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Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 1:53 pm
by cab
skylight wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 1:20 pm
Anyone can fall in their given station, mantle or calling.
Ex. Lucifer, who was son of the morning, all the heavens wept over him, all this whil in direct KNOWLEDGE he wasn’t in front of the brightest light in universe and STILL fell.
Ex. King David, was highly favored of the Lord and had an exaltation, and FELL from his exaltation. Failed his test.
Ex. Judas Iscariot , was one of the 12 apostles of the Son of God, and chose to betray Him. Fell from his station.
Ex. Oliver Cowdery, was the 2nd one baptized on our dispensation, helped translate the golden plates, gave the original charge to the Apostles they all had to see the face of God in ordered to be considered a true apostle. Fell from his position,
Ex. Countless others in the early Restoration fell due to trusting in the flesh (Joseph said they were darkened in their minds for depending on the prophet too much) aspiring spirits, spirits of speculation, lusts, contention, lyings, etc.
ANYONE.CAN. FALL.
Anyone can be deceived by Doctines of devils or doctrines of man:
* “be not seduced by doctrines of devils” D&C 46:7.
*“that which does not edify is not of God,” D&C 50:23.
*”many shall teach vain, foolish, false doctrines” 2 Ne. 28:9.
*because of false doctrine, churches will be corrupted,” 2 Ne. 28:12.
*”many are blinded by subtle craftiness of men,” D&C 123:12
This is why we are to take the Holy Spirit as our guide
Or any institution?
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 1:53 pm
by Zathura
NewEliza wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 1:51 pm
nightlight wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 10:10 am
The blood Atonment is worse then homosexuality....... change my mind.......
Lol you guys are always talking about how it's "true", but can't use your own words to shed its light.... if something is true...expound.
More likely than not you'll just say in your own head... "it's just something only the advanced Christian can comprehend" lol.
I promise....it's not.
I would stake my life on this...would you?
" Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear brecord of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso abelieveth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are bone.
37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and abecome as a blittle child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little achild, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a bsandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
------------------------------------
"Will you love your brothers and sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Deseret News, April 16, 1856
The time has been in Israel under the law of God, the celestial law, or that which pertains to the celestial law, for it is one of the laws of that kingdom where our Father dwells, that if a man was found guilty of adultery, he must have his blood shed, and that is near at hand.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, p. 219
"Any of you who understand the principles of eternity – if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death – would not be satisfied or rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain the salvation you desire. This is the way to love mankind.”
It shocks me you people believe this.....it literally makes me lose hope in us.
Pulling quotes does not constitute understanding of the doctrine. If you don’t understand the doctrine then that’s fine. I understand it well I think, and the only way to explain it is to tell you to do your own studying.
You can’t just pour this kind of information into someone’s head. If you care to know, do the work.
People can “do the work” and convince themselves of literally anything. That doesn’t make their beliefs true.
-See literally any cult as an example
That’s why God gave scripture. We have a bar by which to compare and measure all things. That bar proves Adam God theory, blood atonement, and many other things wrong.
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 1:56 pm
by mahalanobis
I watched the video in the OP.
It seems that the BYU professors (and our leaders and members) have adopted the opinion that gay hand-holding is equivalent to hetero hand-holding. This amounts to being "poisoned by degrees" and this belief needs to be rooted out immediately.
They are not equivalent. Pursuing romantic relationships in the direction of spiritual death is not okay. Just like I can't go holding hands with women who aren't my wife. Why? Because it leads to spiritual death and sorrow. The fruits are bitter and such actions please Satan.
If our leaders can't see this, then they need to explain what they DO see and make their case perfectly clear. If they don't make their case clear then it's gaslighting - which is unrighteous dominion. Trust me, I WANT to give them the benefit of the doubt here, but they gotta give me something to work with. I've defended the leadership many times, eh.
This hasn't shaken my testimony or faith. But it's seriously affecting my loyalty to the earthly institution of the church.
Edit: typo
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 1:59 pm
by NewEliza
Zathura wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 1:53 pm
NewEliza wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 1:51 pm
nightlight wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 10:10 am
The blood Atonment is worse then homosexuality....... change my mind.......
Lol you guys are always talking about how it's "true", but can't use your own words to shed its light.... if something is true...expound.
More likely than not you'll just say in your own head... "it's just something only the advanced Christian can comprehend" lol.
I promise....it's not.
