The Coronavirus Hoax

[IsaiahVision]

Those who do not know it, may die by a prophets advice, because they neglected the higher authority.

The scriptural reference for this is Ezekiel 14:10 !

That reference speaks of fallen prophets. Q15 are not.

I said nothing of the Q15. No it does not speak about fallen prophets. Please read Joseph Smith's comments on Ezekiel 14 (TPJS, page 237-238); also read JST Ezekiel 14.

[Being There]

What did the Lord say would happen to those who harm the innocent? Those who harm little ones?

What did the Lord say would happen to those who unite with secret combinations??

I already answered this. Q15 mistakes are not intentional. They are honest, innocent errors. They are not harming people on purpose, but by mistake. They did not join team devil, because if they had, I would not feel the Spirit of God from them, but I do.

I take His testimony over yours.

Odeone, there are plenty of reasons for members to be disaffected from the Church. ...innocent errors...like they didn't really mean to financially deceive members in the recent SEC findings and fines? Called of God they may be, but let's at least agree that they are men and are far from perfect. Let's also be clear on Church history, 13 apostles have been excommunicated since the restoration. Judas was on team devil and all men can fall from grace. We don't say that Judas' mistakes were not intentional.

If the Q15 were honest Men of God, should they not be confessing their errors? ...like now warning members that the Covid Shot is dangerous, that it wasn't actually a Godsend, that their vaxx donations to GAVI have hurt and killed people. I believe at least some of the Q15 are either grossly deceived, misled, don't know their scriptures, or are completely asleep (UN, Agenda 2030, bowing down to the Pope, associating with secret combinations, investing in companies fighting freedom liberty and that are pushing the Mark of the Beast, etc). ..."by their fruits you shall know them." The whole thing makes me sick, but all this is prophesied throughout the scriptures.

Isaiah, especially, rips latter-day PSR a new one and literally mocks them and says they are misleading members. I'm staying in the ship for now, but I'll go with Isaiah on this one. Happy to send you all the Isaiah references if you want.

here, you can also send him my 1000 also -
because I've posted more scriptures on Isaiah in this forum than anyone ever has.

Being There
search.php?keywords=Isaiah&terms=all&au ... mit=Search

when I was SPIRIT
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when I was I AM
search.php?keywords=Isaiah&terms=all&au ... mit=Search

and last but not least -
when I was Isaiah
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[InfoWarrior82]

There are things far worse than death.

He who "judgeth rashly shall be judged rashly again." (Mormon 8:19)

What did the Lord say would happen to those who harm the innocent? Those who harm little ones?

What did the Lord say would happen to those who unite with secret combinations??

I already answered this. Q15 mistakes are not intentional. They are honest, innocent errors. They are not harming people on purpose, but by mistake. They did not join team devil, because if they had, I would not feel the Spirit of God from them, but I do.

I take His testimony over yours.

What if I showed you proof that our church has officially joined with the United Nations to support Agenda 2030?

Do you think they should not have to repent for these mistakes?

[Ymarsakar]

The lies that the Q15 tell about masks and shots are NOT God's words.
God did not tell Uchtdorf to finance abortions.
The words of ANYONE that supports the UN, WEF, Black Lives Matter, NAACP, and other totally corrupt and satanic groups that the church finance, are evil words of satan, not God.
Even satan himself can quote scripture. None of the words the Q15 have spoken in the last 100 years are God's words. When satan or any of his disciples quote scripture it is not God's words. It is a mockery.

Fred, I agree with most of your post! Would you please expand/clarify your statement on "None of the words the Q15 have spoken in the last 100 years are God's words. When satan or any of his disciples quote scripture it is not God's words."

I would think stating absolutes (not backed by Holy Writ) could be more difficult to prove? If Satan can quote scripture, the Q15 cannot? I also believe Satan can quote scripture, but then always twists it. Q15 obviously have as well...."wresting the scriptures".

What is your definition please of "God's words"? Are God's words not counted as at least written canonized scripture and/or personal revelation that the HG witnesses as true? There are lots of scripture references for 'Word of God'; just to quote one:

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Thanks!

There is an underlying belief or doctrine, due perhaps to Brigham Young's words in the Journal of Discourse, that any word issued by a prophet, esp at General Conference, is equivalent to scripture.

Thus sayeth the YHVH (which is strangely translated as lord, which includes lords like bhaal/baal and even kings like james).

I adopt parts of Fred's position as well as Odeone's position. Synthesizing them together with my own experiences, when a person takes the "waxxine", they may indeed feel a connection to other people who also take the waxxine. THe same is true of psi talents, mushrooms, and other spiritual practices. You start to feel an affinity for those at your frequency. But the Satanic MRNA shots makes you feel the unHoly Spirit. That is likely the spirit you feel from others in the LDS that have taken it.

THat's not the Holy Spirit. That's the UnHoly Spirit.

