Looking Beyond the Mark: The Davidic Servant

[Zathura]

Scriptures referring to Jesus are now frequently being changed to refer to this Davidic Servant. On blogs or forums unrelated to those I know in this forum , I see people going nuts over this topic. I believe those who have become obsessed with this doctrine may be looking beyond the mark.

The only things absolutely necessary for your Salvation are taught early, and often in the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. The doctrine of Christ, the Spiritual rebirth. This Davidic Servant will come, but he is not a central theme of the fullness of the Gospel as found within the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. He also was not a central theme of Joseph Smith's sermons, or any President for that matter.

If you've passed this up, and misunderstand this simple doctrine, and have not yet been truly Born of God and yet you find yourself obsessing over this idea of the Davidic Servant, cross referencing out of context scriptures and dead sea scrolls and random symbolisms to try and prove how important this topic is while at the same time spending no time on the doctrine of Christ, spiritual rebirth, you might be looking beyond the mark.

keyword: MIGHT. I don't know you. This is between each of us and our God.

[abijah`]

what scriptures are being misinterpreted?

who is the old testament jehovah? many anti-last days figure interpretations like mcconkie say its jesus AND eloheim. this is the main lds issue with davidic servant prophecies. its as anti-godhead of a doctrine as the nicene creed, that jesus is two people at once who talks to himself.

there were reasons many jews rejected jesus. its because he didnt do a lot of things the "messiah" was prophesied to. which is why mcconkie had to come up with the "millennial messiah" concept out of whole cloth, putting a resurrected jesus in a millennial setting to fulfil these things, which makes no sense. maybe there were reasons mcconkie was taken so young.

[mahalanobis]

Agreed. So much dogma had been heaped upon this idea that a ton of people are gonna be disappointed.

I do think it's interesting, but I agree with your statements regarding the fullness of the gospel and the core of salvation.

[SPIRIT]

Scriptures referring to Jesus are now frequently being changed to refer to this Davidic Servant. On blogs or forums unrelated to those I know in this forum , I see people going nuts over this topic. I believe those who have become obsessed with this doctrine may be looking beyond the mark.

The only things absolutely necessary for your Salvation are taught early, and often in the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. The doctrine of Christ, the Spiritual rebirth. This Davidic Servant will come, but he is not a central theme of the fullness of the Gospel as found within the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. He also was not a central theme of Joseph Smith's sermons, or any President for that matter.

If you've passed this up, and misunderstand this simple doctrine, and have not yet been truly Born of God and yet you find yourself obsessing over this idea of the Davidic Servant, cross referencing out of context scriptures and dead sea scrolls and random symbolisms to try and prove how important this topic is while at the same time spending no time on the doctrine of Christ, spiritual rebirth, you might be looking beyond the mark.

keyword: MIGHT. I don't know you. This is between each of us and our God.

I will have to respectively DISAGREE.
I think you must have skipped over some scriptures somewhere.
And I think in this case; how important this servant is, it would be hard to, as you say "Looking Beyond the Mark".
Here is why his coming and us looking for him and accepting him is extremely important,
because if we don't, we can be "cut off from among my people who are of the covenant."
Our only hope is to be numbered with The House of Israel - the Lord's covenant people.
" The Lord has ordained no salvation or plan of salvation outside of the covenant with His people Israel"

(1)
As many of us who care about the scriptures know that in the Book of Mormon
Jesus said:
3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

2 "For surely he spake as touching all things
concerning my people which are of the house of Israel;
therefore it must needs be that he must speak
also to the Gentiles."

3 "And all things that he spake have been and shall be,
even according to the words which he spake."

4 "Therefore give heed to my words;
write the things which I have told you;
and according to the time and the will
of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles."

So here we have the Lord Himself giving us a commandment
that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."
Sounds pretty important to me.

(2)
So now we are "searching diligently" the book Isaiah as the Lord commanded,
and what do we come to find ?, that this Davidic Servant is the main theme in this book.
I think that makes him very important.

(3)
Why he is so important, and our salvation in an indirect way may depend on accepting him
is because he will be representing Christ; because he will bring the words of Christ, (sealed portion)
and whether we accept him and Christ's words or not, will greatly determine our destiny and future -
of gathering and prepare to join Zion, or harden our hearts to our own condemnation and destruction.

Gileadi
page 4
The Gathering of Israel’s Outcasts from Exile

A hard fact of Isaiah’s end-time scenario is that it is not those who appear to be God’s people whom God saves in the end but those who are rejected by the majority. These “outcasts” suffer “reproach” and “ridicule,” are “excluded” from God’s people, and, like God’s servant who gathers them, are “despised” and “abhorred” until God reverses their circumstances (Isaiah 49:7–8; 51:7; 60:15–16; 61:7, 9; 66:5–8). In the end, those who are excluded and betrayed by their own people, are gathered with God’s righteous remnant: “Thus says my Lord Jehovah, who gathers up the outcasts of Israel: ‘I will gather others to those already gathered’” (Isaiah 56:3, 8).

Isaiah 24:5
5 "The earth lies polluted under its inhabitants:
they have transgressed the laws,
changed the ordinances, set at nought the ancient covenant."

explanation:
"Causing these curses is the wickedness of Jehovah’s people, who have altered his “ordinances” or “ritual” and perverted his “laws” or “doctrine” , thereby violating Jehovah’s covenant and rendering it void.
Jehovah’s servant, who personifies Jehovah’s covenant (Isaiah 42:6; 49:8), they likewise set at nought (Isaiah 49:7; 50:5-11; 52:14)."

So great is this challenge, in fact, that many Gentiles will not accept it.
Instead, they will reject the words of Christ, and be "cut off" as
bitter branches, from His people (3 Nephi 21:11"

We Gentiles, and also the entire World, will have two choices when the Davidic King arrives: we will either
(1) harden our hearts to our own condemnation and destruction; or else
(2) we will repent and prepare to join Zion.
There will be a complete division between the righteous and the wicked in that day."
end quote

3 Nephi 21

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.



The Book of Mormon contains less than a hundredth part of Jesus' words to the Nephites. Yet, in the last days, the fullness of Jesus' words comes forth to the Gentiles in accordance with the servant's mission.
The plates of Nephi contain the greater part of what Jesus taught the people.
They, therefore, are among the "other books" to come forth. They "make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world".
They make known also the folly and abominations of the Gentiles.
Prophecies about the Gentiles in the latter days thus show two facets. Those Gentiles who are under condemnation- which causes the Lord to withhold from them the greater things- will remain under condemnation if they do not repent.
For that reason, the Gentiles must turn from their evil ways. Those Gentiles who make their calling and election sure, to whom the Lord reveals the greater things, do not, of course, represent all the Gentiles. In the latter days, the gospel turns first to the Gentiles. But when many of them reject it, the gospel turns to the Jews and other natural lineages of Israel.

***Moroni saw that many Gentiles would mock the Brother of Jared's vision. Moroni writes that vision in the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. Many Gentiles too, will not believe the great and marvelous work - will not believe the words of Christ. Of the words of Christ coming forth in the day, the Gentiles will say, "A Bible!, A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible".
The Words of Christ and the Brother of Jared's vision cover the entire history of humanity. In that respect, they resemble the Bible more than the Book of Mormon does. The two full accounts will come forth to the Gentiles- when some Gentiles become sanctified as the Brother of Jared - and turn from the Gentiles to the house of Israel.

