LDS Freedom Forum

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 3:57 pm It is my responsibility to pay tithes and offerings to the Church. It is their responsibility to spend them righteously. I am going to worry about my part of the Lord's work, and not give up. They are accountable for theirs. I do not claim to have revelation on what they should be doing other than what is in the scriptures. I do not claim to know how or when materials including cash is to be gathered for seen and unforeseen events, like the massive building of the New Jerusalem. Therefore, I will be concerned with my stewardship, and trust in the Lord. I am feeling great about that choice and decision.
That feeling of peace and joy will never leave me. What more can I say. Thank you Lord for precious perspective.

I agree with this. Additionally, I look for ways I can serve folks in the community without trumpeting it. I don't believe in steadying the ark. Thank you, Kirtland.

I am accountable for paying my tithes and offerings, not how they are distributed. Those who are responsible for the distribution will be accountable for their actions, right or wrong, from the perfect judge. I also listen to the spirit and help those directly when prompted. I too don't believe in steadying the ark.

Has it ever occurred to any of the church's critics that the poor and needy who are fed and clothed by these funds may very well end up being you and your family when the economy eventually collapses?

I would suggest you all get your house in order before dictating both what is going on and how the Lord's house should be ordered. You've got no right.

Phantom wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 9:24 am I would suggest you all get your house in order before dictating both what is going on and how the Lord's house should be ordered. You've got no right.

This is just an attempt to shame members into not voicing any concerns, but the members supposedly must be perfect before they can raise any concern. Yet in the church, as said by the Lord himself in the DC multiple times, everything should be done by common consent:

DC 28:13 For all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith.

DC 26:2 2 And all things shall be done by common consent in the church, by much prayer and faith, for all things you shall receive by faith. Amen.

DC 104:71 And there shall not any part of it be used, or taken out of the treasury, only by the voice and common consent of the order.
72 And this shall be the voice and common consent of the order—that any man among you say to the treasurer: I have need of this to help me in my stewardship

How can members even give their consent when things are hidden from them? And what makes current church leaders above the Lord's law, the instruction given directly form him? In fact, are we derelict in our duty by not standing up for following the Lord's pattern?

When I was a TV production student at BYU in 1980, the Y 'news' crew in which I served as a 'grunt', interviewed Elder Vaughn Featherstone at the Church Office Building. For some reason, Elder Featherstone engaged me in a one-on-one conversation while some of the other crew were setting up. He was curious about me as an 'older' student, single parent attending college.

We talked about tithing. Despite being very poor and extraordinarily stressed as a full-time mom & BYU student, and part-time employee at various odd jobs, I always paid a full tithe. As a family, my sons & I were never without what we needed to sustain ourselves and for me to continue my studies. I received virtually no support from The Church. My ongoing support came directly from The Lord through many ways I knew to be 'miraculous'.

During that conversation, Brother Featherstone told me that only about 27% of the members of The Church paid tithing. I was astounded! At that time, there were less than 5,000,000 members. A lot has changed over the years for me and for The Church.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 0?lang=eng

However, I learned some hard lessons about 'money' from my impoverished student years:

Money is illusory

Money is like water; If it isn't contained in some fashion that makes it accessible and useful, it will disappear along the paths of least resistance.

Never confuse "what you want" with "what you need".

Make do with what you have. (My husband claims he decided to marry me because I was able to make the best soup in the world from an empty refrigerator, and compliment it with full-grain homemade bread.)

I don't attend church, donate tithes & offerings, accept callings, or love The Lord because I'm told that is what I need to do by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or because of friendships with The Church members. Over the years, I have often been judged, treated as an 'unworthy' by more successful members of the Wards I've lived in, had my sons made to feel they weren't welcome, and when I remarried, I married a good nonmember man who adopted those boys as his own family. Sadly, those sons were told by their Primary teacher they would never be in the Eternities with the father they now knew and loved because he and I were not Sealed in the Temple. Are they active church members as middle-aged men with families? No...

I'll leave it to those entities responsible for our donations, who choose to invest in Google, Apple, Visa, Chevron, etc. to justify their Account to The Lord. I'm glad I don't have that responsibility. Money is more a burden than I care to tackle.

Trucker wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 9:30 am

Phantom wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 9:24 am I would suggest you all get your house in order before dictating both what is going on and how the Lord's house should be ordered. You've got no right.

This is just an attempt to shame members into not voicing any concerns, but the members supposedly must be perfect before they can raise any concern. Yet in the church, as said by the Lord himself in the DC multiple times, everything should be done by common consent:

DC 28:13 For all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith.

