The Coronavirus Hoax

[Fred]

Ah, but that's where you are wrong. I do have an idea. What's that, you might ask?

A thing you are lacking. A personal revelation that tells me:

1) The keys are still with them.
2) Which of necessity means the errors were honest ones.

Hence the maxim: The time of living on borrowed light is over.

Ironic that the implication of your statements is that the Q15 in making their decisions to push the mRNA clot shots, etc.,, were operating on borrowed light; and insofar as they have not corrected their actions/beliefs with regard to this shot and on other issues, they are still operating on borrowed light.

True. In that aspect. In most important things though, they are still right.

By most things, do you mean accepting queers, partnering with WEF, joining The Secret Clergy Response Team, lying about masks, lying about safe and effective, closing temples when government did not require it, ordering Bishops and Stake Presidents to bear false witness, cheating on their taxes, disregarding God's warning of Moroni's trumpet, selling confidential genealogy records, stating that God was offended by the word Mormon, refusing to help homeless women with children, telling people in need to apply for government welfare and food stamps instead of helping them, selling high ticket items donated to the Deseret Industries to a fully for profit company owned by Elon Musk, lying about Ammon Bundy, dissolving office of Seventy, ordering KSL-TV and Radio and the Deseret News to lie every day and hide the truth at any cost, firing Steven Jones from BYU for telling the truth, lying about miracles in order to pretend God was with them, giving away their massive hospital holdings for free so that Intermountain could remove children's sex organs without parental consent, hiring million dollar attorneys to defend child rapists, etc., just a few off the top of my head.

[Obeone]

True. In that aspect. In most important things though, they are still right.

By most things, do you mean accepting queers, partnering with WEF, joining The Secret Clergy Response Team, lying about masks, lying about safe and effective, closing temples when government did not require it, ordering Bishops and Stake Presidents to bear false witness, cheating on their taxes, disregarding God's warning of Moroni's trumpet, selling confidential genealogy records, stating that God was offended by the word Mormon, refusing to help homeless women with children, telling people in need to apply for government welfare and food stamps instead of helping them, selling high ticket items donated to the Deseret Industries to a fully for profit company owned by Elon Musk, lying about Ammon Bundy, dissolving office of Seventy, ordering KSL-TV and Radio and the Deseret News to lie every day and hide the truth at any cost, firing Steven Jones from BYU for telling the truth, lying about miracles in order to pretend God was with them, giving away their massive hospital holdings for free so that Intermountain could remove children's sex organs without parental consent, hiring million dollar attorneys to defend child rapists, etc., just a few off the top of my head.

Wow, it sounds miserable for you, with all that in "the top of your head!"

So much bitterness!

Did you ever consider that "bitterness" is not a fruit of the Spirit of God?

What spirit are you allowing to influence you? Did you ever stop and think about that?

You should.

[Good & Global]

From June 22, 2023

Tabernacle Choir cancels live broadcast due to multiple cases of COVID following Mexico tour

https://www.ksl.com/article/50672404/ta ... exico-tour

It’s true that they canceled a live broadcast due to illness, and it’s my opinion that their collective immunity has been decreased due to jabs/boosters.

Yes. And are any bells ringing: the Choir was vaxed. They still get covid to the point of cancellation. Safe and effective anyone?
[/quote]

[Good & Global]

From June 22, 2023

Tabernacle Choir cancels live broadcast due to multiple cases of COVID following Mexico tour

https://www.ksl.com/article/50672404/ta ... exico-tour

It’s true that they canceled a live broadcast due to illness, and it’s my opinion that their collective immunity has been decreased due to jabs/boosters.

Yes. And are any bells ringing: the Choir was vaxed. They still get covid to the point of cancellation. Safe and effective anyone?

Look mommy bells!

Lots of bells on temple square are ringing these days.

SEC, Child Abuse AZ, UN shots, etc

[IsaiahVision]

Ok, settle down everybody.

So, last Sunday's priesthood lesson from the EQ president was on 'Follow the Prophet'. ...Sigh, not again. I got up to walk out in disgust, but stayed in back to see how this new ward responded. Half way through the lesson, some old guy (call him AntiVax) whose wife had an vaccine adverse reaction and almost died, with no fear goes on the Covid Hoax-anti-vaxx rant which led to a very lively EQ debate and essentially AntiVax asks how we now 'Follow the Prophet' after the Vaxx (being a bio-weapon) harmed/killed many members. We never finished the lesson; EQ Pres said he needs to finish his lesson in two weeks. (boy, I can't wait; I'll be ready!)

Another TBM member in the ward is an Isaiah-lover, scriptorian, and Sunday-School teacher (TBM). Love this guy except that TBM is a full fledged 'Follow the Prophet' guy and and works at Church HQ. TBM told AntiVax during the EQ discussion that we must " 'Follow the Prophet'....or Not". (...a fallacy argument, actually.)

After the lesson, TBM and I had an after-lesson interaction. In response to 'Follow the Prophet' or Not', I told TBM that Option C was that the 'Prophet was deceived'. He did not really react nor respond. I emailed him the scriptures proving that prophets can be deceived (that I had mentioned). He replied, thanked me, and also asked for all the Isaiah references I mentioned slamming latter-day prophets; so I sent that to him too. Then last night, I emailed TBM again putting forth the really 'hard' questions to him; here is part of my email:


"I believe not following the true Law of Common Consent, combined with Follow-the-Prophet blind-obedience mentality in Church leaders (like BY warned about), leads to things like the Mountain Meadow Massacre. I believe ‘Follow the Prophet’-mentality HAS now led to the epic Covid Vaxx blunder by the Church (read all of JST Ezekiel 14:1-11 where the men of Israel, who had idols in their heart, asked the prophet ‘what to do’…without asking the Lord themselves). It’s brutally harsh.

Full circle to the Covid Vaxx Hoax…

You mentioned on Sunday Matthew 16:18 about believers taking up serpents or drinking any deadly thing. Yeah, poison unawares and by faith? Not Jim Jones and knowingly ‘drinking the Cool-aid’.
So, where was the Church’s faith when dealing with Covid 19? Why not just ‘cure all’ by Priesthood laying on of hands? Where was the ‘faith’ and healing of the sick? Why did my last Bishop, after being pressured by SP to get the vax, still get Covid 19 three times??

Revelation 18:23-24
How do you reconcile Matthew 16:18 with the outcome of the ‘sorceries’ in Rev 18… “And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth”? (FYI, I heard there was like over 200 new mRNA vaccines submitted and awaiting approval at the FDA.). Personally, I believe part of the answer is in JST Ezekiel 14:1-11.

