LDS Freedom Forum

Silver Pie wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 4:12 pm

ori wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 3:02 pmI believe it’s our duty to forgive all men, no matter what they do. But, the church does not have to forgive all men.

D&C 64
10 ​I, the Lord, will ​​​forgive​ whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to ​​​forgive​ all men.

Unfortunately, that scripture says, "I, the Lord," not, "I, the Church," and I don't think this is a case of "whether by the voice of my servants or my own, it is the same." Forgiveness, in my opinion, is a personal thing between the sinner, God, and whoever may have been harmed by the sin - and that a religious institution/Church leaders have no business being part of that, unless one has harmed them.

Meili wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 7:03 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 2:39 pm

Meili wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 1:27 pm

Silver Pie wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 9:47 am

I think when we forgive someone that means we no longer have vengeful thoughts towards them. We no longer have agony over what they've done. We might even reach the point where we wish them well or we compassionately understand why they did what they did.

That's completely different from God for giving them. We have zero control over that part.

I have discovered that's it's entirely possible to suppress big difficult emotions and think we have forgiven. Unfortunately, though we may not be consciously feeling the emotions anymore, they still influence our lives in negative ways. When they are buried deep down, they have more tendency to hijack our lives in all the wrong ways than if we are consciously feeling them and dealing with them.

I think actual forgiveness is not easy and may not even be possible in some cases. When someone has done something that will cause hurt for the rest of your life, can you truly forgive them?

Those thoughts are the philosophies of men at best mingled with scripture. The Atonement is powerful. It can heal all wounds. The question is "do we believe?" I can tell you right now there were negative things that happened in my life, traumatizing. Jesus saved me, there is a mere memory, but not ill feeling. The power of God is mighty, we should avoid denying it. God loves us all and He will help heal our wounds if we come unto HIm. So if you don't believe, I would humbly ask that you begin to ask Him to help you bleieve. There is joy in Christ and in the gospel. It is called living after the manner of happiness for a reason. He will answer if you keep begging and seeking and ask for a broken heart and contrite spirit. Then one day you will see how much the past doesn't define you anymore, it is only Jesus that defines us. Often times it begins by forgiving ourself. And for me, that only came from me giving everything up and asking the Lord to do it for me because I didn't know how, I had tried everything possible, He did it and it changed my life. You can have that too.

Philosophies of woman unmingled with scripture but based on real world experience. I did as you suggested, had horrific things miraculously lifted from me and then twenty years later . . . BAM, they weren't actually gone. Not only were they not gone but I had made many terrible decisions because those horrific things were affecting my judgment all that time. Hence my conclusion that I think forgiveness is something entirely different than we think it is.

ori wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 7:22 pm

Silver Pie wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 4:12 pm

ori wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 3:02 pmI believe it’s our duty to forgive all men, no matter what they do. But, the church does not have to forgive all men.

D&C 64
10 ​I, the Lord, will ​​​forgive​ whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to ​​​forgive​ all men.

Unfortunately, that scripture says, "I, the Lord," not, "I, the Church," and I don't think this is a case of "whether by the voice of my servants or my own, it is the same." Forgiveness, in my opinion, is a personal thing between the sinner, God, and whoever may have been harmed by the sin - and that a religious institution/Church leaders have no business being part of that, unless one has harmed them.

Yes, I think you misunderstood me. I used that scripture to support my claim that individuals should always forgive, no matter what the sin is. I was not using it to support the claim that the church doesn't always have to forgive. The Doctrine and Covenants mentions that 2nd time (repeat) adulterers are not to be accepted back into the church:

D&C 42
25 But he that has committed adultery and repents with all his heart, and forsaketh it, and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive;
26 But if he doeth it again, he shall not be forgiven, but shall be cast out.

Victims involved in the 2-time adultery are still required to forgive. But the church does not have to extend forgiveness to that individual.

Here is another interesting one:

D&C 42
18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.
...
79 And it shall come to pass, that if any persons among you shall kill they shall be delivered up and dealt with according to the laws of the land; for remember that he hath no forgiveness; and it shall be proved according to the laws of the land.

I interpret this one, along with verses 25 and 26, as indicating that the church is not to forgive murderers. But I could see how that could be interpreted a little differently.

ori wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 7:22 pmYes, I think you misunderstood me. I used that scripture to support my claim that individuals should always forgive, no matter what the sin is.

