LDS Freedom Forum

simpleton wrote: ↑February 7th, 2020, 12:37 pm Joseph's statement above does not by no means apply to a murderer. A murderer hath not eternal life. And I would no more sit and eat with a murderer,( if I knew he was one) than step into a den of vipers. That murderer should receive the death penalty period. Firing squad.

simpleton wrote: ↑February 7th, 2020, 12:37 pm Joseph's statement above does not by no means apply to a murderer. A murderer hath not eternal life. And I would no more sit and eat with a murderer,( if I knew he was one) than step into a den of vipers. That murderer should receive the death penalty period. Firing squad.

The Creator wrote: ↑February 7th, 2020, 1:52 pm

simpleton wrote: ↑February 7th, 2020, 12:37 pm Joseph's statement above does not by no means apply to a murderer. A murderer hath not eternal life. And I would no more sit and eat with a murderer,( if I knew he was one) than step into a den of vipers. That murderer should receive the death penalty period. Firing squad.

It's possible to both forgive the murderer and still have them subjected to the appropriate consequence for their actions, i.e. death penalty. Forgiveness doesn't mean not holding them accountable for their actions. Also, you can forgive someone and still not want to ever associate with them.

The Creator wrote: ↑February 7th, 2020, 11:26 am Forgiveness is powerful, it's freedom. Holding grudges is bondage. God requires us to forgive others.

I think Joseph Smith taught a powerful concept when he said:

"I charged the Saints not to follow the example of the adversary in accusing the brethren, and said if you do not accuse each other God will not accuse you. If you have no accuser you will enter heaven; and if you will follow the Revelations and instructions which God gives you through me, I will take you into heaven as my back load. If you will not accuse me, I will not accuse you. If you will throw a cloak of charity over my sins, I will over yours— for charity covereth a multitude of sins. What many people call sin is not sin; I do many things to break down superstition, and I will break it down..."

The Creator wrote: ↑February 7th, 2020, 11:26 am Forgiveness is powerful, it's freedom. Holding grudges is bondage. God requires us to forgive others.

I think Joseph Smith taught a powerful concept when he said:

"I charged the Saints not to follow the example of the adversary in accusing the brethren, and said if you do not accuse each other God will not accuse you. If you have no accuser you will enter heaven; and if you will follow the Revelations and instructions which God gives you through me, I will take you into heaven as my back load. If you will not accuse me, I will not accuse you. If you will throw a cloak of charity over my sins, I will over yours— for charity covereth a multitude of sins. What many people call sin is not sin; I do many things to break down superstition, and I will break it down..."

Meili wrote: ↑February 7th, 2020, 5:24 pm I'm skeptical that she actually forgave him. I think forgiveness is something entirely different than what we think it is.

Silver Pie wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 9:47 am

Meili wrote: ↑February 7th, 2020, 5:24 pm I'm skeptical that she actually forgave him. I think forgiveness is something entirely different than what we think it is.

I think when we forgive someone that means we no longer have vengeful thoughts towards them. We no longer have agony over what they've done. We might even reach the point where we wish them well or we compassionately understand why they did what they did.

That's completely different from God for giving them. We have zero control over that part.

Meili wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 1:27 pm

Silver Pie wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 9:47 am

Meili wrote: ↑February 7th, 2020, 5:24 pm I'm skeptical that she actually forgave him. I think forgiveness is something entirely different than what we think it is.

I think when we forgive someone that means we no longer have vengeful thoughts towards them. We no longer have agony over what they've done. We might even reach the point where we wish them well or we compassionately understand why they did what they did.

That's completely different from God for giving them. We have zero control over that part.

I have discovered that's it's entirely possible to suppress big difficult emotions and think we have forgiven. Unfortunately, though we may not be consciously feeling the emotions anymore, they still influence our lives in negative ways. When they are buried deep down, they have more tendency to hijack our lives in all the wrong ways than if we are consciously feeling them and dealing with them.

I think actual forgiveness is not easy and may not even be possible in some cases. When someone has done something that will cause hurt for the rest of your life, can you truly forgive them?

simpleton wrote: ↑February 7th, 2020, 12:37 pm Joseph's statement above does not by no means apply to a murderer. A murderer hath not eternal life. And I would no more sit and eat with a murderer,( if I knew he was one) than step into a den of vipers. That murderer should receive the death penalty period. Firing squad.

David13 wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 1:18 pm Forgiveness benefits the victims (or victim's mother). Not the transgressor.


He's still as culpable as ever, and must face the worldly consequences, which includes the death penalty (or should, in far more cases.)
dc

Meili wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 1:27 pm I have discovered that's it's entirely possible to suppress big difficult emotions and think we have forgiven. Unfortunately, though we may not be consciously feeling the emotions anymore, they still influence our lives in negative ways. When they are buried deep down, they have more tendency to hijack our lives in all the wrong ways than if we are consciously feeling them and dealing with them.

I think actual forgiveness is not easy and may not even be possible in some cases. When someone has done something that will cause hurt for the rest of your life, can you truly forgive them?

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 2:39 pmThe Atonement is powerful. It can heal all wounds.

ori wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 3:02 pmI believe it’s our duty to forgive all men, no matter what they do. But, the church does not have to forgive all men.

D&C 64
10 ​I, the Lord, will ​​​forgive​ whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to ​​​forgive​ all men.

ori wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 3:08 pm forgiveness is for both parties. . . .

Forgiveness is primarily for the wronged, but it helps the perpetrator as well.