DC 26:2 2 And all things shall be done by common consent in the church, by much prayer and faith, for all things you shall receive by faith. Amen.

DC 104:71 And there shall not any part of it be used, or taken out of the treasury, only by the voice and common consent of the order.
72 And this shall be the voice and common consent of the order—that any man among you say to the treasurer: I have need of this to help me in my stewardship

How can members even give their consent when things are hidden from them? And what makes current church leaders above the Lord's law, the instruction given directly form him? In fact, are we derelict in our duty by not standing up for following the Lord's pattern?

What proof do you have that anything was hidden from you beyond the word of this one man?

markharr wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 10:46 am

Trucker wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 9:30 am

Phantom wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 9:24 am I would suggest you all get your house in order before dictating both what is going on and how the Lord's house should be ordered. You've got no right.

This is just an attempt to shame members into not voicing any concerns, but the members supposedly must be perfect before they can raise any concern. Yet in the church, as said by the Lord himself in the DC multiple times, everything should be done by common consent:

DC 28:13 For all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith.

DC 26:2 2 And all things shall be done by common consent in the church, by much prayer and faith, for all things you shall receive by faith. Amen.

DC 104:71 And there shall not any part of it be used, or taken out of the treasury, only by the voice and common consent of the order.
72 And this shall be the voice and common consent of the order—that any man among you say to the treasurer: I have need of this to help me in my stewardship

How can members even give their consent when things are hidden from them? And what makes current church leaders above the Lord's law, the instruction given directly form him? In fact, are we derelict in our duty by not standing up for following the Lord's pattern?

What proof do you have that anything was hidden from you beyond the word of this one man?

I did not know the church had over $100 billion. Did you?

Trucker wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 11:55 am

markharr wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 10:46 am

Trucker wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 9:30 am

Phantom wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 9:24 am I would suggest you all get your house in order before dictating both what is going on and how the Lord's house should be ordered. You've got no right.

This is just an attempt to shame members into not voicing any concerns, but the members supposedly must be perfect before they can raise any concern. Yet in the church, as said by the Lord himself in the DC multiple times, everything should be done by common consent:

DC 28:13 For all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith.

DC 26:2 2 And all things shall be done by common consent in the church, by much prayer and faith, for all things you shall receive by faith. Amen.

DC 104:71 And there shall not any part of it be used, or taken out of the treasury, only by the voice and common consent of the order.
72 And this shall be the voice and common consent of the order—that any man among you say to the treasurer: I have need of this to help me in my stewardship

How can members even give their consent when things are hidden from them? And what makes current church leaders above the Lord's law, the instruction given directly form him? In fact, are we derelict in our duty by not standing up for following the Lord's pattern?

What proof do you have that anything was hidden from you beyond the word of this one man?

I did not know the church had over $100 billion. Did you?

Why does it matter how much money the church had squirreled away? How much is too much? Would 10 billion be the right number? How about 100 Million instead? Not sure what the big fuss is about. The church has money, so what? I'm not understanding what is so Earth shattering and life changing in finding out how much money the church had tied up in these funds.

Trucker wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 11:55 am

markharr wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 10:46 am

Trucker wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 9:30 am

Phantom wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 9:24 am I would suggest you all get your house in order before dictating both what is going on and how the Lord's house should be ordered. You've got no right.

This is just an attempt to shame members into not voicing any concerns, but the members supposedly must be perfect before they can raise any concern. Yet in the church, as said by the Lord himself in the DC multiple times, everything should be done by common consent:

DC 28:13 For all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith.

DC 26:2 2 And all things shall be done by common consent in the church, by much prayer and faith, for all things you shall receive by faith. Amen.

DC 104:71 And there shall not any part of it be used, or taken out of the treasury, only by the voice and common consent of the order.
72 And this shall be the voice and common consent of the order—that any man among you say to the treasurer: I have need of this to help me in my stewardship

How can members even give their consent when things are hidden from them? And what makes current church leaders above the Lord's law, the instruction given directly form him? In fact, are we derelict in our duty by not standing up for following the Lord's pattern?

What proof do you have that anything was hidden from you beyond the word of this one man?

I did not know the church had over $100 billion. Did you?

With all of their investments, I think I did know.

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 12:10 pm

Trucker wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 11:55 am

markharr wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 10:46 am

Trucker wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 9:30 am

This is just an attempt to shame members into not voicing any concerns, but the members supposedly must be perfect before they can raise any concern. Yet in the church, as said by the Lord himself in the DC multiple times, everything should be done by common consent:

DC 28:13 For all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith.

