LDS Freedom Forum

I cannot think of any verse in the scriptures of anyone setting a goal of a number of something, like number of baptisms, number of people brought to a meeting, number of days/hours preaching, etc. Not in the Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, or even Doctrine and Covenants. Can you think of one?

Did Jesus or the apostles have baptism goals? Did any of the Nephites set goals of the number of people they preached to? Did the Lord tell Joseph Smith to set growth goals? Perhaps there is something, but I can't find anything.

This is a legitimate request. I think I am right on this, but I just wanted to ask you all if you could think of any.

I think number goals in the church are actually counterproductive. I think it creates emotional distances between people. People can sense when they are a number. I don't think it is necessary to have number goals in order to spread the gospel or to do the Lord's work. And as support of this idea, I can't think of any time in the scriptures where it was ever done. I think it's a modern invention of managerial control. It systematizes the gospel, and replaces real spiritual growth, connection, and concern for others with statistical goals and causing impersonal interactions. Leaders are rewarded and promoted based on number goals and not on real connection and inspiration. To be a better member, means to be better at number goals. I think that's a problem and a stumbling block to the growth of the church.

If I am right, no other group of faithful believer set number goals, and there was growth, sometimes massive. So then why do we do it now?

Numbers are important because numbers are people. But when saints begain to look at people just as numbers....we make way for sin

But...the more the merrier.

15 And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father!

16 And now, if your joy will be great with one soul that you have brought unto me into the kingdom of my Father, how great will be your joy if you should bring many souls unto me!

Trucker wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 11:12 am I cannot think of any verse in the scriptures of anyone setting a goal of a number of something, like number of baptisms, number of people brought to a meeting, number of days/hours preaching, etc. Not in the Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, or even Doctrine and Covenants. Can you think of one?

Did Jesus or the apostles have baptism goals? Did any of the Nephites set goals of the number of people they preached to? Did the Lord tell Joseph Smith to set growth goals? Perhaps there is something, but I can't find anything.

This is a legitimate request. I think I am right on this, but I just wanted to ask you all if you could think of any.

I think number goals in the church are actually counterproductive. I think it creates emotional distances between people. People can sense when they are a number. I don't think it is necessary to have number goals in order to spread the gospel or to do the Lord's work. And as support of this idea, I can't think of any time in the scriptures where it was ever done. I think it's a modern invention of managerial control. It systematizes the gospel, and replaces real spiritual growth, connection, and concern for others with statistical goals and causing impersonal interactions. Leaders are rewarded and promoted based on number goals and not on real connection and inspiration. To be a better member, means to be better at number goals. I think that's a problem and a stumbling block to the growth of the church.

If I am right, no other group of faithful believer set number goals, and there was growth, sometimes massive. So then why do we do it now?

so true.
there's probably a good reason you can't find any references in our scriptures about this.
Kinda reminds me of the same kind of mentality that the church and members seem to have about how many times you go to church,
thinking that that is what's going to save them.
I mean the very act of going to church won't save anyone.
Anyone can go to church.
I don't think that church attendance records are kept in heaven.

15 And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father!

16 And now, if your joy will be great with one soul that you have brought unto me into the kingdom of my Father, how great will be your joy if you should bring many souls unto me!

Instead of number goals we should focus on true conversion and complete repentance. Otherwise investigators aren’t being taught to seek the other half of their baptism, the baptism of spirit. We are putting members in a false sense of security, thinking their membership in the church and church activity has saved them.

You won't be able to find anything like that in the Scriptures because as we all know... it isn't there.

However if you found some ancient records from the Pharisees, you might find something like it. Box ticking and all...

Better yet why doesn’t someone find a scripture that proves that God is real or proves anything that we believe. We have so much doctrine and and goal setting that is not in the scriptures because.......

25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Trucker wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 11:12 am I cannot think of any verse in the scriptures of anyone setting a goal of a number of something, like number of baptisms, number of people brought to a meeting, number of days/hours preaching, etc. Not in the Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, or even Doctrine and Covenants. Can you think of one?

Did Jesus or the apostles have baptism goals? Did any of the Nephites set goals of the number of people they preached to? Did the Lord tell Joseph Smith to set growth goals? Perhaps there is something, but I can't find anything.

This is a legitimate request. I think I am right on this, but I just wanted to ask you all if you could think of any.

I think number goals in the church are actually counterproductive. I think it creates emotional distances between people. People can sense when they are a number. I don't think it is necessary to have number goals in order to spread the gospel or to do the Lord's work. And as support of this idea, I can't think of any time in the scriptures where it was ever done. I think it's a modern invention of managerial control. It systematizes the gospel, and replaces real spiritual growth, connection, and concern for others with statistical goals and causing impersonal interactions. Leaders are rewarded and promoted based on number goals and not on real connection and inspiration. To be a better member, means to be better at number goals. I think that's a problem and a stumbling block to the growth of the church.

If I am right, no other group of faithful believer set number goals, and there was growth, sometimes massive. So then why do we do it now?

The problem comes from above. I don't mean heaven, I mean higher leadership. When I was a bishop the stake used to ask me for my ward goals every year. And every year I would object for all the right reasons. And the SP would agree that it was pretty pointless but that he was being leaned on by the area presidency to produce goals for the stake, and was simply passing it down.
No doubt the area presidency were under similar pressure.
The whole exercise was a complete nonsense because we just used to make them up on the spot out of thin air, and never referred to them again.

I guess God commanded Noah to bring 2 or 7 of each animal. That's not the same but as close as I could find.

Luke wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 12:15 pm You won't be able to find anything like that in the Scriptures because as we all know... it isn't there.

However if you found some ancient records from the Pharisees, you might find something like it. Box ticking and all...

Where's box ticking for the Pharisees?

It seems their problem was selective box ticking.

This is as close as I could get. Abraham had to find 10 souls:

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.