I would stake my life on this...would you?
" Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear brecord of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso abelieveth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are bone.
37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and abecome as a blittle child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little achild, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a bsandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
------------------------------------
"Will you love your brothers and sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Deseret News, April 16, 1856
The time has been in Israel under the law of God, the celestial law, or that which pertains to the celestial law, for it is one of the laws of that kingdom where our Father dwells, that if a man was found guilty of adultery, he must have his blood shed, and that is near at hand.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, p. 219
"Any of you who understand the principles of eternity – if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death – would not be satisfied or rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain the salvation you desire. This is the way to love mankind.”
It shocks me you people believe this.....it literally makes me lose hope in us.
Pulling quotes does not constitute understanding of the doctrine. If you don’t understand the doctrine then that’s fine. I understand it well I think, and the only way to explain it is to tell you to do your own studying.
You can’t just pour this kind of information into someone’s head. If you care to know, do the work.
People can “do the work” and convince themselves of literally anything. That doesn’t make their beliefs true.
-See literally any cult as an example
That’s why God gave scripture. We have a bar by which to compare and measure all things. That bar proves Adam God theory, blood atonement, and many other things wrong.
So true. Which is why prophets like Brigham young were needed to explain scripture.
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 2:00 pm
by Doc
BYU...Babylon Yearning University???
I’m struggling to understand the big picture behind this. I’m sincerely praying for personal revelation on the matter. The thoughts that keep coming to my mind are twofold:
First, perhaps by having the strict rules as before, certain people were obedient on paper but their hearts were far from God. This could be a way to see if people taught correct principles would act accordingly. So in a way this could facilitate the separation of the wheat and tares.
Second, perhaps this is a necessary step in order to justify the coming judgements about to be levied upon us. Meaning, we have been failing to become a Zion people for 200 years. Now time has arrived when God will compel his people to become Zion-like. Blessed are they who choose to become such without the wrath and indignation of a just God...blessed are they who listen to his whisperings admist the influence of Babylon. So before the wrath is poured out, the cup must be full.
Again I’m seeking truth and revelation on the matter. I pray that we may all find it.
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 2:03 pm
by johnBob
Doc wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 2:00 pm
BYU...Babylon Yearning University???
I’m struggling to understand the big picture behind this. I’m sincerely praying for personal revelation on the matter. The thoughts that keep coming to my mind are twofold:
First, perhaps by having the strict rules as before, certain people were obedient on paper but their hearts were far from God. This could be a way to see if people taught correct principles would act accordingly. So in a way this could facilitate the separation of the wheat and tares.
Second, perhaps this is a necessary step in order to justify the coming judgements about to be levied upon us. Meaning, we have been failing to become a Zion people for 200 years. Now time has arrived when God will compel his people to become Zion-like. Blessed are they who choose to become such without the wrath and indignation of a just God...blessed are they who listen to his whisperings admist the influence of Babylon. So before the wrath is poured out, the cup must be full.
Again I’m seeking truth and revelation on the matter. I pray that we may all find it.
No, this is pure wickedness.
What do you think is going to happen at BYU now. The LGBTQ+ culture is all about getting others to join them. If you are at BYU now you are going to be recruited into the LGBTQ+ lifestyle.
This is sick, twisted and God will smite us for this.
Easiest way to verify this is for someone at BYU to download grindr
https://www.grindr.com/ and see how many people are looking for hook-ups at BYU. I bet you'll be shocked by how many of these "pure" LGBTQ+ individuals are simply hooking up. I'm positive that these LGBTQ+ who are "open" but "celibate"-yeah I can almost guarantee they are hooking up all over the place.
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 2:15 pm
by Mike Griffith
This is not apostasy. I think this falls under the Lord's counsel to be wise as serpents and innocent as lambs. This is a very wise, tactical move.
I think we need to keep in mind that gays constitute a very small minority in the U.S. as a whole, and an even smaller minority in the Church.
Gay students will still be subject to every rule that normal students are required to follow, and if they break those rules, they can be suspended or expelled.
I believe that the fear that this will lead to same-sex temple weddings is unfounded. There is no slippery slope here. The Church has been emphatic and clear that genuine temple marriage can only be between a man and a woman, and they are never going to abandon that truth.