In my opinion, it also has to do with these scriptures:

2 Nephi 4:34:
“I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.”

D&C 124:87
“Therefore, let my servant William put his trust in me, and cease to fear concerning his family, because of the sickness of the land. If ye love me, keep my commandments; and the sickness of the land shall redound to your glory.” …The sickness of the land in 1841 was the Yellow Fever plague, with a death rate of 50%! Not less than 1% like Covid 19.


Brother TBM, help me! Like that older Brother (AntiVax) on the front row in EQ, I will ask the hard questions.

…given the scriptures in my first email proving that prophets can actually be deceived,
…given that we should not live in ‘fear’ and have faith in God,
…with all the now published scientific studies and prima facia evidence on Covid Vax deaths and long-term injury, including infertility, increases in cancer rates,
…with the Vaxx shown to have ‘negative’ efficacy around the world and does not prevent Covid 19,
…with the unVaxxed now proven to be significantly healthier than the Vaxxed,
…given that my naturopathic doctor also treats the Vaxxed-injured and told me today that he was flooded with Vaxx adverse reaction calls right after the Church’s ‘safe and effective’ announcements,
…given all the Isaiah scriptures disparaging latter-day prophets…including being ‘dumb watchdogs unable to bark’,


HOW are members supposed to cognitively reconcile all this and NOT come to the conclusions that:

1. The Prophet was ‘deceived’,
2. That Church leadership really didn’t receive revelation from God approving the “godsend”, that was supposedly “safe and effective”, and “seemeth good to the Holy Spirit”,
a. Hence, disturbingly, the Q15 thought they were receiving revelation from God, when in fact, they were not.
b. Or,…. (Option B and C would be far worse and damning.)

3. Why Members with such conclusions should have any further faith/trust in Church leaders, including for not being able to admit or repent of mistakes, or continuing to not warn members from taking the vaxx/boosters?
4. That more Saints will die in the near-term or become Vaxx-injured/disabled,
5. Why Members should NOT conclude that their entire Priesthood leadership chain used unrighteous dominion to push the Vaxx and masks upon ‘blind’ Members, and especially ‘vaxx-resistant’ Members (many of whom knew better, received their own Holy Spirit witness, and stood firm in the face of sheer overwhelming Church leadership and social pressure)?"

-End email.
No response yet.


Fred and Chip, I'm dealing with a TBM that works at Church HQ. I want TBM to actually engage/debate me and see if he can be intellectually honest. So, I couldn't go full 'nuclear' on him...claiming Church 'lying and deception', etc (Option B and C).

...But, I know you would, LOL!!

[Obeone]

Ok, settle down everybody.

So, last Sunday's priesthood lesson from the EQ president was on 'Follow the Prophet'. ...Sigh, not again. I got up to walk out in disgust, but stayed in back to see how this new ward responded. Half way through the lesson, some old guy (call him AntiVax) whose wife had an vaccine adverse reaction and almost died, with no fear goes on the Covid Hoax-anti-vaxx rant which lead to a very lively EQ debate and essentially AntiVax asks how we now 'Follow the Prophet' after the Vaxx (being a bio-weapon) harmed/killed many members. We never finished the lesson; EQ Pres said he needs to finish his lesson in two weeks. (boy, I can't wait; I'll be ready!)

Another TBM member in the ward is an Isaiah-lover, scriptorian, and Sunday-School teacher (TBM). Love this guy except that TBM is a full fledged 'Follow the Prophet' guy and and works at Church HQ. TBM told AntiVax during the EQ discussion that we must " 'Follow the Prophet'....or Not". (...a fallacy argument, actually.)

After the lesson, TBM and I had an after-lesson interaction. In response to 'Follow the Prophet' or Not', I told TBM that Option C was that the 'Prophet was deceived'. He did not really react nor respond. I emailed him the scriptures proving that prophets can be deceived (that I had mentioned). He replied, thanked me, and also asked for all the Isaiah references I mentioned slamming latter-day prophets; so I sent that to him too. Then last night, I emailed TBM again putting forth the really 'hard' questions to him; here is part of my email:


"I believe not following the true Law of Common Consent, combined with Follow-the-Prophet blind-obedience mentality in Church leaders (like BY warned about), leads to things like the Mountain Meadow Massacre. I believe ‘Follow the Prophet’-mentality HAS now led to the epic Covid Vaxx blunder by the Church (read all of JST Ezekiel 14:1-11 where the men of Israel, who had idols in their heart, asked the prophet ‘what to do’…without asking the Lord themselves). It’s brutally harsh.

Full circle to the Covid Vaxx Hoax…

You mentioned on Sunday Matthew 16:18 about believers taking up serpents or drinking any deadly thing. Yeah, poison unawares and by faith? Not Jim Jones and knowingly ‘drinking the Cool-aid’.
So, where was the Church’s faith when dealing with Covid 19? Why not just ‘cure all’ by Priesthood laying on of hands? Where was the ‘faith’ and healing of the sick? Why did my last Bishop, after being pressured by SP to get the vax, still get Covid 19 three times??

Revelation 18:23-24
How do you reconcile Matthew 16:18 with the outcome of the ‘sorceries’ in Rev 18… “And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth”? (FYI, I heard there was like over 200 new mRNA vaccines submitted and awaiting approval at the FDA.). Personally, I believe part of the answer is in JST Ezekiel 14:1-11.

In my opinion, it also has to do with these scriptures:

2 Nephi 4:34:
“I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.”

D&C 124:87
“Therefore, let my servant William put his trust in me, and cease to fear concerning his family, because of the sickness of the land. If ye love me, keep my commandments; and the sickness of the land shall redound to your glory.” …The sickness of the land in 1841 was the Yellow Fever plague, with a death rate of 50%! Not less than 1% like Covid 19.


Brother TBM, help me! Like that older Brother (AntiVax) on the front row in EQ, I will ask the hard questions.

…given the scriptures in my first email proving that prophets can actually be deceived,
…given that we should not live in ‘fear’ and have faith in God,
…with all the now published scientific studies and prima facia evidence on Covid Vax deaths and long-term injury, including infertility, increases in cancer rates,
…with the Vaxx shown to have ‘negative’ efficacy around the world and does not prevent Covid 19,
…with the unVaxxed now proven to be significantly healthier than the Vaxxed,
…given that my naturopathic doctor also treats the Vaxxed-injured and told me today that he was flooded with Vaxx adverse reaction calls right after the Church’s ‘safe and effective’ announcements,
…given all the Isaiah scriptures disparaging latter-day prophets…including being ‘dumb watchdogs unable to bark’,


HOW are members supposed to cognitively reconcile all this and NOT come to the conclusions that:

1. The Prophet was ‘deceived’,
2. That Church leadership really didn’t receive revelation from God approving the “godsend”, that was supposedly “safe and effective”, and “seemeth good to the Holy Spirit”,
a. Hence, disturbingly, the Q15 thought they were receiving revelation from God, when in fact, they were not.
b. Or,…. (Option B and C would be far worse and damning.)

