requirements as repent and be baptized, which if I'm reading correctly equates belief and repentance as basically the same thing, or perhaps 2 sides of the same coin. There is no getting 'done' with believing, nor getting 'done' with repenting in this life, is there? So I don't see how Nephi's quote conflicts, or somehow implies that we'll just go on adding new pieces to Christ's doctrine as time goes on.

If we are listing the components of Christ's doctrine, then yeah we are definitely 'done' with the the list since the Savior said it was a complete doctrine Himself.
I quoted the book of Mormon and Joseph. Why don't you believe them? Why do you call Nephi and Joseph liars?
Let's play your game, even though you know very well I never called Joseph or Nephi liars, nor did I contradict them.

But ok, let's play it out. If Nephi and Joseph are liars... so what, we trust in God. The universe hangs together just fine with or without Joseph and Nephi telling the truth.

On the other hand, if God is a liar, then the very universe cannot be, and all flies apart. But God cannot lie, and He is not a liar. Which is why I recommend you stop disregarding what He said on this matter. I realize that is a difficult ask, if you're deep in cognitive dissonance and steeped in clinging to the arm of flesh, but it's the only path that doesn't lead to destruction imo.
I have disregarded nothing. You have chosen to ignore God's word.
Many, many times I have ignored God's word, that much is very true. I am a very sinful man, but at least I am aware of that fact.

On the other hand, you maintain you have 'disregarded nothing'. That's the exact attitude of pride which exemplifies why pride may just be the worst of the vices, and leads to self-blindness and destruction.

I realize you're just trolling, which is fine, but at the end of the day the Doctrine of Christ strikes me as a pretty important topic. To completely ignore what Christ Himself said about His own doctrine seems to me to be a foolish decision.

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Artaxerxes »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:01 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:32 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:27 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:11 pm

I quoted the book of Mormon and Joseph. Why don't you believe them? Why do you call Nephi and Joseph liars?
Let's play your game, even though you know very well I never called Joseph or Nephi liars, nor did I contradict them.

But ok, let's play it out. If Nephi and Joseph are liars... so what, we trust in God. The universe hangs together just fine with or without Joseph and Nephi telling the truth.

On the other hand, if God is a liar, then the very universe cannot be, and all flies apart. But God cannot lie, and He is not a liar. Which is why I recommend you stop disregarding what He said on this matter. I realize that is a difficult ask, if you're deep in cognitive dissonance and steeped in clinging to the arm of flesh, but it's the only path that doesn't lead to destruction imo.
I have disregarded nothing. You have chosen to ignore God's word.
Many, many times I have ignored God's word, that much is very true. I am a very sinful man, but at least I am aware of that fact.

On the other hand, you maintain you have 'disregarded nothing'. That's the exact attitude of pride which exemplifies why pride may just be the worst of the vices, and leads to self-blindness and destruction.

I realize you're just trolling, which is fine, but at the end of the day the Doctrine of Christ strikes me as a pretty important topic. To completely ignore what Christ Himself said about His own doctrine seems to me to be a foolish decision.
No one is ignoring this as you claim. People simply realize that all scriptures should be read together, which you refuse to do.

User avatar
Redpilled Mormon
captain of 100
Posts: 664

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Sarah wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:35 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 3:39 pm
Sarah wrote: July 29th, 2022, 8:06 am
Paul also told the people to follow him, and he said a lot of things that weren't part of the doctrine of Christ. Does that make him not an apostle, unworthy to baptize and lay hands on people? Does that make everyone that listens to Paul not a true disciple?

If Paul himself appeared before me in a resurrected body, along with Moses, Joseph Smith, Noah, Peter, James, John, even Adam, and all of them together preached something that was directly contrary to what Jesus Christ Himself taught as His doctrine, then I would still only trust and follow what the Savior taught, and disregard all the rest as trusting in the arm of flesh.

3 Nephi 11 states clearly what the doctrine of Christ is, from Christ's own lips. He was the one who said that anything added to or taken away would not be His doctrine, and would come of evil. All of the arm of flesh (even truly great men and prophets) is as nothing beside the Lord. He cannot lie.
Perhaps you are misinterpreting what the Lord means with his words. This is his doctrine in that all people must follow this path through these steps. We shouldn't take away or add to these steps in order to come unto him. He also asks us to follow his commandments, and receive the Priesthood blessings which he desires to give us (through temple ordinances). So what would you call all his teachings in the Sermon on the Mount? Are those commandments part of his doctrine or not?
He also didn't recite the 10 commandments when he was outlining his doctrine, like you mentioned he didn't reiterate the beatitudes either. Yet I don't believe the Savior was tripping over his words, or misspeaking. My conclusion is that no, commandments do not equal doctrine.