From these scriptures , we gain a clearer idea of how so many Gentiles will sin against the gospel of Jesus Christ . They will disavow the new revelations the Lord will bring forth. Having formerly received the gospel, many Gentiles will now reject it. Instead of repenting of their iniquities, they will harden their hearts and deny the Lord of Hosts. Refusing to come unto Christ and obey his voice, these Gentiles will be as "salt that hath lost its savor".
At the time they reject the gospel, the wicked Gentiles are "lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations". They are "filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations". Being "lifted up in the pride of their eyes", they "put down the power and miracles of God". Publishing for money, they "preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor".
(3 Nephi 16:10)

These Gentiles have no charity for their fellow beings. They don't thank the Jews nor Lehi's descendants for the scriptures they have received from them. Instead, they curse and hate them and will not recover them. (please see below *** (A) )
The Lord lengthens out his arm to the Gentiles all the day long. But they mar the Lord's servant who brings forth His words. Their rejecting the Lord's servant and their rejecting the gospel doubly testifies of their apostasy; Nephi, therefore, offers no hope for the Gentiles unless they reconcile themselves to Christ.
Although the Gentiles know God's decrees on this land, many allow secret combinations to get above them. Drunken with iniquity and all manner of abominations, they suffer woes- God's covenant curse.
When they reject his words, the Lord cuts them off from his people.
He removes the fullness of his gospel from among the wicked, giving it to those who will receive it.
With the wicked Gentiles' apostasy and its aftermath, the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The Lord turns the iniquities of the Gentiles upon their own heads. He comes out in justice against them. The wicked Gentiles bring down the fullness of God's wrath, just as the Jaredites and Nephites did. The Lord visits the Gentiles "with thunder and with earthquake, and with a great noise, and with storm, and with tempest, and with the flame of devouring fire". The sword of justices falls on the wicked Gentiles. He destroys the Gentiles; cities and chariots and executes vengeance and fury upon them.
He covers their land with a desolating sickness. A scourge consumes the wicked.
The unrepentant Gentiles cannot stand before God's power. Lehi's descendants, whom God empowers, marshal themselves and vex the wicked Gentiles.
They go among the Gentiles like a lion among the beasts, treading down and tearing to pieces. Lehi's descendants, who are of the house of Israel, inherit the Gentiles' lands and cities. The Lord reestablishes Lehi's descendants in this land, even as the wicked Gentiles perish.

[John Tavner]

Yes, that is what is most tragic, is I believe that many people have made the Davidic Servant more of a God than The Lord, Jesus Christ. Are their thoughts more on the Lord and His mercies and gratitude to Him, or upon the DS. Jesus Christ IS the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE (John 14:6). There is NO other way whereby man can be saved except by and through the Jesus Christ. We are told to that if we do not love we do not know Jesus Christ (1 John 4:8) and then we are told that love is the most important gift and all other gifts shall pass away except love (1 Corinth 13). We are told to pray for it with all our heart and if we don't have it we are nothing (Moroni 7:46). In order to become love we must know the Lord - and if we know the Son we know the Father (John 14:7). Since Christ is the pure love of God (see Lehi's vision), we know that when we know Christ we know the Father. The Lord gives us a method by which we can come to the Father and it is by His blood we are made righteous and can Know HIm. There is no other way.(Acts 4:12). We must seek Him and receive Him to know the Father so that we can receive eternal life (John 17:3). It doesn't matter if you have all the truth on the matter, if one is not born again by FAITH on Christ then it matters nothing. If we begin to worship this Davidic servant more then the LOrd, then we are putting other God's before Him. We are told to Love the Lord our God with all our heart, might, mind and strength. I'm not saying there isn't a Davidic servant, but we need to remember that it is Jesus that saves our souls. I will repeat, Jesus Christ is the Way, the truth, and the Life, there is no other way whereby man can be saved but by Him.

If you know the Lord, you will know His servants.

[LDS Watchman]

The emphasis should absolutely be on Christ.

However, we are also to look for the servant of the Lord who will prepare the way for the Lord's return.

This servant has a few different names, such as Elias who will restore all things, the One Mighty and Strong, and the Davidic servant or king.

We should be looking for him, because he will come before the Lord comes to prepare the way for his return. One of the ways he will prepare the way for the Lord is to restore the kingdom of Israel in the latter days.

Hosea 3

For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.

[SPIRIT]

I respect much both John Tavner and Matthias, and totally agree with them,
So, I guess in some ways, I also do agree with the OP.
but I also think there is some things also to think about in my comment
that are very important to understand.

[Contemplator]

Let’s see what Nephi has to say. He is one of the most prolific quoters of Isaiah. 2 Nephi 11:

2 And now I, Nephi, write more of the words of Isaiah, for my soul delighteth in his words. For I will liken his words unto my people, and I will send them forth unto all my children, for he verily saw my Redeemer, even as I have seen him.
3 And my brother, Jacob, also has seen him as I have seen him; wherefore, I will send their words forth unto my children to prove unto them that my words are true. Wherefore, by the words of three, God hath said, I will establish my word. Nevertheless, God sendeth more witnesses, and he proveth all his words.
4 Behold, my soul delighteth in proving unto my people the truth of the coming of Christ; for, for this end hath the law of Moses been given; and all things which have been given of God from the beginning of the world, unto man, are the typifying of him.
5 And also my soul delighteth in the covenants of the Lord which he hath made to our fathers; yea, my soul delighteth in his grace, and in his justice, and power, and mercy in the great and eternal plan of deliverance from death.
6 And my soul delighteth in proving unto my people that save Christ should come all men must perish.
7 For if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he cometh in the fulness of his own time.

It seems that the point of Nephi quoting Isaiah is much like the purpose of the Book of Mormon. The remind us of the covenant and of Christ’s central role. Recall from the title page describing the purpose of the Book of Mormon:

“—Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—“

[zacary]

I have a simple question for those thinking that those who are all into the DS are looking beyond the mark.

If he IS going to be the Lord's Rep..... Then he will SPEAK AS THE LORD. Looking for the Lord's Rep would be LIKE looking for the Lord Himself....NAY ? Only he is a Necessary JUMP START to CORRECTING errors concerning the Lord that many have made. You want to meet the Lord UNPREPARED ?

How many in the Lord's Day would have even RECOGNIZED the Lord without JOHN ? Careful who you reject as someone who causes some of us to "Look beyond the Mark". There was 400 years of apostasy before John showed up to CORRECT a few things to make it POSSIBLE for those who ACCEPTED the Lord, to be able to RECOGNIZE Him through John.

LIKEWISE...Our Day is STEEPED in Apostasy, for which we BETTER HOPE that God Sends a FORERUNNER Like John to CORRECT Our Vision...Or we will find ourselves looking through Dark Colored Glasses & WONDERING.....Who IS this Strange Man. Even stranger than John was to the Jews in power in his day.

If you have a hard time WONDERING WHY God sees a NEED for a Forerunner to the Coming of the Lord.....I would suggest that is is YOU who are "Looking BENEATH the Mark". Be Careful of that.

[Zathura]

Scriptures referring to Jesus are now frequently being changed to refer to this Davidic Servant. On blogs or forums unrelated to those I know in this forum , I see people going nuts over this topic. I believe those who have become obsessed with this doctrine may be looking beyond the mark.

The only things absolutely necessary for your Salvation are taught early, and often in the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. The doctrine of Christ, the Spiritual rebirth. This Davidic Servant will come, but he is not a central theme of the fullness of the Gospel as found within the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. He also was not a central theme of Joseph Smith's sermons, or any President for that matter.

If you've passed this up, and misunderstand this simple doctrine, and have not yet been truly Born of God and yet you find yourself obsessing over this idea of the Davidic Servant, cross referencing out of context scriptures and dead sea scrolls and random symbolisms to try and prove how important this topic is while at the same time spending no time on the doctrine of Christ, spiritual rebirth, you might be looking beyond the mark.

keyword: MIGHT. I don't know you. This is between each of us and our God.

