Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 11:27 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 10:56 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:43 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:20 pm

I think it's pretty clear you've ignored what Christ said in 3 Nephi 11, at least up to this point in the discussion. But hey maybe I'm wrong. So enlighten me with your cogent and logical explanation of how Christ could definitively say what the doctrine was, and that adding to or taking away from what He'd said came of evil, yet somehow there's lots of other parts of the doctrine that Christ just forgot to mention there. Was He just really forgetful that day, and somehow spaced out all the other parts of the doctrine that He should have said?
First, we need to see that he did not just say that. His ministry to the Nephites wasn't just three verses. As someone else pointed out, He repeated the Sermon on the Mount. Is that declaring more than His doctrine and therefore of the devil? Even in chapter 11, He says:
Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

He's saying that not being contentious is ALSO part of His doctrine.

So what does He mean in chapter 11?

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

He's saying that this is His doctrine for admission to the kingdom of God, not the entirety of all of His doctrine. All of the scriptures are His doctrine. But the only things required to enter the kingdom of God is to believe (other passages indicate that this belief must be unto repentance) and baptism.
Yeah, I just can't get on board with the whole 'Jesus just dont speak English too gud' scenario, where the living God fumbles his words and needs the help of modern-day 'prophets' to bat cleanup and untangle his meanings to show that clearly He didn't actually mean what He said.

In simple well-structured grammatical English spells out what exactly His doctrine is, starting in verse 31, then finishes up verse 40 leaving no doubt that that is the whole/full/total doctrine, and anyone who tries to sell any other line of bs ought to be cast aside:

"40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them."

So I don't get how anyone who believes the Book of Mormon is actual scripture and not just Joseph Smith fakery, can reason that it's ok to add a bunch of new stuff into the mix and claim it's just 'newly revealed parts of the doctrine we're learning about line upon line, precept upon precept'.

As far as I can see, there's only one ordinance involved: baptism. Even taking the sacrament isn't listed.

Does that mean taking the sacrament is wrong or bad? Heck no, we have Moroni later giving us detailed descriptions of how to administer the sacrament.

But it isn't listed as a required part of Christ's doctrine. Just belief/repentance (which the way it's structured seems these are part of the same thing) and baptism. Then as a follow up if those 2 things are done, it makes it clear the Father will definitely visit with fire and with the Holy Ghost (the way it's written with an 'and' makes me suspect these are 2 different things, but maybe it's the same thing with 2 different descriptions, like I think belief/repentance is). I can't help but notice it doesn't suggest an ordinance administered by men, but rather almost like a natural law consequence of adhering to the belief/repentance and baptism requirements, the Father will follow up with the fire/Holy Ghost portion.

So yeah, there's lots of other stuff Christ taught that are good things to do, commandments to follow, etc, but nothing else other than what He outlines in those verses are part of his doctrine. They are good things (like sacrament), but that doesn't make them doctrine.
So Jesus commanded something, the sacrament, but it's not doctrine?
Yup.

He spelled out what His doctrine was, and explicitly stated anything else was not it.

Though I'm blanking on when/where Christ commanded the sacrament, so maybe sacrament isn't a commandment. Someone will remind me of a verse to confirm one way or the other.

Artaxerxes
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Posts: 2298

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Artaxerxes »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 11:50 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 11:27 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 10:56 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:43 pm

First, we need to see that he did not just say that. His ministry to the Nephites wasn't just three verses. As someone else pointed out, He repeated the Sermon on the Mount. Is that declaring more than His doctrine and therefore of the devil? Even in chapter 11, He says:
Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

He's saying that not being contentious is ALSO part of His doctrine.

So what does He mean in chapter 11?

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

He's saying that this is His doctrine for admission to the kingdom of God, not the entirety of all of His doctrine. All of the scriptures are His doctrine. But the only things required to enter the kingdom of God is to believe (other passages indicate that this belief must be unto repentance) and baptism.
Yeah, I just can't get on board with the whole 'Jesus just dont speak English too gud' scenario, where the living God fumbles his words and needs the help of modern-day 'prophets' to bat cleanup and untangle his meanings to show that clearly He didn't actually mean what He said.

In simple well-structured grammatical English spells out what exactly His doctrine is, starting in verse 31, then finishes up verse 40 leaving no doubt that that is the whole/full/total doctrine, and anyone who tries to sell any other line of bs ought to be cast aside:

"40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them."

So I don't get how anyone who believes the Book of Mormon is actual scripture and not just Joseph Smith fakery, can reason that it's ok to add a bunch of new stuff into the mix and claim it's just 'newly revealed parts of the doctrine we're learning about line upon line, precept upon precept'.

As far as I can see, there's only one ordinance involved: baptism. Even taking the sacrament isn't listed.

Does that mean taking the sacrament is wrong or bad? Heck no, we have Moroni later giving us detailed descriptions of how to administer the sacrament.

But it isn't listed as a required part of Christ's doctrine. Just belief/repentance (which the way it's structured seems these are part of the same thing) and baptism. Then as a follow up if those 2 things are done, it makes it clear the Father will definitely visit with fire and with the Holy Ghost (the way it's written with an 'and' makes me suspect these are 2 different things, but maybe it's the same thing with 2 different descriptions, like I think belief/repentance is). I can't help but notice it doesn't suggest an ordinance administered by men, but rather almost like a natural law consequence of adhering to the belief/repentance and baptism requirements, the Father will follow up with the fire/Holy Ghost portion.

So yeah, there's lots of other stuff Christ taught that are good things to do, commandments to follow, etc, but nothing else other than what He outlines in those verses are part of his doctrine. They are good things (like sacrament), but that doesn't make them doctrine.
So Jesus commanded something, the sacrament, but it's not doctrine?
Yup.

He spelled out what His doctrine was, and explicitly stated anything else was not it.

Though I'm blanking on when/where Christ commanded the sacrament, so maybe sacrament isn't a commandment. Someone will remind me of a verse to confirm one way or the other.
3 Ne 18:6

Most people consider commandments to be part of doctrine. So what are they?

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Redpilled Mormon
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Posts: 664

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 11:53 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 11:50 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 11:27 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 10:56 pm

Yeah, I just can't get on board with the whole 'Jesus just dont speak English too gud' scenario, where the living God fumbles his words and needs the help of modern-day 'prophets' to bat cleanup and untangle his meanings to show that clearly He didn't actually mean what He said.

In simple well-structured grammatical English spells out what exactly His doctrine is, starting in verse 31, then finishes up verse 40 leaving no doubt that that is the whole/full/total doctrine, and anyone who tries to sell any other line of bs ought to be cast aside:

"40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them."

So I don't get how anyone who believes the Book of Mormon is actual scripture and not just Joseph Smith fakery, can reason that it's ok to add a bunch of new stuff into the mix and claim it's just 'newly revealed parts of the doctrine we're learning about line upon line, precept upon precept'.

As far as I can see, there's only one ordinance involved: baptism. Even taking the sacrament isn't listed.

Does that mean taking the sacrament is wrong or bad? Heck no, we have Moroni later giving us detailed descriptions of how to administer the sacrament.

But it isn't listed as a required part of Christ's doctrine. Just belief/repentance (which the way it's structured seems these are part of the same thing) and baptism. Then as a follow up if those 2 things are done, it makes it clear the Father will definitely visit with fire and with the Holy Ghost (the way it's written with an 'and' makes me suspect these are 2 different things, but maybe it's the same thing with 2 different descriptions, like I think belief/repentance is). I can't help but notice it doesn't suggest an ordinance administered by men, but rather almost like a natural law consequence of adhering to the belief/repentance and baptism requirements, the Father will follow up with the fire/Holy Ghost portion.

So yeah, there's lots of other stuff Christ taught that are good things to do, commandments to follow, etc, but nothing else other than what He outlines in those verses are part of his doctrine. They are good things (like sacrament), but that doesn't make them doctrine.
So Jesus commanded something, the sacrament, but it's not doctrine?
Yup.

He spelled out what His doctrine was, and explicitly stated anything else was not it.

Though I'm blanking on when/where Christ commanded the sacrament, so maybe sacrament isn't a commandment. Someone will remind me of a verse to confirm one way or the other.
3 Ne 18:6
Thanks, that confirms commandment status I think, paired with verse 5 before it. All I was coming up with was the scripture where we're supposed to meet together oft etc, which I don't think is specific enough to the sacrament. Of course it's also pretty telling that Moroni takes the time to detail the exact sacrament prayer.
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 11:53 pm
Most people consider commandments to be part of doctrine. So what are they?
They are simply commandments. Obeying the commandments won't keep us from being received by the gates of hell, which is what the Savior explicitly states His doctrine will do for us. We may obey commandments as a result of believing Christ and being repentant, but that's an effect of the doctrine, not a cause, and contains no 'juice' or magic power in and of itself. Christ cannot lie, he told us explicitly anything added to or taken away from his explicitly stated doctrine comes of evil and leads to destruction.

Artaxerxes
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Posts: 2298

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Artaxerxes »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 30th, 2022, 7:45 am
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 11:53 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 11:50 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 11:27 pm

So Jesus commanded something, the sacrament, but it's not doctrine?
Yup.

He spelled out what His doctrine was, and explicitly stated anything else was not it.

Though I'm blanking on when/where Christ commanded the sacrament, so maybe sacrament isn't a commandment. Someone will remind me of a verse to confirm one way or the other.
3 Ne 18:6
Thanks, that confirms commandment status I think, paired with verse 5 before it. All I was coming up with was the scripture where we're supposed to meet together oft etc, which I don't think is specific enough to the sacrament. Of course it's also pretty telling that Moroni takes the time to detail the exact sacrament prayer.
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 11:53 pm
Most people consider commandments to be part of doctrine. So what are they?
They are simply commandments. Obeying the commandments won't keep us from being received by the gates of hell, which is what the Savior explicitly states His doctrine will do for us. We may obey commandments as a result of believing Christ and being repentant, but that's an effect of the doctrine, not a cause, and contains no 'juice' or magic power in and of itself. Christ cannot lie, he told us explicitly anything added to or taken away from his explicitly stated doctrine comes of evil and leads to destruction.
Right. So like I said, his doctrine for admission to kingdom is just that. He taught more than that, and we should too.

Amonhi
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Posts: 4650

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Amonhi »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 10:26 am
Amonhi wrote: July 29th, 2022, 6:45 am
Artaxerxes wrote: July 28th, 2022, 4:11 pm
Amonhi wrote: July 28th, 2022, 3:25 pm
Yes, that is correct. These four things make up the entire gospel of Jesus Christ and they the the only principles and ordinances required for "Salvation". This is what is taught in the scriptures and by Joseph Smith. It is not what is taught in the LDS Church today.

What is currently being pointed out is that the Church today teaches that these 4 things are only the FIRST principles and ordinances of the Gospel and that there is a long list of other principles and ordinances that are part of the doctrine and gospel of Jesus Christ required for salvation.

The church today adds to this short list of doctrines approved by Christ and declares the extended list to be part of his doctrine and gospel. For example, in the principles of the Gospel on the church website, we read,

First off, notice the someone, (Probably Brigham Young since he did this a lot), changed the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith after he died so that the entire church has been misquoting him for years. This is not what he said. It's close to what he said, but the difference between what he said and what we claim he said is major.

Secondly, It lumps the "saving principles and ordinances" with the "exalting principles and ordinances" along with all the doctrines, laws and covenants of the church and says they are all part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. (Flat wrong, comes of evil and opens the gates of hell.)