People who believed in the shots, began advocating for the shots, even as their personality changed in 2021. They were hesitant/resistant, then they take the shot, now they are evangelizing for it akin to AI prophets.

The same is true of true mormon believers. If you believe in a book or practice or religion, you will evangelize for it. This is the spirit. But which spirit is it?

[Obeone]

Odeone, there are plenty of reasons for members to be disaffected from the Church.

But no good ones.

...innocent errors?...like they didn't really mean to financially deceive members in the recent SEC findings and fines?

They were seeking to legally protect Church funds from the exceedingly wicked and rotten SEC. That is honorable. The corruption and criminality at SEC is legendary!
In due time God will erase SEC and every other corrupt organization from the face of the earth, and we will have no king but Jesus. Not long now. You will see.

Called of God they may be, but let's at least agree that they are men and are far from perfect. Let's also be clear on Church history, 13 apostles have been excommunicated since the restoration. Judas was on team devil and all men can fall from grace. We don't say that Judas' mistakes were not intentional.

Yes, Judas was team devil. But the majority of the twelve never will be. Why? Because according to the Lord this is the FINAL dispensation, and His "kingdom coming forth for the LAST time", which means this dispensation will not be destroyed by an apostasy. God will not allow it. He will soften or remove all the heads in the church that impede his work, and it will not be destroyed by apostasy. Not this time.

This promise is sure.

If the Q15 were honest Men of God, should they not be confessing their errors? ...like now warning members that the Covid Shot is dangerous, that it wasn't actually a Godsend, that their vaxx donations to GAVI have hurt and killed people.

They will, perhaps at the same time when they admit that Adam made a deadly error, and that there was a better way for him in the garden, had he listened to the Father. That will happen within 7 years, just before the New Jerusalem.

I believe at least some of the Q15 are either grossly deceived, misled, don't know their scriptures, or are completely asleep (UN, Agenda 2030, bowing down to the Pope, associating with secret combinations, investing in companies fighting freedom and liberty and that support the Mark of the Beast, etc).

Yes. But these are honest mistakes (where they are mistakes). Some of these things may not be mistakes at all:

 D&C 82:
22 And now, verily I say unto you, and this is wisdom, make unto yourselves friends with the mammon of unrighteousness, and they will not destroy you.
23 Leave judgment alone with me, for it is mine and I will repay. Peace be with you; my blessings continue with you.

===

..."by their fruits you shall know them."

Indeed. Majority of their fruit is good.

And where they are in honest error, God will correct it, and turn it for the benefit of the Church.

The whole thing makes me sick, but all this is prophesied throughout the Holy Scriptures. Where is the honest discussion and humility becoming Men of God?

I find them sufficiently humble. If they were not, the Spirit would not remain with them. But it does.

Isaiah, especially, rips latter-day PSRs a new one and literally mocks them and states they are misleading and confusing members.

Isaiah was not referring to Q15 as fallen, because they are not. Mistaken, yes. Fallen, no!

I know that.

I'm 'staying in the ship' for now, but I'll go with Isaiah on this one. Happy to send you all the Isaiah references if you want.

I now look for guidance only from the Lord, the Holy Spirit, and the Scriptures.

That is good. Stay with the ship Zion. I do. And it will be well with all those who do, because if you follow the Spirit, you will stay with the Church, because it is true (as far as the keys are concerned).

This is my testimony.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Def: Apologist ^^^

[IsaiahVision]

Odeone, there are plenty of reasons for members to be disaffected from the Church.

But no good ones.

...sexual abuse cover up by and from leadership? ...harsh unrighteous excommunication of members (prophesied in the last days in Isaiah and the Assention of Isaiah?) Well, there might be a few, brother.

...innocent errors?...like they didn't really mean to financially deceive members in the recent SEC findings and fines?

They were seeking to legally protect Church funds from the exceedingly wicked and rotten SEC. That is honorable. The corruption and criminality at SEC is legendary!
In due time God will erase SEC and every other corrupt organization from the face of the earth, and we will have no king but Jesus. Not long now. You will see.

I ask if you have actually read the SEC Filing? ...where they admitted they were hiding knowledge of funds, not from the SEC, but from members of the church.

I believe at least some of the Q15 are either grossly deceived, misled, don't know their scriptures, or are completely asleep (UN, Agenda 2030, bowing down to the Pope, associating with secret combinations, investing in companies fighting freedom and liberty and that support the Mark of the Beast, etc).

Yes. But these are honest mistakes (where they are mistakes). Some of these things may not be mistakes at all:

 
I can accept, Yes. If so, are they not as Isaiah mocks them...blind and dumb watchdogs (Isaiah 56:10)? Something is just not adding up? I thought they were prophets, seers, and revelators? I don't personally go mix company with satanist and secret combinations. Where is their discernment? I don't give money to the mob to be their friend? Obeone, please help me understand given the weight of evidence.