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 7:55 pm

Meili wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 7:03 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 2:39 pm

Meili wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 1:27 pm

I have discovered that's it's entirely possible to suppress big difficult emotions and think we have forgiven. Unfortunately, though we may not be consciously feeling the emotions anymore, they still influence our lives in negative ways. When they are buried deep down, they have more tendency to hijack our lives in all the wrong ways than if we are consciously feeling them and dealing with them.

I think actual forgiveness is not easy and may not even be possible in some cases. When someone has done something that will cause hurt for the rest of your life, can you truly forgive them?

Those thoughts are the philosophies of men at best mingled with scripture. The Atonement is powerful. It can heal all wounds. The question is "do we believe?" I can tell you right now there were negative things that happened in my life, traumatizing. Jesus saved me, there is a mere memory, but not ill feeling. The power of God is mighty, we should avoid denying it. God loves us all and He will help heal our wounds if we come unto HIm. So if you don't believe, I would humbly ask that you begin to ask Him to help you bleieve. There is joy in Christ and in the gospel. It is called living after the manner of happiness for a reason. He will answer if you keep begging and seeking and ask for a broken heart and contrite spirit. Then one day you will see how much the past doesn't define you anymore, it is only Jesus that defines us. Often times it begins by forgiving ourself. And for me, that only came from me giving everything up and asking the Lord to do it for me because I didn't know how, I had tried everything possible, He did it and it changed my life. You can have that too.

Philosophies of woman unmingled with scripture but based on real world experience. I did as you suggested, had horrific things miraculously lifted from me and then twenty years later . . . BAM, they weren't actually gone. Not only were they not gone but I had made many terrible decisions because those horrific things were affecting my judgment all that time. Hence my conclusion that I think forgiveness is something entirely different than we think it is.

I am sorry for your experience. almost 20 years later and mine is still good and I'm at a greater stage of peace and happiness than ever before - none of it by my own doing. I have a friend who suffered from sexual abuse as a child from church members - multiple times. She was on her deathbed - almost 20 years later. Her family thought she was going to die, she was literally withering away. She was caught up in a vision and saw the Lord literally taking her place and suffering for her telling her to do something and said to her "forgive." For hours in this vision everything replayed exactly as it had in life - except each time the Savior literally took her place and suffered what she had. All she was told to do is forgive. At the end. She said it was amazing, it was as if it never happened, it had, but at the same time because of the Lord it hadn't. More often than not we convince ourselves that we have forgiven rather than actually letting hte Lord do it for us. He does that for each and everyone one of us. He sufferes in our place so we don't have to. So while your real world experience was tragic, I'm sure, and I"m not being flippant about htat. Whatever happened to you, my heart sincerely and fully goes out to you. I just know that the atonement is more powerful than anything we can ever experience in this life. If God can do it for her, and for me I know He can do it for anyone because HE is not a respecter of persons. He loves you a lot, and forgiveness can happen, and I think you are right it is different than how most people look at it because most people try to do it themselves rather than include the Lord to work through them and to be honest about themselves.

Meili wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 11:13 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 7:55 pm

Meili wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 7:03 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 2:39 pm

Those thoughts are the philosophies of men at best mingled with scripture. The Atonement is powerful. It can heal all wounds. The question is "do we believe?" I can tell you right now there were negative things that happened in my life, traumatizing. Jesus saved me, there is a mere memory, but not ill feeling. The power of God is mighty, we should avoid denying it. God loves us all and He will help heal our wounds if we come unto HIm. So if you don't believe, I would humbly ask that you begin to ask Him to help you bleieve. There is joy in Christ and in the gospel. It is called living after the manner of happiness for a reason. He will answer if you keep begging and seeking and ask for a broken heart and contrite spirit. Then one day you will see how much the past doesn't define you anymore, it is only Jesus that defines us. Often times it begins by forgiving ourself. And for me, that only came from me giving everything up and asking the Lord to do it for me because I didn't know how, I had tried everything possible, He did it and it changed my life. You can have that too.