I think that you can ask any active member of the church to list all of the doctrines, principles and ordinances that they have been taught are part of the doctrine of Christ or the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the great majority of them will include things like tithing, the word of wisdom, priesthood blessings, Temple endowments and sealings and Eternal families, and a long list of things that have nothing to do with the doctrines or Gospel of Jesus Christ.

When I search the churches website for the doctrines of Christ and his gospel I find all sorts of things taught as Christ's doctrine and his Gospel which are wrong.

HERE - President Harold B. Lee is quoted in a modern manual saying that the First principles of the Gospel are faith, repentance, baptism and the Holy Ghost, but the gospel also includes "all of the laws of the Lord" including "to talk with God in prayer", "the Word of Wisdom", "keep the Sabbath day holy", "the law of fasting", "the law of chastity".

HERE - Is a link to the new Testament Seminary Teachers manual where they list various "Basic Doctrines" of the church including Restoration, The Fall, The creation, Marriage and Family, Commandments, and lots of other things. It specifically says, "The Basic Doctrines should be highlighted in both seminary and institute classes. Teachers are to help students identify, understand, believe, explain, and apply these doctrines of the gospel." and Other saving ordinances include ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing (see D&C 131:1–4).

We know from Several sources that the Book of Mormon contains "the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ".

and...

There should be no question that the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is contained in the Book of Mormon, and that it was taught by Jesus Christ specifically.

Well, there are a lot of people trying to explain how it is that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the Gospel and doesn't talk about all the doctrines taught as part of the gospel in the church today.
HERE - Is an article published by the church titled, "Why do we say that the Book of Mormon contains “the fulness of the gospel” (D&C 20:9) when it doesn’t contain some of the basic teachings of the Church? Why doesn’t it include such doctrines as the three degrees of glory, marriage for eternity, premortal existence of spirits, and baptism for the dead?" The author fumbles through quoting scripture after scripture which teaches the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and then tries to explain, that the writers of the Book of Mormon "also understood that their writings would come forth in the last days during a period of unbelief, when the true Church had been taken from the earth. (See 2 Ne. 25:3–23; 2 Ne. 26:16–24; Jacob 4:4, 13–16; Morm. 8:25–35; Moro. 10:24–34.) Thus, their stated purpose was to help lead us to Christ and to the true Church, rather than to provide all the teachings and ordinances of the gospel that we might receive after becoming members of the Church. In other words, the author concludes that the Book of Mormon doesn't contain in it the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but the means to find the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is not contained in the Book of Mormon.

"The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." - LDS Church

The doctrines of Christ which make up the Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by the Church today is "In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us TO BE EXALTED in the celestial kingdom."
  • The First principles and ordinances of the Gospel are:
    • Faith
    • Repentance
    • Baptism
    • The Holy Ghost
  • Other Principles and Ordinances of the Gospel include
    • Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood
    • Endowment
    • Temple sealing
    • Law of Chastity
    • Law of the Sabbath
    • Law of Tithing
    • Word of Wisdom
    • Pre-mortal life
    • Follow the Prophet
    • Etc., Etc., Etc. = A very long list of doctrines and ordinances
Jesus and his prophets said about 8 times in scriptures that his doctrine and gospel are only:
  • Faith
  • Repentance
  • Baptism
  • The Holy Ghost
After teaching this 3 times, they explained that these are the only doctrines accepted by the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost and that to add more or less than these comes of evil and opens the gates of hell to receive such.

Jesus also said that a church is only his church if it is called by his name AND it teaches his gospel without taking away or adding to it.

The LDS Church is called after the name of Christ, but it adds doctrine and ordinances to his Gospel so that it is no longer recognized as his Gospel.

Therefore, the church today is not his church, which is why very, very few members of the LSD church can correctly define the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, even though it is taught repeatedly in the scriptures.

When it was establish by Joseph Smith, the doctrine of the church matched the doctrine of Christ. After Joseph Smith died, Brigham Young and others changed church history, Joseph Smith's writings and journals and other historical documents to say entirely different things, including the Articles of Faith. There are several examples of such changes documented in the thread, "More changes to Church History Confirmed...

Peace,
Amonhi
Yeah, can you imagine Joseph calling them the first principles? Can you imagine he saying something like:

"the first principles of the gospel, which are repentance, and baptism for the remission of sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands."
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ber-1835/2

"The first principles of the gospel as I believe. first Faith. Repentance. Baptism for the remission of sins. with the promise of the Holy Ghost."
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ource-note

I mean, can you even imagine?
Good find. Thank you. I'll be sure to remember that Joseph Smith was the source of that false doctrine which contradicts Nephi, and Jesus in the Book of Mormon and The Lord in the D&C. It isn't the first time he was clearly wrong, and it won't be the last.

Peace
Amonhi
Nope. As always, you guys are wrong.

What Joseph said: Are you done after completing the first principles and ordinances of the gospel? No.

What Nephi said: I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

They are the first and ordinances of the gospel. You guys just need to humble yourself enough to see that the false traditions you have adopted are contrary to the scriptures and the words of the prophets.
I didn't say that we are done after we have received the Gospel. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is all that is needed for Salvation, not eternal life. Eternal life is exaltation. Salvation is the gate by which we enter.

Where does Jesus define his Gospel?
Here..
D&C 39
5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospelrepentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.
and here...
D&C 33
11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;
13 And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.
and here...
D&C 49
1 Hearken unto my word, my servants Sidney, and Parley, and Leman; for behold, verily I say unto you, that I give unto you a commandment that you shall go and preach my gospel which ye have received, even as ye have received it, unto the Shakers.
...
11 Wherefore, I give unto you a commandment that ye go among this people, and say unto them, like unto mine apostle of old, whose name was Peter:
12 Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus, who was on the earth, and is to come, the beginning and the end;
13 Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, according to the holy commandment, for the remission of sins;
14 And whoso doeth this shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, by the laying on of the hands of the elders of the church.
and here...
3 Nephi 27
20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;” –
...and several other places in the scriptures.

Now, in every verse where the Lord said, "this is my gospel", he lists faith in him, repentance, baptism by water and the gift of the Holy Ghost. He doesn't list any other principles or ordinances. He also doesn't say these are the "first principles and ordinances" of my Gospel, he says "THIS is my gospel". He doesn't say anything to indicate that this list is an incomplete or partial list of principles and ordinances that make up his gospel. He tells us repeatedly that THIS is IT, indicating by his words that this is the complete list or fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I don't care if Joseph Smith or anyone else said that this list an incomplete, partial list of principles and ordinances that make up the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus repeatedly said it is a complete list called his gospel which encompasses all of his doctrines. Now, Joseph Smith and the church call this a list of "principles and ordinances", but Jesus and Nephi say this list is called "doctrines". The only reason to call this point out is that there are countless principles and ordinances, but there are only 4 doctrines accepted by the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost as "doctrine". And these 4 doctrines match up identically to the 4 points that make up the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Where does it say these are the only doctrines accepted as true by the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost?
Here...
2 Nephi 31 - Nephi quotes the words of Christ and teaches the doctrine of Christ several times and then says...
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
and here...
3 Nephi 32
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.
and again here...

BUT, before I quote this next reference in its entirety I want to call out the important background that caused Jesus to make these comments. In this next reference, Jesus speaking to a group of people who are arguing about what his doctrine includes and does not include, (JUST LIKE SOME OF US ON THIS FORUM ARE DOING, so he's speaking directly to us about the exact topic we are discussing right now). He tells us that there is no reason to argue or debate about what his doctrine is because he is going to tell us EXACTLY what it includes and what it does not include. He starts by telling us that he is going to tell us his doctrine, then he says, "this is my doctrine" and then he repeats his doctrine 3 times and tells us that he is teaching it "again" and "again". Then, after repeating it 3 times he ends by telling us that he just told us his doctrine. And finally so that there is absolutely no question or confusion on the topic, to stop all "disputations" regarding what is part of his doctrine, and in an effort to finally end the very debate we are having right now, he says, NOTHING more or less than this is considered my doctrine. Here is the entire reference.
3 Nephi 11
28 And according as I have commanded you thus shall ye baptize. And there shall be no disputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been.
29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.
30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.
31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.
37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things ("these things" means The baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost received after repentance and baptism mentioned in verse 35).
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
Why are we still disputing what Jesus himself declared to be his doctrine, all of his doctrine and nothing but his doctrine when he did so to end all disputes regarding his doctrine? His doctrine and gospel doesn't include tithing or the Word of Wisdom, or the law of Chastity or eternal families. These things might be true principles, but they are not doctrines of Christ and they are not part of his gospel. 1+1 = 2 is also true, but it isn't part of the doctrine and Gospel of Jesus Christ. His doctrine and gospel doesn't include Temple Sealings or endowments or healings or casting out devils. These might be true ordinances, but are still not part of the doctrine and Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Faith, repentance, baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost which tells us all things we should do are the only points of doctrine and are all of the points of doctrine that Jesus lumped together every time he said, "THIS IS MY GOSPEL". They are not the FIRST principles and ordinances of his gospel. They are the ONLY principles and ordinances of his gospel, the whole thing! All of his individual doctrines combined are called his gospel or the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Why does this not make sense to everyone, when he couldn't possibly have been more clear is teaching his doctrine?
  • I'll answer this rhetorical question with the real reason why. It's because the church hasn't been teaching his doctrine correctly and so most members don't know what his doctrine is or what his Gospel is. So people like me who were raised and taught in the church from birth are confused and shocked when we realize what the Lord repeatedly says exactly what his gospel and doctrine actually is.
I don't care if Joseph Smith or President Nelson or the entire church says that there are thousands of doctrines of Christ. I don't care if they say that faith, repentance, baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost are only the FIRST principles and ordinances that make up his Gospel. IF THEY ADD EVEN ONE MORE PRINCIPLE OR ORDINANCE to that list of approved doctrines that make up the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then they are teaching false doctrine which is not his gospel.

When the angel Moroni told Joseph Smith about the Book of Mormon, he explained two reasons for reading the book. (see JSH 1:34)
  • It gave "account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang."
  • "He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;"
The Book of Mormon has the fulness of the Gospel as taught by Jesus Christ and in it he didn't teach about the endowment or eternal marriage, or tithing or chastity, or smoking, or obeying your leaders, or basic math or a great number of things.

On Oct. 29th 1831, the Lord said to William E. McLellin that he was blessed because he had received the Fulness of the Gospel, (D&C 66:2). The temple wasn't built, the word of wisdom wasn't revealed, the revelation on tithing hadn't been received, etc. Yet, the lord said this man was already blessed for receiving the fulness of the Gospel.

And look at the instruction given by the Lord on February 9 and 23, 1831, before tithing, temples, the word of wisdom, calling and election and a great number of other revelations were given...
D&C 42
12 And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel.
13 And they shall observe the covenants and church articles to do them, and these shall be their teachings, as they shall be directed by the Spirit.
14 And the Spirit shall be given unto you by the prayer of faith; and if ye receive not the Spirit ye shall not teach.
How can they teach principles and ordinances that they have not yet received? Obviously they can't. But they can teach the principles of the gospel because the fulness of the Gospel is contained in the Book of Mormon, which also does not talk about things not revealed until after 1831.