DC 26:2 2 And all things shall be done by common consent in the church, by much prayer and faith, for all things you shall receive by faith. Amen.

DC 104:71 And there shall not any part of it be used, or taken out of the treasury, only by the voice and common consent of the order.
72 And this shall be the voice and common consent of the order—that any man among you say to the treasurer: I have need of this to help me in my stewardship

How can members even give their consent when things are hidden from them? And what makes current church leaders above the Lord's law, the instruction given directly form him? In fact, are we derelict in our duty by not standing up for following the Lord's pattern?

What proof do you have that anything was hidden from you beyond the word of this one man?

I did not know the church had over $100 billion. Did you?

Why does it matter how much money the church had squirreled away? How much is too much? Would 10 billion be the right number? How about 100 Million instead? Not sure what the big fuss is about. The church has money, so what? I'm not understanding what is so Earth shattering and life changing in finding out how much money the church had tied up in these funds.

It matters because of how the Church teaches tithing. If the Church taught tithing the way the Scriptures taught it and the Church had 500 billion it wouldn't matter. Problem is the Church teaches pay tithing on any money you receive-but that's not how the Scriptures teach it.

johnBob wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 12:13 pm

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 12:10 pm

Trucker wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 11:55 am

markharr wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 10:46 am


What proof do you have that anything was hidden from you beyond the word of this one man?

I did not know the church had over $100 billion. Did you?

Why does it matter how much money the church had squirreled away? How much is too much? Would 10 billion be the right number? How about 100 Million instead? Not sure what the big fuss is about. The church has money, so what? I'm not understanding what is so Earth shattering and life changing in finding out how much money the church had tied up in these funds.

It matters because of how the Church teaches tithing. If the Church taught tithing the way the Scriptures taught it and the Church had 500 billion it wouldn't matter. Problem is the Church teaches pay tithing on any money you receive-but that's not how the Scriptures teach it.

I absolutely agree with you that the church could do a better job explaining this important concept. I was one who paid on everything until I learned about the mission president's handbook that gave the best explanation for how to pay tithing. I have shared this with close family members but have adhered to the church's direction that tithing is a personal matter between the Lord and each member. So I will not inject my opinion on the matter and try to have people follow me. (Quick way to get Ex'd as well)

That being said, the official church stance is still in compliance with the scripture. It is just being interpreted wrong, but the church is jot doing anything to correct it. Much like the other issues that they should be also correcting like women and the priesthood, being born "this way", environmentalism and the cult it is, liberalism as a mental disorder, etc.... however, the church is a big tent and allows members to have their own thought on things less important than their own salvation, so they let these things be.

I myself observe the the law of tithes as I understand it from the scriptures and the church handbook that defines what should be tithes and what shouldn't.

Again, the church hasn't lied about tithing, they just havent clarified it.

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 12:33 pm

johnBob wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 12:13 pm

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 12:10 pm

Trucker wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 11:55 am

I did not know the church had over $100 billion. Did you?

Why does it matter how much money the church had squirreled away? How much is too much? Would 10 billion be the right number? How about 100 Million instead? Not sure what the big fuss is about. The church has money, so what? I'm not understanding what is so Earth shattering and life changing in finding out how much money the church had tied up in these funds.

It matters because of how the Church teaches tithing. If the Church taught tithing the way the Scriptures taught it and the Church had 500 billion it wouldn't matter. Problem is the Church teaches pay tithing on any money you receive-but that's not how the Scriptures teach it.

I absolutely agree with you that the church could do a better job explaining this important concept. I was one who paid on everything until I learned about the mission president's handbook that gave the best explanation for how to pay tithing. I have shared this with close family members but have adhered to the church's direction that tithing is a personal matter between the Lord and each member. So I will not inject my opinion on the matter and try to have people follow me. (Quick way to get Ex'd as well)

That being said, the official church stance is still in compliance with the scripture. It is just being interpreted wrong, but the church is jot doing anything to correct it. Much like the other issues that they should be also correcting like women and the priesthood, being born "this way", environmentalism and the cult it is, liberalism as a mental disorder, etc.... however, the church is a big tent and allows members to have their own thought on things less important than their own salvation, so they let these things be.

I myself observe the the law of tithes as I understand it from the scriptures and the church handbook that defines what should be tithes and what shouldn't.

Again, the church hasn't lied about tithing, they just havent clarified it.