Philosophies of woman unmingled with scripture but based on real world experience. I did as you suggested, had horrific things miraculously lifted from me and then twenty years later . . . BAM, they weren't actually gone. Not only were they not gone but I had made many terrible decisions because those horrific things were affecting my judgment all that time. Hence my conclusion that I think forgiveness is something entirely different than we think it is.

I am sorry for your experience. almost 20 years later and mine is still good and I'm at a greater stage of peace and happiness than ever before - none of it by my own doing. I have a friend who suffered from sexual abuse as a child from church members - multiple times. She was on her deathbed - almost 20 years later. Her family thought she was going to die, she was literally withering away. She was caught up in a vision and saw the Lord literally taking her place and suffering for her telling her to do something and said to her "forgive." For hours in this vision everything replayed exactly as it had in life - except each time the Savior literally took her place and suffered what she had. All she was told to do is forgive. At the end. She said it was amazing, it was as if it never happened, it had, but at the same time because of the Lord it hadn't. More often than not we convince ourselves that we have forgiven rather than actually letting hte Lord do it for us. He does that for each and everyone one of us. He sufferes in our place so we don't have to. So while your real world experience was tragic, I'm sure, and I"m not being flippant about htat. Whatever happened to you, my heart sincerely and fully goes out to you. I just know that the atonement is more powerful than anything we can ever experience in this life. If God can do it for her, and for me I know He can do it for anyone because HE is not a respecter of persons. He loves you a lot, and forgiveness can happen, and I think you are right it is different than how most people look at it because most people try to do it themselves rather than include the Lord to work through them and to be honest about themselves.

Yours is still good and you're at a greater stage of peace and happiness than ever before . . . or you're fooling yourself like I was. Having been on both sides of the fence, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that you actually know. You say a lot of things here that you don't actually know. It's easier to pretend.

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 11th, 2020, 9:48 am

Meili wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 11:13 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 7:55 pm

Meili wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 7:03 pm

Philosophies of woman unmingled with scripture but based on real world experience. I did as you suggested, had horrific things miraculously lifted from me and then twenty years later . . . BAM, they weren't actually gone. Not only were they not gone but I had made many terrible decisions because those horrific things were affecting my judgment all that time. Hence my conclusion that I think forgiveness is something entirely different than we think it is.

I am sorry for your experience. almost 20 years later and mine is still good and I'm at a greater stage of peace and happiness than ever before - none of it by my own doing. I have a friend who suffered from sexual abuse as a child from church members - multiple times. She was on her deathbed - almost 20 years later. Her family thought she was going to die, she was literally withering away. She was caught up in a vision and saw the Lord literally taking her place and suffering for her telling her to do something and said to her "forgive." For hours in this vision everything replayed exactly as it had in life - except each time the Savior literally took her place and suffered what she had. All she was told to do is forgive. At the end. She said it was amazing, it was as if it never happened, it had, but at the same time because of the Lord it hadn't. More often than not we convince ourselves that we have forgiven rather than actually letting hte Lord do it for us. He does that for each and everyone one of us. He sufferes in our place so we don't have to. So while your real world experience was tragic, I'm sure, and I"m not being flippant about htat. Whatever happened to you, my heart sincerely and fully goes out to you. I just know that the atonement is more powerful than anything we can ever experience in this life. If God can do it for her, and for me I know He can do it for anyone because HE is not a respecter of persons. He loves you a lot, and forgiveness can happen, and I think you are right it is different than how most people look at it because most people try to do it themselves rather than include the Lord to work through them and to be honest about themselves.

Yours is still good and you're at a greater stage of peace and happiness than ever before . . . or you're fooling yourself like I was. Having been on both sides of the fence, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that you actually know. You say a lot of things here that you don't actually know. It's easier to pretend.

That's where faith comes in you think I don't know, but you can't because you're not me. I also don't need to convince you because I am what I am, through the great I Am. It really doesn't matter what you think about what I know or even what you thnk what you know. Truth is truth. Sadly our experience is not always truth, but often causes us to miss truth, if only because we define our world view by what we see and not by what we should see. For instance what I believe is all found in scripture. The peace does not come because of that forgiveness, it comes because I submit to God or try to almost every single day of my life. I am for the most part obeying the first great commandment. Alma 7 states: 11 And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.

12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.

13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might ctake upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me.

14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.