3. Why Members with such conclusions should have any further faith/trust in Church leaders, including for not being able to admit or repent of mistakes, or continuing to not warn members from taking the vaxx/boosters?
4. That more Saints will die in the near-term or become Vaxx-injured/disabled,
5. Why Members should NOT conclude that their entire Priesthood leadership chain used unrighteous dominion to push the Vaxx and masks upon ‘blind’ Members, and especially ‘vaxx-resistant’ Members (many of whom knew better, received their own Holy Spirit witness, and stood firm in the face of sheer overwhelming Church leadership and social pressure)?"

-End email.
No response yet.


Fred and Chip, I'm dealing with a TBM that works at Church HQ. I want TBM to actually engage/debate me and see if he can be intellectually honest. So, I couldn't go full 'nuclear' on him...claiming Church 'lying and deception', etc (Option B and C).

...But, I know you would, LOL!!

You are misinterpreting Isaiah, do not see an honest mistake, and do not understand that general apostasy of the Church is not possible (last dispensation etc).

In all other things, you are correct, and are asking some very good questions.

It is a test. Listen to the Spirit and keep your covenants. And all will be well with you. And God will steady the ark.

[Lineman1012]

Ok, settle down everybody.

So, last Sunday's priesthood lesson from the EQ president was on 'Follow the Prophet'. ...Sigh, not again. I got up to walk out in disgust, but stayed in back to see how this new ward responded. Half way through the lesson, some old guy (call him AntiVax) whose wife had an vaccine adverse reaction and almost died, with no fear goes on the Covid Hoax-anti-vaxx rant which led to a very lively EQ debate and essentially AntiVax asks how we now 'Follow the Prophet' after the Vaxx (being a bio-weapon) harmed/killed many members. We never finished the lesson; EQ Pres said he needs to finish his lesson in two weeks. (boy, I can't wait; I'll be ready!)

Another TBM member in the ward is an Isaiah-lover, scriptorian, and Sunday-School teacher (TBM). Love this guy except that TBM is a full fledged 'Follow the Prophet' guy and and works at Church HQ. TBM told AntiVax during the EQ discussion that we must " 'Follow the Prophet'....or Not". (...a fallacy argument, actually.)

After the lesson, TBM and I had an after-lesson interaction. In response to 'Follow the Prophet' or Not', I told TBM that Option C was that the 'Prophet was deceived'. He did not really react nor respond. I emailed him the scriptures proving that prophets can be deceived (that I had mentioned). He replied, thanked me, and also asked for all the Isaiah references I mentioned slamming latter-day prophets; so I sent that to him too. Then last night, I emailed TBM again putting forth the really 'hard' questions to him; here is part of my email:


"I believe not following the true Law of Common Consent, combined with Follow-the-Prophet blind-obedience mentality in Church leaders (like BY warned about), leads to things like the Mountain Meadow Massacre. I believe ‘Follow the Prophet’-mentality HAS now led to the epic Covid Vaxx blunder by the Church (read all of JST Ezekiel 14:1-11 where the men of Israel, who had idols in their heart, asked the prophet ‘what to do’…without asking the Lord themselves). It’s brutally harsh.

Full circle to the Covid Vaxx Hoax…

You mentioned on Sunday Matthew 16:18 about believers taking up serpents or drinking any deadly thing. Yeah, poison unawares and by faith? Not Jim Jones and knowingly ‘drinking the Cool-aid’.
So, where was the Church’s faith when dealing with Covid 19? Why not just ‘cure all’ by Priesthood laying on of hands? Where was the ‘faith’ and healing of the sick? Why did my last Bishop, after being pressured by SP to get the vax, still get Covid 19 three times??

Revelation 18:23-24
How do you reconcile Matthew 16:18 with the outcome of the ‘sorceries’ in Rev 18… “And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth”? (FYI, I heard there was like over 200 new mRNA vaccines submitted and awaiting approval at the FDA.). Personally, I believe part of the answer is in JST Ezekiel 14:1-11.

In my opinion, it also has to do with these scriptures:

2 Nephi 4:34:
“I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.”

D&C 124:87
“Therefore, let my servant William put his trust in me, and cease to fear concerning his family, because of the sickness of the land. If ye love me, keep my commandments; and the sickness of the land shall redound to your glory.” …The sickness of the land in 1841 was the Yellow Fever plague, with a death rate of 50%! Not less than 1% like Covid 19.


Brother TBM, help me! Like that older Brother (AntiVax) on the front row in EQ, I will ask the hard questions.

…given the scriptures in my first email proving that prophets can actually be deceived,
…given that we should not live in ‘fear’ and have faith in God,
…with all the now published scientific studies and prima facia evidence on Covid Vax deaths and long-term injury, including infertility, increases in cancer rates,
…with the Vaxx shown to have ‘negative’ efficacy around the world and does not prevent Covid 19,
…with the unVaxxed now proven to be significantly healthier than the Vaxxed,
…given that my naturopathic doctor also treats the Vaxxed-injured and told me today that he was flooded with Vaxx adverse reaction calls right after the Church’s ‘safe and effective’ announcements,
…given all the Isaiah scriptures disparaging latter-day prophets…including being ‘dumb watchdogs unable to bark’,


HOW are members supposed to cognitively reconcile all this and NOT come to the conclusions that:

1. The Prophet was ‘deceived’,
2. That Church leadership really didn’t receive revelation from God approving the “godsend”, that was supposedly “safe and effective”, and “seemeth good to the Holy Spirit”,
a. Hence, disturbingly, the Q15 thought they were receiving revelation from God, when in fact, they were not.
b. Or,…. (Option B and C would be far worse and damning.)

3. Why Members with such conclusions should have any further faith/trust in Church leaders, including for not being able to admit or repent of mistakes, or continuing to not warn members from taking the vaxx/boosters?
4. That more Saints will die in the near-term or become Vaxx-injured/disabled,
5. Why Members should NOT conclude that their entire Priesthood leadership chain used unrighteous dominion to push the Vaxx and masks upon ‘blind’ Members, and especially ‘vaxx-resistant’ Members (many of whom knew better, received their own Holy Spirit witness, and stood firm in the face of sheer overwhelming Church leadership and social pressure)?"

-End email.
No response yet.


Fred and Chip, I'm dealing with a TBM that works at Church HQ. I want TBM to actually engage/debate me and see if he can be intellectually honest. So, I couldn't go full 'nuclear' on him...claiming Church 'lying and deception', etc (Option B and C).

...But, I know you would, LOL!!

Your TBM has an additional hurdle to overcome besides all the truth you pointed out to him. He works for the church, so his livelihood is on the line. If he can realize the truths you pointed out he will have to find a new way to support his family.