My thinking is that it is very important that the Savior equates belief and repentance with each other when outlining the doctrine. What would we have to repent of, if there were no commandments? So while there is no part of the doctrine that says we must obey commandments to qualify for salvation, there is a requirement for repentance. I think this underlines that it is by grace we are saved, not through dead works of obeying commandments, at least that's the way I read it.

User avatar
Redpilled Mormon
captain of 100
Posts: 664

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:04 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:01 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:32 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:27 pm

Let's play your game, even though you know very well I never called Joseph or Nephi liars, nor did I contradict them.

But ok, let's play it out. If Nephi and Joseph are liars... so what, we trust in God. The universe hangs together just fine with or without Joseph and Nephi telling the truth.

On the other hand, if God is a liar, then the very universe cannot be, and all flies apart. But God cannot lie, and He is not a liar. Which is why I recommend you stop disregarding what He said on this matter. I realize that is a difficult ask, if you're deep in cognitive dissonance and steeped in clinging to the arm of flesh, but it's the only path that doesn't lead to destruction imo.
I have disregarded nothing. You have chosen to ignore God's word.
Many, many times I have ignored God's word, that much is very true. I am a very sinful man, but at least I am aware of that fact.

On the other hand, you maintain you have 'disregarded nothing'. That's the exact attitude of pride which exemplifies why pride may just be the worst of the vices, and leads to self-blindness and destruction.

I realize you're just trolling, which is fine, but at the end of the day the Doctrine of Christ strikes me as a pretty important topic. To completely ignore what Christ Himself said about His own doctrine seems to me to be a foolish decision.
No one is ignoring this as you claim. People simply realize that all scriptures should be read together, which you refuse to do.
I think it's pretty clear you've ignored what Christ said in 3 Nephi 11, at least up to this point in the discussion. But hey maybe I'm wrong. So enlighten me with your cogent and logical explanation of how Christ could definitively say what the doctrine was, and that adding to or taking away from what He'd said came of evil, yet somehow there's lots of other parts of the doctrine that Christ just forgot to mention there. Was He just really forgetful that day, and somehow spaced out all the other parts of the doctrine that He should have said?

User avatar
Sarah
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6708

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Sarah »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:16 pm
Sarah wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:35 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 3:39 pm
Sarah wrote: July 29th, 2022, 8:06 am
Paul also told the people to follow him, and he said a lot of things that weren't part of the doctrine of Christ. Does that make him not an apostle, unworthy to baptize and lay hands on people? Does that make everyone that listens to Paul not a true disciple?

If Paul himself appeared before me in a resurrected body, along with Moses, Joseph Smith, Noah, Peter, James, John, even Adam, and all of them together preached something that was directly contrary to what Jesus Christ Himself taught as His doctrine, then I would still only trust and follow what the Savior taught, and disregard all the rest as trusting in the arm of flesh.

3 Nephi 11 states clearly what the doctrine of Christ is, from Christ's own lips. He was the one who said that anything added to or taken away would not be His doctrine, and would come of evil. All of the arm of flesh (even truly great men and prophets) is as nothing beside the Lord. He cannot lie.
Perhaps you are misinterpreting what the Lord means with his words. This is his doctrine in that all people must follow this path through these steps. We shouldn't take away or add to these steps in order to come unto him. He also asks us to follow his commandments, and receive the Priesthood blessings which he desires to give us (through temple ordinances). So what would you call all his teachings in the Sermon on the Mount? Are those commandments part of his doctrine or not?
He also didn't recite the 10 commandments when he was outlining his doctrine, like you mentioned he didn't reiterate the beatitudes either. Yet I don't believe the Savior was tripping over his words, or misspeaking. My conclusion is that no, commandments do not equal doctrine.

My thinking is that it is very important that the Savior equates belief and repentance with each other when outlining the doctrine. What would we have to repent of, if there were no commandments? So while there is no part of the doctrine that says we must obey commandments to qualify for salvation, there is a requirement for repentance. I think this underlines that it is by grace we are saved, not through dead works of obeying commandments, at least that's the way I read it.
We are saved by grace indeed, after all we can do to obey God's commandments and repent when we fall short. I don't think Jesus expected his disciples to be perfect like Father right after they started believing and were born again spiritually. That command with all the others he gave are the key to justification and sanctification, because the Holy Ghost cannot dwell in unclean temples.