I will have to respectively DISAGREE.
I think you must have skipped over some scriptures somewhere.
And I think in this case; how important this servant is, it would be hard to, as you say "Looking Beyond the Mark".
Here is why his coming and us looking for him and accepting him is extremely important,
because if we don't, we can be "cut off from among my people who are of the covenant."
Our only hope is to be numbered with The House of Israel - the Lord's covenant people.
" The Lord has ordained no salvation or plan of salvation outside of the covenant with His people Israel"

(1)
As many of us who care about the scriptures know that in the Book of Mormon
Jesus said:
3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

2 "For surely he spake as touching all things
concerning my people which are of the house of Israel;
therefore it must needs be that he must speak
also to the Gentiles."

3 "And all things that he spake have been and shall be,
even according to the words which he spake."

4 "Therefore give heed to my words;
write the things which I have told you;
and according to the time and the will
of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles."

So here we have the Lord Himself giving us a commandment
that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."
Sounds pretty important to me.

(2)
So now we are "searching diligently" the book Isaiah as the Lord commanded,
and what do we come to find ?, that this Davidic Servant is the main theme in this book.
I think that makes him very important.

(3)
Why he is so important, and our salvation in an indirect way may depend on accepting him
is because he will be representing Christ; because he will bring the words of Christ, (sealed portion)
and whether we accept him and Christ's words or not, will greatly determine our destiny and future -
of gathering and prepare to join Zion, or harden our hearts to our own condemnation and destruction.

Gileadi
page 4
The Gathering of Israel’s Outcasts from Exile

A hard fact of Isaiah’s end-time scenario is that it is not those who appear to be God’s people whom God saves in the end but those who are rejected by the majority. These “outcasts” suffer “reproach” and “ridicule,” are “excluded” from God’s people, and, like God’s servant who gathers them, are “despised” and “abhorred” until God reverses their circumstances (Isaiah 49:7–8; 51:7; 60:15–16; 61:7, 9; 66:5–8). In the end, those who are excluded and betrayed by their own people, are gathered with God’s righteous remnant: “Thus says my Lord Jehovah, who gathers up the outcasts of Israel: ‘I will gather others to those already gathered’” (Isaiah 56:3, 8).

Isaiah 24:5
5 "The earth lies polluted under its inhabitants:
they have transgressed the laws,
changed the ordinances, set at nought the ancient covenant."

explanation:
"Causing these curses is the wickedness of Jehovah’s people, who have altered his “ordinances” or “ritual” and perverted his “laws” or “doctrine” , thereby violating Jehovah’s covenant and rendering it void.
Jehovah’s servant, who personifies Jehovah’s covenant (Isaiah 42:6; 49:8), they likewise set at nought (Isaiah 49:7; 50:5-11; 52:14)."

So great is this challenge, in fact, that many Gentiles will not accept it.
Instead, they will reject the words of Christ, and be "cut off" as
bitter branches, from His people (3 Nephi 21:11"

We Gentiles, and also the entire World, will have two choices when the Davidic King arrives: we will either
(1) harden our hearts to our own condemnation and destruction; or else
(2) we will repent and prepare to join Zion.
There will be a complete division between the righteous and the wicked in that day."
end quote

3 Nephi 21

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.



The Book of Mormon contains less than a hundredth part of Jesus' words to the Nephites. Yet, in the last days, the fullness of Jesus' words comes forth to the Gentiles in accordance with the servant's mission.
The plates of Nephi contain the greater part of what Jesus taught the people.
They, therefore, are among the "other books" to come forth. They "make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world".
They make known also the folly and abominations of the Gentiles.
Prophecies about the Gentiles in the latter days thus show two facets. Those Gentiles who are under condemnation- which causes the Lord to withhold from them the greater things- will remain under condemnation if they do not repent.
For that reason, the Gentiles must turn from their evil ways. Those Gentiles who make their calling and election sure, to whom the Lord reveals the greater things, do not, of course, represent all the Gentiles. In the latter days, the gospel turns first to the Gentiles. But when many of them reject it, the gospel turns to the Jews and other natural lineages of Israel.

***Moroni saw that many Gentiles would mock the Brother of Jared's vision. Moroni writes that vision in the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. Many Gentiles too, will not believe the great and marvelous work - will not believe the words of Christ. Of the words of Christ coming forth in the day, the Gentiles will say, "A Bible!, A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible".
The Words of Christ and the Brother of Jared's vision cover the entire history of humanity. In that respect, they resemble the Bible more than the Book of Mormon does. The two full accounts will come forth to the Gentiles- when some Gentiles become sanctified as the Brother of Jared - and turn from the Gentiles to the house of Israel.

From these scriptures , we gain a clearer idea of how so many Gentiles will sin against the gospel of Jesus Christ . They will disavow the new revelations the Lord will bring forth. Having formerly received the gospel, many Gentiles will now reject it. Instead of repenting of their iniquities, they will harden their hearts and deny the Lord of Hosts. Refusing to come unto Christ and obey his voice, these Gentiles will be as "salt that hath lost its savor".
At the time they reject the gospel, the wicked Gentiles are "lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations". They are "filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations". Being "lifted up in the pride of their eyes", they "put down the power and miracles of God". Publishing for money, they "preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor".
(3 Nephi 16:10)

These Gentiles have no charity for their fellow beings. They don't thank the Jews nor Lehi's descendants for the scriptures they have received from them. Instead, they curse and hate them and will not recover them. (please see below *** (A) )
The Lord lengthens out his arm to the Gentiles all the day long. But they mar the Lord's servant who brings forth His words. Their rejecting the Lord's servant and their rejecting the gospel doubly testifies of their apostasy; Nephi, therefore, offers no hope for the Gentiles unless they reconcile themselves to Christ.
Although the Gentiles know God's decrees on this land, many allow secret combinations to get above them. Drunken with iniquity and all manner of abominations, they suffer woes- God's covenant curse.
When they reject his words, the Lord cuts them off from his people.
He removes the fullness of his gospel from among the wicked, giving it to those who will receive it.
With the wicked Gentiles' apostasy and its aftermath, the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The Lord turns the iniquities of the Gentiles upon their own heads. He comes out in justice against them. The wicked Gentiles bring down the fullness of God's wrath, just as the Jaredites and Nephites did. The Lord visits the Gentiles "with thunder and with earthquake, and with a great noise, and with storm, and with tempest, and with the flame of devouring fire". The sword of justices falls on the wicked Gentiles. He destroys the Gentiles; cities and chariots and executes vengeance and fury upon them.
He covers their land with a desolating sickness. A scourge consumes the wicked.
The unrepentant Gentiles cannot stand before God's power. Lehi's descendants, whom God empowers, marshal themselves and vex the wicked Gentiles.
They go among the Gentiles like a lion among the beasts, treading down and tearing to pieces. Lehi's descendants, who are of the house of Israel, inherit the Gentiles' lands and cities. The Lord reestablishes Lehi's descendants in this land, even as the wicked Gentiles perish.

That's okay, you're free to disagree . The Davidic Servant is real, he will certainly come and the bulk of what I've seen Alaris and others share is pretty solid and sturdy, but I maintain that I continually see people misapply scriptures to match their theory and that more emphasis should be placed on the doctrine of Christ.

[Zathura]

The emphasis should absolutely be on Christ.

However, we are also to look for the servant of the Lord who will prepare the way for the Lord's return.

This servant has a few different names, such as Elias who will restore all things, the One Mighty and Strong, and the Davidic servant or king.

We should be looking for him, because he will come before the Lord comes to prepare the way for his return. One of the ways he will prepare the way for the Lord is to restore the kingdom of Israel in the latter days.

Hosea 3

For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.