Those who either work for the church or get a stipend from it are financially tied into the mantra of following the prophet.

[Obeone]

Your TBM has an additional hurdle to overcome besides all the truth you pointed out to him. He works for the church, so his livelihood is on the line. If he can realize the truths you pointed out he will have to find a new way to support his family.

Those who either work for the church or get a stipend from it are financially tied into the mantra of following the prophet.

If he realizes that the Church is true, despite of it's errors, he is safe, both financially and spiritually (one of the benefits of working for God's kingdom ).

[IsaiahVision]

Ok, settle down everybody.

So, last Sunday's priesthood lesson from the EQ president was on 'Follow the Prophet'. ...Sigh, not again. I got up to walk out in disgust, but stayed in back to see how this new ward responded. Half way through the lesson, some old guy (call him AntiVax) whose wife had an vaccine adverse reaction and almost died, with no fear goes on the Covid Hoax-anti-vaxx rant which lead to a very lively EQ debate and essentially AntiVax asks how we now 'Follow the Prophet' after the Vaxx (being a bio-weapon) harmed/killed many members. We never finished the lesson; EQ Pres said he needs to finish his lesson in two weeks. (boy, I can't wait; I'll be ready!)

Another TBM member in the ward is an Isaiah-lover, scriptorian, and Sunday-School teacher (TBM). Love this guy except that TBM is a full fledged 'Follow the Prophet' guy and and works at Church HQ. TBM told AntiVax during the EQ discussion that we must " 'Follow the Prophet'....or Not". (...a fallacy argument, actually.)

After the lesson, TBM and I had an after-lesson interaction. In response to 'Follow the Prophet' or Not', I told TBM that Option C was that the 'Prophet was deceived'. He did not really react nor respond. I emailed him the scriptures proving that prophets can be deceived (that I had mentioned). He replied, thanked me, and also asked for all the Isaiah references I mentioned slamming latter-day prophets; so I sent that to him too. Then last night, I emailed TBM again putting forth the really 'hard' questions to him; here is part of my email:


"I believe not following the true Law of Common Consent, combined with Follow-the-Prophet blind-obedience mentality in Church leaders (like BY warned about), leads to things like the Mountain Meadow Massacre. I believe ‘Follow the Prophet’-mentality HAS now led to the epic Covid Vaxx blunder by the Church (read all of JST Ezekiel 14:1-11 where the men of Israel, who had idols in their heart, asked the prophet ‘what to do’…without asking the Lord themselves). It’s brutally harsh.

Full circle to the Covid Vaxx Hoax…

You mentioned on Sunday Matthew 16:18 about believers taking up serpents or drinking any deadly thing. Yeah, poison unawares and by faith? Not Jim Jones and knowingly ‘drinking the Cool-aid’.
So, where was the Church’s faith when dealing with Covid 19? Why not just ‘cure all’ by Priesthood laying on of hands? Where was the ‘faith’ and healing of the sick? Why did my last Bishop, after being pressured by SP to get the vax, still get Covid 19 three times??

Revelation 18:23-24
How do you reconcile Matthew 16:18 with the outcome of the ‘sorceries’ in Rev 18… “And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth”? (FYI, I heard there was like over 200 new mRNA vaccines submitted and awaiting approval at the FDA.). Personally, I believe part of the answer is in JST Ezekiel 14:1-11.

In my opinion, it also has to do with these scriptures:

2 Nephi 4:34:
“I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.”

D&C 124:87
“Therefore, let my servant William put his trust in me, and cease to fear concerning his family, because of the sickness of the land. If ye love me, keep my commandments; and the sickness of the land shall redound to your glory.” …The sickness of the land in 1841 was the Yellow Fever plague, with a death rate of 50%! Not less than 1% like Covid 19.


Brother TBM, help me! Like that older Brother (AntiVax) on the front row in EQ, I will ask the hard questions.

…given the scriptures in my first email proving that prophets can actually be deceived,
…given that we should not live in ‘fear’ and have faith in God,
…with all the now published scientific studies and prima facia evidence on Covid Vax deaths and long-term injury, including infertility, increases in cancer rates,
…with the Vaxx shown to have ‘negative’ efficacy around the world and does not prevent Covid 19,
…with the unVaxxed now proven to be significantly healthier than the Vaxxed,
…given that my naturopathic doctor also treats the Vaxxed-injured and told me today that he was flooded with Vaxx adverse reaction calls right after the Church’s ‘safe and effective’ announcements,
…given all the Isaiah scriptures disparaging latter-day prophets…including being ‘dumb watchdogs unable to bark’,


HOW are members supposed to cognitively reconcile all this and NOT come to the conclusions that:

1. The Prophet was ‘deceived’,
2. That Church leadership really didn’t receive revelation from God approving the “godsend”, that was supposedly “safe and effective”, and “seemeth good to the Holy Spirit”,
a. Hence, disturbingly, the Q15 thought they were receiving revelation from God, when in fact, they were not.
b. Or,…. (Option B and C would be far worse and damning.)

3. Why Members with such conclusions should have any further faith/trust in Church leaders, including for not being able to admit or repent of mistakes, or continuing to not warn members from taking the vaxx/boosters?
4. That more Saints will die in the near-term or become Vaxx-injured/disabled,
5. Why Members should NOT conclude that their entire Priesthood leadership chain used unrighteous dominion to push the Vaxx and masks upon ‘blind’ Members, and especially ‘vaxx-resistant’ Members (many of whom knew better, received their own Holy Spirit witness, and stood firm in the face of sheer overwhelming Church leadership and social pressure)?"

-End email.
No response yet.


Fred and Chip, I'm dealing with a TBM that works at Church HQ. I want TBM to actually engage/debate me and see if he can be intellectually honest. So, I couldn't go full 'nuclear' on him...claiming Church 'lying and deception', etc (Option B and C).

...But, I know you would, LOL!!

You are misinterpreting Isaiah, do not see an honest mistake, and do not understand that general apostasy of the Church is not possible (last dispensation etc).

In all other things, you are correct, and are asking some very good questions.

It is a test. Listen to the Spirit and keep your covenants. And all will be well with you. And God will steady the ark.

Thank you for your reply! My response is calm and measured.

On Isaiah, just pointing out that you don't know what Isaiah scriptures I actually referenced and emailed. And, actually, I use Gileadi's Isaiah interpretations, not mine. He knows a lot more than I do.

In my email, points 1, 2, and 2a above, logically, could be from a 'honest mistake'. No one knows if it was an honest mistake...because nobody at Church HQ will talk about it!!! All we have to judge by is circumstantial evidence and Church actions.