Now, I could actually see a scenario, an unlikely but possible scenario, where 10 years from now the government would threaten the Church with prosecution if it did not allow same-sex temple weddings. And I would not be shocked if the Church, in order to survive, bent to that threat and allowed such sealings. But they would not be valid sealings. They would have no force in the next life. They would be repudiated by the Lord as false ceremonies that were done under coercion and threat of destruction. But allowing them would allow the Church to continue to function openly and allow temples to continue to operate. The number of gay temple weddings would most likely amount to a small fraction of temple weddings. Most temple patrons probably would never see a gay couple in the temple. Again, I think this scenario is unlikely, but possible.
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 2:21 pm
by skylight
UPON MY HOUSE IT WILL BEGIN:
Verily, verily I say unto you, darkness covers the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face. Behold, vengeance comes speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth: a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation. And as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, says the Lord. And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, says the Lord — first, among those among you, says the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, says the Lord. (D&C 112)
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 2:39 pm
by Believing Joseph
Doc wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 2:00 pm
BYU...Babylon Yearning University???
I’m struggling to understand the big picture behind this. I’m sincerely praying for personal revelation on the matter....
A lot of people on this forum seem to have a clear idea of what is going on. It looks like you really, really don't want to be one of them.
People that go on and on about "sincerely struggling" and "personal revelation" are usually just looking for a way to feel good about something that their rational mind is telling them not to feel good about.
When I look for the simplest explanation for the observed facts, here is what I see: the LDS church has repeatedly abandoned controversial teachings under pressure: polygamy, the racial doctrine, the opposition of birth control, etc. The first time (polygamy) took the most pressure, but once the Mormons' spine was broken, subsequent shifts became easier.
The doctrine about homosexuality is probably next. I think that this is a lot more reasonable than believing that our own generation is special and that God has a different plan for us than he had for those who tried to hold onto the old ways in the times of Wilford Woodruff and Spencer Kimball.
But sure, keep trying to rationalize it. If you want to find a way to feel like all is well in Zion, you probably will.
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 2:44 pm
by mike_rumble
"Now, I could actually see a scenario, an unlikely but possible scenario, where 10 years from now the government would threaten the Church with prosecution if it did not allow same-sex temple weddings. And I would not be shocked if the Church, in order to survive, bent to that threat and allowed such sealings. But they would not be valid sealings."
I really appreciate your posting, because it kind of illustrates how the Church membership might "move the goalposts" as things progress. First, homosexuals would not be accepted. Then, accepted but only as members. Then, accepted for some callings. Then, accepted as missionaries, but still not in the Temple. Then, maybe as Temple workers but not sealings. Then (as you state), okay to be sealed but not accepted as valid. Finally, the GA make it known that such sealings are valid, approved by God; this followed by excommunication of members who won't accept this final stand by the Church.
The Church at that point is broken. Its members are scattered and form many smaller new churches, each headed by a prophet claiming authority. This is exactly the path taken by certain other Christian groups over the years.
I believe the above will surely happen, unless there is someone at the top among the GA, willing to start speaking up against the"LGBT agenda". The only thing in question is how fast this will happen. One of the reasons I joined the Church was because I though it was a safe place for a follower of Christ to find a home. I thought it would be decades before the evils of the world would find its way inside. It seems to be moving along a lot faster than I thought.
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 2:47 pm
by Believing Joseph
Mike Griffith wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 2:15 pm
This is not apostasy. I think this falls under the Lord's counsel to be wise as serpents and innocent as lambs. This is a very wise, tactical move.
I think we need to keep in mind that gays constitute a very small minority in the U.S. as a whole, and an even smaller minority in the Church.
I think you are being too optimistic here. I don't know how old you are, but I am 23 and in my generation queers are well over 10% of the population, if you add all the varieties together.
If I made a list of the 20 boys who were my closest friends at various times while growing up, at least three of them are now LGBT. And two of those three were raised in the church.
When a kid turns gay, usually the entire family, especially the parents, changes belief systems in order to be supportive. So you have a very large fraction of active, temple-worthy Mormons agitating for LGBT equality, which is something that you can now do while still holding a temole recommend, thanks to the policy statement that came out of Salt Lake back in 2015.
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 2:49 pm
by Lizzy60
It was disclosed on MMB that this professor has a gay daughter and a female-to-male transgender son.
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 3:12 pm
by Doc
Believing Joseph wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 2:39 pm
Doc wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 2:00 pm
BYU...Babylon Yearning University???
I’m struggling to understand the big picture behind this. I’m sincerely praying for personal revelation on the matter....
