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Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 19th, 2020, 4:17 pm
by Lizzy60
EmmaLee wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 4:03 pm
Yay, BYU is woke now. But don't you dare have facial hair on the campus of the Lord's university, you sinner.
And be sure you check your protein shakes and vitamin supplements for green tea listed in the ingredients, you sinner.
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 19th, 2020, 4:20 pm
by EmmaLee
Lizzy60 wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 4:15 pm
From BYU Twitter account this afternoon:
"With the recently released general handbook of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Church Educational System has updated the CES Honor Code to be in alignment with the doctrine and policies of the Church."
Meaning... what, exactly? That it's fine if two men kiss on the mouth at church like the women in the photo above? I see married couples give each other a kiss frequently at church, like when one goes off to PH and his wife goes to RS or whatever. So can we now expect to see two men giving each other a smooch at church in like manner and that's a-okay?
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 19th, 2020, 4:21 pm
by Art Vandelay
One of the qualities I love about those who held to the rod in Lehi's dream is that they didn't pay any attention to those in that strange building who mocked them. They "heeded them not". I try not to pay too much attention to those who mock the commandments of God. They have their agency and I have mine.
"For as many as heeded them, had fallen away."
"...choose you this day whom ye will serve; ...as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."
There's no doubt that the floodgates of choice are open.
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 19th, 2020, 4:33 pm
by Lizzy60
Art Vandelay wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 4:21 pm
One of the qualities I love about those who held to the rod in Lehi's dream is that they didn't pay any attention to those in that strange building who mocked them. They "heeded them not". I try not to pay too much attention to those who mock the commandments of God. They have their agency and I have mine.
"For as many as heeded them, had fallen away."
"...choose you this day whom ye will serve; ...as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."
There's no doubt that the floodgates of choice are open.
I just wasn't prepared for the people in the strange building mocking those holding onto the rod would be those who are writing the Holy Handbook and the BYU Honor Code.
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 19th, 2020, 4:33 pm
by Chip
Lizzy60 wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 4:15 pm
From BYU Twitter account this afternoon:
"With the recently released general handbook of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Church Educational System has updated the CES Honor Code to be in alignment with the doctrine and policies of the Church."
Well, we are to suppose, then, that homosexuality is now accepted as part of church doctrine. Or, is it just church policy? Oh, it's so confusing! Is someone going to clarify this for us? Will one of the apostles speak up and offer some clarification here? This is creating a vacuum of accountability.
The thing is, this is B.S. They know it's B.S. and we know it's B.S. It's going to be B.S. and meaninglessness going forward, ever forward, until Jesus drops the hammer at God's command.
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 19th, 2020, 4:49 pm
by Serragon
Lizzy60 wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 4:33 pm
Art Vandelay wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 4:21 pm
One of the qualities I love about those who held to the rod in Lehi's dream is that they didn't pay any attention to those in that strange building who mocked them. They "heeded them not". I try not to pay too much attention to those who mock the commandments of God. They have their agency and I have mine.
"For as many as heeded them, had fallen away."
"...choose you this day whom ye will serve; ...as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."
There's no doubt that the floodgates of choice are open.
I just wasn't prepared for the people in the strange building mocking those holding onto the rod would be those who are writing the Holy Handbook and the BYU Honor Code.
On the contrary, choice is actually being restricted. When we are no longer able to discern the difference between the world and the church, our ability to choose has been restricted.
You speak of Lehi's vision. It is not possible to ignore the people in the building when the iron rod is being rerouted to the spacious building by our leaders.
Homosexuality is now considered the equivalent of heterosexuality except for this pesky little commandment we don't understand telling us that homosexuals can't be married to each other. But don't worry, after some time passes this commandment will too be lifted when the people are ready.
The current teaching of the church is that homosexual sex is not chaste ONLY because the participants cannot be married. Otherwise it is the same. This teaching is obviously a predecessor to the coming change of honoring civil homosexual marriages.
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 19th, 2020, 4:53 pm
by Chip
Serragon wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 4:49 pm
...You speak of Lehi's vision. It is not possible to ignore the people in the building when the iron rod is being rerouted to the spacious building by our leaders...
POW!!!!!!
After they throw away the religion, all they'll have is a business. People aren't going to be sufficiently inspired to be a part of it without a religion containing some absolutes.
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 19th, 2020, 5:11 pm
by Lizzy60
Omigosh!! It looks like BYU is trying to walk it back a bit. They are now saying there was some miscommunication and although the section on homosexuality has been removed from the written code, the principles still remain the same.