Certainly, the whole Church covid/vax response was a hugh mistake. I called it an " epic blunder". I mean any average smuck (pick any idiot off the street), installed as President of the Church, seriously, could not have done any worse on the Church's Covid hoax and masks policy decisions.

Do you understand that
a) Church actions/GIVI-UN donations
b) Church coercive statements parroting TPTB Covid talking points
c) Church propaganda/press releases
d) Church use of unrighteous dominion and exclusion of personal agency, including
e) Church excommunication of some members not willing to 'sustain' and vaxx or mask
e) Church not admitting to any mistakes
e) and the constant 'shove it in your face' of 'Follow the Prophet' in GC and church lessons
...actually very much warrants the 'Not-an-honest-mistake' concerns and criticisms stated by others on LDSFF?

Given the Church's actions, let us be intellectually honest and admit that 'not-an-honest-mistake' positions are actually valid and very understandable? I very much understand Fred, Chips', and others' anger-response because of the Church's cult-like unrighteous-dominion emotional-spiritual abuse of members! Let me restate it again....We were ALL emotionally and spiritually abused by 'the Church' and Church leaders ...and many Members don't even know it yet.

(Fred and Chip are thinking right now, OMG, he's right!)

[/b]The 'abused' cannot heal until the abuser (the Church) recognizes and confesses, and stops the abuse.[/b]. We cannot move on from the abuse, and members stop leaving the church, until we all have a 'come-to-Jesus' meeting with Church leadership. The Abused will naturally continue to talk about it and have anger-emotional responses until healing begins.

IMHO, the Church's non-response to address the facts and concerns is the root cause and the ABUSE continues. I pray to God it was an honest mistake. I several times warned my Bishop and SP that it was all a huge mistake and offered (as a watchman) to 'explain it to everyone'. I have prayed to God that the PSRs do the right thing. But, the prima facia evidence, at this point and so far, doesn't look good and gives me serious doubt. I don't have 'faith' crises; I have a complete Leadership-faith crises.

Obeone, please help my faith and call SLC HQ for us all!

Lastly, I said nothing about a "general apostasy of the Church", so I'm not sure why you mentioned that at all?

Peace,

[Obeone]

You are misinterpreting Isaiah, do not see an honest mistake, and do not understand that general apostasy of the Church is not possible (last dispensation etc).

In all other things, you are correct, and are asking some very good questions.

It is a test. Listen to the Spirit and keep your covenants. And all will be well with you. And God will steady the ark.

Thank you for your reply! My response is calm and measured.

On Isaiah, just pointing out that you don't know what Isaiah scriptures I actually referenced and emailed. And, actually, I use Gileadi's Isaiah interpretations, not mine. He knows a lot more than I do.

In my email, points 1, 2, and 2a above, logically, could be from a 'honest mistake'. No one knows if it was an honest mistake...because nobody at Church HQ will talk about it!!! All we have to judge by is circumstantial evidence and Church actions.

Certainly, the whole Church covid/vax response was a hugh mistake. I called it an " epic blunder". I mean any average smuck (pick any idiot off the street), installed as President of the Church, seriously, could not have done any worse on the Church's Covid hoax and masks policy decisions.

Do you understand that
a) Church actions/GIVI-UN donations
b) Church coercive statements parroting TPTB Covid talking points
c) Church propaganda/press releases
d) Church use of unrighteous dominion and exclusion of personal agency, including
e) Church excommunication of some members not willing to 'sustain' and vaxx or mask
e) Church not admitting to any mistakes
e) and the constant 'shove it in your face' of 'Follow the Prophet' in GC and church lessons
...actually very much warrants the 'Not-an-honest-mistake' concerns and criticisms stated by others on LDSFF?

Given the Church's actions, let us be intellectually honest and admit that 'not-an-honest-mistake' positions are actually valid and very understandable? I very much understand Fred, Chips', and others' anger-response because of the Church's cult-like unrighteous-dominion emotional-spiritual abuse of members! Let me restate it again....We were ALL emotionally and spiritually abused by 'the Church' and Church leaders ...and many Members don't even know it yet.

(Fred and Chip are thinking right now, OMG, he's right!)

[/b]The 'abused' cannot heal until the abuser (the Church) recognizes and confesses, and stops the abuse.[/b]. We cannot move on from the abuse, and members stop leaving the church, until we all have a 'come-to-Jesus' meeting with Church leadership. The Abused will naturally continue to talk about it and have anger-emotional responses until healing begins.

IMHO, the Church's non-response to address the facts and concerns is the root cause and the ABUSE continues. I pray to God it was an honest mistake. I several times warned my Bishop and SP that it was all a huge mistake and offered (as a watchman) to 'explain it to everyone'. I have prayed to God that the PSRs do the right thing. But, the prima facia evidence, at this point and so far, doesn't look good and gives me serious doubt. I don't have 'faith' crises; I have a complete Leadership-faith crises.

Obeone, please help my faith and call SLC HQ for us all!

Lastly, I said nothing about a "general apostasy of the Church", so I'm not sure why you mentioned that at all?

Peace,

Thank you for your measured response. It is refreshing, and I appreciate it.

"Any schmuck from the street" point is interesting. However they could have done worse by forcing members to get the injection as, say a condition for temple recommend/attendance, but they did not.

As for emotional and spiritual abuse:
Would you say God was engaging in spiritual and emotional abuse when He commanded Abraham to kill his son,-- the son that Abraham waited for for decades as his heir?

 D&C 132:51 
51 ... for I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.

 D&C 136:31 
31 My people must be tried in all things, that they may be prepared to receive the glory that I have for them, even the glory of Zion; and he that will not bear chastisement is not worthy of my kingdom.

So God told you, before hand, that He will test you as He did Abraham. Are you surprised by this test? We shouldn't be.

[IsaiahVision]

You are misinterpreting Isaiah, do not see an honest mistake, and do not understand that general apostasy of the Church is not possible (last dispensation etc).

In all other things, you are correct, and are asking some very good questions.

It is a test. Listen to the Spirit and keep your covenants. And all will be well with you. And God will steady the ark.

Thank you for your reply! My response is calm and measured.

On Isaiah, just pointing out that you don't know what Isaiah scriptures I actually referenced and emailed. And, actually, I use Gileadi's Isaiah interpretations, not mine. He knows a lot more than I do.

In my email, points 1, 2, and 2a above, logically, could be from a 'honest mistake'. No one knows if it was an honest mistake...because nobody at Church HQ will talk about it!!! All we have to judge by is circumstantial evidence and Church actions.

Certainly, the whole Church covid/vax response was a hugh mistake. I called it an " epic blunder". I mean any average smuck (pick any idiot off the street), installed as President of the Church, seriously, could not have done any worse on the Church's Covid hoax and masks policy decisions.