A lot of people on this forum seem to have a clear idea of what is going on. It looks like you really, really don't want to be one of them.
People that go on and on about "sincerely struggling" and "personal revelation" are usually just looking for a way to feel good about something that their rational mind is telling them not to feel good about.
When I look for the simplest explanation for the observed facts, here is what I see: the LDS church has repeatedly abandoned controversial teachings under pressure: polygamy, the racial doctrine, the opposition of birth control, etc. The first time (polygamy) took the most pressure, but once the Mormons' spine was broken, subsequent shifts became easier.
The doctrine about homosexuality is probably next. I think that this is a lot more reasonable than believing that our own generation is special and that God has a different plan for us than he had for those who tried to hold onto the old ways in the times of Wilford Woodruff and Spencer Kimball.
But sure, keep trying to rationalize it. If you want to find a way to feel like all is well in Zion, you probably will.
I’m not trying to feel good or rationalize it, please do not put words in my mouth. My 8 year old can see the obvious sin in this matter. I am against homosexuality more fervently than you will ever begin to understand. I also acknowledge that the church is fallible, that apostles make mistakes. I’m trying to look at things from God’s perspective, not man’s. While I know I fall short, I beg God to help me see truth in all things.
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 3:25 pm
by Believing Joseph
Doc wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 3:12 pm
I’m not trying to feel good or rationalize it, please do not put words in my mouth. My 8 year old can see the obvious sin in this matter. I am against homosexuality more fervently than you will ever begin to understand. I also acknowledge that the church is fallible, that apostles make mistakes. I’m trying to look at things from God’s perspective, not man’s. While I know I fall short, I beg God to help me see truth in all things.
That's quite the word salad you've got there, though it seems you are tacitly accusing at least some of the other members of this forum of two things:
1) Not being as strong in our beliefs about sexual morality as your are, i.e. "
I am against homosexuality more firmly than you will ever begin to understand.
2) Looking at things from man's perspective rather than God's.
And you manage to spin all of this into a condemnation of our shallowness and a praise of your own deep faith even though you have articulated no substantial disagreement with the prevailing views here. So go ahead, explain why we are in the wrong and you are in the right.
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 3:32 pm
by XAC
Matchmaker wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 5:37 am
I decided a long time ago that I would sustain the Prophet and the Apostles and accept any new changes (inspiration or revelation) in Church policy that were instituted during the current Prophet's time as President of the Church. I'm not saying it has always been easy for me, but it has been simpler. I have a testimony that the Lord knows what is going on and is in charge of His Church, and I will follow him and accept these new changes as inspiration and revelation.
It’s always easier to just stop fighting
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 3:33 pm
by XAC
PressingForward wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 10:59 am
This is apostasy people. Are we not taught to “avoid even the appearance of evil”?
You can suck face with your homosexual object of attraction on campus at BYU, for the whole world to see, but a guy can’t have facial hair?
Wow, yes indeed there are blind sheep in the church, this is wrong people. I bet NO ONE will broach the subject today in Priesthood Meeting, because of conditioning to not question leadership. The Book of Mormon foretold of the apostasy in our day, we are seeing it happen before our very eyes, yet it is denied.
Apostasy......
Amen to that!
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 3:43 pm
by XAC
jmack wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 8:51 am
Lizzy60 wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 6:32 am
That's the same video produced by a professor at BYU. This is still only his opinion, and not an authoritative statement by President Worthen or the FP/Q12.
I wouldn't be surprised if the authorities are trying to work out how to allow BYU students homosexual dating activity (dancing, kissing, et al) without having to approve it church wide.
Not long ago I predicted that we would see gay couples in our chapels holding hands or giving each other a wee kiss, and we would not be allowed to ask them to refrain. That day is just about here. It's already here in some wards.
This. Is. Apostasy. This is NOT showing Christlike love to people who suffer, but it is allowing sin and celebrating sin.
We have been warned, and we've closed our ears and shut our eyes while the sodomites parade their depravity in our sacred buildings and in front of our innocent children.
Our meetings are welcome to all, Jesus admonished this to the leaders in 3rd nephi, even sinners. Children are exposed to this in the world and we teach them correct principles, and we do that at church too, when ward members are doing something we feel is wrong. I don't see that there is cause to throw someone out or confront them. Best to tell bishop and let him worry about it., if that happens.