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Artaxerxes »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:20 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:04 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:01 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:32 pm

I have disregarded nothing. You have chosen to ignore God's word.
Many, many times I have ignored God's word, that much is very true. I am a very sinful man, but at least I am aware of that fact.

On the other hand, you maintain you have 'disregarded nothing'. That's the exact attitude of pride which exemplifies why pride may just be the worst of the vices, and leads to self-blindness and destruction.

I realize you're just trolling, which is fine, but at the end of the day the Doctrine of Christ strikes me as a pretty important topic. To completely ignore what Christ Himself said about His own doctrine seems to me to be a foolish decision.
No one is ignoring this as you claim. People simply realize that all scriptures should be read together, which you refuse to do.
I think it's pretty clear you've ignored what Christ said in 3 Nephi 11, at least up to this point in the discussion. But hey maybe I'm wrong. So enlighten me with your cogent and logical explanation of how Christ could definitively say what the doctrine was, and that adding to or taking away from what He'd said came of evil, yet somehow there's lots of other parts of the doctrine that Christ just forgot to mention there. Was He just really forgetful that day, and somehow spaced out all the other parts of the doctrine that He should have said?
First, we need to see that he did not just say that. His ministry to the Nephites wasn't just three verses. As someone else pointed out, He repeated the Sermon on the Mount. Is that declaring more than His doctrine and therefore of the devil? Even in chapter 11, He says:
Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

He's saying that not being contentious is ALSO part of His doctrine.

So what does He mean in chapter 11?

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

He's saying that this is His doctrine for admission to the kingdom of God, not the entirety of all of His doctrine. All of the scriptures are His doctrine. But the only things required to enter the kingdom of God is to believe (other passages indicate that this belief must be unto repentance) and baptism.

User avatar
Shawn Henry
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4514

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Shawn Henry »

Luke wrote: March 25th, 2020, 3:27 pm Read Isaiah 51:9-10. Jehovah speaks to the Davidic Servant and calls him the one who divided the waters for Moses
The more literal interpretation would be that Moses is being identified as the Davidic Servant, but I don't imagine you an MMP believer.

User avatar
John Tavner
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4154

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by John Tavner »

Sarah wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:29 pm
John Tavner wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:02 pm
Sarah wrote: July 29th, 2022, 8:06 am
Amonhi wrote: July 29th, 2022, 7:08 am
The messengers in the scriptures taught the Gospel which tells people that the Holy Ghost will tell them all things to do. They tell people to not trust in the arm of flesh but to put their trust in the spirit. They teach that anyone whom the Lord calls directly can speak for the Lord, even when they are not sustained or recognized by the church or group.(Like how Jesus was called.) They, even the Lord directly several times in the D&C teach that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is faith, Repentance, baptism and then comes the Holy Ghost. The prophets and the Lord in the scriptures tell us that these principles are the doctrines of Christ and there is no other doctrine until he visits us in the flesh. They tells us to that to add to or take away from these doctrines and call it Christ's doctrine comes of evil and opens the gates of hell. The Scriptures teach repeatedly that the fulness of the Ghost of Jesus Christ is found in the Book of Mormon as taught by Christ.

The church teaches to follow your leaders especially the prophet and that if your personal revelation contradicts the teachings of the church, then you trust the church and the prophet over the Holy Ghost. They teach a distorted Gospel which Jesus specifically said comes of evil and opens the gates of hell. They teach that the fulness of the Gospel is found in the Book of Mormon indirectly, but not taught completely by anyone specifically.

Now, I've shown in the scriptures exactly what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is and all of the doctrines that are accepted by the Father, the son and the Holy Ghost. I've shown that to teach more or less than this as Christ's doctrine and Gospel comes of evil and opens the gates of hell.

Can you tell me that the church does not teach more than these principles as the doctrine of Christ?

Peace,
Amonhi
Paul also told the people to follow him, and he said a lot of things that weren't part of the doctrine of Christ. Does that make him not an apostle, unworthy to baptize and lay hands on people? Does that make everyone that listens to Paul not a true disciple?