[Obeone]

I can accept, Yes. If so, are they not as Isaiah mocks them...blind and dumb watchdogs (Isaiah 56:10)? Something is just not adding up? I thought they were prophets, seers, and revelators? I don't personally go mix company with satanist and secret combinations. Where is their discernment? I don't give money to the mob to be their friend? Obeone, please help me understand given the weight of evidence.

If someone is a prophet, does not mean he is omniscient, or that he is always at the top of his game. Jacob was a prophet and seer, but for 22 years he was clueless that his son Joseph was alive in Egypt. Examples of this are many.

So these men do make mistakes. But not all we might think a mistake, actually is such.

How do you explain this scripture?

D&C 82:
22 And now, verily I say unto you, and this is wisdom, make unto yourselves friends with the mammon of unrighteousness, and they will not destroy you.
23 Leave judgment alone with me, for it is mine and I will repay. Peace be with you; my blessings continue with you.

This said, I agree, the Church is under condemnation and is in the wilderness for almost 200 years. This is why we have not heard "Thus saith the Lord" as a Church for over a century. The saying that "we don't have to say it to give His word" is a cop-out.

We have not heard it because it seems we have prophets that do not prophesy, seers that do not see, and revelators that do not reveal.

This said, it is possible they prophesy in private. But the fact that we have not heard it as a Church speaks volumes of the state of the Church.

But all this is coming to an end. Within 7 years the Church will be cleansed. Those who remain, those who survive, will hear "Thus saith the Lord" again.

Until then, let everyone choose for themselves where they stand. I will stay with this Church because I know that the true keys of the Priesthood are here. I know it for myself. God revealed it to me.

[Being There]

I can accept, Yes. If so, are they not as Isaiah mocks them...blind and dumb watchdogs (Isaiah 56:10)? Something is just not adding up? I thought they were prophets, seers, and revelators? I don't personally go mix company with satanist and secret combinations. Where is their discernment? I don't give money to the mob to be their friend? Obeone, please help me understand given the weight of evidence.

If someone is a prophet, does not mean he is omniscient, or that he is always at the top of his game. Jacob was a prophet and seer, but for 22 years he was clueless that his son Joseph was alive in Egypt. Examples of this are many.

So these men do make mistakes. But not all we might think a mistake, actually is such.

How do you explain this scripture?

D&C 82:
22 And now, verily I say unto you, and this is wisdom, make unto yourselves friends with the mammon of unrighteousness, and they will not destroy you.
23 Leave judgment alone with me, for it is mine and I will repay. Peace be with you; my blessings continue with you.

This said, I agree, the Church is under condemnation and is in the wilderness for almost 200 years. This is why we have not heard "Thus saith the Lord" as a Church for over a century. The saying that "we don't have to say it to give His word" is a cop-out.

We have not heard it because it seems we have prophets that do not prophesy, seers that do not see, and revelators that do not reveal.

This said, it is possible they prophesy in private. But the fact that we have not heard it as a Church speaks volumes of the state of the Church.

But all this is coming to an end. Within 7 years the Church will be cleansed. Those who remain, those who survive, will hear "Thus saith the Lord" again.

Until then, let everyone choose for themselves where they stand.
I will stay with this Church because I know that the true keys of the Priesthood are here. I know it for myself. God revealed it to me.

and I choose to stand with the Lord - serving Him -
and not with a church that has become corrupt and serves Babylon -
which it has become part of - serving the leaders of the World
and satan - who they serve.

"choose you this day whom ye will serve.....
but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD"

[IsaiahVision]

Obeone, thank you, Brother! I believe your last reply was well thought out, logical, not apologetic, and acknowledged many of the issues (wrongs)...and we can agree on much!

On your referenced scripture, one Church website manual says:

D&C 82:22. Why Is the Church Commanded to Make Friends with the “Mammon of Unrighteousness”?
“The commandment of the Lord that the saints should make themselves ‘friends with the mammon of unrighteousness,’ seems to be a hard saying when not properly understood. It is not intended that in making friends of the ‘mammon of unrighteousness’ that the brethren were to partake with them in their sins; to receive them to their bosoms, intermarry with them and … come down to their level. They were to so live that peace with their enemies might be assured. They were to treat them kindly, be friendly with them as far as correct and virtuous principles would permit, but never to swear with them or drink and carouse with them. If they could allay prejudice and show a willingness to trade with and show a kindly spirit, it might help to turn them away from their bitterness. Judgment was to be left with the Lord.” (Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation, 1:323.)

My concern is that the Church is being way more than just 'friendly'. Notice the Bold parts above. The key is not to partake of the 'sins'. Church new-stories clearly show it is actively supporting, hosting, and partaking along with the "mammon of unrighteousness" (using tithing money, no less), and actively promoting the vaxx, UN, and Agenda 2030 in General Conference! WTH. They have been using Agenda 2030 terminology code words...like "good global citizen" BS. "Safe and effective" anyone? The Church has edited/changed old GC conference talks that might offend their good-buddy UN Globalist, as another example.

