LDS Freedom Forum

“What do you say, lads?”

Continuing Luke’s poll regarding whether the church is currently in apostasy, I am curious as to those many, many “yes” responses—what then do you do? Or what has the spirit said you should do?

I’m genuinely curious—not trying to bait anyone here—and in earnest of that I will here state that I may even PM some of you if your written responses pique my interest, if you don’t mind.

My belief is that the Brighamite church is in apostasy, and has been ever since 1852 when polygamy was publicly accepted as a doctrine of the church.

My response to that has been to investigate the Restoration Branches, a small Josephite sect with no centralized leadership that separated from the RLDS in the Schism of 1984 and now has, as far as I can tell, the closest doctrines to what Joseph Smith actually taught. (I've written more about them on my blog.) I haven't yet joined them - I still want to find out more about how they approach missionary work, and whether they have the spiritual gifts they claim to have - but I think they're well worth investigating.

I'd go all Enoch.

I believe one must have a relationship with Jesus Christ, and learn how to receive answers to prayer. Without this, it doesn't really matter what one does, because it will always be trusting in the arm of flesh, either your own or someone else.

Having a relationship with Christ, then a person can ask what they should do. The answers will vary, even among those in the same family, or the same ward.

I wish I could have combined two answers.

I don't really know what to do while I wait for the One Mighty and Strong to set the Lord's house in order, so I keep going to church, as I don't believe there's anywhere else to go right now.

Matthias wrote: ↑February 22nd, 2020, 4:24 pm I wish I could have combined two answers.

I don't really know what to do while I wait for the One Mighty and Strong to set the Lord's house in order, so I keep going to church, as I don't believe there's anywhere else to go right now.

Quoted for truth

Other for me.
I've stopped worrying about avoiding being a tare just by staying in the good ship Zion. I can't figure out where it's being steered. So I'm embracing my disillusionment and finding truth where I can. I still love the Book of Mormon so completely leaving the church isn't an option for me.
I've recently come across the term "cafeteria Mormon." Someone who takes what works for them and leaves the rest. I suppose that's where I'm at. If I had to have a recommend interview today I don't think I'd pass. Not sure I sustain everyone anymore.
I have recently found spiritual nourishment in other faiths as well. I like the absolute focus on Jesus, even if it isn't wholly satisfying. Not sure where that leaves me.

Yahtzee wrote: ↑February 22nd, 2020, 6:03 pm Other for me.
I've stopped worrying about avoiding being a tare just by staying in the good ship Zion. I can't figure out where it's being steered. So I'm embracing my disillusionment and finding truth where I can. I still love the Book of Mormon so completely leaving the church isn't an option for me.
I've recently come across the term "cafeteria Mormon." Someone who takes what works for them and leaves the rest. I suppose that's where I'm at. If I had to have a recommend interview today I don't think I'd pass. Not sure I sustain everyone anymore.
I have recently found spiritual nourishment in other faiths as well. I like the absolute focus on Jesus, even if it isn't wholly satisfying. Not sure where that leaves me.

2 Nephi 32:3
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

Jeremiah 15:16
16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O Lord God of hosts.

Colossians 3:16
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

I have contemplated that exact question.

The Holy Spirit impressed upon me the question, "What do you think my Apostles did when I visited them no more?"

without taking a lot of time to reply,
I will just post this - these things that may help. ***

(please read this)
Avraham Gileadi
"Serving as Kings and Queens of the Gentiles"
http://www.josephandjudah.com/2016/05/s ... tiles.html

this is just a small part taken from his talk.

"There comes a time in life when you have to take stock and ask yourself whether you are, in fact, doing what you came to do in this world. We read scriptures that speak of heroes and heroines who valiantly served God and accomplished miracles that saved much of humanity. Maybe they didn't do so at first, but when they awoke to a sense of who they were, they set about serving God to their utmost without the need to look back. We too seldom come to an awakening of who we are all at once because we often don't see ourselves as anyone special, and because heaven withholds its gifts from us until we finally conform our lives to God's will. But because we have implanted in us his divine gene, we are no less capable of being recreated into something like a god-magnificent and powerful-able to transform the world as did those illustrious forebears.
Thus it is with the end-time kings and queens of the Gentiles whom Isaiah predicts are to restore the house of Israel:

"I will lift up my hand to the Gentiles, raise my ensign to the peoples, and they will bring your sons in their bosoms and carry your daughters on their shoulders. Kings will be your foster fathers and queens your nursing mothers" (Isaiah 49:22-23). It is as if this passage from Isaiah acts as a lifeline that Book of Mormon prophets hold on to, knowing that God made provision from the beginning for those end-time Gentile kings and queens to save their descendants from their lost and fallen and scattered state.
For that reason, Book of Mormon prophets refer back to this passage again and again, as if to inspire those same kings and queens of the Gentiles who read the Book of Mormon to wake up and perform their saving role to the house of Israel. That role, however, has little to do with non-Israelites but everything to do with Israel's birthright tribe of Ephraim whose ancestors assimilated into the Gentiles and became "identified with the Gentiles" (Doctrine & Covenants 109:60).

*** (list of things that most members do - that we need to change)
"Let us additionally assume that we aren't among those same Gentiles "in Zion" (2 Nephi 28:21, 24, 32) who "are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men" (2 Nephi 28:14)-those who don't search the scriptures and repent of their error (cf. Jacob 7:23; Alma 14:1; 17:2 33:2; 3 Nephi 10:14) but who are "at ease in Zion" and assume "all is well" (2 Nephi 28:24-25). That we aren't among those who "hearken unto the precepts of men," who disallow "the power of God" in their lives and void "the gift of the Holy Ghost" (2 Nephi 28:26)-those who say, "We have received, and we need no more" (2 Nephi 28:27, 29), who get "angry" when confronted with "the truth of God" found in the scriptures when it conflicts with their "precepts of men" (2 Nephi 28:28, 31). That we aren't among those who end up denying the Lord God when his "arm"-his servant in the Book of Isaiah-"is lengthened out all the day long" (2 Nephi 28:32)."

Yahtzee wrote: ↑February 22nd, 2020, 6:03 pm Other for me.
I've stopped worrying about avoiding being a tare just by staying in the good ship Zion. I can't figure out where it's being steered. So I'm embracing my disillusionment and finding truth where I can. I still love the Book of Mormon so completely leaving the church isn't an option for me.
I've recently come across the term "cafeteria Mormon." Someone who takes what works for them and leaves the rest. I suppose that's where I'm at. If I had to have a recommend interview today I don't think I'd pass. Not sure I sustain everyone anymore.
I have recently found spiritual nourishment in other faiths as well. I like the absolute focus on Jesus, even if it isn't wholly satisfying. Not sure where that leaves me.

I'm similar.
I'd pass the temple recommend questions as I do accept President Nelson as the only person who can speak for the church or receive revelation FOR THE CHURCH. He's the CEO, the captain of the good ship Zion, etc. Now if the question were less specific, I'd fail.
I'm also a cafeteria Mormon in that I don't think there is a lot terribly wrong, but what is considered doctrine definitely falls into the "Good, Better, Best" category - and I would suspect that much of what I consider Best would not align with the average member very well, and vice versa,
I also enjoy seeing what Heavenly Father has blessed his other children with in regards to inspired writings, including outside of Christianity. Not salvific, but still profound and beautiful and helpful truths.

the information here might help as well, as to what we can do.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53945&p=1002915#p1002915

I put other.

It depends on the situation. The claim of the church program is that it is home/family oriented and church supported. Do the things in your family that support you. Salvation isn't measured by church activity. Work something out with the Lord. You could go to just sacrament meeting. You could do sacrament at your home. You could have multiple "sabbaths" throughout the week as a time for being holy and having sacrament.

Some meetings are lackluster and you don't have to stay. Other times the Lord may want you to contribute to the meeting. It's all based on what the Lord tells you to do, and what you are asking him.

Matthias wrote: ↑February 22nd, 2020, 4:24 pm I wish I could have combined two answers.

I don't really know what to do while I wait for the One Mighty and Strong to set the Lord's house in order, so I keep going to church, as I don't believe there's anywhere else to go right now.

I second that, Matthias' position is the position of those who truly understand our situation. Keep going to Church, edify others, seek the face of Christ and develop a personal relationship with Him, wait for the end-time Servant. That's the way.

what does Isaiah say about our church meetings.

also interesting is that this is in Chapter 1

Isaiah 1

10 Hear the word of Jehovah,O leaders of Sodom;give heed to the law of our God,you people of Gomorrah!

To call Jehovah’s people and their leaders by the names Sodom and Gomorrah is to compare their moral degeneracy to that of those cities’ ancient inhabitants.
As the leaders of a people generally reflect the people themselves, and as the political and ecclesiastical leaders of Jehovah’s people parallel each other in the Book of Isaiah, their spiritual condition holds little hope for the rising generation.
When things reach that point, Jehovah’s people are fortunate indeed if Jehovah offers them a last warning.
For those who accept it, there may yet be a chance of deliverance; otherwise, their destruction is assured.