Some people say that the Gospel of Jesus Christ encompasses every principle of truth that can be discovered. Jesus said, no it doesn't, it only includes these few truths. It doesn't matter how true or universally applicable or important you think a thing is, it isn't part of the Gospel if it isn't in that list. It doesn't matter if it is taught by Joseph Smith or Nelson or the church. If it isn't a doctrine of Christ, then it isn't part of his gospel and he told us exactly which truths are.

Jesus knows his gospel a lot better than the church and apparently better than Joseph Smith. Yes, as much as I admire Joseph, he was sometimes wrong, and this is without a doubt one of those times. And yes, I think Jesus trumps Joseph Smith in regard to the topic of what is and what is not the Gospel of JESUS CHRIST. If Joseph Smith wants to declare his own gospel, he can go right ahead and do it and we can call it the Gospel of Joseph Smith. But, if the church calls itself Christ church and teaches the gospel of Joseph Smith then it isn't really his Christ's church is it?

Now, can we finally put that to bed and align ourselves with the words of the Lord in the scriptures and realize that any man who is teaching more or less than this short list of doctrines and calling it the gospel of Jesus Christ doesn't actually know what he's talking about and is teaching doctrines and a gospel that comes of evil and opens the gate of hell to receive people. I know I just ruined General Conference for some of you because now you're going to hear every time they are talking about the gospel of Jesus Christ and teaching all sorts of false doctrine as if it were Christ's doctrine. (Like Sarah said, men are men and they make mistakes, I know.)

Perhaps you should ask when is a teaching or doctrine no longer the idea of an individual man making a mistake? When do we say that a Church itself has begun teaching false doctrine to the point that it is no longer recognized as Christ's church? Does it happen when the President of the Church teaches false doctrine or when 50% of the members of the Church teach false doctrine? Where is the line we draw that says, "This is no longer the Church of Jesus Christ because it is not built on the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Might I submit that if the formalized, documented, published and preached, core, fundamental, basic doctrines and practices of a church are not inline with the doctrines of Christ, which he called his gospel, then that church is not his church. This is recommendation comes from what Jesus Christ said regarding his church.
3 Nephi 27
8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.
9 Verily I say unto you, that ye are built upon my gospel; therefore ye shall call whatsoever things ye do call, in my name; therefore if ye call upon the Father, for the church, if it be in my name the Father will hear you;
10 And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it.
11 But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.
This means that if a church teaches more or less than his doctrine as part of the fundamental Gospel they preach or if they teach anything counter to his doctrine, then it is not his church.

What would be an example a teaching that is counter to his doctrine?
  • Well, he said that the whole point of the gift of the Holy Ghost is that it will teach you all things and show you all things that you should do.
  • A teaching that is counter to the doctrine of Christ is to say that the leader of the church will teach you ANYTHING or show you ANYTHING that you should do. Yeah, that's right. If the Holy Ghost is supposed to teach us ALL THINGS, then what is left to be taught from our leaders? If the Holy Ghost is supposed to show us ALL THINGS that we should do, then what remains that our leaders can show us? If a leader teaches and expects us to learn from them or follow them, without the explicit witness from the Holy Ghost that what they are saying or telling us to do is God's will, then they are teaching contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, even if they teach all of the points of his doctrine.
Ok, so, then what are the formalized, documented, published and preached, core, fundamental, basic doctrines and practices of the LDS Church?

We call them the Articles of Faith. What do they say?
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Well, in the English language, we don't say something is first if there isn't a second. It is implicit in this statement that there are more principles and ordinances of the Gospel which are not included in the short list provided. I offer up that there is a simple and effective solution to this statement but I also want to point out that the Church and its members would reject this simple and effective solution. Here is the one word change that would immediately make the formalized, documented, published and preached, core, fundamental, basic doctrines and practices of the church aligned with the doctrine and Gospel of Jesus Christ.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the ONLY principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Like I said, the church would flip over such a change. It would create confusion and chaos and the members would wonder, like you Artaxerxes, what does that mean? Does that mean that we are all done progressing as soon as we receive the Holy Ghost? What about all the other stuff?

Here is how you asked this question rhetorically.
Artaxerxes wrote:Are you done after completing the first principles and ordinances of the gospel? No.
Let me correct your question so that it is aligned with the teachings of Christ,

"Are we done after completing the ONLY principles and ordinances of the Gospel?"

No, of course not. But that doesn't mean that any other principles and ordinances are part of "the Gospel of Jesus Christ" or accepted as part of his "only and true doctrine". 1+1=2 is true, but it isn't part of his gospel either.

Let's walk through this in real life to see what is happening here:
Until we receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost we remain outside of the gate/unsaved not having received the remission of our sins. While outside of the gate, we are not living the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we are still living the Preparatory Gospel. We aren't saved, we haven't had a remission of our sins, we can't hear the Lord's voice because we don't have the spirit. In this state, the Lord calls us "wicked", fallen man, telestial, etc.
(Just like Adam after the fall.)

When we receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, we have entered in at the gate and have been saved. Our sins are remitted which makes us sinless and worthy of the Holy Ghost, which is the voice of God. Now that we can hear his voice we are considered his sheep. At this point we have started living the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We have received a remission of our sins, we have entered the kingdom of God, we have been saved, and we can hear his voice. (Just like Adam in the garden of Eden before the fall. In other words, we have been saved from the fall.) In this state, the Lord calls us "righteous", saved man, terrestrial, etc. We have passed through the gate are now standing at the beginning of the path that leads to eternal life.
  • Are we done?
    • No. After we begin living the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we see there is a gate behind us that we just came through and a path in front of us we haven't traveled yet and at the end of the path is eternal life. We have only just taken hold of the iron rod which is the word of God through the Holy Ghost to us directly. If we let go of the iron rod, (which means stop letting the Holy Ghost/word of God teach us all things and show us all things that we should do), then we will walk off the path and never reach eternal life which is at the end of the path. At this point, we need to start walking the path that leads to eternal life. We could not possible walk the path that leads to eternal life without first having accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ because walking the path requires us to follow the Holy Ghost. If we are not being taught all things by the Holy Ghost and being shown all things that we should do by the Holy Ghost, then we aren't walking the path that leads to eternal life. We are off the path that leads to eternal life because only the Holy Ghost can show us the path.
  • Are we saved back into the Terrestrial State?
    • Yes, "salvation" has happened the moment we entered in at the gate and received the remission of our sins via the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.
  • Are we Exalted back into a Celestial State?
    • No. We are on the path that leads to eternal life and exaltation is eternal life at the end of the path when we are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise to eternal life which makes make our calling and election sure.
  • Is the Gospel of Jesus Christ everything that we need to be saved?
    • Yes.
  • Is the Gospel of Jesus Christ everything we need to be exalted?
    • No. The Holy Ghost will teach us all things and show us all things that we need to do to be exalted.
  • Other than faith, repentance, Baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, are there any other principles or ordinances that are part of the gospel of Jesus Christ?
    • No. Jesus was VERY Clear on this the several times that he told us exactly what his gospel is, and the several times that he said that these are the only doctrines he has and teaching more or less than these as his doctrine comes of evil and opens the gates of hell.
  • What about when we are sealed by the holy Spirit of promise and make our Calling and election sure? Are we done then?
    • No, we keep progressing and learning and growing. We keep discovering new principles of truth and might even receive more ordinances.
  • Is there really an end to our eternal progression after we have accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
    • No, not really.
  • Then what is the role of the Gospel as we progress on past receiving our endowments and Temple sealings?
    • It remains the foundation we are built on. Everything we learn and do continues to be guided by or approved by the witness of the Holy Ghost. That is the foundation on which we are built and therefore the foundation of everything we learn and do. The more we learn or do that which is not guided by or approved by the Holy Ghost, the less we are built on the rock or sure foundation.
    Does this mean we shouldn't listen to prophets or apostles because they are trying to teach us and tell us what to do?
    • No. It means that we should listen to them with the intent of hearing whether or not they are speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost which witnesses their words to us. In that way, we are always learning from and following the Holy Ghost in all things. But we also have to be willing to recognize and acknowledge when they teach things that are not witnessed by the spirit or told to do things that the spirit does not agree with. We also need to become very familiar with the voice of the Spirit and not confuse it with other voices that people seem to hear these days.
Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Amonhi »

Sarah wrote: July 29th, 2022, 8:06 am Paul also told the people to follow him, and he said a lot of things that weren't part of the doctrine of Christ. Does that make him not an apostle, unworthy to baptize and lay hands on people? Does that make everyone that listens to Paul not a true disciple?
Paul also commanded the church saying,
1 Cor. 14
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
We shouldn't believe everything Paul said, just because he said it. Nor should we believe everything the leaders of our church say, including the prophet, just because they said it in general conference as a prophet.
Church leaders are fallible and give their advice sometimes.

Exactly!!! Don't follow them, follow the spirit which will tell us when they are speaking for the Lord and when they are speaking for themselves.
God also gives commandments in addition to faith, baptism, repentance, Holy Ghost.
Yes, but never a commandment that stands under the holy title of doctrine. Also, when God gives a commandment to those who have the Holy Ghost, it is witnessed by the Holy Ghost and falls under the umbrella of "the Holy Ghost will tell you all things and show you all things that you should do."

Peace,
Amonhi

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Artaxerxes »

Amonhi wrote: July 30th, 2022, 4:48 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 10:26 am
Amonhi wrote: July 29th, 2022, 6:45 am
Artaxerxes wrote: July 28th, 2022, 4:11 pm

Yeah, can you imagine Joseph calling them the first principles? Can you imagine he saying something like:

"the first principles of the gospel, which are repentance, and baptism for the remission of sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands."
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ber-1835/2

"The first principles of the gospel as I believe. first Faith. Repentance. Baptism for the remission of sins. with the promise of the Holy Ghost."
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ource-note

I mean, can you even imagine?
Good find. Thank you. I'll be sure to remember that Joseph Smith was the source of that false doctrine which contradicts Nephi, and Jesus in the Book of Mormon and The Lord in the D&C. It isn't the first time he was clearly wrong, and it won't be the last.

Peace
Amonhi
Nope. As always, you guys are wrong.

What Joseph said: Are you done after completing the first principles and ordinances of the gospel? No.

What Nephi said: I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

They are the first and ordinances of the gospel. You guys just need to humble yourself enough to see that the false traditions you have adopted are contrary to the scriptures and the words of the prophets.
I didn't say that we are done after we have received the Gospel. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is all that is needed for Salvation, not eternal life. Eternal life is exaltation. Salvation is the gate by which we enter.

Where does Jesus define his Gospel?
Here..
D&C 39
5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospelrepentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.
and here...
D&C 33
11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;
13 And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.
and here...
D&C 49
1 Hearken unto my word, my servants Sidney, and Parley, and Leman; for behold, verily I say unto you, that I give unto you a commandment that you shall go and preach my gospel which ye have received, even as ye have received it, unto the Shakers.
...
11 Wherefore, I give unto you a commandment that ye go among this people, and say unto them, like unto mine apostle of old, whose name was Peter:
12 Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus, who was on the earth, and is to come, the beginning and the end;
13 Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, according to the holy commandment, for the remission of sins;
14 And whoso doeth this shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, by the laying on of the hands of the elders of the church.
and here...
3 Nephi 27
20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;” –
...and several other places in the scriptures.