D&C 64:8 My disciples, in days of old, sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened.

9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiver not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

11 And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds.

Mosiah 3:19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child,submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father….

Until we throw off the natural man we will be subject to the flesh continually. It is imperative that we become a "saint through the atonement of Christ"

I believe the scriptures and whe nI don't I ask the Lord to help my unbelief. But we have to "become as a little child" Matt 18:3 and 3 Nephi 11:37-38.

So on my part it doesn't matter whehter you beleive me or not. I am who I am through the Great I AM. You and everyone can be like that. Like Paul stated. To live is Christ and to die is gain because we know who we are and where we are going. We are supposed to deny ourself, we are to die, and then be resurrected as one annointed by the Spirit. We pick up our cross daily and bear His name. The one who said "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." In Hebrew forgiveness is lifting it off and removing that burden from ourselves. How can we truly bear the Lord's name if we run around and let our experiences define us, when it is Christ that defines us. Experiences can be testimony, but not who we are, we are to be christ's (anointed ones). If we keep letting the world define us and not letting God and the kingdom define us, the devil and His angels win. We are to "die daily" like Paul said to ourselves and let Christ live in us the hope of glory. (1 Corinth 15:31 & Col 1:27 respectively).

IF you have a hard time believing then let that hope work within you like a seed, and keep feeding it, not of yourself, but of Christ like in Alma 32 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

Meili wrote: ↑February 11th, 2020, 1:54 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 11th, 2020, 9:48 am

Meili wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 11:13 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2020, 7:55 pm

I am sorry for your experience. almost 20 years later and mine is still good and I'm at a greater stage of peace and happiness than ever before - none of it by my own doing. I have a friend who suffered from sexual abuse as a child from church members - multiple times. She was on her deathbed - almost 20 years later. Her family thought she was going to die, she was literally withering away. She was caught up in a vision and saw the Lord literally taking her place and suffering for her telling her to do something and said to her "forgive." For hours in this vision everything replayed exactly as it had in life - except each time the Savior literally took her place and suffered what she had. All she was told to do is forgive. At the end. She said it was amazing, it was as if it never happened, it had, but at the same time because of the Lord it hadn't. More often than not we convince ourselves that we have forgiven rather than actually letting hte Lord do it for us. He does that for each and everyone one of us. He sufferes in our place so we don't have to. So while your real world experience was tragic, I'm sure, and I"m not being flippant about htat. Whatever happened to you, my heart sincerely and fully goes out to you. I just know that the atonement is more powerful than anything we can ever experience in this life. If God can do it for her, and for me I know He can do it for anyone because HE is not a respecter of persons. He loves you a lot, and forgiveness can happen, and I think you are right it is different than how most people look at it because most people try to do it themselves rather than include the Lord to work through them and to be honest about themselves.

Yours is still good and you're at a greater stage of peace and happiness than ever before . . . or you're fooling yourself like I was. Having been on both sides of the fence, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that you actually know. You say a lot of things here that you don't actually know. It's easier to pretend.

That's where faith comes in you think I don't know, but you can't because you're not me. I also don't need to convince you because I am what I am, through the great I Am. It really doesn't matter what you think about what I know or even what you thnk what you know. Truth is truth. Sadly our experience is not always truth, but often causes us to miss truth, if only because we define our world view by what we see and not by what we should see. For instance what I believe is all found in scripture. The peace does not come because of that forgiveness, it comes because I submit to God or try to almost every single day of my life. I am for the most part obeying the first great commandment. Alma 7 states: 11 And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.

12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.

13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might ctake upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me.

14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.

D&C 64:8 My disciples, in days of old, sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened.

9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiver not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

11 And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds.

Mosiah 3:19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child,submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father….

Until we throw off the natural man we will be subject to the flesh continually. It is imperative that we become a "saint through the atonement of Christ"

I believe the scriptures and whe nI don't I ask the Lord to help my unbelief. But we have to "become as a little child" Matt 18:3 and 3 Nephi 11:37-38.