Church leaders are fallible and give their advice sometimes. God also gives commandments in addition to faith, baptism, repentance, Holy Ghost. You need commandments to know what to repent of. Be ye therefore perfect and all those things Jesus Preached. They are commandments in addition to the basics. When it comes to church activities and things like that, God cares more about whether we are united with each other than what the details of the decision are.
Paul was saying follow him as he followed Christ - meaning he was saying he was an example - showing that it was possible to follow Christ.
I agree with that and feel that is the attitude of our apostles. They know they are giving us the will of the Lord anytime they feel he has communicated with them what His will is for the entire church.
I might agree, but Paul taught that we can be perfect through Christ, that we are righteous through Christ and that we are holy and blameless through Christ. He taught that we should no longer consider ourselves sinners, but Saints and that we should put off self-seeking, anger, frustration etc etc... There isn't too much from the Apostles on that. Paul taught that the grace of God can overcome all things, Paul taught that we can be like Christ in THIS life. I don't hear too much of that. Paul was saying "Look, I've been able to follow Christ, that He lives in me, and that God wants to manifest Himself through you too, like He is me. I've learned to be content in whatever situation I'm in, just like Christ - you can too, you must believe, so stop thinking that works save you, it is Christ that saves you, and then as you Know God and His love, you will be guided in all understanding in what to do."

THe messages today are pretty bland and teach that Christ isn't enough - they don't say it, but it is implied in that we need to always "do more." There 100% needs to be change, but doing more doesn't offer that change. It is only in becoming as a little child and letting God work in us, believing He will that we change. We lack belief. In fact Unbelief is probably the biggest curse of our generation and among CHristians in general. Christians are so sin conscious that htey don't recognize and accept the state of Righteousness that Christ gives them... just because they believe. Then you have people who abuse it by believing they can do what they want, but grace without change is of the devil and they just reject it entirely, not believing they can be like Christ in this life - that is relegated to "special ones" yet we are only limited by our belief. Part of the problem too is our unhealthy obsession with prophets and our wrong thinking about htem. We think they are some "special cadre" of humanity, when the reality is that God has called us all to that mission, we just don't believe. None of that is taught by the 12, in fact the way they portray themselves today is intended to create separation - Standing for them when they enter a room, not leaving until they leave, people fawning over them and them not correcting it. It is unhealthy. Respect for those in leadership is good, but respect is not separation, it is something we ought to give all people.

User avatar
Redpilled Mormon
captain of 100
Posts: 664

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:43 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:20 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:04 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:01 pm

Many, many times I have ignored God's word, that much is very true. I am a very sinful man, but at least I am aware of that fact.

On the other hand, you maintain you have 'disregarded nothing'. That's the exact attitude of pride which exemplifies why pride may just be the worst of the vices, and leads to self-blindness and destruction.

I realize you're just trolling, which is fine, but at the end of the day the Doctrine of Christ strikes me as a pretty important topic. To completely ignore what Christ Himself said about His own doctrine seems to me to be a foolish decision.
No one is ignoring this as you claim. People simply realize that all scriptures should be read together, which you refuse to do.
I think it's pretty clear you've ignored what Christ said in 3 Nephi 11, at least up to this point in the discussion. But hey maybe I'm wrong. So enlighten me with your cogent and logical explanation of how Christ could definitively say what the doctrine was, and that adding to or taking away from what He'd said came of evil, yet somehow there's lots of other parts of the doctrine that Christ just forgot to mention there. Was He just really forgetful that day, and somehow spaced out all the other parts of the doctrine that He should have said?
First, we need to see that he did not just say that. His ministry to the Nephites wasn't just three verses. As someone else pointed out, He repeated the Sermon on the Mount. Is that declaring more than His doctrine and therefore of the devil? Even in chapter 11, He says:
Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

He's saying that not being contentious is ALSO part of His doctrine.

So what does He mean in chapter 11?

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

He's saying that this is His doctrine for admission to the kingdom of God, not the entirety of all of His doctrine. All of the scriptures are His doctrine. But the only things required to enter the kingdom of God is to believe (other passages indicate that this belief must be unto repentance) and baptism.
Yeah, I just can't get on board with the whole 'Jesus just dont speak English too gud' scenario, where the living God fumbles his words and needs the help of modern-day 'prophets' to bat cleanup and untangle his meanings to show that clearly He didn't actually mean what He said.

In simple well-structured grammatical English spells out what exactly His doctrine is, starting in verse 31, then finishes up verse 40 leaving no doubt that that is the whole/full/total doctrine, and anyone who tries to sell any other line of bs ought to be cast aside:

"40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them."