Say what? What was that tweet about regarding aligning with the new handbook? Did you, all of a sudden, notice that at least two local newspapers were reporting this, and numerous posts on FB and tweets were celebrating the fact that real people, IN THE HONOR CODE OFFICE, had told students all afternoon that gay friends could now date and kiss and such?
Who is running that place?
[Have Oaks and Bednar been making frantic phone calls?]
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 19th, 2020, 5:52 pm
by PressingForward
WOW......
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 19th, 2020, 6:02 pm
by Robin Hood
I've just read the article about the changes to the BYU Honour Code in the Deseret News.
As we say here... I'm gobsmacked!
It's a pity the PSR's didn't anticipate this.... or did they?
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 19th, 2020, 6:16 pm
by johnBob
As predicted several years ago. But don't you worry the church will never accept homosexual marriages....
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 19th, 2020, 6:18 pm
by johnBob
Robin Hood wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 6:02 pm
I've just read the article about the changes to the BYU Honour Code in the Deseret News.
As we say here... I'm gobsmacked!
It's a pity the PSR's didn't anticipate this.... or did they?
The only thing that stops this is a revolt by those who hold to the iron rod.
Otherwise homosexual marriages in the Church and then the temple there we come!
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 19th, 2020, 6:23 pm
by gkearney
It might be worth seeing my post in the church in 2050 thread.
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 19th, 2020, 6:23 pm
by Lizzy60
johnBob wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 6:18 pm
Robin Hood wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 6:02 pm
I've just read the article about the changes to the BYU Honour Code in the Deseret News.
As we say here... I'm gobsmacked!
It's a pity the PSR's didn't anticipate this.... or did they?
The only thing that stops this is a revolt by those who hold to the iron rod.
Otherwise homosexual marriages in the Church and then the temple there we come!
"Why have you polluted the Holy Church of God?"
According to ancient prophets who saw our day, it won't be stopped. Some will continue to hold to the iron rod, but the great and spacious building is filled with far more people than the "few" who are the true followers of Christ, and who will be found righteous at His Second Coming.
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 19th, 2020, 6:29 pm
by johnBob
Lizzy60 wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 6:23 pm
johnBob wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 6:18 pm
Robin Hood wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 6:02 pm
I've just read the article about the changes to the BYU Honour Code in the Deseret News.
As we say here... I'm gobsmacked!
It's a pity the PSR's didn't anticipate this.... or did they?
The only thing that stops this is a revolt by those who hold to the iron rod.
Otherwise homosexual marriages in the Church and then the temple there we come!
"Why have you polluted the Holy Church of God?"
According to ancient prophets who saw our day, it won't be stopped. Some will continue to hold to the iron rod, but the great and spacious building is filled with far more people than the "few" who are the true followers of Christ, and who will be found righteous at His Second Coming.
Coronovirus will wipe out the wicked.
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 19th, 2020, 6:38 pm
by johnBob
Lizzy60 wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 6:23 pm
johnBob wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 6:18 pm
Robin Hood wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 6:02 pm
I've just read the article about the changes to the BYU Honour Code in the Deseret News.
As we say here... I'm gobsmacked!
It's a pity the PSR's didn't anticipate this.... or did they?
The only thing that stops this is a revolt by those who hold to the iron rod.
Otherwise homosexual marriages in the Church and then the temple there we come!
"Why have you polluted the Holy Church of God?"
According to ancient prophets who saw our day, it won't be stopped. Some will continue to hold to the iron rod, but the great and spacious building is filled with far more people than the "few" who are the true followers of Christ, and who will be found righteous at His Second Coming.
Unfortunately you are correct because the righteous are few in number, almost all have turned away.
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 19th, 2020, 6:40 pm
by Lizzy60
johnBob wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 6:29 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 6:23 pm
johnBob wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 6:18 pm
Robin Hood wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 6:02 pm
I've just read the article about the changes to the BYU Honour Code in the Deseret News.
As we say here... I'm gobsmacked!
It's a pity the PSR's didn't anticipate this.... or did they?
The only thing that stops this is a revolt by those who hold to the iron rod.
Otherwise homosexual marriages in the Church and then the temple there we come!
"Why have you polluted the Holy Church of God?"