Now, in every verse where the Lord said, "this is my gospel", he lists faith in him, repentance, baptism by water and the gift of the Holy Ghost. He doesn't list any other principles or ordinances. He also doesn't say these are the "first principles and ordinances" of my Gospel, he says "THIS is my gospel". He doesn't say anything to indicate that this list is an incomplete or partial list of principles and ordinances that make up his gospel. He tells us repeatedly that THIS is IT, indicating by his words that this is the complete list or fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I don't care if Joseph Smith or anyone else said that this list an incomplete, partial list of principles and ordinances that make up the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus repeatedly said it is a complete list called his gospel which encompasses all of his doctrines. Now, Joseph Smith and the church call this a list of "principles and ordinances", but Jesus and Nephi say this list is called "doctrines". The only reason to call this point out is that there are countless principles and ordinances, but there are only 4 doctrines accepted by the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost as "doctrine". And these 4 doctrines match up identically to the 4 points that make up the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Where does it say these are the only doctrines accepted as true by the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost?
Here...
2 Nephi 31 - Nephi quotes the words of Christ and teaches the doctrine of Christ several times and then says...
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
and here...
3 Nephi 32
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.
and again here...

BUT, before I quote this next reference in its entirety I want to call out the important background that caused Jesus to make these comments. In this next reference, Jesus speaking to a group of people who are arguing about what his doctrine includes and does not include, (JUST LIKE SOME OF US ON THIS FORUM ARE DOING, so he's speaking directly to us about the exact topic we are discussing right now). He tells us that there is no reason to argue or debate about what his doctrine is because he is going to tell us EXACTLY what it includes and what it does not include. He starts by telling us that he is going to tell us his doctrine, then he says, "this is my doctrine" and then he repeats his doctrine 3 times and tells us that he is teaching it "again" and "again". Then, after repeating it 3 times he ends by telling us that he just told us his doctrine. And finally so that there is absolutely no question or confusion on the topic, to stop all "disputations" regarding what is part of his doctrine, and in an effort to finally end the very debate we are having right now, he says, NOTHING more or less than this is considered my doctrine. Here is the entire reference.
3 Nephi 11
28 And according as I have commanded you thus shall ye baptize. And there shall be no disputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been.
29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.
30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.
31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.
37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things ("these things" means The baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost received after repentance and baptism mentioned in verse 35).
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
Why are we still disputing what Jesus himself declared to be his doctrine, all of his doctrine and nothing but his doctrine when he did so to end all disputes regarding his doctrine? His doctrine and gospel doesn't include tithing or the Word of Wisdom, or the law of Chastity or eternal families. These things might be true principles, but they are not doctrines of Christ and they are not part of his gospel. 1+1 = 2 is also true, but it isn't part of the doctrine and Gospel of Jesus Christ. His doctrine and gospel doesn't include Temple Sealings or endowments or healings or casting out devils. These might be true ordinances, but are still not part of the doctrine and Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Faith, repentance, baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost which tells us all things we should do are the only points of doctrine and are all of the points of doctrine that Jesus lumped together every time he said, "THIS IS MY GOSPEL". They are not the FIRST principles and ordinances of his gospel. They are the ONLY principles and ordinances of his gospel, the whole thing! All of his individual doctrines combined are called his gospel or the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Why does this not make sense to everyone, when he couldn't possibly have been more clear is teaching his doctrine?
  • I'll answer this rhetorical question with the real reason why. It's because the church hasn't been teaching his doctrine correctly and so most members don't know what his doctrine is or what his Gospel is. So people like me who were raised and taught in the church from birth are confused and shocked when we realize what the Lord repeatedly says exactly what his gospel and doctrine actually is.
I don't care if Joseph Smith or President Nelson or the entire church says that there are thousands of doctrines of Christ. I don't care if they say that faith, repentance, baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost are only the FIRST principles and ordinances that make up his Gospel. IF THEY ADD EVEN ONE MORE PRINCIPLE OR ORDINANCE to that list of approved doctrines that make up the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then they are teaching false doctrine which is not his gospel.

When the angel Moroni told Joseph Smith about the Book of Mormon, he explained two reasons for reading the book. (see JSH 1:34)
  • It gave "account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang."
  • "He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;"
The Book of Mormon has the fulness of the Gospel as taught by Jesus Christ and in it he didn't teach about the endowment or eternal marriage, or tithing or chastity, or smoking, or obeying your leaders, or basic math or a great number of things.

On Oct. 29th 1831, the Lord said to William E. McLellin that he was blessed because he had received the Fulness of the Gospel, (D&C 66:2). The temple wasn't built, the word of wisdom wasn't revealed, the revelation on tithing hadn't been received, etc. Yet, the lord said this man was already blessed for receiving the fulness of the Gospel.

And look at the instruction given by the Lord on February 9 and 23, 1831, before tithing, temples, the word of wisdom, calling and election and a great number of other revelations were given...
D&C 42
12 And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel.
13 And they shall observe the covenants and church articles to do them, and these shall be their teachings, as they shall be directed by the Spirit.
14 And the Spirit shall be given unto you by the prayer of faith; and if ye receive not the Spirit ye shall not teach.
How can they teach principles and ordinances that they have not yet received? Obviously they can't. But they can teach the principles of the gospel because the fulness of the Gospel is contained in the Book of Mormon, which also does not talk about things not revealed until after 1831.

Some people say that the Gospel of Jesus Christ encompasses every principle of truth that can be discovered. Jesus said, no it doesn't, it only includes these few truths. It doesn't matter how true or universally applicable or important you think a thing is, it isn't part of the Gospel if it isn't in that list. It doesn't matter if it is taught by Joseph Smith or Nelson or the church. If it isn't a doctrine of Christ, then it isn't part of his gospel and he told us exactly which truths are.

Jesus knows his gospel a lot better than the church and apparently better than Joseph Smith. Yes, as much as I admire Joseph, he was sometimes wrong, and this is without a doubt one of those times. And yes, I think Jesus trumps Joseph Smith in regard to the topic of what is and what is not the Gospel of JESUS CHRIST. If Joseph Smith wants to declare his own gospel, he can go right ahead and do it and we can call it the Gospel of Joseph Smith. But, if the church calls itself Christ church and teaches the gospel of Joseph Smith then it isn't really his Christ's church is it?

Now, can we finally put that to bed and align ourselves with the words of the Lord in the scriptures and realize that any man who is teaching more or less than this short list of doctrines and calling it the gospel of Jesus Christ doesn't actually know what he's talking about and is teaching doctrines and a gospel that comes of evil and opens the gate of hell to receive people. I know I just ruined General Conference for some of you because now you're going to hear every time they are talking about the gospel of Jesus Christ and teaching all sorts of false doctrine as if it were Christ's doctrine. (Like Sarah said, men are men and they make mistakes, I know.)

Perhaps you should ask when is a teaching or doctrine no longer the idea of an individual man making a mistake? When do we say that a Church itself has begun teaching false doctrine to the point that it is no longer recognized as Christ's church? Does it happen when the President of the Church teaches false doctrine or when 50% of the members of the Church teach false doctrine? Where is the line we draw that says, "This is no longer the Church of Jesus Christ because it is not built on the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Might I submit that if the formalized, documented, published and preached, core, fundamental, basic doctrines and practices of a church are not inline with the doctrines of Christ, which he called his gospel, then that church is not his church. This is recommendation comes from what Jesus Christ said regarding his church.
3 Nephi 27
8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.
9 Verily I say unto you, that ye are built upon my gospel; therefore ye shall call whatsoever things ye do call, in my name; therefore if ye call upon the Father, for the church, if it be in my name the Father will hear you;
10 And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it.
11 But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.
This means that if a church teaches more or less than his doctrine as part of the fundamental Gospel they preach or if they teach anything counter to his doctrine, then it is not his church.

What would be an example a teaching that is counter to his doctrine?
  • Well, he said that the whole point of the gift of the Holy Ghost is that it will teach you all things and show you all things that you should do.
  • A teaching that is counter to the doctrine of Christ is to say that the leader of the church will teach you ANYTHING or show you ANYTHING that you should do. Yeah, that's right. If the Holy Ghost is supposed to teach us ALL THINGS, then what is left to be taught from our leaders? If the Holy Ghost is supposed to show us ALL THINGS that we should do, then what remains that our leaders can show us? If a leader teaches and expects us to learn from them or follow them, without the explicit witness from the Holy Ghost that what they are saying or telling us to do is God's will, then they are teaching contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, even if they teach all of the points of his doctrine.
Ok, so, then what are the formalized, documented, published and preached, core, fundamental, basic doctrines and practices of the LDS Church?

We call them the Articles of Faith. What do they say?
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Well, in the English language, we don't say something is first if there isn't a second. It is implicit in this statement that there are more principles and ordinances of the Gospel which are not included in the short list provided. I offer up that there is a simple and effective solution to this statement but I also want to point out that the Church and its members would reject this simple and effective solution. Here is the one word change that would immediately make the formalized, documented, published and preached, core, fundamental, basic doctrines and practices of the church aligned with the doctrine and Gospel of Jesus Christ.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the ONLY principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Like I said, the church would flip over such a change. It would create confusion and chaos and the members would wonder, like you Artaxerxes, what does that mean? Does that mean that we are all done progressing as soon as we receive the Holy Ghost? What about all the other stuff?

Here is how you asked this question rhetorically.
Artaxerxes wrote:Are you done after completing the first principles and ordinances of the gospel? No.
Let me correct your question so that it is aligned with the teachings of Christ,

"Are we done after completing the ONLY principles and ordinances of the Gospel?"

No, of course not. But that doesn't mean that any other principles and ordinances are part of "the Gospel of Jesus Christ" or accepted as part of his "only and true doctrine". 1+1=2 is true, but it isn't part of his gospel either.

Let's walk through this in real life to see what is happening here:
Until we receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost we remain outside of the gate/unsaved not having received the remission of our sins. While outside of the gate, we are not living the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we are still living the Preparatory Gospel. We aren't saved, we haven't had a remission of our sins, we can't hear the Lord's voice because we don't have the spirit. In this state, the Lord calls us "wicked", fallen man, telestial, etc.
(Just like Adam after the fall.)