Hear the word of Jehovah . . . give heed to the law of our God.
Knowing that Jehovah does nothing unless he reveals his secret to his servants the prophets (Amos 3:7), he sends a warning voice before destroying his people. In the Book of Isaiah, that warning voice is Jehovah’s servant, of whom Isaiah is a type.
Pointing them to Jehovah’s “law” and “word—to the terms of his covenant—the servant directs them to the one thing that has the power to reverse their circumstances.
Replacing current aberrant religious practices with keeping Jehovah’s law and word remains his people’s only hope.

11 For what purpose are your abundant sacrifices to me? says Jehovah.I have had my fill of offerings of rams and fat of fatted beasts;
the blood of bulls and sheep and he-goatsI do not want.

While the worship of Jehovah goes on as if nothing has changed, its rituals have become a substitute for spirituality.
As when Samuel rebukes Saul: “Does Jehovah delight in burnt sacrifices and offerings as much as in heeding the voice of Jehovah? Listen up! To obey is better than sacrifice and to comply than the fat of rams” (1 Samuel 15:22).
The purpose of temple worship—and the measure of one’s devotion to God—isn’t to multiply ordinances.
It is to keep the terms of his covenant that assures Jehovah’s people the same privileges enjoyed by ancestors who walked and talked with him.

Offerings of rams and fat of fatted beasts; the blood of bulls and sheep and he-goats. The literalness of the animals—reflecting their ancient use as temple sacrifices—may seem to preclude their relevance to the end-time. Isaiah, however, uses ritually clean beasts as a metaphor of Jehovah’s people (Isaiah 34:1-7; 40:11; 53:7; 60:3-9). In other words, just as sacrificial animals anciently served as proxies for Jehovah’s people who transgressed—thereby forestalling God’s justice—so their end-time relevance applies to the temple-goers themselves: their proxy rituals are no longer acceptable.

12 When you come to see me,who requires you to trample my courts so?

The question asked at the beginning of verse 11 is answered at the beginning of verse 12:
Jehovah’s people attend the temple to see Jehovah. If they aren’t there for that purpose, then all else doesn’t count for much.
That reveals an appalling paradox: instead of going to see Jehovah, his people resemble the dumb animals that were anciently brought for sacrifice, which were unaware of their reason for being there. Instead of making an offering of their whole souls to God—as symbolized by the burnt offerings and shedding of the animals’ blood—his people trudge about the temple’s courts defiling it.

13 Bring no more worthless offerings; they are as a loathsome incense to me. As for convening meetings at the New Month and on the Sabbath,wickedness with the solemn gathering I cannot approve.

Although Jehovah had commanded the offering of incense (Exodus 30:1-8; 40:26-27)—symbolic of the prayers of the righteous ascending to his presence (Psalm 141:2; Revelation 8:3-4)—the idea of a “loathsome incense” likens it to a nauseating odor.
Their sacrifices have become “worthless” because they aren’t backed up by personal righteousness (Isaiah 61:8). Even their religious meetings and assemblies Jehovah can’t approve because those who attend them are encumbered with offenses. Their wickedness—their unrepented sins and iniquities—turns their services into solemn mockery.

14 Your monthly and regular meetings my soul detests.They have become a burden on me;I am weary of putting up with them.

As Jehovah attaches importance to Sabbath and monthly meetings elsewhere (Isaiah 56:2, 6; 58:13; 66:23), it isn’t that they of themselves are unacceptable. It is that his people measure their righteousness before God in terms of their attendance at them, not by their personal integrity.
Word links show what kinds of things burden and weary Jehovah, but also that by repenting of evil his people may become clean: “You have burdened me with your sins, wearied me with your iniquities. But it is I myself, and for my own sake, who blot out your offenses, remembering your sins no more” (Isaiah 43:24-25).

going to church IS NOT what's going to save you my brothers and sisters.
There are thousands of Christians that don't go to church, but know, and love, and serve Jesus Christ; and have a relationship with Him.
ANYONE can go to church !