According to ancient prophets who saw our day, it won't be stopped. Some will continue to hold to the iron rod, but the great and spacious building is filled with far more people than the "few" who are the true followers of Christ, and who will be found righteous at His Second Coming.
Coronovirus will wipe out the wicked.
Along with earthquakes, volcano eruptions, hailstorms, floods, wars, and plagues and pestilence in addition to those already smiting the Earth. When the Lord tells Mother Earth to prepare the way for Him, she will be directed in exactly what to do.
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 19th, 2020, 6:48 pm
by Serragon
johnBob wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 6:18 pm
Robin Hood wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 6:02 pm
I've just read the article about the changes to the BYU Honour Code in the Deseret News.
As we say here... I'm gobsmacked!
It's a pity the PSR's didn't anticipate this.... or did they?
The only thing that stops this is a revolt by those who hold to the iron rod.
Otherwise homosexual marriages in the Church and then the temple there we come!
Understand where we are now as a church. It is absolutely abhorrent.
We have gone from the idea that homosexuality itself was an abomination to homosexuality is good except for actual sex, and that only because there is a commandment against marriage.
We used to counsel people who were attracted to people of the same sex to overcome their natural man and put that emotion in its proper place. We now encourage people to completely indulge that natural man and feel justified in their decadence.
Imagine a man finds that he is attracted to a married woman. We would not condemn him for that attraction, but would definitely counsel him to put it in its proper place and not nurture it in any way. Now imagine we treated that attraction the same we do SSA. Can you imagine telling this man that it is fine to nurture that attraction and pursue that relationship as long as they don't sleep together? They can kiss, hold hands, date, but no sex. Because the only thing making it sinful is the fact that you are already married.
Play this scenario out for any sin. This is what happens when you try and make a deal with the world for PR purposes. The leaders thought they were so clever a few years ago when they changed their position on homosexuality to being sinful because of non-married sex. They thought it was a way to stand firm on homosexuality while not taking the PR hit that would come from continuing to call homosexuality itself a sin.
But the fruit of this cleverness has come full circle. The leadership has backed themselves into a corner as their current position is indefensible. If there is nothing inherently immoral about homosexuality, then you cannot keep people from practicing it without being a tyrant. And if there is nothing wrong with having a homosexual relationship in the eyes of God, then you cannot keep people from being married or sealed to each other. What possible reason would God have for preventing it if the relationship is moral and normal?
I don't really care anymore whether the church caves on marriage or sealings. They have already caved on the most important point. Allowing sealings would just be the final adulterated sacrament performed in this ongoing pillaging of Christ's church.
When the key holders and gate keepers embrace that which has been sin from the beginning of time, it is too late to worry about the downstream ordinances. Once the pollutants are in the water, it is already tainted.
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 19th, 2020, 7:36 pm
by johnBob
Serragon wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 6:48 pm
johnBob wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 6:18 pm
Robin Hood wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 6:02 pm
I've just read the article about the changes to the BYU Honour Code in the Deseret News.
As we say here... I'm gobsmacked!
It's a pity the PSR's didn't anticipate this.... or did they?
The only thing that stops this is a revolt by those who hold to the iron rod.
Otherwise homosexual marriages in the Church and then the temple there we come!
Understand where we are now as a church. It is absolutely abhorrent.
We have gone from the idea that homosexuality itself was an abomination to homosexuality is good except for actual sex, and that only because there is a commandment against marriage.
We used to counsel people who were attracted to people of the same sex to overcome their natural man and put that emotion in its proper place. We now encourage people to completely indulge that natural man and feel justified in their decadence.
Imagine a man finds that he is attracted to a married woman. We would not condemn him for that attraction, but would definitely counsel him to put it in its proper place and not nurture it in any way. Now imagine we treated that attraction the same we do SSA. Can you imagine telling this man that it is fine to nurture that attraction and pursue that relationship as long as they don't sleep together? They can kiss, hold hands, date, but no sex. Because the only thing making it sinful is the fact that you are already married.
Play this scenario out for any sin. This is what happens when you try and make a deal with the world for PR purposes. The leaders thought they were so clever a few years ago when they changed their position on homosexuality to being sinful because of non-married sex. They thought it was a way to stand firm on homosexuality while not taking the PR hit that would come from continuing to call homosexuality itself a sin.
But the fruit of this cleverness has come full circle. The leadership has backed themselves into a corner as their current position is indefensible. If there is nothing inherently immoral about homosexuality, then you cannot keep people from practicing it without being a tyrant. And if there is nothing wrong with having a homosexual relationship in the eyes of God, then you cannot keep people from being married or sealed to each other. What possible reason would God have for preventing it if the relationship is moral and normal?