So on my part it doesn't matter whehter you beleive me or not. I am who I am through the Great I AM. You and everyone can be like that. Like Paul stated. To live is Christ and to die is gain because we know who we are and where we are going. We are supposed to deny ourself, we are to die, and then be resurrected as one annointed by the Spirit. We pick up our cross daily and bear His name. The one who said "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." In Hebrew forgiveness is lifting it off and removing that burden from ourselves. How can we truly bear the Lord's name if we run around and let our experiences define us, when it is Christ that defines us. Experiences can be testimony, but not who we are, we are to be christ's (anointed ones). If we keep letting the world define us and not letting God and the kingdom define us, the devil and His angels win. We are to "die daily" like Paul said to ourselves and let Christ live in us the hope of glory. (1 Corinth 15:31 & Col 1:27 respectively).

IF you have a hard time believing then let that hope work within you like a seed, and keep feeding it, not of yourself, but of Christ like in Alma 32 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

If (or I should say when) my daughter comes to me and tells me that I am wrong to limit the amount of sugar she eats, it doesn't matter how much she tries to reason with me, she can't change my mind. I've been a child and an adult and I have enough experience to know what I'm talking about but she's only ever been a child.

You are telling me things that I have already experienced and quoting scriptures that I have already dissected. I've been where you are and done what you've done but you have never been where I am.

True, I can't read your mind and know exactly what you know but I have seen people say that they "know" certain things are true so often that I can be relatively certain that you are just repeating words you were taught to say about things that you don't actually know. I cannot be convinced any more than an adult can go back to being a child and you refuse to be convinced. I don't expect to convince you, but I do expect that my words will make you (and other people) think.

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 11th, 2020, 2:52 pm

Meili wrote: ↑February 11th, 2020, 1:54 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 11th, 2020, 9:48 am

Meili wrote: ↑February 10th, 2020, 11:13 pm

Yours is still good and you're at a greater stage of peace and happiness than ever before . . . or you're fooling yourself like I was. Having been on both sides of the fence, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that you actually know. You say a lot of things here that you don't actually know. It's easier to pretend.

That's where faith comes in you think I don't know, but you can't because you're not me. I also don't need to convince you because I am what I am, through the great I Am. It really doesn't matter what you think about what I know or even what you thnk what you know. Truth is truth. Sadly our experience is not always truth, but often causes us to miss truth, if only because we define our world view by what we see and not by what we should see. For instance what I believe is all found in scripture. The peace does not come because of that forgiveness, it comes because I submit to God or try to almost every single day of my life. I am for the most part obeying the first great commandment. Alma 7 states: 11 And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.

12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.

13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might ctake upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me.

14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.

D&C 64:8 My disciples, in days of old, sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened.

9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiver not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

11 And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds.

Mosiah 3:19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child,submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father….

Until we throw off the natural man we will be subject to the flesh continually. It is imperative that we become a "saint through the atonement of Christ"

I believe the scriptures and whe nI don't I ask the Lord to help my unbelief. But we have to "become as a little child" Matt 18:3 and 3 Nephi 11:37-38.

So on my part it doesn't matter whehter you beleive me or not. I am who I am through the Great I AM. You and everyone can be like that. Like Paul stated. To live is Christ and to die is gain because we know who we are and where we are going. We are supposed to deny ourself, we are to die, and then be resurrected as one annointed by the Spirit. We pick up our cross daily and bear His name. The one who said "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." In Hebrew forgiveness is lifting it off and removing that burden from ourselves. How can we truly bear the Lord's name if we run around and let our experiences define us, when it is Christ that defines us. Experiences can be testimony, but not who we are, we are to be christ's (anointed ones). If we keep letting the world define us and not letting God and the kingdom define us, the devil and His angels win. We are to "die daily" like Paul said to ourselves and let Christ live in us the hope of glory. (1 Corinth 15:31 & Col 1:27 respectively).

IF you have a hard time believing then let that hope work within you like a seed, and keep feeding it, not of yourself, but of Christ like in Alma 32 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

If (or I should say when) my daughter comes to me and tells me that I am wrong to limit the amount of sugar she eats, it doesn't matter how much she tries to reason with me, she can't change my mind. I've been a child and an adult and I have enough experience to know what I'm talking about but she's only ever been a child.

You are telling me things that I have already experienced and quoting scriptures that I have already dissected. I've been where you are and done what you've done but you have never been where I am.