Great post

[Zathura]

Let’s see what Nephi has to say. He is one of the most prolific quoters of Isaiah. 2 Nephi 11:

2 And now I, Nephi, write more of the words of Isaiah, for my soul delighteth in his words. For I will liken his words unto my people, and I will send them forth unto all my children, for he verily saw my Redeemer, even as I have seen him.
3 And my brother, Jacob, also has seen him as I have seen him; wherefore, I will send their words forth unto my children to prove unto them that my words are true. Wherefore, by the words of three, God hath said, I will establish my word. Nevertheless, God sendeth more witnesses, and he proveth all his words.
4 Behold, my soul delighteth in proving unto my people the truth of the coming of Christ; for, for this end hath the law of Moses been given; and all things which have been given of God from the beginning of the world, unto man, are the typifying of him.
5 And also my soul delighteth in the covenants of the Lord which he hath made to our fathers; yea, my soul delighteth in his grace, and in his justice, and power, and mercy in the great and eternal plan of deliverance from death.
6 And my soul delighteth in proving unto my people that save Christ should come all men must perish.
7 For if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he cometh in the fulness of his own time.

It seems that the point of Nephi quoting Isaiah is much like the purpose of the Book of Mormon. The remind us of the covenant and of Christ’s central role. Recall from the title page describing the purpose of the Book of Mormon:

“—Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—“

Yep!

[Zathura]

I respect much both John Tavner and Matthias, and totally agree with them,
So, I guess in some ways, I also do agree with the OP.
but I also think there is some things also to think about in my comment
that are very important to understand.

I think we are on the same page

[darknesstolight]

Scriptures referring to Jesus are now frequently being changed to refer to this Davidic Servant. On blogs or forums unrelated to those I know in this forum , I see people going nuts over this topic. I believe those who have become obsessed with this doctrine may be looking beyond the mark.

The only things absolutely necessary for your Salvation are taught early, and often in the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. The doctrine of Christ, the Spiritual rebirth. This Davidic Servant will come, but he is not a central theme of the fullness of the Gospel as found within the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. He also was not a central theme of Joseph Smith's sermons, or any President for that matter.

If you've passed this up, and misunderstand this simple doctrine, and have not yet been truly Born of God and yet you find yourself obsessing over this idea of the Davidic Servant, cross referencing out of context scriptures and dead sea scrolls and random symbolisms to try and prove how important this topic is while at the same time spending no time on the doctrine of Christ, spiritual rebirth, you might be looking beyond the mark.

keyword: MIGHT. I don't know you. This is between each of us and our God.

I will have to respectively DISAGREE.
I think you must have skipped over some scriptures somewhere.
And I think in this case; how important this servant is, it would be hard to, as you say "Looking Beyond the Mark".
Here is why his coming and us looking for him and accepting him is extremely important,
because if we don't, we can be "cut off from among my people who are of the covenant."
Our only hope is to be numbered with The House of Israel - the Lord's covenant people.
" The Lord has ordained no salvation or plan of salvation outside of the covenant with His people Israel"

(1)
As many of us who care about the scriptures know that in the Book of Mormon
Jesus said:
3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

2 "For surely he spake as touching all things
concerning my people which are of the house of Israel;
therefore it must needs be that he must speak
also to the Gentiles."

3 "And all things that he spake have been and shall be,
even according to the words which he spake."

4 "Therefore give heed to my words;
write the things which I have told you;
and according to the time and the will
of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles."

So here we have the Lord Himself giving us a commandment
that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."
Sounds pretty important to me.

(2)
So now we are "searching diligently" the book Isaiah as the Lord commanded,
and what do we come to find ?, that this Davidic Servant is the main theme in this book.
I think that makes him very important.

(3)
Why he is so important, and our salvation in an indirect way may depend on accepting him
is because he will be representing Christ; because he will bring the words of Christ, (sealed portion)
and whether we accept him and Christ's words or not, will greatly determine our destiny and future -
of gathering and prepare to join Zion, or harden our hearts to our own condemnation and destruction.

Gileadi
page 4
The Gathering of Israel’s Outcasts from Exile

A hard fact of Isaiah’s end-time scenario is that it is not those who appear to be God’s people whom God saves in the end but those who are rejected by the majority. These “outcasts” suffer “reproach” and “ridicule,” are “excluded” from God’s people, and, like God’s servant who gathers them, are “despised” and “abhorred” until God reverses their circumstances (Isaiah 49:7–8; 51:7; 60:15–16; 61:7, 9; 66:5–8). In the end, those who are excluded and betrayed by their own people, are gathered with God’s righteous remnant: “Thus says my Lord Jehovah, who gathers up the outcasts of Israel: ‘I will gather others to those already gathered’” (Isaiah 56:3, 8).

Isaiah 24:5
5 "The earth lies polluted under its inhabitants:
they have transgressed the laws,
changed the ordinances, set at nought the ancient covenant."

explanation:
"Causing these curses is the wickedness of Jehovah’s people, who have altered his “ordinances” or “ritual” and perverted his “laws” or “doctrine” , thereby violating Jehovah’s covenant and rendering it void.
Jehovah’s servant, who personifies Jehovah’s covenant (Isaiah 42:6; 49:8), they likewise set at nought (Isaiah 49:7; 50:5-11; 52:14)."

So great is this challenge, in fact, that many Gentiles will not accept it.
Instead, they will reject the words of Christ, and be "cut off" as
bitter branches, from His people (3 Nephi 21:11"

We Gentiles, and also the entire World, will have two choices when the Davidic King arrives: we will either
(1) harden our hearts to our own condemnation and destruction; or else
(2) we will repent and prepare to join Zion.
There will be a complete division between the righteous and the wicked in that day."
end quote

3 Nephi 21

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.



The Book of Mormon contains less than a hundredth part of Jesus' words to the Nephites. Yet, in the last days, the fullness of Jesus' words comes forth to the Gentiles in accordance with the servant's mission.
The plates of Nephi contain the greater part of what Jesus taught the people.
They, therefore, are among the "other books" to come forth. They "make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world".
They make known also the folly and abominations of the Gentiles.
Prophecies about the Gentiles in the latter days thus show two facets. Those Gentiles who are under condemnation- which causes the Lord to withhold from them the greater things- will remain under condemnation if they do not repent.
For that reason, the Gentiles must turn from their evil ways. Those Gentiles who make their calling and election sure, to whom the Lord reveals the greater things, do not, of course, represent all the Gentiles. In the latter days, the gospel turns first to the Gentiles. But when many of them reject it, the gospel turns to the Jews and other natural lineages of Israel.

***Moroni saw that many Gentiles would mock the Brother of Jared's vision. Moroni writes that vision in the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. Many Gentiles too, will not believe the great and marvelous work - will not believe the words of Christ. Of the words of Christ coming forth in the day, the Gentiles will say, "A Bible!, A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible".
The Words of Christ and the Brother of Jared's vision cover the entire history of humanity. In that respect, they resemble the Bible more than the Book of Mormon does. The two full accounts will come forth to the Gentiles- when some Gentiles become sanctified as the Brother of Jared - and turn from the Gentiles to the house of Israel.