When we receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, we have entered in at the gate and have been saved. Our sins are remitted which makes us sinless and worthy of the Holy Ghost, which is the voice of God. Now that we can hear his voice we are considered his sheep. At this point we have started living the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We have received a remission of our sins, we have entered the kingdom of God, we have been saved, and we can hear his voice. (Just like Adam in the garden of Eden before the fall. In other words, we have been saved from the fall.) In this state, the Lord calls us "righteous", saved man, terrestrial, etc. We have passed through the gate are now standing at the beginning of the path that leads to eternal life.
  • Are we done?
    • No. After we begin living the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we see there is a gate behind us that we just came through and a path in front of us we haven't traveled yet and at the end of the path is eternal life. We have only just taken hold of the iron rod which is the word of God through the Holy Ghost to us directly. If we let go of the iron rod, (which means stop letting the Holy Ghost/word of God teach us all things and show us all things that we should do), then we will walk off the path and never reach eternal life which is at the end of the path. At this point, we need to start walking the path that leads to eternal life. We could not possible walk the path that leads to eternal life without first having accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ because walking the path requires us to follow the Holy Ghost. If we are not being taught all things by the Holy Ghost and being shown all things that we should do by the Holy Ghost, then we aren't walking the path that leads to eternal life. We are off the path that leads to eternal life because only the Holy Ghost can show us the path.
  • Are we saved back into the Terrestrial State?
    • Yes, "salvation" has happened the moment we entered in at the gate and received the remission of our sins via the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.
  • Are we Exalted back into a Celestial State?
    • No. We are on the path that leads to eternal life and exaltation is eternal life at the end of the path when we are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise to eternal life which makes make our calling and election sure.
  • Is the Gospel of Jesus Christ everything that we need to be saved?
    • Yes.
  • Is the Gospel of Jesus Christ everything we need to be exalted?
    • No. The Holy Ghost will teach us all things and show us all things that we need to do to be exalted.
  • Other than faith, repentance, Baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, are there any other principles or ordinances that are part of the gospel of Jesus Christ?
    • No. Jesus was VERY Clear on this the several times that he told us exactly what his gospel is, and the several times that he said that these are the only doctrines he has and teaching more or less than these as his doctrine comes of evil and opens the gates of hell.
  • What about when we are sealed by the holy Spirit of promise and make our Calling and election sure? Are we done then?
    • No, we keep progressing and learning and growing. We keep discovering new principles of truth and might even receive more ordinances.
  • Is there really an end to our eternal progression after we have accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
    • No, not really.
  • Then what is the role of the Gospel as we progress on past receiving our endowments and Temple sealings?
    • It remains the foundation we are built on. Everything we learn and do continues to be guided by or approved by the witness of the Holy Ghost. That is the foundation on which we are built and therefore the foundation of everything we learn and do. The more we learn or do that which is not guided by or approved by the Holy Ghost, the less we are built on the rock or sure foundation.
    Does this mean we shouldn't listen to prophets or apostles because they are trying to teach us and tell us what to do?
    • No. It means that we should listen to them with the intent of hearing whether or not they are speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost which witnesses their words to us. In that way, we are always learning from and following the Holy Ghost in all things. But we also have to be willing to recognize and acknowledge when they teach things that are not witnessed by the spirit or told to do things that the spirit does not agree with. We also need to become very familiar with the voice of the Spirit and not confuse it with other voices that people seem to hear these days.
Peace,
Amonhi
You're making a distinction without a difference. If you guys, Nephi, Joseph, and the Church all agree that baptism isn't it, then what's the problem? You're just trying to make the church an offender for a word, as usual.

Baptism is not required for the terrestrial kingdom. Section 76 only lists baptism as being required for the celestial kingdom. You guys fundamentally misunderstand the nature of the gospel and ordinances.

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Amonhi »

Sarah wrote: July 29th, 2022, 3:21 pm I have not heard it preached often if at all that you need to check that your promptings match the prophet's words, but I have heard it preached very often to make sure we are worthy of and listening to the Holy Ghost. I don't think they are dismantling the basics like you claim.
Let me help you see it...
However, personal inspiration from the Lord will never contradict the revelation God gives through His prophets. - Church website: Prophets and Revelation
“If we get an impression contrary to the scriptures, to the commandments of God, to the teachings of His leaders, then we know it can’t be coming from the Holy Ghost. The gospel is consistent throughout.” - November 19, 2017, LDS apostles Dallin H. Oaks and M. Russell Ballard
To avoid this tragic error, it is crucial that any personal revelation we receive be consonant with the teachings of the Lord and His prophets. - Henry B. Eyring, "The Faith to Ask and Then to Act," Liahona 45, no. 11 (November 2021): 75.
When visions, dreams, tongues, prophecy, impressions or any extraordinary gift or inspiration, convey something out of harmony with the accepted revelations of the Church or contrary to the decisions of its constituted authorities, Latter-day Saints may know that it is not of God, no matter how plausible it may appear. - Joseph F. Smith, Anthon H. Lund, Charles W. Penrose, “A Warning Voice,” Improvement Era 20 (Sept. 1913)
The divine injunction to pray is not to be satisfied in a casual manner nor by an effort to obtain divine approval of a predetermined course. A firm resolve to comply with the will of God must accompany the petition for knowledge as to what His will is. When one brings himself to the position that he will pursue the truth wherever it may lead, even though it may require a reversal of his former position, he can, without hypocrisy, go before the Lord in prayer. Then, when he prays with all the energy of his soul, he is entitled to and he will receive guidance. The mind and will of the Lord as to the course he should take will be made known unto him.
I assure you, however, that the spirit of the Lord will never direct a person to take a position in opposition to the counsel of the Presidency of His Church. - Marion G. Romney, “Loyalty,” Conference Report (April 1942).
Some members assume that one can be in full harmony with the spirit of the gospel, enjoy full fellowship in the Church, and at the same time be out of harmony with the leaders of the Church and the counsel and direction they give. Such a position is wholly inconsistent. . . . Those who profess to accept the gospel and who at the same time criticize and refuse to follow the counsel of the prophets are assuming an indefensible position. Such a spirit leads to apostasy.- Marion G. Romney, “Conference Report (April 1983): 21; also in “Unity,” Ensign (March 1983).
"Always keep your eye on the President of the church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, even if it is wrong, and you do it, the lord will bless you for it but you don't need to worry. The lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray." - LDS President Marion G. Romney (of the first presidency), quoting LDS President (and prophet) Heber J. Grant "Conference Report" Oct. 1960 p. 78
Obedience to the Prophets by Claudio R. M. Costa of the Presidency of the Seventy given in General Conference on Oct. 2010
“In the sixth article of faith, we declare that we believe in prophets. To believe means to have faith and confidence in them and to follow and do what the prophets ask us to do… It made me feel good that I had made the decision to follow the prophets for the rest of my life when I accepted baptism in the Lord’s true Church.” -
Just swap the Prophet with the Spirit in the above statement to get Christ's real gospel.
"Any Latter-day Saint who denounces or opposes whether actively or otherwise, any plan or doctrine advocated by the prophets, seers, revelators' of the church, is cultivating the spirit of apostasy. One cannot speak evil of the lord's anointed... and retain the holy spirit in his heart. This sort of game is Satan's favorite pastime, and he has practiced it to believing souls since Adam. He {Satan} wins a great victory when he can get members of the church to speak against their leaders and to do their own thinking. When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God.” - Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945 Also included in the Improvement Era, June 1945 (which was the official church magazine before the Ensign)

"When the Prophet speaks the debate is over". - N. Eldon Tanner, August Ensign 1979, pages 2-3
“You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may conflict with your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life … Your safety and ours depends upon whether or not we follow … Let’s keep our eye on the President of the Church.” (Harold B. Lee, Conference Report, October 1970, p. 152–153. www.lds.org/manual/teachings-harold-b-l ... 9?lang=eng)
“The Prophet spoke out clearly on Friday morning, telling us what our responsibilities are…
“A man said to me after that, ‘You know, there are people in our state who believe in following the Prophet in everything they think is right, but when it is something they think isn’t right, and it doesn’t appeal to them, then that’s different.’ He said, ‘Then they become their own prophet. They decide what the Lord wants and what the Lord doesn’t want.’
“I thought how true, and how serious when we begin to choose which of the covenants, which of the commandments we will keep and follow, we are taking the law of the Lord into our own hands and become our own prophets, and believe me, we will be led astray, because we are false prophets to ourselves when we do not follow the Prophet of God. No, we should never discriminate between these commandments, as to those we should and should not keep.” - President N. Eldon Tanner, CR, October 1966, p. 98.
To list a few...

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Amonhi »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 30th, 2022, 4:59 pm
You're making a distinction without a difference. If you guys, Nephi, Joseph, and the Church all agree that baptism isn't it, then what's the problem? You're just trying to make the church an offender for a word, as usual.
Not sure what you are saying here.
Baptism is not required for the terrestrial kingdom. Section 76 only lists baptism as being required for the celestial kingdom. You guys fundamentally misunderstand the nature of the gospel and ordinances.
D&C 76 says, that the Terrestrial were preached the gospel (Including baptism) and received the Testimony of Christ. Why would they not accept baptism and the Holy Ghost if they were taught the gospel and had a testimony of Christ? But we are told that they were not valiant in that testimony.
71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.
72 Behold, these are they who died without law;
73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
...
78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.
79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.
In other words, they entered in at the gate and were on the path but were not valiant in the testimony of Christ, and so they left the path that leads to eternal life before reaching the end of the path.

D&C 76 tells us that the Telestial neither received the gospel nor the testimony of Christ.
81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.
82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.
D&C 76 says that the Celestial didn't stop their progression at baptism. They continued on valiant in the testimony of Christ to the end of the path and reached eternal life.
50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
The final step of which was being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. If they had been baptized and received the Holy Ghost and continued on the path for any period of time without having completed the path by being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, then they would not have qualified for the Celestial kingdom, and they would have been in the Terrestrial kingdom.

D&C 76 says
  • The Telestial Kingdom = Don't receive a testimony of Christ or the Gospel of Jesus Christ
  • The terrestrial kingdom = Taught the gospel of Jesus Christ and receive a testimony of Christ (The gate or beginning of the path) but never reached the end of the path which is being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. All progression after receiving a testimony of Christ and the Gospel without being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise to eternal life happens in the Terrestrial kingdom.
  • The Celestial kingdom - Starts with being sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. Any progression that does not include being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is Terrestrial (including baptism which happens after having a testimony of Christ) or Telestial (anything before having a testimony of Christ). This is for people who are valiant in the testimony of Christ which means they let the Holy Ghost tell them all things they should do until they reach the end of the path that leads to eternal life.
Peace,
Amonhi

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Artaxerxes »

Amonhi wrote: July 30th, 2022, 6:33 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 30th, 2022, 4:59 pm
You're making a distinction without a difference. If you guys, Nephi, Joseph, and the Church all agree that baptism isn't it, then what's the problem? You're just trying to make the church an offender for a word, as usual.
Not sure what you are saying here.
Baptism is not required for the terrestrial kingdom. Section 76 only lists baptism as being required for the celestial kingdom. You guys fundamentally misunderstand the nature of the gospel and ordinances.
D&C 76 says, that the Terrestrial were preached the gospel (Including baptism) and received the Testimony of Christ. Why would they not accept baptism and the Holy Ghost if they were taught the gospel and had a testimony of Christ? But we are told that they were not valiant in that testimony.
71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.
72 Behold, these are they who died without law;
73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
...
78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.
79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.
In other words, they entered in at the gate and were on the path but were not valiant in the testimony of Christ, and so they left the path that leads to eternal life before reaching the end of the path.

D&C 76 tells us that the Telestial neither received the gospel nor the testimony of Christ.
81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.
82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.
D&C 76 says that the Celestial didn't stop their progression at baptism. They continued on valiant in the testimony of Christ to the end of the path and reached eternal life.
50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
The final step of which was being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. If they had been baptized and received the Holy Ghost and continued on the path for any period of time without having completed the path by being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, then they would not have qualified for the Celestial kingdom, and they would have been in the Terrestrial kingdom.

D&C 76 says
  • The Telestial Kingdom = Don't receive a testimony of Christ or the Gospel of Jesus Christ
  • The terrestrial kingdom = Taught the gospel of Jesus Christ and receive a testimony of Christ (The gate or beginning of the path) but never reached the end of the path which is being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. All progression after receiving a testimony of Christ and the Gospel without being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise to eternal life happens in the Terrestrial kingdom.
  • The Celestial kingdom - Starts with being sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. Any progression that does not include being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is Terrestrial (including baptism which happens after having a testimony of Christ) or Telestial (anything before having a testimony of Christ). This is for people who are valiant in the testimony of Christ which means they let the Holy Ghost tell them all things they should do until they reach the end of the path that leads to eternal life.
Peace,
Amonhi
I'm saying that you're manufacturing a crisis. Everyone agrees there's more than just the first principles.

