Yup.Artaxerxes wrote: ↑July 29th, 2022, 11:27 pmSo Jesus commanded something, the sacrament, but it's not doctrine?Redpilled Mormon wrote: ↑July 29th, 2022, 10:56 pmYeah, I just can't get on board with the whole 'Jesus just dont speak English too gud' scenario, where the living God fumbles his words and needs the help of modern-day 'prophets' to bat cleanup and untangle his meanings to show that clearly He didn't actually mean what He said.Artaxerxes wrote: ↑July 29th, 2022, 5:43 pmFirst, we need to see that he did not just say that. His ministry to the Nephites wasn't just three verses. As someone else pointed out, He repeated the Sermon on the Mount. Is that declaring more than His doctrine and therefore of the devil? Even in chapter 11, He says:Redpilled Mormon wrote: ↑July 29th, 2022, 5:20 pm
I think it's pretty clear you've ignored what Christ said in 3 Nephi 11, at least up to this point in the discussion. But hey maybe I'm wrong. So enlighten me with your cogent and logical explanation of how Christ could definitively say what the doctrine was, and that adding to or taking away from what He'd said came of evil, yet somehow there's lots of other parts of the doctrine that Christ just forgot to mention there. Was He just really forgetful that day, and somehow spaced out all the other parts of the doctrine that He should have said?
Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.
He's saying that not being contentious is ALSO part of His doctrine.
So what does He mean in chapter 11?
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
He's saying that this is His doctrine for admission to the kingdom of God, not the entirety of all of His doctrine. All of the scriptures are His doctrine. But the only things required to enter the kingdom of God is to believe (other passages indicate that this belief must be unto repentance) and baptism.
In simple well-structured grammatical English spells out what exactly His doctrine is, starting in verse 31, then finishes up verse 40 leaving no doubt that that is the whole/full/total doctrine, and anyone who tries to sell any other line of bs ought to be cast aside:
"40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them."
So I don't get how anyone who believes the Book of Mormon is actual scripture and not just Joseph Smith fakery, can reason that it's ok to add a bunch of new stuff into the mix and claim it's just 'newly revealed parts of the doctrine we're learning about line upon line, precept upon precept'.
As far as I can see, there's only one ordinance involved: baptism. Even taking the sacrament isn't listed.
Does that mean taking the sacrament is wrong or bad? Heck no, we have Moroni later giving us detailed descriptions of how to administer the sacrament.
But it isn't listed as a required part of Christ's doctrine. Just belief/repentance (which the way it's structured seems these are part of the same thing) and baptism. Then as a follow up if those 2 things are done, it makes it clear the Father will definitely visit with fire and with the Holy Ghost (the way it's written with an 'and' makes me suspect these are 2 different things, but maybe it's the same thing with 2 different descriptions, like I think belief/repentance is). I can't help but notice it doesn't suggest an ordinance administered by men, but rather almost like a natural law consequence of adhering to the belief/repentance and baptism requirements, the Father will follow up with the fire/Holy Ghost portion.
So yeah, there's lots of other stuff Christ taught that are good things to do, commandments to follow, etc, but nothing else other than what He outlines in those verses are part of his doctrine. They are good things (like sacrament), but that doesn't make them doctrine.
He spelled out what His doctrine was, and explicitly stated anything else was not it.
Though I'm blanking on when/where Christ commanded the sacrament, so maybe sacrament isn't a commandment. Someone will remind me of a verse to confirm one way or the other.