Do you understand that
a) Church actions/GIVI-UN donations
b) Church coercive statements parroting TPTB Covid talking points
c) Church propaganda/press releases
d) Church use of unrighteous dominion and exclusion of personal agency, including
e) Church excommunication of some members not willing to 'sustain' and vaxx or mask
e) Church not admitting to any mistakes
e) and the constant 'shove it in your face' of 'Follow the Prophet' in GC and church lessons
...actually very much warrants the 'Not-an-honest-mistake' concerns and criticisms stated by others on LDSFF?

Given the Church's actions, let us be intellectually honest and admit that 'not-an-honest-mistake' positions are actually valid and very understandable? I very much understand Fred, Chips', and others' anger-response because of the Church's cult-like unrighteous-dominion emotional-spiritual abuse of members! Let me restate it again....We were ALL emotionally and spiritually abused by 'the Church' and Church leaders ...and many Members don't even know it yet.

(Fred and Chip are thinking right now, OMG, he's right!)

[/b]The 'abused' cannot heal until the abuser (the Church) recognizes and confesses, and stops the abuse.[/b]. We cannot move on from the abuse, and members stop leaving the church, until we all have a 'come-to-Jesus' meeting with Church leadership. The Abused will naturally continue to talk about it and have anger-emotional responses until healing begins.

IMHO, the Church's non-response to address the facts and concerns is the root cause and the ABUSE continues. I pray to God it was an honest mistake. I several times warned my Bishop and SP that it was all a huge mistake and offered (as a watchman) to 'explain it to everyone'. I have prayed to God that the PSRs do the right thing. But, the prima facia evidence, at this point and so far, doesn't look good and gives me serious doubt. I don't have 'faith' crises; I have a complete Leadership-faith crises.

Obeone, please help my faith and call SLC HQ for us all!

Lastly, I said nothing about a "general apostasy of the Church", so I'm not sure why you mentioned that at all?

Peace,

Thank you for your measured response. It is refreshing, and I appreciate it.

"Any schmuck from the street" point is interesting. However they could have done worse by forcing members to get the injection as, say a condition for temple recommend/attendance, but they did not.

As for emotional and spiritual abuse:
Would you say God was engaging in spiritual and emotional abuse when He commanded Abraham to kill his son,-- the son that Abraham waited for for decades as his heir?

 D&C 132:51 
51 ... for I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.

 D&C 136:31 
31 My people must be tried in all things, that they may be prepared to receive the glory that I have for them, even the glory of Zion; and he that will not bear chastisement is not worthy of my kingdom.

So God told you, before hand, that He will test you as He did Abraham. Are you surprised by this test? We shouldn't be.

Thank you. I believe sound logic reasoning (no fallacies) and use the scriptures is beneficial in discussions.

On forcing members to get the injections...

I would point out that the Tab Choir was 'forced' to get the Vax, as were missionaries very much emotionally 'pressured'...or sent home! At one point, you weren't allowed to serve a foreign mission without the vaxx, even when that country did not require it! You were 'forced' to wear a mask in the temple; I personally know this.

I know of one Bishop that was 'released' for refusing to wear a mask. I know of other Bishops and high council members that were highly pressured, and belittled in front of the high council to get the vaxx.

My wife knows of one family in town (former outspoken members) that were given an ultimatum by their SP that they could 1) 'shut up' about the the vax/masks/church policy, or 2) he would Excommunicate them, or 3) they could resign their membership. wow! They decided to resign.

Can we now conclude 'unrighteous dominion' and spiritual and emotional abuse by the Church? This doesn't even get into my own personal church covid experiences.

I believe Church leadership probably seriously considered requiring the vaxx for temple recommends. I've read that Leaders and SP would ask members if they sustain them, inferring that they didn't if they refused to obey orders to vaxx and mask.



On emotional and spiritual abuse with Abraham. A good point to consider. I think the answer is:

1. Abraham's trial (abuse if you will) actually stopped and God told him it was a test. Was Job's test any different?
2. God did not continue to gaslight Abraham, nor force him, nor berate him, nor threaten him with destruction (excommunication?) as in my examples above.
3. Your hypothesis puts man and God on equal footing and God's ways are not man's ways. I trust God, not man.

Peace,

[Obeone]

Thank you for your measured response. It is refreshing, and I appreciate it.

"Any schmuck from the street" point is interesting. However they could have done worse by forcing members to get the injection as, say a condition for temple recommend/attendance, but they did not.

As for emotional and spiritual abuse:
Would you say God was engaging in spiritual and emotional abuse when He commanded Abraham to kill his son,-- the son that Abraham waited for for decades as his heir?

 D&C 132:51 
51 ... for I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.

 D&C 136:31 
31 My people must be tried in all things, that they may be prepared to receive the glory that I have for them, even the glory of Zion; and he that will not bear chastisement is not worthy of my kingdom.

So God told you, before hand, that He will test you as He did Abraham. Are you surprised by this test? We shouldn't be.

Thank you. I believe sound logic reasoning (no fallacies) and use the scriptures is beneficial in discussions.

On forcing members to get the injections...

I would point out that the Tab Choir was 'forced' to get the Vax, as were missionaries very much emotionally 'pressured'...or sent home! At one point, you weren't allowed to serve a foreign mission without the vaxx, even when that country did not require it! You were 'forced' to wear a mask in the temple; I personally know this.

I know of one Bishop that was 'released' for refusing to wear a mask. I know of other Bishops and high council members that were highly pressured, and belittled in front of the high council to get the vaxx.

My wife knows of one family in town (former outspoken members) that were given an ultimatum by their SP that they could 1) 'shut up' about the the vax/masks/church policy, or 2) he would Excommunicate them, or 3) they could resign their membership. wow! They decided to resign.

Can we now conclude 'unrighteous dominion' and spiritual and emotional abuse by the Church? This doesn't even get into my own personal church covid experiences.

I believe Church leadership probably seriously considered requiring the vaxx for temple recommends. I've read that Leaders and SP would ask members if they sustain them, inferring that they didn't if they refused to obey orders to vaxx and mask.



On emotional and spiritual abuse with Abraham. A good point to consider. I think the answer is:

1. Abraham's trial (abuse if you will) actually stopped and God told him it was a test. Was Job's test any different?
2. God did not continue to gaslight Abraham, nor force him, nor berate him, nor threaten him with destruction (excommunication?) as in my examples above.
3. Your hypothesis puts man and God on equal footing and God's ways are not man's ways. I trust God, not man.

Peace,

I'd say Abraham's test was more intense than our's with covid.
A few month of inconvenience, etc.

As for the Church, it no longer pushes vaxx (depopulation shot). I haven't heard any new "urges".

[InfoWarrior82]

Thank you for your measured response. It is refreshing, and I appreciate it.