I don't quite agree with you. It's a lie by omission. Either the guys up at the top don't know how to study and read Scriptures or they are willfully letting people pay tithing incorrectly. It really doesn't take much to study the Scriptures and figure out how tithing should be paid. It simply requires an 1828 dictionary, a critical thinking brain and a good reading of the text.

I think it's intentional. The Church has been at various points in time in dire straits financially, since this new preaching of tithing the Church has not had ANY financial problems. But it's not my problem-God will correct it in His own due time.

You bring up some interesting points about other "issues". At one point simply ADVOCATING for polygamy-mind you not practicing it, but advocating for it would get one excommunicated. I actually think tithing is the heart of all these other issues and why they are spreading.

Who is our God?

I think teaching tithing incorrectly and letting it be that way has corrupted all manner of doctrine. When you are more concerned about what the income you take in is (aka tithing) vs. teaching pure doctrine you start compromising on your principles. Why hasn't the Church completely cut-off anyone who advocates for homosexuality? They did it with polygamy. Why can't they do it with homosexuality? They aren't beholden to anybody-except God. No, they don't because inside the Church too many people would leave or be cut off. Too many people specifically IN THE WEST who make hundreds of thousands of dollars. You cut off people who advocate for homosexuality today-and tithing would probably drop by 25-30% or MORE, maybe close to 50%.

How much money does it take to operate this Church? Taxes on buildings, debt, loans, no one has a CLUE what the true status is of the finances of the Church. Set your focus on money and it becomes your god-it corrupts your decision making.

Sad thing most of these guys probably don't even know it-an expensive vase behind a glass container while they explain how tithing money is used properly? Give me a break. Sure the vase might have been gifted to them-that's possible. It just shows how completely out of touch with reality they are to even have it in the video.

I was curious, so I looked at one of the church's big ranches in Florida to see how much it might be worth. It's next to Orlando, and it's about 300,000 acres. The church is currently making plans to develop some of the ranch into communities for the folks in neighboring counties. I got on zillow and looked at 27 empty lots under an acre to get an idea for what an acre might be worth in Orlando and surrounding counties. the highest lot was going for $975k. The lowest was $20k. Most were over $100k. The average price of those 27 lots is $230,192 for a lot between 3/4 - 1 acre. For simplicity, let's pretend all of the lots sold for the current average price, and the church decided to sell the entire thing in lots. That is, 300,000 acres selling for $230k each = $69B. This ranch was started in the 1950's from overcut timber stands that were poorly managed, along with a lot of swampland; today's value is the result of a lot of hard work and careful management over 70 years. You can read about the ranch here: https://www.deseretranches.com/Home/LegacyHistory

I don't get folks that want to fault the church for doing exactly what it tells its members to do- invest wisely, be consistent, work hard, be frugal, don't take handouts, and be a good steward. This is what success looks like. How about instead of being jealous, maybe try to emulate them? Yes- emulation: figure out a way to do what they do financially and charitably. I'll bet it'll make you a better person. Me? I want to be debt-free so I can work "for fun" and help out folks around me less fortunate than myself. I don't really care about being "rich".

Church following its own counsel, says me:

live strictly within your income and save something for a rainy day. Incorporate in your lives the discipline of budgeting that which the Lord has blessed you with. As regularly as you pay your tithing, set aside an amount needed for future family requirements.

avoid excessive debt. Necessary debt should be incurred only after careful, thoughtful prayer and after obtaining the best possible advice. We need the discipline to stay well within our ability to pay. Wisely we have been counseled to avoid debt as we would avoid the plague.

A well-managed family does not pay interest—it earns it. The definition I received from a wise boss at one time in my early business career was “Thems that understands interest receives it, thems that don’t pays it.”

I don't see anything stopping anyone from being as smart with their money as the church is. I'm actually encouraged by wise management of funds. Think if the opposite headline was out there: "Church loses $100B investment fund due to mismanagement". I'll bet you'd lose faith in them pretty quick. But these days, it's a fad and even sexy to hate rich people and evil corporations (except for hollywood types and left leaning politicians- then it's ok to be rich). I'd be very careful in this area.

I just read of a small church in Wyoming that saved up enough money to buy 1.8 million dollars of medical debt for people in Wisconsin that they will never meet. Coming from someone who is drowning in medical debt I couldnt tell you what that would do to my family and my life. Yet my bishop has the nerve to ask me why I stopped paying tithing last year. Maybe because I had to make the decision of losing my home or buying the church another 250,000 chandelier for the temple. Yeah, I lost my temple recommend but thats a heck of a lot better than losing the roof over my kids head. And to be honest if God rejectals me for this decision then I will reject him and his "church."