So I don't get how anyone who believes the Book of Mormon is actual scripture and not just Joseph Smith fakery, can reason that it's ok to add a bunch of new stuff into the mix and claim it's just 'newly revealed parts of the doctrine we're learning about line upon line, precept upon precept'.

As far as I can see, there's only one ordinance involved: baptism. Even taking the sacrament isn't listed.

Does that mean taking the sacrament is wrong or bad? Heck no, we have Moroni later giving us detailed descriptions of how to administer the sacrament.

But it isn't listed as a required part of Christ's doctrine. Just belief/repentance (which the way it's structured seems these are part of the same thing) and baptism. Then as a follow up if those 2 things are done, it makes it clear the Father will definitely visit with fire and with the Holy Ghost (the way it's written with an 'and' makes me suspect these are 2 different things, but maybe it's the same thing with 2 different descriptions, like I think belief/repentance is). I can't help but notice it doesn't suggest an ordinance administered by men, but rather almost like a natural law consequence of adhering to the belief/repentance and baptism requirements, the Father will follow up with the fire/Holy Ghost portion.

So yeah, there's lots of other stuff Christ taught that are good things to do, commandments to follow, etc, but nothing else other than what He outlines in those verses are part of his doctrine. They are good things (like sacrament), but that doesn't make them doctrine.

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Artaxerxes »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 10:56 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:43 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:20 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:04 pm

No one is ignoring this as you claim. People simply realize that all scriptures should be read together, which you refuse to do.
I think it's pretty clear you've ignored what Christ said in 3 Nephi 11, at least up to this point in the discussion. But hey maybe I'm wrong. So enlighten me with your cogent and logical explanation of how Christ could definitively say what the doctrine was, and that adding to or taking away from what He'd said came of evil, yet somehow there's lots of other parts of the doctrine that Christ just forgot to mention there. Was He just really forgetful that day, and somehow spaced out all the other parts of the doctrine that He should have said?
First, we need to see that he did not just say that. His ministry to the Nephites wasn't just three verses. As someone else pointed out, He repeated the Sermon on the Mount. Is that declaring more than His doctrine and therefore of the devil? Even in chapter 11, He says:
Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

He's saying that not being contentious is ALSO part of His doctrine.

So what does He mean in chapter 11?

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

He's saying that this is His doctrine for admission to the kingdom of God, not the entirety of all of His doctrine. All of the scriptures are His doctrine. But the only things required to enter the kingdom of God is to believe (other passages indicate that this belief must be unto repentance) and baptism.
Yeah, I just can't get on board with the whole 'Jesus just dont speak English too gud' scenario, where the living God fumbles his words and needs the help of modern-day 'prophets' to bat cleanup and untangle his meanings to show that clearly He didn't actually mean what He said.

In simple well-structured grammatical English spells out what exactly His doctrine is, starting in verse 31, then finishes up verse 40 leaving no doubt that that is the whole/full/total doctrine, and anyone who tries to sell any other line of bs ought to be cast aside:

"40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them."

So I don't get how anyone who believes the Book of Mormon is actual scripture and not just Joseph Smith fakery, can reason that it's ok to add a bunch of new stuff into the mix and claim it's just 'newly revealed parts of the doctrine we're learning about line upon line, precept upon precept'.

As far as I can see, there's only one ordinance involved: baptism. Even taking the sacrament isn't listed.

Does that mean taking the sacrament is wrong or bad? Heck no, we have Moroni later giving us detailed descriptions of how to administer the sacrament.

But it isn't listed as a required part of Christ's doctrine. Just belief/repentance (which the way it's structured seems these are part of the same thing) and baptism. Then as a follow up if those 2 things are done, it makes it clear the Father will definitely visit with fire and with the Holy Ghost (the way it's written with an 'and' makes me suspect these are 2 different things, but maybe it's the same thing with 2 different descriptions, like I think belief/repentance is). I can't help but notice it doesn't suggest an ordinance administered by men, but rather almost like a natural law consequence of adhering to the belief/repentance and baptism requirements, the Father will follow up with the fire/Holy Ghost portion.

So yeah, there's lots of other stuff Christ taught that are good things to do, commandments to follow, etc, but nothing else other than what He outlines in those verses are part of his doctrine. They are good things (like sacrament), but that doesn't make them doctrine.
So Jesus commanded something, the sacrament, but it's not doctrine?

Post Reply