"Any schmuck from the street" point is interesting. However they could have done worse by forcing members to get the injection as, say a condition for temple recommend/attendance, but they did not.

As for emotional and spiritual abuse:
Would you say God was engaging in spiritual and emotional abuse when He commanded Abraham to kill his son,-- the son that Abraham waited for for decades as his heir?



So God told you, before hand, that He will test you as He did Abraham. Are you surprised by this test? We shouldn't be.

Thank you. I believe sound logic reasoning (no fallacies) and use the scriptures is beneficial in discussions.

On forcing members to get the injections...

I would point out that the Tab Choir was 'forced' to get the Vax, as were missionaries very much emotionally 'pressured'...or sent home! At one point, you weren't allowed to serve a foreign mission without the vaxx, even when that country did not require it! You were 'forced' to wear a mask in the temple; I personally know this.

I know of one Bishop that was 'released' for refusing to wear a mask. I know of other Bishops and high council members that were highly pressured, and belittled in front of the high council to get the vaxx.

My wife knows of one family in town (former outspoken members) that were given an ultimatum by their SP that they could 1) 'shut up' about the the vax/masks/church policy, or 2) he would Excommunicate them, or 3) they could resign their membership. wow! They decided to resign.

Can we now conclude 'unrighteous dominion' and spiritual and emotional abuse by the Church? This doesn't even get into my own personal church covid experiences.

I believe Church leadership probably seriously considered requiring the vaxx for temple recommends. I've read that Leaders and SP would ask members if they sustain them, inferring that they didn't if they refused to obey orders to vaxx and mask.



On emotional and spiritual abuse with Abraham. A good point to consider. I think the answer is:

1. Abraham's trial (abuse if you will) actually stopped and God told him it was a test. Was Job's test any different?
2. God did not continue to gaslight Abraham, nor force him, nor berate him, nor threaten him with destruction (excommunication?) as in my examples above.
3. Your hypothesis puts man and God on equal footing and God's ways are not man's ways. I trust God, not man.

Peace,

I'd say Abraham's test was more intense than our's with covid.
A few month of inconvenience, etc.

As for the Church, it no longer pushes vaxx (depopulation shot). I haven't heard any new "urges".

So that means they publicly apologized and repented of their sin of telling members to get poisoned by gadiantons?

[Obeone]

I'd say Abraham's test was more intense than our's with covid.
A few month of inconvenience, etc.

As for the Church, it no longer pushes vaxx (depopulation shot). I haven't heard any new "urges".

So that means they publicly apologized and repented of their sin of telling members to get poisoned by gadiantons?

Not yet. That's in the future.

[InfoWarrior82]

I'd say Abraham's test was more intense than our's with covid.
A few month of inconvenience, etc.

As for the Church, it no longer pushes vaxx (depopulation shot). I haven't heard any new "urges".

So that means they publicly apologized and repented of their sin of telling members to get poisoned by gadiantons?

Not yet. That's in the future.

Since you're so so so sure about the future and how God feels, how do you see their repentance happening? Slap on the wrist?

[Reluctant Watchman]

I'd say Abraham's test was more intense than our's with covid.
A few month of inconvenience, etc.

I don't know, there are thousands upon thousands who sacrificed their loved ones on the altar of "follow the prophet, he knows the way."

[IsaiahVision]

Thank you for your measured response. It is refreshing, and I appreciate it.

"Any schmuck from the street" point is interesting. However they could have done worse by forcing members to get the injection as, say a condition for temple recommend/attendance, but they did not.

As for emotional and spiritual abuse:
Would you say God was engaging in spiritual and emotional abuse when He commanded Abraham to kill his son,-- the son that Abraham waited for for decades as his heir?



So God told you, before hand, that He will test you as He did Abraham. Are you surprised by this test? We shouldn't be.

Thank you. I believe sound logic reasoning (no fallacies) and use the scriptures is beneficial in discussions.

On forcing members to get the injections...

I would point out that the Tab Choir was 'forced' to get the Vax, as were missionaries very much emotionally 'pressured'...or sent home! At one point, you weren't allowed to serve a foreign mission without the vaxx, even when that country did not require it! You were 'forced' to wear a mask in the temple; I personally know this.

I know of one Bishop that was 'released' for refusing to wear a mask. I know of other Bishops and high council members that were highly pressured, and belittled in front of the high council to get the vaxx.

My wife knows of one family in town (former outspoken members) that were given an ultimatum by their SP that they could 1) 'shut up' about the the vax/masks/church policy, or 2) he would Excommunicate them, or 3) they could resign their membership. wow! They decided to resign.

Can we now conclude 'unrighteous dominion' and spiritual and emotional abuse by the Church? This doesn't even get into my own personal church covid experiences.

I believe Church leadership probably seriously considered requiring the vaxx for temple recommends. I've read that Leaders and SP would ask members if they sustain them, inferring that they didn't if they refused to obey orders to vaxx and mask.



On emotional and spiritual abuse with Abraham. A good point to consider. I think the answer is:

1. Abraham's trial (abuse if you will) actually stopped and God told him it was a test. Was Job's test any different?
2. God did not continue to gaslight Abraham, nor force him, nor berate him, nor threaten him with destruction (excommunication?) as in my examples above.
3. Your hypothesis puts man and God on equal footing and God's ways are not man's ways. I trust God, not man.

Peace,

I'd say Abraham's test was more intense than our's with covid.
A few month of inconvenience, etc.

As for the Church, it no longer pushes vaxx (depopulation shot). I haven't heard any new "urges".

Respectfully, its been a few years and the ABUSE continues in Church for many. Obeone, I understand that you may not have been or feel abused. My daughter is going through a divorce from an abuser right now; I've learned a lot about abuse in the last three months. She did everything 'right', temple marriage, returned missionary, etc.....like many of us with regard to the Church.

For Infowarior82, RW, Fred, Chip, and many others...the source of their emotional anger, frustration, and 'not-an-honest-mistake' position is from the emotional and spiritual abuse they experienced from the Church. To the aforementioned jaded and abused, YOUR anger, positions, and feelings of doubt are very much justified and warranted!

Brother Obeone, I believe your not recognizing this is why you get overly attacked.

The Church's (narcissists?) leaders, for example, continue the emotional and spiritual abuse with gaslighting members with 'Follow the Prophet' talks, talks about not questioning leaders, and other such bullsh/&.

Stop the Abuse!

[Obeone]

So that means they publicly apologized and repented of their sin of telling members to get poisoned by gadiantons?

Not yet. That's in the future.

Since you're so so so sure about the future and how God feels, how do you see their repentance happening? Slap on the wrist?

Most likely few of them will die by the jab.

[Obeone]

I'd say Abraham's test was more intense than our's with covid.
A few month of inconvenience, etc.