From these scriptures , we gain a clearer idea of how so many Gentiles will sin against the gospel of Jesus Christ . They will disavow the new revelations the Lord will bring forth. Having formerly received the gospel, many Gentiles will now reject it. Instead of repenting of their iniquities, they will harden their hearts and deny the Lord of Hosts. Refusing to come unto Christ and obey his voice, these Gentiles will be as "salt that hath lost its savor".
At the time they reject the gospel, the wicked Gentiles are "lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations". They are "filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations". Being "lifted up in the pride of their eyes", they "put down the power and miracles of God". Publishing for money, they "preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor".
(3 Nephi 16:10)

These Gentiles have no charity for their fellow beings. They don't thank the Jews nor Lehi's descendants for the scriptures they have received from them. Instead, they curse and hate them and will not recover them. (please see below *** (A) )
The Lord lengthens out his arm to the Gentiles all the day long. But they mar the Lord's servant who brings forth His words. Their rejecting the Lord's servant and their rejecting the gospel doubly testifies of their apostasy; Nephi, therefore, offers no hope for the Gentiles unless they reconcile themselves to Christ.
Although the Gentiles know God's decrees on this land, many allow secret combinations to get above them. Drunken with iniquity and all manner of abominations, they suffer woes- God's covenant curse.
When they reject his words, the Lord cuts them off from his people.
He removes the fullness of his gospel from among the wicked, giving it to those who will receive it.
With the wicked Gentiles' apostasy and its aftermath, the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The Lord turns the iniquities of the Gentiles upon their own heads. He comes out in justice against them. The wicked Gentiles bring down the fullness of God's wrath, just as the Jaredites and Nephites did. The Lord visits the Gentiles "with thunder and with earthquake, and with a great noise, and with storm, and with tempest, and with the flame of devouring fire". The sword of justices falls on the wicked Gentiles. He destroys the Gentiles; cities and chariots and executes vengeance and fury upon them.
He covers their land with a desolating sickness. A scourge consumes the wicked.
The unrepentant Gentiles cannot stand before God's power. Lehi's descendants, whom God empowers, marshal themselves and vex the wicked Gentiles.
They go among the Gentiles like a lion among the beasts, treading down and tearing to pieces. Lehi's descendants, who are of the house of Israel, inherit the Gentiles' lands and cities. The Lord reestablishes Lehi's descendants in this land, even as the wicked Gentiles perish.

I trust that if I follow the tenants of the Church of Christ (which Church is Charity) that I will know the Lord or His servants through the Spirit.

My feelings on this are secure and I feel absolutely at peace that I do not need to pursue the course of action you are suggesting. There are things for us to learn yet we can be secure knowing we can't go astray if we practice and focus our efforts in living as Christ or as Love does. We must preach repentance and baptism and fire because all else depends on it and then a man will be lead and guided by the Spirit and if they retain a remission of their sins they can't be lead astray.

...

[darknesstolight]

I have a simple question for those thinking that those who are all into the DS are looking beyond the mark.

If he IS going to be the Lord's Rep..... Then he will SPEAK AS THE LORD. Looking for the Lord's Rep would be LIKE looking for the Lord Himself....NAY ? Only he is a Necessary JUMP START to CORRECTING errors concerning the Lord that many have made. You want to meet the Lord UNPREPARED ?

How many in the Lord's Day would have even RECOGNIZED the Lord without JOHN ? Careful who you reject as someone who causes some of us to "Look beyond the Mark". There was 400 years of apostasy before John showed up to CORRECT a few things to make it POSSIBLE for those who ACCEPTED the Lord, to be able to RECOGNIZE Him through John.

LIKEWISE...Our Day is STEEPED in Apostasy, for which we BETTER HOPE that God Sends a FORERUNNER Like John to CORRECT Our Vision...Or we will find ourselves looking through Dark Colored Glasses & WONDERING.....Who IS this Strange Man. Even stranger than John was to the Jews in power in his day.

If you have a hard time WONDERING WHY God sees a NEED for a Forerunner to the Coming of the Lord.....I would suggest that is is YOU who are "Looking BENEATH the Mark". Be Careful of that.

Having a remission of our sins, receiving the Holy Ghost, and retaining a remission of our sins will necessarily and unavoidably prepare us to meet the Lord. The Spirit knows ALL things and can manifest all things to a man. Those who pratice charity after receiving the Spirit will retain that Spirit and they will be lead and guided in all needful things.

DS is true but so many have not yet received the Holy Ghost and are living in sin so we must preach faith in Jesus, repetance, and baptism for the remission of sins and the Holy Ghost.

...

[Zathura]

I have a simple question for those thinking that those who are all into the DS are looking beyond the mark.

If he IS going to be the Lord's Rep..... Then he will SPEAK AS THE LORD. Looking for the Lord's Rep would be LIKE looking for the Lord Himself....NAY ? Only he is a Necessary JUMP START to CORRECTING errors concerning the Lord that many have made. You want to meet the Lord UNPREPARED ?

How many in the Lord's Day would have even RECOGNIZED the Lord without JOHN ? Careful who you reject as someone who causes some of us to "Look beyond the Mark". There was 400 years of apostasy before John showed up to CORRECT a few things to make it POSSIBLE for those who ACCEPTED the Lord, to be able to RECOGNIZE Him through John.

LIKEWISE...Our Day is STEEPED in Apostasy, for which we BETTER HOPE that God Sends a FORERUNNER Like John to CORRECT Our Vision...Or we will find ourselves looking through Dark Colored Glasses & WONDERING.....Who IS this Strange Man. Even stranger than John was to the Jews in power in his day.

If you have a hard time WONDERING WHY God sees a NEED for a Forerunner to the Coming of the Lord.....I would suggest that is is YOU who are "Looking BENEATH the Mark". Be Careful of that.

Having a remission of our sins, receiving the Holy Ghost, and retaining a remission of our sins will necessarily and unavoidably prepare us to meet the Lord. The Spirit knows ALL things and can manifest all things to a man. Those who pratice charity after receiving the Spirit will retain that Spirit and they will be lead and guided in all needful things.

DS is true but so many have not yet received the Holy Ghost and are living in sin so we must preach faith in Jesus, repetance, and baptism for the remission of sins and the Holy Ghost.

...

Exactly. It doesn't matter if they recognize the servant , nothing will matter if they have not received the Spirit.

[SPIRIT]

Scriptures referring to Jesus are now frequently being changed to refer to this Davidic Servant. On blogs or forums unrelated to those I know in this forum , I see people going nuts over this topic. I believe those who have become obsessed with this doctrine may be looking beyond the mark.

The only things absolutely necessary for your Salvation are taught early, and often in the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. The doctrine of Christ, the Spiritual rebirth. This Davidic Servant will come, but he is not a central theme of the fullness of the Gospel as found within the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. He also was not a central theme of Joseph Smith's sermons, or any President for that matter.

If you've passed this up, and misunderstand this simple doctrine, and have not yet been truly Born of God and yet you find yourself obsessing over this idea of the Davidic Servant, cross referencing out of context scriptures and dead sea scrolls and random symbolisms to try and prove how important this topic is while at the same time spending no time on the doctrine of Christ, spiritual rebirth, you might be looking beyond the mark.

keyword: MIGHT. I don't know you. This is between each of us and our God.

I will have to respectively DISAGREE.
I think you must have skipped over some scriptures somewhere.
And I think in this case; how important this servant is, it would be hard to, as you say "Looking Beyond the Mark".
Here is why his coming and us looking for him and accepting him is extremely important,
because if we don't, we can be "cut off from among my people who are of the covenant."
Our only hope is to be numbered with The House of Israel - the Lord's covenant people.
" The Lord has ordained no salvation or plan of salvation outside of the covenant with His people Israel"

(1)
As many of us who care about the scriptures know that in the Book of Mormon
Jesus said:
3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

2 "For surely he spake as touching all things
concerning my people which are of the house of Israel;
therefore it must needs be that he must speak
also to the Gentiles."

3 "And all things that he spake have been and shall be,
even according to the words which he spake."

4 "Therefore give heed to my words;
write the things which I have told you;
and according to the time and the will
of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles."

So here we have the Lord Himself giving us a commandment
that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."
Sounds pretty important to me.

(2)
So now we are "searching diligently" the book Isaiah as the Lord commanded,
and what do we come to find ?, that this Davidic Servant is the main theme in this book.
I think that makes him very important.

(3)
Why he is so important, and our salvation in an indirect way may depend on accepting him
is because he will be representing Christ; because he will bring the words of Christ, (sealed portion)
and whether we accept him and Christ's words or not, will greatly determine our destiny and future -
of gathering and prepare to join Zion, or harden our hearts to our own condemnation and destruction.