You can make up additions to Section 76 all you like, but it says what it says. It says baptism is required for celestial, not terrestrial.

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Amonhi »

Sarah wrote: July 29th, 2022, 3:23 pm
Amonhi wrote: July 29th, 2022, 3:19 pm
Sarah wrote: July 28th, 2022, 8:13 am
SPIRIT wrote: July 28th, 2022, 12:48 am

I guess you haven't read the Book of Mormon very much,
to find out what happened to a people - and will happen to us - for not heeding their warnings.
A people who once had the gospel and lost it -
You're like them - in your pride - saying
" we are the one and only rue church - we have the one and only true gospel and will never lose it"
famous last words.

they (The House of Israel) actually lost it to us - and now, we (the Gentiles) will lose it back to them;
but of course you wouldn't know that, because you care more about blindly following church leaders
and what they say, than you do in reading and believing in the scriptures and what they say.


"Two consecutive histories of fallen peoples on this land fore-warn
the Gentiles of their own imminent fate. (Eth. 2:11; 8:21-26).
Mormon has vividly described the destruction of the Nephites. (Morm. 6:1-22).
Now Moroni recounts the destruction of the Jaredites in order to persuade
the Gentiles to repent."
(Eth. 2:11; 8:23).
Yes, the Gentiles will go down, but I am no longer a gentile, but am part of covenant Israel, because I keep my covenants that were performed under Priesthood authority. I am one of the ones spoken of in the BofM that has believed and is numbered among the house of Israel.
Keeping covenants performed by priesthood authority is not what makes us adopted into Israel.

Peace,
Amonhi
Jacob said it was repentance and believing in Christ (those who would be counted as the House of Israel) and repentance leads us to baptism, and to keeping the Lord's commandments.
If your focus and attention is on keeping covenants, then you aren't focusing on the right thing. You aren't acting with real intent.

For example, if you made a covenant to pray 3 times a day, so three times a day you pray to keep your covenant, then your prayers will not be accepted because your focus and intent is wrong. For a prayer to be accepted, it must be done with the real intent of communicating with God.

If you made a covenant to not have sexual relations with anyone you are not legally and lawfully married to and you focus on keeping that covenant, but you secretly lust after a man you aren't married to, you are not acting with real intent keeping your covenant.

Real intent is specific to what you are doing and means that your true internal intent matches up with your action. Nothing you do with the internal intent of "Keeping covenants" is considered real intent. Its like obeying the law by not committing murder but hating your neighbor and wishing they would die. Such people are judged as murders even though they didn't kill.

That was my point. Keeping covenants does not make a person adopted into the house of Israel. That was the point of the thread I linked too.

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Amonhi »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:11 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 3:51 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 10:26 am
Nope. As always, you guys are wrong.

What Joseph said: Are you done after completing the first principles and ordinances of the gospel? No.

What Nephi said: I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

They are the first and ordinances of the gospel. You guys just need to humble yourself enough to see that the false traditions you have adopted are contrary to the scriptures and the words of the prophets.
You believe that the Savior is a liar, then? Or maybe you don't believe the Book of Mormon is true?

If the Book of Mormon is true, then the account in 3 Nephi 11 where the Savior instructs what His full and complete doctrine is, from His own lips, and commands that anything added to or taken away from that doctrine comes solely of evil, then in order to disregard what He actually says then you must be assuming that He is a liar.

BTW, you are giving an illogical equivalency to the notion of 'being done' with the concept that the Savior's doctrine is complete. Christ full doctrine is on display in 3 Nephi 11, as spoken by the resurrected Savior. He states that we must believe and be baptized, then He restates the requirements as repent and be baptized, which if I'm reading correctly equates belief and repentance as basically the same thing, or perhaps 2 sides of the same coin. There is no getting 'done' with believing, nor getting 'done' with repenting in this life, is there? So I don't see how Nephi's quote conflicts, or somehow implies that we'll just go on adding new pieces to Christ's doctrine as time goes on.

If we are listing the components of Christ's doctrine, then yeah we are definitely 'done' with the the list since the Savior said it was a complete doctrine Himself.
I quoted the book of Mormon and Joseph. Why don't you believe them? Why do you call Nephi and Joseph liars?
(Face palm)
She/He didn't. RPM asked a rhetorical question to help you see that your stance was making Jesus a liar by potting Jesus against Nephi and saying Nephi was right.. And you responded by saying Nephi was right to contradict Jesus because Jesus was wrong. You just indicated that Jesus lied and we should believe Nephi.

Nephi doesn't contradict Christ in the Book of Mormon. They both agree. The Gospel is a very limited list and we make that our foundation hich cannot be overruled or removed by other doctrine as we continue progressing.

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
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Posts: 4650

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Amonhi »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:32 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:27 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:11 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 3:51 pm

You believe that the Savior is a liar, then? Or maybe you don't believe the Book of Mormon is true?

If the Book of Mormon is true, then the account in 3 Nephi 11 where the Savior instructs what His full and complete doctrine is, from His own lips, and commands that anything added to or taken away from that doctrine comes solely of evil, then in order to disregard what He actually says then you must be assuming that He is a liar.

BTW, you are giving an illogical equivalency to the notion of 'being done' with the concept that the Savior's doctrine is complete. Christ full doctrine is on display in 3 Nephi 11, as spoken by the resurrected Savior. He states that we must believe and be baptized, then He restates the requirements as repent and be baptized, which if I'm reading correctly equates belief and repentance as basically the same thing, or perhaps 2 sides of the same coin. There is no getting 'done' with believing, nor getting 'done' with repenting in this life, is there? So I don't see how Nephi's quote conflicts, or somehow implies that we'll just go on adding new pieces to Christ's doctrine as time goes on.

If we are listing the components of Christ's doctrine, then yeah we are definitely 'done' with the the list since the Savior said it was a complete doctrine Himself.
I quoted the book of Mormon and Joseph. Why don't you believe them? Why do you call Nephi and Joseph liars?
Let's play your game, even though you know very well I never called Joseph or Nephi liars, nor did I contradict them.

But ok, let's play it out. If Nephi and Joseph are liars... so what, we trust in God. The universe hangs together just fine with or without Joseph and Nephi telling the truth.

On the other hand, if God is a liar, then the very universe cannot be, and all flies apart. But God cannot lie, and He is not a liar. Which is why I recommend you stop disregarding what He said on this matter. I realize that is a difficult ask, if you're deep in cognitive dissonance and steeped in clinging to the arm of flesh, but it's the only path that doesn't lead to destruction imo.
I have disregarded nothing. You have chosen to ignore God's word.
Ignore God's word through whom?

You are saying Jesus teachings that takes up nearly the entire chapter of 3 Nephi 11 to explain his own doctrine is wrong. And you are quoting Nephi and Joseph Smith to support your stance.

And you don't see a problem with that?

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
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Posts: 4650

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Amonhi »

Sarah wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:35 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 3:39 pm
Sarah wrote: July 29th, 2022, 8:06 am
Paul also told the people to follow him, and he said a lot of things that weren't part of the doctrine of Christ. Does that make him not an apostle, unworthy to baptize and lay hands on people? Does that make everyone that listens to Paul not a true disciple?

If Paul himself appeared before me in a resurrected body, along with Moses, Joseph Smith, Noah, Peter, James, John, even Adam, and all of them together preached something that was directly contrary to what Jesus Christ Himself taught as His doctrine, then I would still only trust and follow what the Savior taught, and disregard all the rest as trusting in the arm of flesh.

3 Nephi 11 states clearly what the doctrine of Christ is, from Christ's own lips. He was the one who said that anything added to or taken away would not be His doctrine, and would come of evil. All of the arm of flesh (even truly great men and prophets) is as nothing beside the Lord. He cannot lie.
Perhaps you are misinterpreting what the Lord means with his words. This is his doctrine in that all people must follow this path through these steps. We shouldn't take away or add to these steps in order to come unto him. He also asks us to follow his commandments, and receive the Priesthood blessings which he desires to give us (through temple ordinances). So what would you call all his teachings in the Sermon on the Mount? Are those commandments part of his doctrine or not?
They are not doctrine. They might be true, but they are not his doctrine. The problem here is that your definition of doctrine and his definition of doctrine are different. Your seems to include all church related truths. His does not.

True principles are not doctrine, just because they are true. To call them doctrine takes away the power and importance placed on these specific true principles and makes them equally important as other potential truths.they are not equally important, they are more important than other truths and they are the foundation we must build.

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
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Posts: 4650

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Amonhi »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:04 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:01 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:32 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:27 pm

Let's play your game, even though you know very well I never called Joseph or Nephi liars, nor did I contradict them.

But ok, let's play it out. If Nephi and Joseph are liars... so what, we trust in God. The universe hangs together just fine with or without Joseph and Nephi telling the truth.

On the other hand, if God is a liar, then the very universe cannot be, and all flies apart. But God cannot lie, and He is not a liar. Which is why I recommend you stop disregarding what He said on this matter. I realize that is a difficult ask, if you're deep in cognitive dissonance and steeped in clinging to the arm of flesh, but it's the only path that doesn't lead to destruction imo.
I have disregarded nothing. You have chosen to ignore God's word.
Many, many times I have ignored God's word, that much is very true. I am a very sinful man, but at least I am aware of that fact.

On the other hand, you maintain you have 'disregarded nothing'. That's the exact attitude of pride which exemplifies why pride may just be the worst of the vices, and leads to self-blindness and destruction.

I realize you're just trolling, which is fine, but at the end of the day the Doctrine of Christ strikes me as a pretty important topic. To completely ignore what Christ Himself said about His own doctrine seems to me to be a foolish decision.
No one is ignoring this as you claim. People simply realize that all scriptures should be read together, which you refuse to do.
What is even more interesting is that Nephi also says that this is the only doctrine accepted by the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. He says it twice, once in the chapter you quote saying we aren't done.. And yet you use him to show Jesus was wrong. Lol

Peace,
Amonhi

Artaxerxes
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Posts: 2298

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Artaxerxes »

Amonhi wrote: July 31st, 2022, 9:07 am
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:11 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 3:51 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 10:26 am
Nope. As always, you guys are wrong.

What Joseph said: Are you done after completing the first principles and ordinances of the gospel? No.

What Nephi said: I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

They are the first and ordinances of the gospel. You guys just need to humble yourself enough to see that the false traditions you have adopted are contrary to the scriptures and the words of the prophets.
You believe that the Savior is a liar, then? Or maybe you don't believe the Book of Mormon is true?

If the Book of Mormon is true, then the account in 3 Nephi 11 where the Savior instructs what His full and complete doctrine is, from His own lips, and commands that anything added to or taken away from that doctrine comes solely of evil, then in order to disregard what He actually says then you must be assuming that He is a liar.

BTW, you are giving an illogical equivalency to the notion of 'being done' with the concept that the Savior's doctrine is complete. Christ full doctrine is on display in 3 Nephi 11, as spoken by the resurrected Savior. He states that we must believe and be baptized, then He restates the requirements as repent and be baptized, which if I'm reading correctly equates belief and repentance as basically the same thing, or perhaps 2 sides of the same coin. There is no getting 'done' with believing, nor getting 'done' with repenting in this life, is there? So I don't see how Nephi's quote conflicts, or somehow implies that we'll just go on adding new pieces to Christ's doctrine as time goes on.