I've been telling my member friends, that for me, it seems like the Daughter of Zion is literally 'in bed' with the Whore of Babylon committing fornication! I'm about ready to nail my own 95 Thesis to the Church door...as my 14GGF Martin Luther did!

Obeone, we agree the Church has been 'off track' for a while. But, I think it has slide off way more in the last ten years. Let us also agree that the Church isn't fully obeying/following the D&C. I will state that I have recently prayed for the Q15; I want them to do what is right, to be Men of God, and lead this Church right.

But, why can we not have these discussions except from behind the anonymity of this forum or behind closed doors? Why do we have to hide? Why can we not ask questions? Why are some of us threatened with excommunication? Reluctant Watchman answered that question from the Nemenhah Records, 2nd Book of Samuel

"60) Yea, in your day, if a man hears the words of some Prophet and, seeking the confirmation of the Holy Ghost, fails to receive it, but receives instead a witness that the utterance is false or misguided, behold, he shall be brought up before the counsels and he shall be persecuted for having received such a witness. And they shall scourge him bitterly with their words and shall even cast him out from among them."

Now, I'm not kidding, my Bishopric and EQ'ric avoids me like the plague....like I'm carrying a Glock in one hand and the Book of Isaiah in the other. (...actually, that's not far from the truth.) Now, they say we dare not let IsaiahVision preach the true Word of God in Church...for fire and brimstone and the wrath of God may fall on us! (screaming)

...sorry for the rant, that was my therapy.

I believe we need to recognize and understand the distinct difference between the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ. See "The Gospel and the Church", By Elder Ronald E. Poelman, First Quorum of the Seventy, General Conference October, 1984. Please note that this is only one of the GC talks changed by the church. Google or Youtube to find original version

The Gospel is perfect; the Church is not. So, what is going on with the church and the Men of God? What saith the scriptures?
D&C 86:1-2
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servants, concerning the parable of the wheat and of the tares:
2 Behold, verily I say, the field was the world, and the apostles were the sowers of the seed; And after they have fallen asleep the great persecutor of the church, the apostate, the whore, even Babylon, that maketh all nations to drink of her cup, in whose hearts the enemy, even Satan, sitteth to reign—behold he soweth the tares; wherefore, the tares choke the wheat and drive the church into the wilderness.

or, how about

D&C 101-43-69
43 And now, I will show unto you a parable, that you may know my will concerning the redemption of Zion.
45 And set watchmen round about them, and build a tower, that one may overlook the land round about, to be a watchman upon the tower, that mine olive trees may not be broken down when the enemy shall come to spoil and take upon themselves the fruit of my vineyard.
48 And consulted for a long time, saying among themselves: What need hath my lord of this tower, seeing this is a time of peace?
50 And while they were at variance one with another they became very slothful, and they hearkened not unto the commandments of their lord.

"they" are the apostles. What happens next?

51 And the enemy came by night, and broke down the hedge; and the servants of the nobleman arose and were affrighted, and fled; and the enemy destroyed their works, and broke down the olive trees.

Parable or prophecy? Here is another one from Isaiah:

Ascension of Isaiah, Chapter 3
21. And afterwards, on the eve of His approach, His disciples will forsake the teachings of the Twelve Apostles, and their faith, and their love and their purity.

24. And there will be many lawless elders, and shepherds (Bishops and SP?) dealing wrongly by their own sheep, and they will ravage (them) owing to their not having holy shepherds.
25. And many will change the honour of the garments of the saints for the garments of the covetous, and there will be much respect of persons in those days and lovers of the honour of this world.

26. And there will be much slander and vainglory at the approach of the Lord, and the Holy Spirit will withdraw from many.
27. And there will NOT be in those days (latter days) many prophets, nor those who speak trustworthy words, save one here and there in divers places.

28. On account of the spirit of error and fornication and of vainglory, and of covetousness, which shall be in those, who will be called servants of that One and in those who will receive that One.
29. And there will be great hatred in the shepherds and elders towards each other.

30. For there will be great jealousy in the last days; for every one will say what is pleasing in his own eyes.
31. And they will make of none effect the prophecy of the prophets which were before me, and these my visions also will they make of none effect, in order to speak after the impulse of their own hearts.



Brothers and Sisters, All is NOT well in Zion! In my studies, I have accumulated some 14 pages of scriptures and prophecy covering this topic. I fully recognize our awful situation. May God have mercy upon us. Praise the Lord, for His ways are righteous!

Throughout Bible and BoM history, the Church of God goes through cycles of righteousness and apostasy. Can anyone tell me why the latter-day church should be any different?