Gileadi
page 4
The Gathering of Israel’s Outcasts from Exile

A hard fact of Isaiah’s end-time scenario is that it is not those who appear to be God’s people whom God saves in the end but those who are rejected by the majority. These “outcasts” suffer “reproach” and “ridicule,” are “excluded” from God’s people, and, like God’s servant who gathers them, are “despised” and “abhorred” until God reverses their circumstances (Isaiah 49:7–8; 51:7; 60:15–16; 61:7, 9; 66:5–8). In the end, those who are excluded and betrayed by their own people, are gathered with God’s righteous remnant: “Thus says my Lord Jehovah, who gathers up the outcasts of Israel: ‘I will gather others to those already gathered’” (Isaiah 56:3, 8).

Isaiah 24:5
5 "The earth lies polluted under its inhabitants:
they have transgressed the laws,
changed the ordinances, set at nought the ancient covenant."

explanation:
"Causing these curses is the wickedness of Jehovah’s people, who have altered his “ordinances” or “ritual” and perverted his “laws” or “doctrine” , thereby violating Jehovah’s covenant and rendering it void.
Jehovah’s servant, who personifies Jehovah’s covenant (Isaiah 42:6; 49:8), they likewise set at nought (Isaiah 49:7; 50:5-11; 52:14)."

So great is this challenge, in fact, that many Gentiles will not accept it.
Instead, they will reject the words of Christ, and be "cut off" as
bitter branches, from His people (3 Nephi 21:11"

We Gentiles, and also the entire World, will have two choices when the Davidic King arrives: we will either
(1) harden our hearts to our own condemnation and destruction; or else
(2) we will repent and prepare to join Zion.
There will be a complete division between the righteous and the wicked in that day."
end quote

3 Nephi 21

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.



The Book of Mormon contains less than a hundredth part of Jesus' words to the Nephites. Yet, in the last days, the fullness of Jesus' words comes forth to the Gentiles in accordance with the servant's mission.
The plates of Nephi contain the greater part of what Jesus taught the people.
They, therefore, are among the "other books" to come forth. They "make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world".
They make known also the folly and abominations of the Gentiles.
Prophecies about the Gentiles in the latter days thus show two facets. Those Gentiles who are under condemnation- which causes the Lord to withhold from them the greater things- will remain under condemnation if they do not repent.
For that reason, the Gentiles must turn from their evil ways. Those Gentiles who make their calling and election sure, to whom the Lord reveals the greater things, do not, of course, represent all the Gentiles. In the latter days, the gospel turns first to the Gentiles. But when many of them reject it, the gospel turns to the Jews and other natural lineages of Israel.

***Moroni saw that many Gentiles would mock the Brother of Jared's vision. Moroni writes that vision in the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. Many Gentiles too, will not believe the great and marvelous work - will not believe the words of Christ. Of the words of Christ coming forth in the day, the Gentiles will say, "A Bible!, A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible".
The Words of Christ and the Brother of Jared's vision cover the entire history of humanity. In that respect, they resemble the Bible more than the Book of Mormon does. The two full accounts will come forth to the Gentiles- when some Gentiles become sanctified as the Brother of Jared - and turn from the Gentiles to the house of Israel.

From these scriptures , we gain a clearer idea of how so many Gentiles will sin against the gospel of Jesus Christ . They will disavow the new revelations the Lord will bring forth. Having formerly received the gospel, many Gentiles will now reject it. Instead of repenting of their iniquities, they will harden their hearts and deny the Lord of Hosts. Refusing to come unto Christ and obey his voice, these Gentiles will be as "salt that hath lost its savor".
At the time they reject the gospel, the wicked Gentiles are "lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations". They are "filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations". Being "lifted up in the pride of their eyes", they "put down the power and miracles of God". Publishing for money, they "preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor".
(3 Nephi 16:10)

These Gentiles have no charity for their fellow beings. They don't thank the Jews nor Lehi's descendants for the scriptures they have received from them. Instead, they curse and hate them and will not recover them. (please see below *** (A) )
The Lord lengthens out his arm to the Gentiles all the day long. But they mar the Lord's servant who brings forth His words. Their rejecting the Lord's servant and their rejecting the gospel doubly testifies of their apostasy; Nephi, therefore, offers no hope for the Gentiles unless they reconcile themselves to Christ.
Although the Gentiles know God's decrees on this land, many allow secret combinations to get above them. Drunken with iniquity and all manner of abominations, they suffer woes- God's covenant curse.
When they reject his words, the Lord cuts them off from his people.
He removes the fullness of his gospel from among the wicked, giving it to those who will receive it.
With the wicked Gentiles' apostasy and its aftermath, the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The Lord turns the iniquities of the Gentiles upon their own heads. He comes out in justice against them. The wicked Gentiles bring down the fullness of God's wrath, just as the Jaredites and Nephites did. The Lord visits the Gentiles "with thunder and with earthquake, and with a great noise, and with storm, and with tempest, and with the flame of devouring fire". The sword of justices falls on the wicked Gentiles. He destroys the Gentiles; cities and chariots and executes vengeance and fury upon them.
He covers their land with a desolating sickness. A scourge consumes the wicked.
The unrepentant Gentiles cannot stand before God's power. Lehi's descendants, whom God empowers, marshal themselves and vex the wicked Gentiles.
They go among the Gentiles like a lion among the beasts, treading down and tearing to pieces. Lehi's descendants, who are of the house of Israel, inherit the Gentiles' lands and cities. The Lord reestablishes Lehi's descendants in this land, even as the wicked Gentiles perish.

I trust that if I follow the tenants of the Church of Christ (which Church is Charity) that I will know the Lord or His servants through the Spirit.

My feelings on this are secure and I feel absolutely at peace that I do not need to pursue the course of action you are suggesting. There are things for us to learn yet we can be secure knowing we can't go astray if we practice and focus our efforts in living as Christ or as Love does. We must preach repentance and baptism and fire because all else depends on it and then a man will be lead and guided by the Spirit and if they retain a remission of their sins they can't be lead astray.

...

thank you for expressing those truths.

So, for you, what exactly is this course of action, that you say I'm suggesting ?
if it's not just expressing what the scriptures are saying.
I try to have no opinion and let the scriptures speak for them selves.

[SPIRIT]

Let’s see what Nephi has to say. He is one of the most prolific quoters of Isaiah. 2 Nephi 11:

2 And now I, Nephi, write more of the words of Isaiah, for my soul delighteth in his words. For I will liken his words unto my people, and I will send them forth unto all my children, for he verily saw my Redeemer, even as I have seen him.
3 And my brother, Jacob, also has seen him as I have seen him; wherefore, I will send their words forth unto my children to prove unto them that my words are true. Wherefore, by the words of three, God hath said, I will establish my word. Nevertheless, God sendeth more witnesses, and he proveth all his words.
4 Behold, my soul delighteth in proving unto my people the truth of the coming of Christ; for, for this end hath the law of Moses been given; and all things which have been given of God from the beginning of the world, unto man, are the typifying of him.
5 And also my soul delighteth in the covenants of the Lord which he hath made to our fathers; yea, my soul delighteth in his grace, and in his justice, and power, and mercy in the great and eternal plan of deliverance from death.
6 And my soul delighteth in proving unto my people that save Christ should come all men must perish.
7 For if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he cometh in the fulness of his own time.