Silver Pie wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 4:08 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 2:39 pmThe Atonement is powerful. It can heal all wounds.

I agree. The Atonement is incredibly powerful. When we genuinely tap into it, miracles can happen. At the same time, I think that we don't often tap into the reality of it very often - only what we think it is or some small part of it. It's as if we can't really believe that it can heal all our wounds, whether those be our own sins, stupidity, and mistakes or the sins, stupidity, and mistakes of someone who has harmed us or a loved one. I speak from my own experiences with my own mind and my own struggles to believe Christ's promises.

And I imagine that something as difficult as your child being killed or otherwise harmed would be incredibly difficult to genuinely overcome from the bottom to the top of your being.

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 5:12 pm I agree. Our unbelief prevents us from fully accessing the atonement. We often choose to beleive according to what we see or how others see things rather than what we should see. As we change our mindset to what we should see, that is when the miracles happen. An example given was once this - Is it easier to raise a person from the dead, or to cure blindness, or to remove pain by a blessing? It is all the same power and the same source. What happens is that in our minds we create mountains. That is why we must fast to remove the mountain. Yet if we begin to see that it is all the same power from the same source and it is as easy to receive forgiveness of sins as it is to say "rise up, take thy bed and walk." (see gospels for reference). We truly, as a people msut learn to beleive again.

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 5:27 pm Maybe I'm in the minority, but I dont think I could forgive my innocent child's murderer until I had them atone with their blood, as it is dictated in scripture. (Pre-mosiac law) Then I could forgive them.
I would go to my judgement satisfied that I did not transgress the laws of God.

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 2:39 pm

Meili wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 1:27 pm

Silver Pie wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 9:47 am

Meili wrote: ↑February 7th, 2020, 5:24 pm I'm skeptical that she actually forgave him. I think forgiveness is something entirely different than what we think it is.

I think when we forgive someone that means we no longer have vengeful thoughts towards them. We no longer have agony over what they've done. We might even reach the point where we wish them well or we compassionately understand why they did what they did.

That's completely different from God for giving them. We have zero control over that part.

I have discovered that's it's entirely possible to suppress big difficult emotions and think we have forgiven. Unfortunately, though we may not be consciously feeling the emotions anymore, they still influence our lives in negative ways. When they are buried deep down, they have more tendency to hijack our lives in all the wrong ways than if we are consciously feeling them and dealing with them.

I think actual forgiveness is not easy and may not even be possible in some cases. When someone has done something that will cause hurt for the rest of your life, can you truly forgive them?

Those thoughts are the philosophies of men at best mingled with scripture. The Atonement is powerful. It can heal all wounds. The question is "do we believe?" I can tell you right now there were negative things that happened in my life, traumatizing. Jesus saved me, there is a mere memory, but not ill feeling. The power of God is mighty, we should avoid denying it. God loves us all and He will help heal our wounds if we come unto HIm. So if you don't believe, I would humbly ask that you begin to ask Him to help you bleieve. There is joy in Christ and in the gospel. It is called living after the manner of happiness for a reason. He will answer if you keep begging and seeking and ask for a broken heart and contrite spirit. Then one day you will see how much the past doesn't define you anymore, it is only Jesus that defines us. Often times it begins by forgiving ourself. And for me, that only came from me giving everything up and asking the Lord to do it for me because I didn't know how, I had tried everything possible, He did it and it changed my life. You can have that too.

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 5:12 pm

Silver Pie wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 4:08 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 2:39 pmThe Atonement is powerful. It can heal all wounds.

I agree. The Atonement is incredibly powerful. When we genuinely tap into it, miracles can happen. At the same time, I think that we don't often tap into the reality of it very often - only what we think it is or some small part of it. It's as if we can't really believe that it can heal all our wounds, whether those be our own sins, stupidity, and mistakes or the sins, stupidity, and mistakes of someone who has harmed us or a loved one. I speak from my own experiences with my own mind and my own struggles to believe Christ's promises.

And I imagine that something as difficult as your child being killed or otherwise harmed would be incredibly difficult to genuinely overcome from the bottom to the top of your being.

I agree. Our unbelief prevents us from fully accessing the atonement. We often choose to beleive according to what we see or how others see things rather than what we should see. As we change our mindset to what we should see, that is when the miracles happen. An example given was once this - Is it easier to raise a person from the dead, or to cure blindness, or to remove pain by a blessing? It is all the same power and the same source. What happens is that in our minds we create mountains. That is why we must fast to remove the mountain. Yet if we begin to see that it is all the same power from the same source and it is as easy to receive forgiveness of sins as it is to say "rise up, take thy bed and walk." (see gospels for reference). We truly, as a people msut learn to beleive again. To be clear I'm not at all angry with Meili, but was merely trying to jolt in Meili a recognizance that God is more powerful than naything we believe and know. We have to align our minds with Him ans see the world the way He sees it rather than us aligning our minds to the way the world sees it and trying to fit God into that box. My prayer is often "Lord, help thou mine unbelief" when I doubt. He has always helped. He always will because HE is God and like Nephi said, He is more powerful than Laban's 50 or thousands or tens of thousands. The same is for our hurts and pains, He is more powerful than them all and suffered specifically so that He might know how to succor us. Succor means in the 1828 dictionary to relieve AND deliver them from difficulty, want or distress. We just need to believe again. God wants us to so badly. He is begging. In revelations it states He is at the door knocking hoping for just someone to listen and let Him in, and when they do, He says that He will sup with them.