Aprhys wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 1:57 pm I just read of a small church in Wyoming that saved up enough money to buy 1.8 million dollars of medical debt for people in Wisconsin that they will never meet. Coming from someone who is drowning in medical debt I couldnt tell you what that would do to my family and my life. Yet my bishop has the nerve to ask me why I stopped paying tithing last year. Maybe because I had to make the decision of losing my home or buying the church another 250,000 chandelier for the temple. Yeah, I lost my temple recommend but thats a heck of a lot better than losing the roof over my kids head. And to be honest if God rejectals me for this decision then I will reject him and his "church."

I'd just tell him full-tithe payer-if you honestly believe you are paying a full tithe according to scripture-then a full-tithe payer you are.

The amount you pay in tithing is none of his business. It could be 0, or it could be 1 million dollars-it should make no difference to him. All that matters is according to what you know and believe paying a tithe consists of-do you obey it?

Aprhys wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 1:57 pm I just read of a small church in Wyoming that saved up enough money to buy 1.8 million dollars of medical debt for people in Wisconsin that they will never meet. Coming from someone who is drowning in medical debt I couldnt tell you what that would do to my family and my life. Yet my bishop has the nerve to ask me why I stopped paying tithing last year. Maybe because I had to make the decision of losing my home or buying the church another 250,000 chandelier for the temple. Yeah, I lost my temple recommend but thats a heck of a lot better than losing the roof over my kids head. And to be honest if God rejectals me for this decision then I will reject him and his "church."

I can feel what you are going through. As one who was a full tithe payer for many years prior to and after losing a previous house to foreclosure, it was a tough pill to swallow when my Bishop was only willing to offer food from the storehouse for a few weeks after my husband lost his job, among other things. Had he been willing to help us with a couple of back payments, I might have still been living in that house today, been back up on my feet much sooner than I was, and paid the Church back a long time ago, had they wanted me to, instead of hitting rock bottom, ending up in a divorce and emotionally bankrupt for awhile. Who knows!

Adding to what johnBob said about the Church tolerating pro-LGBTQ members, and not disciplining them for fear of losing some tithing dollars ---- IF this is happening, and if some members are teaching children and youth that being homosexual is perfect in God's eyes, and that God approves of them making a marriage and a family with a same-sex spouse (and yes, there are some people in the Church teaching this) then those who shut their eyes to this, because of the fear of losing $$$$$$, will reap the wrath of God. Better that a millstone be hung around their necks and they be thrown into the sea than to corrupt innocent children.

There is NOT room in Christ's Church for everyone. Unrepentant sinners who teach filthy lies about homosexuality, and actually call it beautiful, divine, holy, blah, blah, blah, do NOT have a place in the Kingdom of God.

If they repent, yes, but not in their unrepentant state, and especially not when they are putting on firesides, Sunday schools, and teaching Primary and YW/YM classes on the "rightness" of homosexuality, including acting on it.

It's the church of Jesus Christ, it is not yet the kingdom of Jesus Christ. I don't expect the church or it's leaders to be perfect and neither does the Savior.

markharr wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 2:29 pm It's the church of Jesus Christ, it is not yet the kingdom of Jesus Christ. I don't expect the church or it's leaders to be perfect and neither does the Savior.

They excommunicate people for teaching that it's necessary to receive the Second Comforter, but they don't excommunicate people for teaching that homosexuality is equal to heterosexuality IN EVERY WAY.

Seriously??????

I'm not demanding perfection, but this is such a weird turning of things upside-down, and calling good evil, and evil good, that I'm pretty sure some ancient prophets are wondering how there could be any doubt that we are in the end times.

You can't make this crap up. LDS people are teaching children and youth that the leaders are wrong, and that gay marriages are holy, blessed by God, beautiful, and exactly what God wants and desires for same-sex attracted people. They are using LDS scripture, words of recent GA's, primary songs, hymns, and every other Mormondom thing out there to prove their point.

And they are receiving no pushback from SLC.

It's the church of Jesus Christ, it is not yet the kingdom of Jesus Christ. I don't expect the church or it's leaders to be perfect and neither does the Savior.

Yes, you are right about that.

I'm not close enough to our local leaders at the moment to make a judgement about their standing before Christ.

In looking over the past many decades of being an active member and 'recommend holder', however, it does occur to me that some local leaders who had it in their power to influence for good and encourage those who needed encouragement, might have been a bit more humble in seeking inspiration.