It seems that the point of Nephi quoting Isaiah is much like the purpose of the Book of Mormon. The remind us of the covenant and of Christ’s central role. Recall from the title page describing the purpose of the Book of Mormon:

“—Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—“

Yes "Let’s see what Nephi has to say. He is one of the most prolific quoters of Isaiah. "

Why did Nephi, of all places, stop in the middle of his own writing and quote
chapters 48 and 49 of of Isaiah (compare 1 Nephi 20 and 21) WHY ?
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/48#commentary
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/49#commentary
maybe he is trying to tell us something using Isaiah that he was forbidden to say, 1 Nephi 14:28
that he "durst not speak" 1Nephi 22:29.
Maybe by using Isaiah's words, he is trying to tell us something about the "Great and Marvelous work" - Israel's restoration,
"apostasy among the people of the Lord as the stage for his fulfillment of prophetic events,
a prophet's prophesying, the coming forth of new revelations, the Lord's servant hated by the wicked of his people,
the Lord's saving intervention, an endowment of divine power, Israel's physical restoration, a light amid apostasy,
release from bondage, a new exodus, a new wandering in the wilderness, divine guidance and miracles,
return from dispersion, assistance from Gentiles, the destruction of the wicked...."

Jehovah’s servant
Isaiah 49
2 He has made my mouth like a sharp sword—in the shadow of his hand he hid me.He has made me into a polished arrow—in his quiver he kept me secret.

Jehovah’s “hiding” and “secreting” his servant suggests that the world knows nothing of his calling until the time Jehovah empowers him. Even Jehovah’s people don’t know him or are ignorant of him until he fulfills his mission: “You will summon a nation that you did not know; a nation that did not know you will hasten to you” (Isaiah 55:5). He himself, therefore, is one of the “new things” Jehovah does suddenly that test the loyalty of his people (Isaiah 42:9; 48:6-8; 51:4-11). The terms mouth, sword, hand, and arrow designate Jehovah’s servant metaphorically (Isaiah 31:8; 51:16; 62:2-3).

[Contemplator]

Let’s see what Nephi has to say. He is one of the most prolific quoters of Isaiah. 2 Nephi 11:

2 And now I, Nephi, write more of the words of Isaiah, for my soul delighteth in his words. For I will liken his words unto my people, and I will send them forth unto all my children, for he verily saw my Redeemer, even as I have seen him.
3 And my brother, Jacob, also has seen him as I have seen him; wherefore, I will send their words forth unto my children to prove unto them that my words are true. Wherefore, by the words of three, God hath said, I will establish my word. Nevertheless, God sendeth more witnesses, and he proveth all his words.
4 Behold, my soul delighteth in proving unto my people the truth of the coming of Christ; for, for this end hath the law of Moses been given; and all things which have been given of God from the beginning of the world, unto man, are the typifying of him.
5 And also my soul delighteth in the covenants of the Lord which he hath made to our fathers; yea, my soul delighteth in his grace, and in his justice, and power, and mercy in the great and eternal plan of deliverance from death.
6 And my soul delighteth in proving unto my people that save Christ should come all men must perish.
7 For if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he cometh in the fulness of his own time.

It seems that the point of Nephi quoting Isaiah is much like the purpose of the Book of Mormon. The remind us of the covenant and of Christ’s central role. Recall from the title page describing the purpose of the Book of Mormon:

“—Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—“

Yes "Let’s see what Nephi has to say. He is one of the most prolific quoters of Isaiah. "

Why did Nephi, of all places, stop in the middle of his own writing and quote
chapters 48 and 49 of of Isaiah (compare 1 Nephi 20 and 21) WHY ?
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/48#commentary
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/49#commentary
maybe he is trying to tell us something using Isaiah that he was forbidden to say, 1 Nephi 14:28
that he "durst not speak" 1Nephi 22:29.
Maybe by using Isaiah's words, he is trying to tell us something about the "Great and Marvelous work" - Israel's restoration,
"apostasy among the people of the Lord as the stage for his fulfillment of prophetic events,
a prophet's prophesying, the coming forth of new revelations, the Lord's servant hated by the wicked of his people,
the Lord's saving intervention, an endowment of divine power, Israel's physical restoration, a light amid apostasy,
release from bondage, a new exodus, a new wandering in the wilderness, divine guidance and miracles,
return from dispersion, assistance from Gentiles, the destruction of the wicked...."

Jehovah’s servant
Isaiah 49
2 He has made my mouth like a sharp sword—in the shadow of his hand he hid me.He has made me into a polished arrow—in his quiver he kept me secret.

Jehovah’s “hiding” and “secreting” his servant suggests that the world knows nothing of his calling until the time Jehovah empowers him. Even Jehovah’s people don’t know him or are ignorant of him until he fulfills his mission: “You will summon a nation that you did not know; a nation that did not know you will hasten to you” (Isaiah 55:5). He himself, therefore, is one of the “new things” Jehovah does suddenly that test the loyalty of his people (Isaiah 42:9; 48:6-8; 51:4-11). The terms mouth, sword, hand, and arrow designate Jehovah’s servant metaphorically (Isaiah 31:8; 51:16; 62:2-3).

Just to be clear, I am not advocating against any anticipation of Jehovahs servant. Rather, I am accepting Nephi and Mormon at their word.

[darknesstolight]

Scriptures referring to Jesus are now frequently being changed to refer to this Davidic Servant. On blogs or forums unrelated to those I know in this forum , I see people going nuts over this topic. I believe those who have become obsessed with this doctrine may be looking beyond the mark.

The only things absolutely necessary for your Salvation are taught early, and often in the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. The doctrine of Christ, the Spiritual rebirth. This Davidic Servant will come, but he is not a central theme of the fullness of the Gospel as found within the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. He also was not a central theme of Joseph Smith's sermons, or any President for that matter.

If you've passed this up, and misunderstand this simple doctrine, and have not yet been truly Born of God and yet you find yourself obsessing over this idea of the Davidic Servant, cross referencing out of context scriptures and dead sea scrolls and random symbolisms to try and prove how important this topic is while at the same time spending no time on the doctrine of Christ, spiritual rebirth, you might be looking beyond the mark.

keyword: MIGHT. I don't know you. This is between each of us and our God.

I will have to respectively DISAGREE.
I think you must have skipped over some scriptures somewhere.
And I think in this case; how important this servant is, it would be hard to, as you say "Looking Beyond the Mark".
Here is why his coming and us looking for him and accepting him is extremely important,
because if we don't, we can be "cut off from among my people who are of the covenant."
Our only hope is to be numbered with The House of Israel - the Lord's covenant people.
" The Lord has ordained no salvation or plan of salvation outside of the covenant with His people Israel"

(1)
As many of us who care about the scriptures know that in the Book of Mormon
Jesus said:
3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

2 "For surely he spake as touching all things
concerning my people which are of the house of Israel;
therefore it must needs be that he must speak
also to the Gentiles."

3 "And all things that he spake have been and shall be,
even according to the words which he spake."

4 "Therefore give heed to my words;
write the things which I have told you;
and according to the time and the will
of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles."

So here we have the Lord Himself giving us a commandment
that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."
Sounds pretty important to me.

(2)
So now we are "searching diligently" the book Isaiah as the Lord commanded,
and what do we come to find ?, that this Davidic Servant is the main theme in this book.
I think that makes him very important.

(3)
Why he is so important, and our salvation in an indirect way may depend on accepting him
is because he will be representing Christ; because he will bring the words of Christ, (sealed portion)
and whether we accept him and Christ's words or not, will greatly determine our destiny and future -
of gathering and prepare to join Zion, or harden our hearts to our own condemnation and destruction.

Gileadi
page 4
The Gathering of Israel’s Outcasts from Exile

A hard fact of Isaiah’s end-time scenario is that it is not those who appear to be God’s people whom God saves in the end but those who are rejected by the majority. These “outcasts” suffer “reproach” and “ridicule,” are “excluded” from God’s people, and, like God’s servant who gathers them, are “despised” and “abhorred” until God reverses their circumstances (Isaiah 49:7–8; 51:7; 60:15–16; 61:7, 9; 66:5–8). In the end, those who are excluded and betrayed by their own people, are gathered with God’s righteous remnant: “Thus says my Lord Jehovah, who gathers up the outcasts of Israel: ‘I will gather others to those already gathered’” (Isaiah 56:3, 8).