True, I can't read your mind and know exactly what you know but I have seen people say that they "know" certain things are true so often that I can be relatively certain that you are just repeating words you were taught to say about things that you don't actually know. I cannot be convinced any more than an adult can go back to being a child and you refuse to be convinced. I don't expect to convince you, but I do expect that my words will make you (and other people) think.

And yet, I know children that can perform miracles in the Lord's name because they believe and adults that still don't believe and still don't believe in miracles. Experience can teach us false beliefs. There is a reason we are supposed to come to Him as a little child. We are to be fools in the ways of the world and seek Him. Waht is twisted is we have traditions teaching people incorrectly which leads to heartach and a lack of undersatnding of who God is. True beliefs will manifest truth. The problem like is said is that most of us never get over ourselves or ias the scriptures say "deny ourselves" We let philosophies determine what we should see rather than God. I was thinking about this the other day... Even if I am insane, the joy I feel in life is worth it. They call i t the joy of the saints for a reason. Problem is that most people don't udnerstand or try ot live after the manner of happiness - they live after the manner of self-gratification. They do not seek the Lord's will in all things. They do not make Him #1 priority, but make their feelings, make their identity more important than denying self. Heck I do it even when I know not to. So maybe this will make you think too. - As an aside, yes you are correct, too many people say they "know" when they really don't. Yet once in a while some do know. The joy of the scirptures is that they were not made for the carnal mind, but the spiritual. That is why we are to read them with the mind of God i.e. with the Spirit. Asking the Lord for wisdom to teach us waht He is trying to say. If we don't do that, then we create the "philosophies of men mingled with scripture" Hence why we are to become as a little child. The choice is always yours and the hardest part is always letting go. We feel like if we let go, then we lose something, but to die is life. God bless you Meili!

1 Corinth 1:18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Meili wrote: ↑February 11th, 2020, 9:20 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 11th, 2020, 2:52 pm

Meili wrote: ↑February 11th, 2020, 1:54 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 11th, 2020, 9:48 am

That's where faith comes in you think I don't know, but you can't because you're not me. I also don't need to convince you because I am what I am, through the great I Am. It really doesn't matter what you think about what I know or even what you thnk what you know. Truth is truth. Sadly our experience is not always truth, but often causes us to miss truth, if only because we define our world view by what we see and not by what we should see. For instance what I believe is all found in scripture. The peace does not come because of that forgiveness, it comes because I submit to God or try to almost every single day of my life. I am for the most part obeying the first great commandment. Alma 7 states: 11 And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.

12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.

13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might ctake upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me.

14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.

D&C 64:8 My disciples, in days of old, sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened.

9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiver not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

11 And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds.

Mosiah 3:19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child,submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father….

Until we throw off the natural man we will be subject to the flesh continually. It is imperative that we become a "saint through the atonement of Christ"

I believe the scriptures and whe nI don't I ask the Lord to help my unbelief. But we have to "become as a little child" Matt 18:3 and 3 Nephi 11:37-38.

So on my part it doesn't matter whehter you beleive me or not. I am who I am through the Great I AM. You and everyone can be like that. Like Paul stated. To live is Christ and to die is gain because we know who we are and where we are going. We are supposed to deny ourself, we are to die, and then be resurrected as one annointed by the Spirit. We pick up our cross daily and bear His name. The one who said "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." In Hebrew forgiveness is lifting it off and removing that burden from ourselves. How can we truly bear the Lord's name if we run around and let our experiences define us, when it is Christ that defines us. Experiences can be testimony, but not who we are, we are to be christ's (anointed ones). If we keep letting the world define us and not letting God and the kingdom define us, the devil and His angels win. We are to "die daily" like Paul said to ourselves and let Christ live in us the hope of glory. (1 Corinth 15:31 & Col 1:27 respectively).

IF you have a hard time believing then let that hope work within you like a seed, and keep feeding it, not of yourself, but of Christ like in Alma 32 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

If (or I should say when) my daughter comes to me and tells me that I am wrong to limit the amount of sugar she eats, it doesn't matter how much she tries to reason with me, she can't change my mind. I've been a child and an adult and I have enough experience to know what I'm talking about but she's only ever been a child.

You are telling me things that I have already experienced and quoting scriptures that I have already dissected. I've been where you are and done what you've done but you have never been where I am.