I don't really care anymore whether the church caves on marriage or sealings. They have already caved on the most important point. Allowing sealings would just be the final adulterated sacrament performed in this ongoing pillaging of Christ's church.
When the key holders and gate keepers embrace that which has been sin from the beginning of time, it is too late to worry about the downstream ordinances. Once the pollutants are in the water, it is already tainted.
Yes it is abhorrent . . .just remember the "law of Chastity' means as long as there is not "penetration' you haven't broken it!!
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 20th, 2020, 1:24 am
by Yahtzee
Serragon wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 6:48 pm
johnBob wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 6:18 pm
Robin Hood wrote: ↑February 19th, 2020, 6:02 pm
I've just read the article about the changes to the BYU Honour Code in the Deseret News.
As we say here... I'm gobsmacked!
It's a pity the PSR's didn't anticipate this.... or did they?
The only thing that stops this is a revolt by those who hold to the iron rod.
Otherwise homosexual marriages in the Church and then the temple there we come!
Understand where we are now as a church. It is absolutely abhorrent.
We have gone from the idea that homosexuality itself was an abomination to homosexuality is good except for actual sex, and that only because there is a commandment against marriage.
We used to counsel people who were attracted to people of the same sex to overcome their natural man and put that emotion in its proper place. We now encourage people to completely indulge that natural man and feel justified in their decadence.
Imagine a man finds that he is attracted to a married woman. We would not condemn him for that attraction, but would definitely counsel him to put it in its proper place and not nurture it in any way. Now imagine we treated that attraction the same we do SSA. Can you imagine telling this man that it is fine to nurture that attraction and pursue that relationship as long as they don't sleep together? They can kiss, hold hands, date, but no sex. Because the only thing making it sinful is the fact that you are already married.
Play this scenario out for any sin. This is what happens when you try and make a deal with the world for PR purposes. The leaders thought they were so clever a few years ago when they changed their position on homosexuality to being sinful because of non-married sex. They thought it was a way to stand firm on homosexuality while not taking the PR hit that would come from continuing to call homosexuality itself a sin.
But the fruit of this cleverness has come full circle. The leadership has backed themselves into a corner as their current position is indefensible. If there is nothing inherently immoral about homosexuality, then you cannot keep people from practicing it without being a tyrant. And if there is nothing wrong with having a homosexual relationship in the eyes of God, then you cannot keep people from being married or sealed to each other. What possible reason would God have for preventing it if the relationship is moral and normal?
I don't really care anymore whether the church caves on marriage or sealings. They have already caved on the most important point. Allowing sealings would just be the final adulterated sacrament performed in this ongoing pillaging of Christ's church.
When the key holders and gate keepers embrace that which has been sin from the beginning of time, it is too late to worry about the downstream ordinances. Once the pollutants are in the water, it is already tainted.
Reminds me of a scripture many of us just read, "Wo unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope;" 2 Nephi 15:18
Little vain cords easily and quickly become thick enough to choke and destroy us.
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 20th, 2020, 6:08 am
by Matchmaker
President Kimball said specifically that necking and petting are sins outside of marriage because they are progressive behaviors that will eventually get out of hand, and he was correct. They stimulate sexual feelings that utimately lead to sexual behavior that is only acceptable within the bounds of marriage.
What do the powers that be think is going to happen to these young LDS students who attend these gay makeout parties? No sex. No marriage. Just kissing all the time?
I must keep telling myself, "This is just a test. Stay in the boat. Sustain the General Authorities of the Church. Don't criticize the leaders of the Church. Christ is at the helm of his Church. Trust that the leaders lead by inspiration. Stay in the boat!"
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 20th, 2020, 7:44 am
by oldguy
We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things
.The church is moving farther and farther away from the 13th Article of Faith. Do we need to decide for ourselves what is virtuous, lovely, of good report, or praiseworthy and seek after those things no matter the course the church and the world takes?
Re: Losing the culture war at BYU
Posted: February 20th, 2020, 9:09 am
by thestock
oldguy wrote: ↑February 20th, 2020, 7:44 am
Do we need to decide for ourselves what is virtuous, lovely, of good report, or praiseworthy and seek after those things no matter the course the church and the world takes?
YES! Jeez why is this so hard to figure out.