Isaiah 24:5
5 "The earth lies polluted under its inhabitants:
they have transgressed the laws,
changed the ordinances, set at nought the ancient covenant."

explanation:
"Causing these curses is the wickedness of Jehovah’s people, who have altered his “ordinances” or “ritual” and perverted his “laws” or “doctrine” , thereby violating Jehovah’s covenant and rendering it void.
Jehovah’s servant, who personifies Jehovah’s covenant (Isaiah 42:6; 49:8), they likewise set at nought (Isaiah 49:7; 50:5-11; 52:14)."

So great is this challenge, in fact, that many Gentiles will not accept it.
Instead, they will reject the words of Christ, and be "cut off" as
bitter branches, from His people (3 Nephi 21:11"

We Gentiles, and also the entire World, will have two choices when the Davidic King arrives: we will either
(1) harden our hearts to our own condemnation and destruction; or else
(2) we will repent and prepare to join Zion.
There will be a complete division between the righteous and the wicked in that day."
end quote

3 Nephi 21

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.



The Book of Mormon contains less than a hundredth part of Jesus' words to the Nephites. Yet, in the last days, the fullness of Jesus' words comes forth to the Gentiles in accordance with the servant's mission.
The plates of Nephi contain the greater part of what Jesus taught the people.
They, therefore, are among the "other books" to come forth. They "make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world".
They make known also the folly and abominations of the Gentiles.
Prophecies about the Gentiles in the latter days thus show two facets. Those Gentiles who are under condemnation- which causes the Lord to withhold from them the greater things- will remain under condemnation if they do not repent.
For that reason, the Gentiles must turn from their evil ways. Those Gentiles who make their calling and election sure, to whom the Lord reveals the greater things, do not, of course, represent all the Gentiles. In the latter days, the gospel turns first to the Gentiles. But when many of them reject it, the gospel turns to the Jews and other natural lineages of Israel.

***Moroni saw that many Gentiles would mock the Brother of Jared's vision. Moroni writes that vision in the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. Many Gentiles too, will not believe the great and marvelous work - will not believe the words of Christ. Of the words of Christ coming forth in the day, the Gentiles will say, "A Bible!, A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible".
The Words of Christ and the Brother of Jared's vision cover the entire history of humanity. In that respect, they resemble the Bible more than the Book of Mormon does. The two full accounts will come forth to the Gentiles- when some Gentiles become sanctified as the Brother of Jared - and turn from the Gentiles to the house of Israel.

From these scriptures , we gain a clearer idea of how so many Gentiles will sin against the gospel of Jesus Christ . They will disavow the new revelations the Lord will bring forth. Having formerly received the gospel, many Gentiles will now reject it. Instead of repenting of their iniquities, they will harden their hearts and deny the Lord of Hosts. Refusing to come unto Christ and obey his voice, these Gentiles will be as "salt that hath lost its savor".
At the time they reject the gospel, the wicked Gentiles are "lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations". They are "filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations". Being "lifted up in the pride of their eyes", they "put down the power and miracles of God". Publishing for money, they "preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor".
(3 Nephi 16:10)

These Gentiles have no charity for their fellow beings. They don't thank the Jews nor Lehi's descendants for the scriptures they have received from them. Instead, they curse and hate them and will not recover them. (please see below *** (A) )
The Lord lengthens out his arm to the Gentiles all the day long. But they mar the Lord's servant who brings forth His words. Their rejecting the Lord's servant and their rejecting the gospel doubly testifies of their apostasy; Nephi, therefore, offers no hope for the Gentiles unless they reconcile themselves to Christ.
Although the Gentiles know God's decrees on this land, many allow secret combinations to get above them. Drunken with iniquity and all manner of abominations, they suffer woes- God's covenant curse.
When they reject his words, the Lord cuts them off from his people.
He removes the fullness of his gospel from among the wicked, giving it to those who will receive it.
With the wicked Gentiles' apostasy and its aftermath, the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The Lord turns the iniquities of the Gentiles upon their own heads. He comes out in justice against them. The wicked Gentiles bring down the fullness of God's wrath, just as the Jaredites and Nephites did. The Lord visits the Gentiles "with thunder and with earthquake, and with a great noise, and with storm, and with tempest, and with the flame of devouring fire". The sword of justices falls on the wicked Gentiles. He destroys the Gentiles; cities and chariots and executes vengeance and fury upon them.
He covers their land with a desolating sickness. A scourge consumes the wicked.
The unrepentant Gentiles cannot stand before God's power. Lehi's descendants, whom God empowers, marshal themselves and vex the wicked Gentiles.
They go among the Gentiles like a lion among the beasts, treading down and tearing to pieces. Lehi's descendants, who are of the house of Israel, inherit the Gentiles' lands and cities. The Lord reestablishes Lehi's descendants in this land, even as the wicked Gentiles perish.

I trust that if I follow the tenants of the Church of Christ (which Church is Charity) that I will know the Lord or His servants through the Spirit.

My feelings on this are secure and I feel absolutely at peace that I do not need to pursue the course of action you are suggesting. There are things for us to learn yet we can be secure knowing we can't go astray if we practice and focus our efforts in living as Christ or as Love does. We must preach repentance and baptism and fire because all else depends on it and then a man will be lead and guided by the Spirit and if they retain a remission of their sins they can't be lead astray.

...

thank you for expressing those truths.

So, for you, what exactly is this course of action, that you say I'm suggesting ?
if it's not just expressing what the scriptures are saying.
I try to have no opinion and let the scriptures speak for them selves.

I don't need to do what you have done in your studies of DS and the research of Gileadi, for instance.

Succinctly, what are you preaching? Why? What are you wanting to accomplish? Succint, please.

...

[zacary]

darknesstolight,

Buddy, if we have NOT an understanding of the BASICS BY NOW, how are we to EVER COMPREHEND what it TAKES to Live the Law of Consecration and ENGAGE in the GREAT & MARVELOUS TASK of ESTABLISHING ZION THAT IS ON OUR DOORSTEP ? We are talking a MAJOR UNDERTAKING that involves Understanding the MEAT of the Gospel.

You are ASSUMING that those of us concentrating on the DS, lack an understanding of the BASICS. IT'S TIME TO MOVE ON My Friend. Stop sipping the Milk we ALL should be aware of by now.

[zacary]

Zathura,

The DS IS the Spirit.

[darknesstolight]

darknesstolight,

Buddy, if we have NOT an understanding of the BASICS BY NOW, how are we to EVER COMPREHEND what it TAKES to Live the Law of Consecration and ENGAGE in the GREAT & MARVELOUS TASK of ESTABLISHING ZION THAT IS ON OUR DOORSTEP ?

Oh, that's an easy question. Answer, through the Spirit.

We are talking a MAJOR UNDERTAKING that involves Understanding the MEAT of the Gospel.

You are ASSUMING that those of us concentrating on the DS, lack an understanding of the BASICS. IT'S TIME TO MOVE ON My Friend. Stop sipping the Milk we ALL should be aware of by now.

Sounds like you are the one assuming things. In any case, what makes you think that we should care about the fact that you think everyone should be beyond sipping milk? If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

...

[zacary]

darknesstolight,

The TIME HAS COME.....To CRAP or get off the POT. Many people are going to be left behind when the Crap Hits Fan. Only those who have been seeking ADDITIONAL Truth, will AVOID the fate of those who HAVEN'T. It IS sad, but ABSOLUTELY TRUE....Just as it was for those poor souls banging away at the Door of the Ark....TOO DARN LATE !

UNDER informed members and like people all over the world, are going to have HELL TO PAY for CHOOSING to remain ignorant and CONTEND with those who KNOW what they are talking about.

[zacary]

darknesstolight,

Good Luck Brother....You are going to NEED IT. Because Dumb Luck is what a man counts on if he CHOOSES to be Ignorant.