True, I can't read your mind and know exactly what you know but I have seen people say that they "know" certain things are true so often that I can be relatively certain that you are just repeating words you were taught to say about things that you don't actually know. I cannot be convinced any more than an adult can go back to being a child and you refuse to be convinced. I don't expect to convince you, but I do expect that my words will make you (and other people) think.

And yet, I know children that can perform miracles in the Lord's name because they believe and adults that still don't believe and still don't believe in miracles. Experience can teach us false beliefs. There is a reason we are supposed to come to Him as a little child. We are to be fools in the ways of the world and seek Him. Waht is twisted is we have traditions teaching people incorrectly which leads to heartach and a lack of undersatnding of who God is. True beliefs will manifest truth. The problem like is said is that most of us never get over ourselves or ias the scriptures say "deny ourselves" We let philosophies determine what we should see rather than God. I was thinking about this the other day... Even if I am insane, the joy I feel in life is worth it. They call i t the joy of the saints for a reason. Problem is that most people don't udnerstand or try ot live after the manner of happiness - they live after the manner of self-gratification. They do not seek the Lord's will in all things. They do not make Him #1 priority, but make their feelings, make their identity more important than denying self. Heck I do it even when I know not to. So maybe this will make you think too. - As an aside, yes you are correct, too many people say they "know" when they really don't. Yet once in a while some do know. The joy of the scirptures is that they were not made for the carnal mind, but the spiritual. That is why we are to read them with the mind of God i.e. with the Spirit. Asking the Lord for wisdom to teach us waht He is trying to say. If we don't do that, then we create the "philosophies of men mingled with scripture" Hence why we are to become as a little child. The choice is always yours and the hardest part is always letting go. We feel like if we let go, then we lose something, but to die is life. God bless you Meili!

1 Corinth 1:18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

When experience teaches us false beliefs it is usually because we have those beliefs in the first place. When we have a set belief, we have a tendency to use our experience to support that belief, whether it does or not. When we encounter experiences that don't support our belief, we discount them, ignore them or make them out to be different than what they are.

Experience can also prompt humility. Young adults often have lofty ideas about all the things they are going to do when they are parents and they are often absolutely sure that they and any other parent who tries is able to do them. But it doesn't take long after the baby comes along for all those fairy tales to fade away and for young parents to become a lot more tolerant of parenting mistakes.

When you just know for certain things that you don't actually know, you fall in the first category every time but you can't see it yourself. On the other hand, it is possible to know some things for sure and be in a place of humility. You are just a lot more careful about separating what you know from what you believe.

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 12th, 2020, 7:24 am

Meili wrote: ↑February 11th, 2020, 9:20 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 11th, 2020, 2:52 pm

Meili wrote: ↑February 11th, 2020, 1:54 pm

If (or I should say when) my daughter comes to me and tells me that I am wrong to limit the amount of sugar she eats, it doesn't matter how much she tries to reason with me, she can't change my mind. I've been a child and an adult and I have enough experience to know what I'm talking about but she's only ever been a child.

You are telling me things that I have already experienced and quoting scriptures that I have already dissected. I've been where you are and done what you've done but you have never been where I am.

True, I can't read your mind and know exactly what you know but I have seen people say that they "know" certain things are true so often that I can be relatively certain that you are just repeating words you were taught to say about things that you don't actually know. I cannot be convinced any more than an adult can go back to being a child and you refuse to be convinced. I don't expect to convince you, but I do expect that my words will make you (and other people) think.

And yet, I know children that can perform miracles in the Lord's name because they believe and adults that still don't believe and still don't believe in miracles. Experience can teach us false beliefs. There is a reason we are supposed to come to Him as a little child. We are to be fools in the ways of the world and seek Him. Waht is twisted is we have traditions teaching people incorrectly which leads to heartach and a lack of undersatnding of who God is. True beliefs will manifest truth. The problem like is said is that most of us never get over ourselves or ias the scriptures say "deny ourselves" We let philosophies determine what we should see rather than God. I was thinking about this the other day... Even if I am insane, the joy I feel in life is worth it. They call i t the joy of the saints for a reason. Problem is that most people don't udnerstand or try ot live after the manner of happiness - they live after the manner of self-gratification. They do not seek the Lord's will in all things. They do not make Him #1 priority, but make their feelings, make their identity more important than denying self. Heck I do it even when I know not to. So maybe this will make you think too. - As an aside, yes you are correct, too many people say they "know" when they really don't. Yet once in a while some do know. The joy of the scirptures is that they were not made for the carnal mind, but the spiritual. That is why we are to read them with the mind of God i.e. with the Spirit. Asking the Lord for wisdom to teach us waht He is trying to say. If we don't do that, then we create the "philosophies of men mingled with scripture" Hence why we are to become as a little child. The choice is always yours and the hardest part is always letting go. We feel like if we let go, then we lose something, but to die is life. God bless you Meili!