What would I preach to all of you? Stay 'in the boat' for for now if you haven't already left; I'm not exactly a 'happy camper' either. There is no reason to make a quick rash decision. Feast upon the scriptures. Repent of all your sins; do His will. Develop your faith and testimony and personal relationship with the Lord God Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. May God bless all of you. Amen

[Reluctant Watchman]

What would I preach to all of you? Stay 'in the boat' for for now if you haven't already left; I'm not exactly a 'happy camper' either. There is no reason to make a quick rash decision. Feast upon the scriptures. Repent of all your sins; do His will. Develop your faith and testimony and personal relationship with the Lord God Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. May God bless all of you. Amen

My spirit can't stay w/ the church. The fruits have become so rotten that my spirit is repulsed by what it has become. And I'm not talking about everything. There are so many good people striving to do their best, but there are some extremely vital truths that have become so corrupted that if you "stay in the boat" you will be stopping your progress toward God. For many of us, the decision to leave the org has neither been quick nor rash but has entailed years of prayer and supplication, and an overwhelming outpouring of love from God.

I also don't think it's a matter of being a "happy camper" either. It's about doing what God has placed in your heart. For many, this may mean staying w/ the church, but I honestly have a hard time believing that those who are "awake" will be in good standing with their leaders. How can you pay money for your salvation when it is done incorrectly? How can you "sustain" your leaders when they preach that this sustaining is an oath-like covenant to obey them? How can you raise up your idols of men and houses of worship? In my mind, the Lord has been quite clear that he will take from them the fullness of the gospel. Why would you stay w/ an organization that has lost the gospel and preaches philosophies that directly contradict Christ's teachings?

God is so much more loving and kind than what the LDS org has taught since the supposed "transfiguration" of Brigham Young. I fully believe that a day will come, if it has not already, when you must choose to either follow man or place your trust in the Lord. You cannot remain a disciple of Christ and retain your membership in such an organization w/ their beliefs, traditions, and philosophies.

[Ymarsakar]

"Why would you stay w/ an organization that has lost the gospel and preaches philosophies that directly contradict Christ's teachings?"

1. The apocalypse is here and fellowship is more important for survival than doctrine is, especially if it is a good opportunity for the saints to exercise apotheosis tests or merely self independence and self sufficiency

2. There are many more left in the org who need support and who, if abandoned, would have no other recourse than to Obey authority.

3. The matter of which gods humanity worship and which churches are organizations legit or not, is not everyone's responsibility. Are you responsible for the catholic universal church of god? Which god one wonders. Which universe even. All you are responsible for is your own salvation and progress. Other people's problems are their own responsibility to resolve. Or for the designated leaders and holy ones of god to deal with.

"Why would you stay w/ an organization that has lost the gospel and preaches philosophies that directly contradict Christ's teachings?"

4. The entire species directly contradict the Christ's teachings. Should the entire species be exterminated and punished as a result?

"You cannot remain a disciple of Christ and retain your membership in such an organization w/ their beliefs, traditions, and philosophies."

That is your own personal test and hurdle, but do not make the mistake of projecting that unto everybody else in the same species. You are not responsible for 8 billion people, let alone 1 billion or 1 million people. That is NOT your calling. You are acting like a wannabe prophet calling an entire species or people/group to repentance. Nobody gave you that authority. Thus you hate in others what you are apt to do yourself.

[Reluctant Watchman]

"Why would you stay w/ an organization that has lost the gospel and preaches philosophies that directly contradict Christ's teachings?"

1. The apocalypse is here and fellowship is more important for survival than doctrine is, especially if it is a good opportunity for the saints to exercise apotheosis tests or merely self independence and self sufficiency

2. There are many more left in the org who need support and who, if abandoned, would have no other recourse than to Obey authority.

3. The matter of which gods humanity worship and which churches are organizations legit or not, is not everyone's responsibility. Are you responsible for the catholic universal church of god? Which god one wonders. Which universe even. All you are responsible for is your own salvation and progress. Other people's problems are their own responsibility to resolve. Or for the designated leaders and holy ones of god to deal with.

"Why would you stay w/ an organization that has lost the gospel and preaches philosophies that directly contradict Christ's teachings?"

4. The entire species directly contradict the Christ's teachings. Should the entire species be exterminated and punished as a result?

"You cannot remain a disciple of Christ and retain your membership in such an organization w/ their beliefs, traditions, and philosophies."

That is your own personal test and hurdle, but do not make the mistake of projecting that unto everybody else in the same species. You are not responsible for 8 billion people, let alone 1 billion or 1 million people. That is NOT your calling. You are acting like a wannabe prophet calling an entire species or people/group to repentance. Nobody gave you that authority. Thus you hate in others what you are apt to do yourself.

Your response suggests that the LDS org is the only viable solution. It is not. Your response is a bit black and white.

[IsaiahVision]

RW, for my first major post, I actually feel pretty good that you only took issue with my last paragraph!
That's because we 'agree on much'.