All are welcome yo church, yes. However, all should not be members that are against doctrine. How can a person claim to be homosexual and a member? They can’t.
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 3:59 pm
by Doc
Believing Joseph wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 3:25 pm
Doc wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 3:12 pm
I’m not trying to feel good or rationalize it, please do not put words in my mouth. My 8 year old can see the obvious sin in this matter. I am against homosexuality more fervently than you will ever begin to understand. I also acknowledge that the church is fallible, that apostles make mistakes. I’m trying to look at things from God’s perspective, not man’s. While I know I fall short, I beg God to help me see truth in all things.
That's quite the word salad you've got there, though it seems you are tacitly accusing at least some of the other members of this forum of two things:
1) Not being as strong in our beliefs about sexual morality as your are, i.e. "
I am against homosexuality more firmly than you will ever begin to understand.
2) Looking at things from man's perspective rather than God's.
And you manage to spin all of this into a condemnation of our shallowness and a praise of your own deep faith even though you have articulated no substantial disagreement with the prevailing views here. So go ahead, explain why we are in the wrong and you are in the right.
Stop twisting words. You cannot understand how against something I am unless you know me personally...period. Don’t read into that any further, it ends there.
As for looking at things from God’s perspective, I’ll refer you to the 10th chapter of Moroni. I put myself above no one, but glory that my God can show me all things. You spoke negatively of personal revelation, but it truly is a gift of the spirit.
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 4:41 pm
by Believing Joseph
Doc wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 3:59 pm
Stop twisting words. You cannot understand how against something I am unless you know me personally...period. Don’t read into that any further, it ends there.
As for looking at things from God’s perspective, I’ll refer you to the 10th chapter of Moroni. I put myself above no one, but glory that my God can show me all things. You spoke negatively of personal revelation, but it truly is a gift of the spirit.
Once again, you didn't clearly articulate any point of disagreement with me or anybody else, but you still insist on being seen as more humble and more sincere than the rest of us.
And I have nothing against personal revelation
per se, I'm just bothered when people use it as a rhetorical device to avoid taking a stand on controversial issues.
Here is how the situation looks to me: Your first impression is that what the church is doing in regards to BYU is immoral, so now you are looking for a "personal revelation" that will excuse you from having to think about the ramifications of said first impression. Because most LDS set the bar for revelation so low, you're probably going to get a revelation whether it was sent by God or not.
The thing is, if you try hard enough to have a good feeling about something, you generally will.
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 4:44 pm
by Rick Grimes
Believing Joseph wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 4:41 pm
Doc wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 3:59 pm
Stop twisting words. You cannot understand how against something I am unless you know me personally...period. Don’t read into that any further, it ends there.
As for looking at things from God’s perspective, I’ll refer you to the 10th chapter of Moroni. I put myself above no one, but glory that my God can show me all things. You spoke negatively of personal revelation, but it truly is a gift of the spirit.
Once again, you didn't clearly articulate any point of disagreement with me or anybody else, but you still insist on being seen as more humble and more sincere than the reat of us.
And I have nothing against personal revelation
per se, I'm just bothered when people use it as a rhetorical device to avoid taking a stand on controversial issues.
Here is how the situation looks to me: Your first impression is that what the church is doing in regards to BYU is immoral, so now you are looking for a "personal revelation" that will excuse you from having to think about the ramifications of said first impression. Because most LDS set the bar for revelation so low, you're probably going to get a revelation whether it was sent by God or not.
The thing is, if you try hard enough to have a good feeling about something, you generally will.
There are some revelations from God, some from the devil, and some from ourselves. The hard part is knowing where that "revelation" is coming from, because many are easily decieved.
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 5:12 pm
by Doc
Believing Joseph wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 4:41 pm
Doc wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 3:59 pm
Stop twisting words. You cannot understand how against something I am unless you know me personally...period. Don’t read into that any further, it ends there.
As for looking at things from God’s perspective, I’ll refer you to the 10th chapter of Moroni. I put myself above no one, but glory that my God can show me all things. You spoke negatively of personal revelation, but it truly is a gift of the spirit.
Once again, you didn't clearly articulate any point of disagreement with me or anybody else, but you still insist on being seen as more humble and more sincere than the reat of us.
And I have nothing against personal revelation
per se, I'm just bothered when people use it as a rhetorical device to avoid taking a stand on controversial issues.