If we are listing the components of Christ's doctrine, then yeah we are definitely 'done' with the the list since the Savior said it was a complete doctrine Himself.
I quoted the book of Mormon and Joseph. Why don't you believe them? Why do you call Nephi and Joseph liars?
(Face palm)
She/He didn't. RPM asked a rhetorical question to help you see that your stance was making Jesus a liar by potting Jesus against Nephi and saying Nephi was right.. And you responded by saying Nephi was right to contradict Jesus because Jesus was wrong. You just indicated that Jesus lied and we should believe Nephi.

Nephi doesn't contradict Christ in the Book of Mormon. They both agree. The Gospel is a very limited list and we make that our foundation hich cannot be overruled or removed by other doctrine as we continue progressing.

Peace,
Amonhi
Nope. You and Red set them in conflict. I have said that they both can be true. Jesus said more than just four things, as did Nephi.

Artaxerxes
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Posts: 2298

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Artaxerxes »

Amonhi wrote: July 31st, 2022, 9:32 am
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:32 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:27 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:11 pm

I quoted the book of Mormon and Joseph. Why don't you believe them? Why do you call Nephi and Joseph liars?
Let's play your game, even though you know very well I never called Joseph or Nephi liars, nor did I contradict them.

But ok, let's play it out. If Nephi and Joseph are liars... so what, we trust in God. The universe hangs together just fine with or without Joseph and Nephi telling the truth.

On the other hand, if God is a liar, then the very universe cannot be, and all flies apart. But God cannot lie, and He is not a liar. Which is why I recommend you stop disregarding what He said on this matter. I realize that is a difficult ask, if you're deep in cognitive dissonance and steeped in clinging to the arm of flesh, but it's the only path that doesn't lead to destruction imo.
I have disregarded nothing. You have chosen to ignore God's word.
Ignore God's word through whom?

You are saying Jesus teachings that takes up nearly the entire chapter of 3 Nephi 11 to explain his own doctrine is wrong. And you are quoting Nephi and Joseph Smith to support your stance.

And you don't see a problem with that?

Peace,
Amonhi
Nope. I said no such thing. Read it again.

Artaxerxes
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Posts: 2298

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Artaxerxes »

Amonhi wrote: July 31st, 2022, 10:00 am
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:04 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 5:01 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:32 pm

I have disregarded nothing. You have chosen to ignore God's word.
Many, many times I have ignored God's word, that much is very true. I am a very sinful man, but at least I am aware of that fact.

On the other hand, you maintain you have 'disregarded nothing'. That's the exact attitude of pride which exemplifies why pride may just be the worst of the vices, and leads to self-blindness and destruction.

I realize you're just trolling, which is fine, but at the end of the day the Doctrine of Christ strikes me as a pretty important topic. To completely ignore what Christ Himself said about His own doctrine seems to me to be a foolish decision.
No one is ignoring this as you claim. People simply realize that all scriptures should be read together, which you refuse to do.
What is even more interesting is that Nephi also says that this is the only doctrine accepted by the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. He says it twice, once in the chapter you quote saying we aren't done.. And yet you use him to show Jesus was wrong. Lol

Peace,
Amonhi
Again. You guys are lying.

Amonhi
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Posts: 4650

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Amonhi »

John Tavner wrote: July 29th, 2022, 8:02 pm
Sarah wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:29 pm
John Tavner wrote: July 29th, 2022, 4:02 pm
Sarah wrote: July 29th, 2022, 8:06 am

Paul also told the people to follow him, and he said a lot of things that weren't part of the doctrine of Christ. Does that make him not an apostle, unworthy to baptize and lay hands on people? Does that make everyone that listens to Paul not a true disciple?

Church leaders are fallible and give their advice sometimes. God also gives commandments in addition to faith, baptism, repentance, Holy Ghost. You need commandments to know what to repent of. Be ye therefore perfect and all those things Jesus Preached. They are commandments in addition to the basics. When it comes to church activities and things like that, God cares more about whether we are united with each other than what the details of the decision are.
Paul was saying follow him as he followed Christ - meaning he was saying he was an example - showing that it was possible to follow Christ.
I agree with that and feel that is the attitude of our apostles. They know they are giving us the will of the Lord anytime they feel he has communicated with them what His will is for the entire church.
I might agree, but Paul taught that we can be perfect through Christ, that we are righteous through Christ and that we are holy and blameless through Christ. He taught that we should no longer consider ourselves sinners, but Saints and that we should put off self-seeking, anger, frustration etc etc... There isn't too much from the Apostles on that. Paul taught that the grace of God can overcome all things, Paul taught that we can be like Christ in THIS life. I don't hear too much of that. Paul was saying "Look, I've been able to follow Christ, that He lives in me, and that God wants to manifest Himself through you too, like He is me. I've learned to be content in whatever situation I'm in, just like Christ - you can too, you must believe, so stop thinking that works save you, it is Christ that saves you, and then as you Know God and His love, you will be guided in all understanding in what to do."

THe messages today are pretty bland and teach that Christ isn't enough - they don't say it, but it is implied in that we need to always "do more." There 100% needs to be change, but doing more doesn't offer that change. It is only in becoming as a little child and letting God work in us, believing He will that we change. We lack belief. In fact Unbelief is probably the biggest curse of our generation and among CHristians in general. Christians are so sin conscious that htey don't recognize and accept the state of Righteousness that Christ gives them... just because they believe. Then you have people who abuse it by believing they can do what they want, but grace without change is of the devil and they just reject it entirely, not believing they can be like Christ in this life - that is relegated to "special ones" yet we are only limited by our belief. Part of the problem too is our unhealthy obsession with prophets and our wrong thinking about htem. We think they are some "special cadre" of humanity, when the reality is that God has called us all to that mission, we just don't believe. None of that is taught by the 12, in fact the way they portray themselves today is intended to create separation - Standing for them when they enter a room, not leaving until they leave, people fawning over them and them not correcting it. It is unhealthy. Respect for those in leadership is good, but respect is not separation, it is something we ought to give all people.
Yes!!!! This, all of it.

And the two extremes, believiChrist to justify wickedness since they are saved and not believing Christ and trying to save yourselves with works.
It can be hard to teach against one of those evils without looking like you are supporting the other. You did a great job point at both as wrong.

The middle way, faith in Christ, not works and still changing and improving.

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
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Posts: 4650

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Amonhi »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 30th, 2022, 10:51 am
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 30th, 2022, 7:45 am
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 11:53 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 29th, 2022, 11:50 pm

Yup.

He spelled out what His doctrine was, and explicitly stated anything else was not it.

Though I'm blanking on when/where Christ commanded the sacrament, so maybe sacrament isn't a commandment. Someone will remind me of a verse to confirm one way or the other.
3 Ne 18:6
Thanks, that confirms commandment status I think, paired with verse 5 before it. All I was coming up with was the scripture where we're supposed to meet together oft etc, which I don't think is specific enough to the sacrament. Of course it's also pretty telling that Moroni takes the time to detail the exact sacrament prayer.
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 11:53 pm
Most people consider commandments to be part of doctrine. So what are they?
They are simply commandments. Obeying the commandments won't keep us from being received by the gates of hell, which is what the Savior explicitly states His doctrine will do for us. We may obey commandments as a result of believing Christ and being repentant, but that's an effect of the doctrine, not a cause, and contains no 'juice' or magic power in and of itself. Christ cannot lie, he told us explicitly anything added to or taken away from his explicitly stated doctrine comes of evil and leads to destruction.
Right. So like I said, his doctrine for admission to kingdom is just that. He taught more than that, and we should too.
Yes. Teach more than that but don't call it doctrine and don't teach anything that disrupts or nullifies the doctrine. The spirit will witness whether what you teach outside of the doctrine is true or not.

Peace,
Amonhi

Artaxerxes
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Posts: 2298

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Artaxerxes »

Amonhi wrote: July 31st, 2022, 5:28 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 30th, 2022, 10:51 am
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 30th, 2022, 7:45 am
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 11:53 pm

3 Ne 18:6
Thanks, that confirms commandment status I think, paired with verse 5 before it. All I was coming up with was the scripture where we're supposed to meet together oft etc, which I don't think is specific enough to the sacrament. Of course it's also pretty telling that Moroni takes the time to detail the exact sacrament prayer.
Artaxerxes wrote: July 29th, 2022, 11:53 pm
Most people consider commandments to be part of doctrine. So what are they?
They are simply commandments. Obeying the commandments won't keep us from being received by the gates of hell, which is what the Savior explicitly states His doctrine will do for us. We may obey commandments as a result of believing Christ and being repentant, but that's an effect of the doctrine, not a cause, and contains no 'juice' or magic power in and of itself. Christ cannot lie, he told us explicitly anything added to or taken away from his explicitly stated doctrine comes of evil and leads to destruction.
Right. So like I said, his doctrine for admission to kingdom is just that. He taught more than that, and we should too.
Yes. Teach more than that but don't call it doctrine and don't teach anything that disrupts or nullifies the doctrine. The spirit will witness whether what you teach outside of the doctrine is true or not.

Peace,
Amonhi
So we just play word games? Doctrine is: a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group.

You guys are proposing we teach a set of beliefs, but as long as we play games with ordinary words and don't call what is obvious doctrine something other than doctrine, then it's okay?

I don't think God cares about these word games as much as you guys seem to.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 31st, 2022, 5:32 pm
Amonhi wrote: July 31st, 2022, 5:28 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 30th, 2022, 10:51 am
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 30th, 2022, 7:45 am

Thanks, that confirms commandment status I think, paired with verse 5 before it. All I was coming up with was the scripture where we're supposed to meet together oft etc, which I don't think is specific enough to the sacrament. Of course it's also pretty telling that Moroni takes the time to detail the exact sacrament prayer.



They are simply commandments. Obeying the commandments won't keep us from being received by the gates of hell, which is what the Savior explicitly states His doctrine will do for us. We may obey commandments as a result of believing Christ and being repentant, but that's an effect of the doctrine, not a cause, and contains no 'juice' or magic power in and of itself. Christ cannot lie, he told us explicitly anything added to or taken away from his explicitly stated doctrine comes of evil and leads to destruction.
Right. So like I said, his doctrine for admission to kingdom is just that. He taught more than that, and we should too.
Yes. Teach more than that but don't call it doctrine and don't teach anything that disrupts or nullifies the doctrine. The spirit will witness whether what you teach outside of the doctrine is true or not.

Peace,
Amonhi
So we just play word games? Doctrine is: a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group.

You guys are proposing we teach a set of beliefs, but as long as we play games with ordinary words and don't call what is obvious doctrine something other than doctrine, then it's okay?

I don't think God cares about these word games as much as you guys seem to.
He says he cares very much about these 'word games'. He's explicitly specific about what constitutes 'doctrine', and any idiot who adds to or takes away from it is practicing evil (sure, could be out of ignorance). But He cannot lie, so YES, he cares.

The problem is that in mormon culture we throw around the term 'doctrine' incredibly loosely, including everything and the kitchen sink under that umbrella. According to what Christ explicitly states in 3 Nephi, the fact that the ldscorp doesn't teach Christ's doctrine correctly is plenty good reason get alarmed about whose church it really is (2 churches only).