I wrote this years ago.

YOU ARE NOT SAVED JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE A MEMBER
AND YOU GO TO CHURCH.
Those who think they are righteous and are saved just by
attending their church meetings and even the temple,
church callings, etc. and think they've done their spiritual duty
for the week, will be cast out and burned with the tares.

And those who humble themselves daily, with a
Broken Heart and Contrite Spirit, on their knees repenting of their sins,
continually seeking the Lords face in prayer, asking the
Lord for his spirit to be with them always, to guide there lives,
to enlighten their minds and teach them all things of his gospel,
Taking upon you the name of Christ.
Servants of Christ - doing the things He (Christ) did,
loving, teaching, helping and forgiving others.
This is the gospel of Jesus Christ, not just attending church.
Spiritually is not an outwardly thing you do once a week
by going to church.

Anyone can go to church

It's one thing to say "I Love You"
but it's entirely another to demonstrate that
love, showing continually, unconditionally,
in many ways your unwavering love for that person.

It's one thing going to church, but it's entirely another
thing to accept and to live The Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Is going to church in itself spirituality ? no.
The very act of going to church won't save anyone.
Anyone can go to church.
I guarantee you that church attendance records
are not kept in heaven.
Just like I believe that just because you get married in the temple
doesn't mean you will be together forever, if you have a terrible
relationship with your spouse that has flustered and died away,
but because they got married in the temple, do you really
think they would be together or should be together ? I don't.

Too many members go to church like they go to the gym.
They go, they've done their (spiritual) duty
for the week and feel good about it.
Going to church doesn't make you closer to God. (unless)
it changes your life ! And it shows in your life by your fruits.
Again - going to church is like going to college.
You can go for years, and learn a lot but that won't get you
anywhere with your career unless you take what you've learned
and go out and apply it, in our lives and in the lives of others.
For many - The Gospel of Jesus Christ is like - a man was given an
expensive car to go on an extravagant vacation to a beautiful place,
but he didn't want to work, to get money for gas so he could go there.
Are you working to put gas in your car ? Not just by going to church,
but doing what He (Christ) did.

"Therefore, what manner of men ought ye to be?
Verily I say unto you, even as I am."
3 Nephi 27:27

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

"so faith without works is dead"
"I will shew thee my faith by my works"
James 2

Jesus said
"But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant."

Mosiah Chapter 2:17
"And behold, I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom;
that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of
your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God."

Matthew 25:40

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren,
ye have done it unto me.

It's there, Christ is at the door but we have to
open the door and fully accept him and do the things he did.
He will be in us, and work through us to do his work.

My answer is live the gospel as faithfully as I can in my own life, study the scriptures, and pray for further light and knowledge to know what to do. That’s all I’ve got for now.

Other.

Like some above said, Follow Christ and do what he leads you to do. It may offend or tick off some people, but being true to Christ is the number one thing. It's even more important than membership on the Good Ship Zion (i.e. the Church organization).

Do what I have always done.......SEEK TRUTH. It matters not if the principles be true if they are rooted in lies and deception. An evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

Who is "WE" exactly?

Church membership due to evil all around tugging and prodding at the saints are allowing this evil to steer them off course, to do things their way and turning their backs on righteousness. Just as we learn the gospel little by little, here a little and there a little, precept upon precept, we begin to remove ourselves from the good ship Zion. We begin to judge and make accusations against church leadership. We begin to walk with high heads and a proud look. We actually vote in political candidtes that will strip away our God given rights because we might not like freedom any longer, we have gove to the dark side. And the dark side can no longer see the good in our church leadership, and this is what happens:

Alma 24:30
30 And thus we can plainly discern, that after a people have been once enlightened by the Spirit of God, and have had great knowledge of things pertaining to righteousness, and then have fallen away into sin and transgression, they become more hardened, and thus their state becomes worse than though they had never known these things.

2 Nephi 31:14
14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

2 Peter 2:20–21
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

It isn't the fifteen in a state of apostasy, it is the lay members falling off the path and wandering down forbidden paths. You know, Lehi's dream?

thestock wrote: ↑February 25th, 2020, 1:28 pm Do what I have always done.......SEEK TRUTH. It matters not if the principles be true if they are rooted in lies and deception. An evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

Jeremiah 15:16
16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O Lord God of hosts.

I go to church.
But I'm spiritually nourished elsewhere