Here is how the situation looks to me: Your first impression is that what the church is doing in regards to BYU is immoral, so now you are looking for a "personal revelation" that will excuse you from having to think about the ramifications of said first impression. Because most LDS set the bar for revelation so low, you're probably going to get a revelation whether it was sent by God or not.
The thing is, if you try hard enough to have a good feeling about something, you generally will.
You are quick to judge and fast to generalize my friend. Obviously I disagree with what is going on, but I think it would be fair to give the church one chance to clarify their stance. Looking into our discussion, maybe you’re not understanding what answer I’m looking for. I’m not looking for if homosexuals holding hands is okay...I’m looking for why would God allow this perversion to happen on what I perceived was a campus of higher moral fortitude.
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 5:28 pm
by Believing Joseph
Doc wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 5:12 pm
Looking into our discussion, maybe you’re not understanding what answer I’m looking for. I’m not looking for if homosexuals holding hands is okay...I’m looking for why would God allow this perversion to happen on what I perceived was a campus of higher moral fortitude.
That makes more sense. From my perspective, it's not even something I would think to ask about - God allows people their agency, and people and institution with a reputation for moral fortitude have been yielding to temptation since the beginning of time. You will find that theme all over in the Bible and the Book of Mormon.
Now if you think that the Lord is guiding the people who made this decision and are trying to figure out why he would guide them to do it, then your feelings of consternation are much more understandable.
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 6:22 pm
by ori
No, the acts you speak of are not "authorized". They are simply not punished. They
are allowed, but
not "authorized".
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 6:41 pm
by DesertWonderer2
Matchmaker wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 5:37 am
I decided a long time ago that I would sustain the Prophet and the Apostles and accept any new changes (inspiration or revelation) in Church policy that were instituted during the current Prophet's time as President of the Church. I'm not saying it has always been easy for me, but it has been simpler. I have a testimony that the Lord knows what is going on and is in charge of His Church, and I will follow him and accept these new changes as inspiration and revelation.
A little about me before I make my comment: I’m as active as you can get—was FT missionary , sealed in the temple, active my whole life, multiple times EQ prez, multiple bishoprics, temple worker, etc...
SADLY, the church is being less and less lead by inspiration and more and more being lead by church lawyers and by capitulating to changing cultural norms
A perfect example of this is the change to the 2015 gays’ children policy—this change was NOT the Lord’s will. Another example is this appeasing of the gays with the the HC and Handbook eliminations of “homosexual behaviors” clauses. So gays can date and do anything a heterosexual couple could do while dating except actually have sex and still not violate the HC or moral laws of the gosple. Huh?!?!
Both of these examples are nothing more than compromise. Compromise by definition is a partial abandonment of a moral position. The church is compromising its moral position but why?
Inspiration? Ineptitude? Just trying anything to keep the millennial snowflakes from leaving the church? Bad advice from the lawyers and psychologists advising the leaders? God is fine with gay people engaging in homosexual behaviors? Perhaps its a test to see if we will obey no matter what? They just can’t take the heat from the haters and give in? Naively the leaders think that if they give in a little the haters and purveyors of evil will be satisfied?
For crying out loud, a few years ago we were excommunicating women who wanted the priesthood and now we are falling all over ourselves trying to tell them that they have its power and it seems that we are on trajectory to be ordaining women at this rate.
Look, they are good men doing their best, and they do have the priesthood authority. I have only been in the presence of 1 of the current living 15. The Spirit bore witness to me at that time that he was a true apostle in every sense of the word. Having said that, it is also clear that the current leadership is the worst that it has been in my lifetime. I’d rather not give a list of examples as it’s just too depressing. Maybe that is simply a reflection of the quality / faithfulness of the members? In which case, we have no one to blame but ourselves because of our own disobedience to God’s laws
One of the signs of the last days is the following: Rev 8:1
“And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.”
I honestly hate saying the following: Based on all that has transpired within the church over the last few yrs, it appears that we are in the silence in heavens period. Meaning the heavens / revelation has ceased to the church at large and the leaders are on their own for better or for worse
Re: Gay Dating and Open Homosexual Acts Allowed @ BYU
Posted: February 23rd, 2020, 6:45 pm
by DesertWonderer2
ori wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2020, 6:22 pm
No, the acts you speak of are not "authorized". They are simply not punished. They
are allowed, but
not "authorized".
So, just looking the other way?
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” ― Edmund Burke.
All of this just makes me so sad.