Christ defines the purpose of his doctrine in that section also: it's a get-out-of-hell card. Correction: it's the only get-out-of-hell card.

Best practices, wise sayings, traditions, ceremonies, priesthood, tithing, commandments, temple covenants, plural marriage, etc - None of these are part of Christ's doctrine (save only the commandments to believe/repent and be baptized, and then inexorably and unavoidably we will receive fire/Holy Ghost). Doesn't mean these other practices/ordinances/commandments aren't good things, or real commandments (though some may be false, which is what the Holy Ghost will guide us away from if so). But whenever some idiot teaches these other things are part of the doctrine, that is false teaching that comes of evil. Don't like it? Sound too mean or unfair? Take it up with Christ; he's the one who said it.

Christ doctrine is what is needed for salvation. Ldscorp culture confuses the issue by throwing in the extra-special VIP package for Heaven+, which we term 'Exaltation'. Which like the premium upgrade plan, which apparently maybe you need to do lots more things, like sing the national anthem backwards while hopping on one foot, or engage in gadianton secret combinations in the temple, or engage in 'lying for the lord' while taking lots of wives on the down-low, etc. Maybe there's something to 'exaltation', maybe there's not, I'd like to see some solid scriptures from the Book of Mormon backing it up, showing that the Savior talked about this upgrade package plan, but when he spoke about his doctrine, he wasn't talking about any of that stuff.

He's super specific on what comprises doctrine, and yes, I think it matters, and isn't just pedantic.

Artaxerxes
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Posts: 2298

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Artaxerxes »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 31st, 2022, 10:58 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 31st, 2022, 5:32 pm
Amonhi wrote: July 31st, 2022, 5:28 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 30th, 2022, 10:51 am

Right. So like I said, his doctrine for admission to kingdom is just that. He taught more than that, and we should too.
Yes. Teach more than that but don't call it doctrine and don't teach anything that disrupts or nullifies the doctrine. The spirit will witness whether what you teach outside of the doctrine is true or not.

Peace,
Amonhi
So we just play word games? Doctrine is: a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group.

You guys are proposing we teach a set of beliefs, but as long as we play games with ordinary words and don't call what is obvious doctrine something other than doctrine, then it's okay?

I don't think God cares about these word games as much as you guys seem to.
He says he cares very much about these 'word games'. He's explicitly specific about what constitutes 'doctrine', and any idiot who adds to or takes away from it is practicing evil (sure, could be out of ignorance). But He cannot lie, so YES, he cares.

The problem is that in mormon culture we throw around the term 'doctrine' incredibly loosely, including everything and the kitchen sink under that umbrella. According to what Christ explicitly states in 3 Nephi, the fact that the ldscorp doesn't teach Christ's doctrine correctly is plenty good reason get alarmed about whose church it really is (2 churches only).

Christ defines the purpose of his doctrine in that section also: it's a get-out-of-hell card. Correction: it's the only get-out-of-hell card.

Best practices, wise sayings, traditions, ceremonies, priesthood, tithing, commandments, temple covenants, plural marriage, etc - None of these are part of Christ's doctrine (save only the commandments to believe/repent and be baptized, and then inexorably and unavoidably we will receive fire/Holy Ghost). Doesn't mean these other practices/ordinances/commandments aren't good things, or real commandments (though some may be false, which is what the Holy Ghost will guide us away from if so). But whenever some idiot teaches these other things are part of the doctrine, that is false teaching that comes of evil. Don't like it? Sound too mean or unfair? Take it up with Christ; he's the one who said it.

Christ doctrine is what is needed for salvation. Ldscorp culture confuses the issue by throwing in the extra-special VIP package for Heaven+, which we term 'Exaltation'. Which like the premium upgrade plan, which apparently maybe you need to do lots more things, like sing the national anthem backwards while hopping on one foot, or engage in gadianton secret combinations in the temple, or engage in 'lying for the lord' while taking lots of wives on the down-low, etc. Maybe there's something to 'exaltation', maybe there's not, I'd like to see some solid scriptures from the Book of Mormon backing it up, showing that the Savior talked about this upgrade package plan, but when he spoke about his doctrine, he wasn't talking about any of that stuff.

He's super specific on what comprises doctrine, and yes, I think it matters, and isn't just pedantic.
No. He says it is his doctrine for entrance to his kingdom. And that still stands. Playing these games of what is a commandment versus doctrine versus a teaching is just silly. Jesus wasn't being pedantic. You are.

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Redpilled Mormon
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Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Redpilled Mormon »

Artaxerxes wrote: July 31st, 2022, 11:03 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 31st, 2022, 10:58 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 31st, 2022, 5:32 pm
Amonhi wrote: July 31st, 2022, 5:28 pm
Yes. Teach more than that but don't call it doctrine and don't teach anything that disrupts or nullifies the doctrine. The spirit will witness whether what you teach outside of the doctrine is true or not.

Peace,
Amonhi
So we just play word games? Doctrine is: a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group.

You guys are proposing we teach a set of beliefs, but as long as we play games with ordinary words and don't call what is obvious doctrine something other than doctrine, then it's okay?

I don't think God cares about these word games as much as you guys seem to.
He says he cares very much about these 'word games'. He's explicitly specific about what constitutes 'doctrine', and any idiot who adds to or takes away from it is practicing evil (sure, could be out of ignorance). But He cannot lie, so YES, he cares.

The problem is that in mormon culture we throw around the term 'doctrine' incredibly loosely, including everything and the kitchen sink under that umbrella. According to what Christ explicitly states in 3 Nephi, the fact that the ldscorp doesn't teach Christ's doctrine correctly is plenty good reason get alarmed about whose church it really is (2 churches only).

Christ defines the purpose of his doctrine in that section also: it's a get-out-of-hell card. Correction: it's the only get-out-of-hell card.

Best practices, wise sayings, traditions, ceremonies, priesthood, tithing, commandments, temple covenants, plural marriage, etc - None of these are part of Christ's doctrine (save only the commandments to believe/repent and be baptized, and then inexorably and unavoidably we will receive fire/Holy Ghost). Doesn't mean these other practices/ordinances/commandments aren't good things, or real commandments (though some may be false, which is what the Holy Ghost will guide us away from if so). But whenever some idiot teaches these other things are part of the doctrine, that is false teaching that comes of evil. Don't like it? Sound too mean or unfair? Take it up with Christ; he's the one who said it.

Christ doctrine is what is needed for salvation. Ldscorp culture confuses the issue by throwing in the extra-special VIP package for Heaven+, which we term 'Exaltation'. Which like the premium upgrade plan, which apparently maybe you need to do lots more things, like sing the national anthem backwards while hopping on one foot, or engage in gadianton secret combinations in the temple, or engage in 'lying for the lord' while taking lots of wives on the down-low, etc. Maybe there's something to 'exaltation', maybe there's not, I'd like to see some solid scriptures from the Book of Mormon backing it up, showing that the Savior talked about this upgrade package plan, but when he spoke about his doctrine, he wasn't talking about any of that stuff.

He's super specific on what comprises doctrine, and yes, I think it matters, and isn't just pedantic.
No. He says it is his doctrine for entrance to his kingdom. And that still stands. Playing these games of what is a commandment versus doctrine versus a teaching is just silly. Jesus wasn't being pedantic. You are.
I'm the one saying he was NOT being pedantic. He was NOT being wishy-washy. He was NOT stumbling over his words. He repeated the doctrine 3 times, to be absolutely crystal clear, explicitly condemned anyone who added to or took away from it, and yet there are still people like you in deep cognitive dissonance maintaining that 'he didn't really mean what he said'.

Fine, take it up with him. I'm sure he'll appreciate you correcting his grammar and meaning for him.

As for me, I'm going to go with what he actually said, rather than the LIE that Christ's doctrine is unimportant, or nebulous, or encompasses whatever the hot new thing ldscorp finds expedient to put in the mix this week.

Artaxerxes
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2298

Re: Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

Post by Artaxerxes »

Redpilled Mormon wrote: August 1st, 2022, 12:43 am
Artaxerxes wrote: July 31st, 2022, 11:03 pm
Redpilled Mormon wrote: July 31st, 2022, 10:58 pm
Artaxerxes wrote: July 31st, 2022, 5:32 pm

So we just play word games? Doctrine is: a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group.

You guys are proposing we teach a set of beliefs, but as long as we play games with ordinary words and don't call what is obvious doctrine something other than doctrine, then it's okay?

I don't think God cares about these word games as much as you guys seem to.
He says he cares very much about these 'word games'. He's explicitly specific about what constitutes 'doctrine', and any idiot who adds to or takes away from it is practicing evil (sure, could be out of ignorance). But He cannot lie, so YES, he cares.

The problem is that in mormon culture we throw around the term 'doctrine' incredibly loosely, including everything and the kitchen sink under that umbrella. According to what Christ explicitly states in 3 Nephi, the fact that the ldscorp doesn't teach Christ's doctrine correctly is plenty good reason get alarmed about whose church it really is (2 churches only).

Christ defines the purpose of his doctrine in that section also: it's a get-out-of-hell card. Correction: it's the only get-out-of-hell card.

Best practices, wise sayings, traditions, ceremonies, priesthood, tithing, commandments, temple covenants, plural marriage, etc - None of these are part of Christ's doctrine (save only the commandments to believe/repent and be baptized, and then inexorably and unavoidably we will receive fire/Holy Ghost). Doesn't mean these other practices/ordinances/commandments aren't good things, or real commandments (though some may be false, which is what the Holy Ghost will guide us away from if so). But whenever some idiot teaches these other things are part of the doctrine, that is false teaching that comes of evil. Don't like it? Sound too mean or unfair? Take it up with Christ; he's the one who said it.

Christ doctrine is what is needed for salvation. Ldscorp culture confuses the issue by throwing in the extra-special VIP package for Heaven+, which we term 'Exaltation'. Which like the premium upgrade plan, which apparently maybe you need to do lots more things, like sing the national anthem backwards while hopping on one foot, or engage in gadianton secret combinations in the temple, or engage in 'lying for the lord' while taking lots of wives on the down-low, etc. Maybe there's something to 'exaltation', maybe there's not, I'd like to see some solid scriptures from the Book of Mormon backing it up, showing that the Savior talked about this upgrade package plan, but when he spoke about his doctrine, he wasn't talking about any of that stuff.

He's super specific on what comprises doctrine, and yes, I think it matters, and isn't just pedantic.
No. He says it is his doctrine for entrance to his kingdom. And that still stands. Playing these games of what is a commandment versus doctrine versus a teaching is just silly. Jesus wasn't being pedantic. You are.
I'm the one saying he was NOT being pedantic. He was NOT being wishy-washy. He was NOT stumbling over his words. He repeated the doctrine 3 times, to be absolutely crystal clear, explicitly condemned anyone who added to or took away from it, and yet there are still people like you in deep cognitive dissonance maintaining that 'he didn't really mean what he said'.

Fine, take it up with him. I'm sure he'll appreciate you correcting his grammar and meaning for him.

As for me, I'm going to go with what he actually said, rather than the LIE that Christ's doctrine is unimportant, or nebulous, or encompasses whatever the hot new thing ldscorp finds expedient to put in the mix this week.
Yeah, he meant what he said: this was the doctrine for admission to the kingdom. Then he went on to give us more doctrine. I choose not to reject God's words because I think I have enough.

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