My spirit can't stay w/ the church. The fruits have become so rotten that my spirit is repulsed by what it has become. And I'm not talking about everything. There are so many good people striving to do their best, but there are some extremely vital truths that have become so corrupted that if you "stay in the boat" you will be stopping your progress toward God. For many of us, the decision to leave the org has neither been quick nor rash but has entailed years of prayer and supplication, and an overwhelming outpouring of love from God.

Brother, I understand if you can't stay. But, don't you still have your records in the church? ...you mentioned elsewhere about updating your resignation letter or something? I saw your new post on your friend's church court letter. I actually got mad and started a scathing rant that I had to delete before I posted! I was about to go too far and wasn't 'measured'.

I too am repulsed. "stopping your progess"...unless you already recognize and understand the vital truths. Just because a member leaves the Church doesn't mean that they will instantly understand vital truths. I think we would agree that each must obtain line upon line through individual prayer and scripture study?

Ok, many of you may not have made "quick or rash decisions", but some actually do. I know some of these. My daughter is one; she is neither studied in the scriptures nor sees things logically. So, I concede I would need to correct my statement.

I also don't think it's a matter of being a "happy camper" either. It's about doing what God has placed in your heart.

'Happy camper' was just a phrase for me to acknowledge that I am not happy and recognize the 'stink'. Nothing more to read into that.

...but I honestly have a hard time believing that those who are "awake" will be in good standing with their leaders. How can you pay money for your salvation when it is done incorrectly? How can you "sustain" your leaders when they preach that this sustaining is an oath-like covenant to obey them? How can you raise up your idols of men and houses of worship? In my mind, the Lord has been quite clear that he will take from them the fullness of the gospel.

I agree with most of this statement. To clarify:
As my wife points out....I'm not exactly in good standing or full-fellowship because, for now, they just ignore me.
We are not currently paying tithing to the corporation.
I'm avoiding sustaining anybody and made huge 'carve-outs' in the sustaining question in my last 'failed' temple recommend interview attempt.

Why would you stay w/ an organization that has lost the gospel and preaches philosophies that directly contradict Christ's teachings?

RW, an extremely valid question! Guys, I'm not TBM-blind, nor have I decided to 'abandon ship'. Just because I have decided, at the moment, to let my records 'sit', doesn't mean I'm 'following the prophet', or believe false doctrine, or don't see the corruption. Though my record remains, I consider myself independent from the church and working things out directly with the HG and the Lord. God, the Holy Spirit, and the Church of the Firstborn ALL outrank 'the Church'.

RW, I believe I have already "plucked out the eye" (JST Mark 9) in many instances.

Let me present some scriptures.
First, Speaking of Ezekiel 14, Joseph Smith said (TPSM pg 237-238) "the Lord had declared by the Prophet (Ezekiel) that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in the state of corruption of the Jewish church, that righteous persons could deliver only their own souls,..."

Yep, that's what I'm trying to do!

KJV Ezekiel 14:14, 16
14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord God.
16 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.

I believe "in it" means 'in the corrupt state of the Jewish church'. These righteous men (Noah, Daniel, and Job) were 'in the church', but working out their own salvation, seeing through the false doctrine of their corrupt church and the lies of their time.

D&C 85:7
And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

Is it not prophesied throughout the scriptures that the latter-day church would become corrupt, and that the Lord would also clean his own house first?

Let's review the parable in D&C 101....
43 And now, I will show unto you a parable, that you may know my will concerning the redemption of Zion.

45 And set watchmen round about them, and build a tower, that one may overlook the land round about, to be a watchman upon the tower, that mine olive trees may not be broken down when the enemy shall come to spoil and take upon themselves the fruit of my vineyard.
48 And consulted for a long time, saying among themselves: What need hath my lord of this tower, seeing this is a time of peace?

50 And while they were at variance one with another they became very slothful, and they hearkened not unto the commandments of their lord.
51 And the enemy came by night, and broke down the hedge; and the servants of the nobleman arose and were affrighted, and fled; and the enemy destroyed their works, and broke down the olive trees.

52 Now, behold, the nobleman, the lord of the vineyard, called upon his servants, and said unto them, Why! what is the cause of this great evil?
54 And behold, the watchman upon the tower would have seen the enemy while he was yet afar off; and then ye could have made ready and kept the enemy from breaking down the hedge thereof, and saved my vineyard from the hands of the destroyer.

55 And the lord of the vineyard said unto one of his servants: Go and gather together the residue of my servants, and take all the strength of mine house, which are my warriors, my young men, and they that are of middle age also among all my servants, who are the strength of mine house, save those only whom I have appointed to tarry;
56 And go ye straightway unto the land of my vineyard, and redeem my vineyard; for it is mine; I have bought it with money.

57 Therefore, get ye straightway unto my land; break down the walls of mine enemies; throw down their tower, and scatter their watchmen.
59 And the servant said unto his lord: When shall these things be?