I don't know, there are thousands upon thousands who sacrificed their loved ones on the altar of "follow the prophet, he knows the way."

The people that died by the jab, most likely did not listen to the Spirit on that point.

viewtopic.php?t=67786

[IsaiahVision]

Not yet. That's in the future.

Since you're so so so sure about the future and how God feels, how do you see their repentance happening? Slap on the wrist?

Most likely few of them will die by the jab.

Agreed; That is backed up by Revelations 18:23-24. Verse 24 specifically; Verse 23 talks about the 'pharmakia':

v24. "And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth."

[Reluctant Watchman]

I'd say Abraham's test was more intense than our's with covid.
A few month of inconvenience, etc.

I don't know, there are thousands upon thousands who sacrificed their loved ones on the altar of "follow the prophet, he knows the way."

The people that died by the jab, most likely did not listen to the Spirit on that point.

viewtopic.php?t=67786

Maybe. Maybe not. I actually think there are people who went against their own revelation, followed the prophet, and died so that they could be an example to all of us as to how awful that phrase really is for what it has become today. The prophet CAN (and has) led many astray.

[Fred]

True. In that aspect. In most important things though, they are still right.

By most things, do you mean accepting queers, partnering with WEF, joining The Secret Clergy Response Team, lying about masks, lying about safe and effective, closing temples when government did not require it, ordering Bishops and Stake Presidents to bear false witness, cheating on their taxes, disregarding God's warning of Moroni's trumpet, selling confidential genealogy records, stating that God was offended by the word Mormon, refusing to help homeless women with children, telling people in need to apply for government welfare and food stamps instead of helping them, selling high ticket items donated to the Deseret Industries to a fully for profit company owned by Elon Musk, lying about Ammon Bundy, dissolving office of Seventy, ordering KSL-TV and Radio and the Deseret News to lie every day and hide the truth at any cost, firing Steven Jones from BYU for telling the truth, lying about miracles in order to pretend God was with them, giving away their massive hospital holdings for free so that Intermountain could remove children's sex organs without parental consent, hiring million dollar attorneys to defend child rapists, etc., just a few off the top of my head.

Wow, it sounds miserable for you, with all that in "the top of your head!"

So much bitterness!

Did you ever consider that "bitterness" is not a fruit of the Spirit of God?

What spirit are you allowing to influence you? Did you ever stop and think about that?

You should.

One need not be bitter to tell the truth. You tell no truth. You only make assumptions. Guesses. I submit facts.
I attempt to love my fellow man. But I realize that I must be careful of those attempting to kill me. I am not bitter towards the Q15. I truthfully call them out for the scum that they are. But in truth, I do not care one way or the other towards them whether they live or die. It is not my responsibility. It is my responsibility to try and warn people that for whatever reason lack the mental capacity to know when people are tying to kill them.

[Obeone]

Respectfully, its been a few years and the ABUSE continues in Church for many. Obeone, I understand that you may not have been or feel abused. My daughter is going through a divorce from an abuser right now; I've learned a lot about abuse in the last three months. She did everything 'right', temple marriage, returned missionary, etc.....like many of us with regard to the Church.

For Infowarior82, RW, Fred, Chip, and many others...the source of their emotional anger, frustration, and 'not-an-honest-mistake' position is from the emotional and spiritual abuse they experienced from the Church. To the aforementioned jaded and abused, YOUR anger, positions, and feelings of doubt are very much justified and warranted!

Brother Obeone, I believe your not recognizing this is why you get overly attacked.

The Church's (narcissists?) leaders, for example, continue the emotional and spiritual abuse with gaslighting members with 'Follow the Prophet' talks, talks about not questioning leaders, and other such bullsh/&.

Stop the Abuse!

I am sorry for your suffering.

Might I suggest that all the above mentioned people do not lead with "the Church is apostate, and Q15 are devil worshipers?"

You might get a more receptive audience if you consider the possibility (which I know to be a fact), that the Q15 made an honest but deadly error, and that it is all a test to teach the Church to:

1) Follow the Spirit more than follow the prophet, because the Spirit outranks the prophet EVERY time, and
2) do not throw away the baby (the keys of the Kingdom of God on earth) together with bath water of "safe and effective" error.

How else can God disabuse the Church from about 100 years of prophet idol worship?

This had to be done to:

1) wake the Church up, and
2) to see who will deny the truth over an honest error of Q15.

Many on this forum fall into (#2). Pun intended.

Time to repent. We all need it.

[Chip]

Respectfully, its been a few years and the ABUSE continues in Church for many. Obeone, I understand that you may not have been or feel abused. My daughter is going through a divorce from an abuser right now; I've learned a lot about abuse in the last three months. She did everything 'right', temple marriage, returned missionary, etc.....like many of us with regard to the Church.

For Infowarior82, RW, Fred, Chip, and many others...the source of their emotional anger, frustration, and 'not-an-honest-mistake' position is from the emotional and spiritual abuse they experienced from the Church. To the aforementioned jaded and abused, YOUR anger, positions, and feelings of doubt are very much justified and warranted!

Brother Obeone, I believe your not recognizing this is why you get overly attacked.

The Church's (narcissists?) leaders, for example, continue the emotional and spiritual abuse with gaslighting members with 'Follow the Prophet' talks, talks about not questioning leaders, and other such bullsh/&.

Stop the Abuse!

I am sorry for your suffering.

Might I suggest that all the above mentioned people do not lead with "the Church is apostate, and Q15 are devil worshipers?"

You might get a more receptive audience if you consider the possibility (which I know to be a fact), that the Q15 made an honest but deadly error, and that it is all a test to teach the Church to:

1) Follow the Spirit more than follow the prophet, because the Spirit outranks the prophet EVERY time, and
2) do not throw away the baby (the keys of the Kingdom of God on earth) together with bath water of "safe and effective" error.

How else can God disabuse the Church from about 100 years of prophet idol worship?

This had to be done to:

1) wake the Church up, and
2) to see who will deny the truth over an honest error of Q15.

Many on this forum fall into (#2). Pun intended.

Time to repent. We all need it.

There's no sign, yet, that the church has ANY awareness that there is a problem. All is well, better than ever, perhaps. Doesn't seem like we're getting any closer to recognizing the problem. Actually, everyone is extraordinarily committed to NOT seeing the problem. Perhaps a greater disaster is in order, since nothing budged with this last fiasco.

[IsaiahVision]

How else can God disabuse the Church from about 100 years of prophet idol worship?

This had to be done to:

1) wake the Church up, and
2) to see who will deny the truth over an honest error of Q15.

Obeone, I don't disagree with you on the prophet idol-worship!

But, it seems you are suggesting that God created Covid-19 and/or purposely deceived the Prophet in order to 'wake the church up'? ...and test members?

Is that correct? Please clarify?