Trucker wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 9:30 am

Phantom wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 9:24 am I would suggest you all get your house in order before dictating both what is going on and how the Lord's house should be ordered. You've got no right.

This is just an attempt to shame members into not voicing any concerns, but the members supposedly must be perfect before they can raise any concern. Yet in the church, as said by the Lord himself in the DC multiple times, everything should be done by common consent:

DC 28:13 For all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith.

DC 26:2 2 And all things shall be done by common consent in the church, by much prayer and faith, for all things you shall receive by faith. Amen.

DC 104:71 And there shall not any part of it be used, or taken out of the treasury, only by the voice and common consent of the order.
72 And this shall be the voice and common consent of the order—that any man among you say to the treasurer: I have need of this to help me in my stewardship

How can members even give their consent when things are hidden from them? And what makes current church leaders above the Lord's law, the instruction given directly form him? In fact, are we derelict in our duty by not standing up for following the Lord's pattern?

That stuff was just for the early saints













Jk

David13 wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 3:32 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 1:52 pm TITHES ARE INTENDED,at least in large part, FOR THE POOR...

Thinker

The church does feed the poor, and clothe them, and otherwise provide for them. To an extent.

But it cannot be all the time in all cases without limit for the entire world.

If that were don't the 100B would last about two months. And the people would still be hungry, would still need more clothes, and would still be sick.

So the church does some things within reason.

Working for Deseret Industries is far better than being on welfare, food stamps, etc.
dc

David,
You’re correct - the church does do some good to an extent - that extent is a drop in the bucket compared to what they’re capable and obligated.

Also, to clarify, by “poor” I meant the many outside the US & other rich countries - the poor who do NOT have welfare resources to turn to. I think we agree that often in the US welfare is abused and not administered responsibly. But there are many poor orphaned children and others who desperately need help & that is what tithes are meant for, at least in large part.

The East Wind wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 3:58 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 1:52 pm TITHES ARE INTENDED,at least in large part, FOR THE POOR. This is reiterated in Genesis 14, Deuteronomy 14 & moreover Christ told the rich to give it all to the poor but noted that they often wouldn’t and thus it would be hard for the rich (like our church) to enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many people - including children - are suffering and need help, & I don’t mean US generational welfare abuse but I mean in poor countries where they lack food, clean water, etc.

Most people on this forum are not children - so stop acting like children, hiding behind parental substitute authorities. Do you honestly think if you do wrong out of obedience to following man over God, that is ok? Sorry to be so bluntly harsh, but Christ said it even more plain:



Grand ribon-cutting opening for another mall (at least 2 now) built using the name of Jesus Christ...




Even if you designated fast offerings - the church leaders now say it’s their money and they can use it as they want...



For a long time before this documented news about the church’s financial corruption, there have been unethical behavior from those up top the Lds church.

1) They warped scripture to get more money (tithes are supposed to be based on increase not income).
2) They take from the poor by demanding based on income when the poor have no increase left.
3) They disobey the law of tithing (Deut 14:28-29 - which is not taught in curriculum about tithing) - which states that at least 1/3 of tithes are supposed to be given to the poor.
4) Finances are kept secret except Oaks admitted no tithes go to the poor.
5) They use the temple to make money - charging for worthiness. This type of thing is the only time on record when Jesus expressed anger.

I don’t fully agree with you but I love your honesty and passion on this. I can tell it really means a lot to you.

Thank you. That warms my heart & encourages me to appreciate others’ goodness intentions even when we disagree.

I am passionate about this! Many hands make light work!
Honest charities are open with how tithes are handled. Be good stewards of your tithes and offerings, in ensuring they help “the least of these,” as Christ would want... https://www.charitynavigator.org/

That stuff was just for the early saints

Hmmm.....

I was told by one of my BYU Book of Mormon instructors in 1978 that very same thing regarding Mosiah 4:16-23.

Since that was during the same time I was only eating once a day and fasting one full day a week in order to feed my sons while going to school, I had to make sure I had heard him correctly. I made an appointment and visited him in his office. I repeated what I understood him to say and asked if I had heard him correctly. "Yes," he said, "Any person in financial crisis need only repent, and things will be put aright."

Are you also saying that the following 'stuff was just for King Benjamin's time and People'?

Mosiah 4
16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.
17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—
18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.
19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?
20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.
21 And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another.
22 And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.
23 I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world.

Believing that scripture does not apply to our particular time in mortality certainly makes things a lot less complicated, doesn't it?