60 And he said unto his servant: When I will; go ye straightway, and do all things whatsoever I have commanded you;
61 And this shall be my seal and blessing upon you—a faithful and wise steward in the midst of mine house, a ruler in my kingdom.

62 And his servant went straightway, and did all things whatsoever his lord commanded him; and after many days all things were fulfilled.
63 Again, verily I say unto you, I will show unto you wisdom in me concerning all the churches, inasmuch as they are willing to be guided in a right and proper way for their salvation—

64 That the work of the gathering together of my saints may continue, that I may build them up unto my name upon holy places; for the time of harvest is come, and my word must needs be fulfilled.
65 Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man according as his work shall be;

66 While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire.
67 Therefore, a commandment I give unto all the churches, that they shall continue to gather together unto the places which I have appointed.


So, here is IV's modern-day summary:

V43. This parable is a forewarning and prophetic view (of what is currently taking place in the church) and to stay ‘watchful’.
v44-45. The Lord instructs his apostles (servants).
v46. The servants work and build Zion.
v47. The Lord's servants quit building Zion (the watchtower) and question the Lord.
v48. They forgot that we are at war with Satan and his kingdom…Babylon.
v49. They invested the Lord's money with Babylonian money-exchangers amassing hundreds of billions of dollars.
v50. They argued amongst themselves for some time and became slothful (so some of them must have wanted to obey God).
v51. The enemy snuck up on them in the dark, scattered the servants, destroyed their works, and broke down the olive trees (the stakes and wards of the Church).
v52, 54. The Lord is pissed off.
v55. The Lord fights back, assembles his warriors (“who are the strength of mine house”) at LDSFF
v56-57. The Lord order to attack!
V67. Please stay in the boat until all things shall be fulfilled by the Lord.

These scriptures are why I chose for myself to 'stay in the stinking boat'...for now. But, I fully respect any other opposing view and your right to choose for yourself! We may, indeed, have different 'missions'.
Peace

[Reluctant Watchman]

RW, for my first major post, I actually feel pretty good that you only took issue with my last paragraph!
That's because we 'agree on much'.

I'll keep this brief and succinct:

1. Yes, we do agree on much

2. My records are in the church for now. And yes, I have a drafted letter of my resignation/removal from the organization. (I mean, come on, when my stake president catches wind of my website, or chooses to meet in person, I'm a goner for sure.) While historically "the Lord's people" have organized as a church, that has no bearing on what we are experiencing in the apostate nature of the modern church. It is a corporation. A corrupt one at that. The Lord's people are true disciples who follow His gospel. When the structured org departs from the Lord's teachings, I will gladly depart from the corporation. Keys are knowledge. Authority, as amply taught in the BoM, is given by the Lord and is just as readily removed through apostasy.

3. Yes, the scriptures do teach that the latter-day church will become corrupt. But that doesn't mean the Lord will work within those confines to bring about a renewal. In fact, he prophesied that he would take the gospel from them. Moroni repeats this prophecy in his writings. The LDS org does not follow nor believe many truths as taught (the fullness if you will) from the Book of Mormon. There will be a cleansing, but the structure, IMO, will decay. The Lord will have new bottles for new wine.

4. I believe the church has corrupted this "path to salvation." Or, as they like to say "the covenant path." While D&C has some wonderful counsel, it is not a hard-fast rule that the Lord will remain w/ said organization.

5. Zion will be built, but it will be among the pure in heart. I do not believe this will happen w/in the LDS org. They have shown their cards and who they worship.

[Obeone]

Throughout Bible and BoM history, the Church of God goes through cycles of righteousness and apostasy. Can anyone tell me why the latter-day church should be any different?

Already answered that:

the majority of the twelve never will be [in apostasy]. Why? Because according to the Lord this is the FINAL dispensation, and His "kingdom coming forth for the LAST time", which means this dispensation will not be destroyed by an apostasy. God will not allow it. He will soften or remove all the heads in the church that impede his work, and it will not be destroyed by apostasy. Not this time.

This promise is sure.

Thanks.

[Reluctant Watchman]

the majority of the twelve never will be [in apostasy]. Why? Because according to the Lord this is the FINAL dispensation, and His "kingdom coming forth for the LAST time", which means this dispensation will not be destroyed by an apostasy. God will not allow it. He will soften or remove all the heads in the church that impede his work, and it will not be destroyed by apostasy. Not this time.

One of the greatest fallacies of the modern LDS org. The BoM teaches otherwise. God's people are not always an institution. God WILL allow ANY group to go wayward. To suggest otherwise is the epitome of pride. It flies in the face of agency (aka free will). God will not compel any group to live the gospel or teachings of Christ.

[Obeone]

D&C 101

You are misinterpreting this section.
It speaks of the reasons for expulsion of the saints from the land of Zion.

It does not refer to the current Q15.

Current Q15 are doing what the Lord commanded in this very section:

 D&C 101:
67 Therefore, a commandment I give unto all the churches, that they shall continue to gather together unto the places which I have appointed.
68 Nevertheless, as I have said unto you in a former commandment, let not your gathering be in haste, nor by flight; but let all things be prepared before you.
69 And in order that all things be prepared before you, observe the commandment which I have given concerning these things—
70 Which saith, or teacheth, to purchase all the lands with money, which can be purchased for money, in the region round about the land which I have appointed to be the land of Zion, for the beginning of the gathering of my saints;
71 All the land which can be purchased in Jackson county, and the counties round about, and leave the residue in mine hand.
72 Now, verily I say unto you, let all the churches gather together all their moneys; let these things be done in their time, but not in haste; and observe to have all things prepared before you.
73 And let honorable men be appointed, even wise men, and send them to purchase these lands.
74 And the churches in the eastern countries, when they are built up, if they will hearken unto this counsel they may buy lands and gather together upon them; and in this way they may establish Zion.

They are doing exactly that.

[Reluctant Watchman]

73 And let honorable men be appointed, even wise men, and send them to purchase these lands.
74 And the churches in the eastern countries, when they are built up, if they will hearken unto this counsel they may buy lands and gather together upon them; and in this way they may establish Zion.

Sounds like your "wise men" got their hands caught in the cookie jar. Is it honorable to request an incorrect tithe, hurting the poorest among you, and then hiding mountains upon mountains of money from the members because you are afraid they won't keep paying you money?

Wise as a serpent, that's for sure.

[Obeone]

God's people are not always an institution. God WILL allow ANY group to go wayward. To suggest otherwise is the epitome of pride. It flies in the face of agency (aka free will). God will not compel any group to live the gospel or teachings of Christ.

This is His Kingdom. He will do in it as He pleases. This is why He will not allow it to be led astray too far.
This dispensation will not be destroyed by an apostasy not because God will interfere with agency, but because He will kill those who do not comply.

Big difference.

That is why this Church and dispensation are different from all that were before.

This is the point that you guys do not understand, but God will teach it to you, if you survive.

[Reluctant Watchman]

This is His Kingdom. He will do in it as He pleases.

You think the Kingdom is an organization. Scripture would suggest otherwise.

BTW, the way of heaven is not compulsion. God will not force the corporate church to stave off apostasy.

Believing that your church is the ONLY path back to God is the very belief that will slow or stop your progression back toward God.

[Obeone]

This is His Kingdom. He will do in it as He pleases.

You think the Kingdom is an organization. Scripture would suggest otherwise.

You are wrong. By the very definition of the word, a kingdom IS an organization, or it is not a kingdom. You are literally wrong.

BTW, the way of heaven is not compulsion. God will not force the corporate church to stave off apostasy.

He will not force anyone to heaven, but he will send them to hell, if they do not repent: "depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (3 Nephi 14:23)
This is how God will cleans his Church: he will soften or remove all the heads that impede His work.

His words.

Deal with it.

Believing that your church is the ONLY path back to God is the very belief that will slow or stop your progression back toward God.

God's church is the only path back into His heavenly kingdom. There is, and there can be no other. Because God's "house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion." (D&C 132: 8)

You cannot inherit His Kingdom by fighting it. You, like all the apostates before you, will learn that. Just being frank here.

[Reluctant Watchman]

This is His Kingdom. He will do in it as He pleases.

You think the Kingdom is an organization. Scripture would suggest otherwise.

You are wrong. By the very definition of the word, a kingdom IS an organization, or it is not a kingdom. You are literally wrong.

BTW, the way of heaven is not compulsion. God will not force the corporate church to stave off apostasy.

He will not force anyone to heaven, but he will send them to hell, if they do not repent: "depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (3 Nephi 14:23)
This is how God will cleans his Church: he will soften or remove all the heads that impede His work.

His words.

Deal with it.

Believing that your church is the ONLY path back to God is the very belief that will slow or stop your progression back toward God.

God's church is the only path back into His kingdom. There is, and there can be no other. Because God's "house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion." (D&C 132: 8)

You cannot inherit His Kingdom by fighting it. You, like all the apostates before you, will learn that. Just being frank here.

While my opinions are far from perfect, I feel strongly that I am not in error in believing that the Lord prophesied the apostasy of the modern LDS org.

The LDS org version of mortality is a bit black and white. The purpose of mortality is to learn. We will always be given the opportunity to progress. This life is not a courtroom, but a classroom. I've come to understand that some LDS theology focuses heavily on shame. I believe this is in error.

I guess we'll just have to compare notes after this life.

[Obeone]

This life is not a courtroom, but a classroom.

It is both:

 Alma 34:
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.
36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

Men are their own judges, and their own tormentors.

[Reluctant Watchman]

It is both:

No, it is not. It is a classroom, period. There is eternal progression.