1 Corinth 1:18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

When experience teaches us false beliefs it is usually because we have those beliefs in the first place. When we have a set belief, we have a tendency to use our experience to support that belief, whether it does or not. When we encounter experiences that don't support our belief, we discount them, ignore them or make them out to be different than what they are.

Experience can also prompt humility. Young adults often have lofty ideas about all the things they are going to do when they are parents and they are often absolutely sure that they and any other parent who tries is able to do them. But it doesn't take long after the baby comes along for all those fairy tales to fade away and for young parents to become a lot more tolerant of parenting mistakes.

When you just know for certain things that you don't actually know, you fall in the first category every time but you can't see it yourself. On the other hand, it is possible to know some things for sure and be in a place of humility. You are just a lot more careful about separating what you know from what you believe.

Too often we paint the world with our own version of things whether or not we believed them or not it doesn't matter. THere is truth. Christ is the truth. We discover that truth through prayer and scripture study - not through what others tell us, though they might help us on the path. Do we take the words of the Lord at their face value and symbolic value, or do we justify our own perception of things. Do we say... well that happened hten... or well they called it something else back then. I've bene guilty of it myself. For the past 5 years I have been deconstructing beliefs and though processes, traditions, and cultures. I've been breaking it all down to what is truth. There are very few things I know. What I do know is that God does love and He changes lives. He changed mine at the age of 24. For 3 hours I prayed to Him because I wasn't happy, nothing an dI mean nothing I was doing was working. I checked every single box that I needed to check. I was self-rigtheous and I knew what I was doing was right, but why wasn't I experiencing what I came to discover was the joy of the saints? So I prayed, I kept praying. Seeking His will asking why if I was following hte spirit all the time I wasn't happy, why if I was doing all He asked me to do I wasn't happy, why if I was "loving" him like I thought that I wasn't happy. The words came into my mind "forgive yourself" So I thought of every sin I had ever committed and asked for forgiveness. I still wasn't happy. The word's came again "forgive yourself." Again I thought of sins I committed 15 years ago, maybe I hadn't asked for forgiveness - sins I hadn't thought of in years came to mind. Again the thouhg "forgive yourself" because I still wasn't happy. I though of sins I had committed before the age of 8 and asked forgivenss... the feeling still remained I was not happy. Finally the voice said one more time "forgive yourself." I cried out to Him and said, Lord, I don't know how, please help me, I don't know how. I need you or something like that. In that moment my life changed. I literally saw the world differently. I had empathy for others, I felt the Lord's love for others and received a greater gift of discernment that ever before. So all my life people tell me that it is a figment of my imagination, but my personality literally changed in a matter of 5 minutes. I was a different person. I was also happy, I was free. It was God. Oh sure I'm have moments of sadness and even depression afterwards, but they were nothing compared to what was before hand and those moments always pass with a greater state of peace and joy.

So while I don't know much, I do know God changed me and it wasn't of myself. I know because I wasn't expecting all of that. People saw the personality change. I became a new creature. When I turn myself to God with a broken heart and contrite spirit when asking forgiveness or help to forgive, I remember that I coulnd't do it myself, I remember that it is God that helps like He did that time and He does.That is what I know. Very little else, but that I do know. I couldn't deny it if I tried, and I have tried. I've gone through a lot of rebellious moments after and it always comes back to that one moment. It is literally described in the scriptures what happened to me. As I seek the LOrd more and as I give up self, I learn more truth. I learn to love others more. I change even more and for the better. So, if the fruits of the Spirit are peace, love joy, forebearance, temperance, kindness, goodness and faithfulness, I have seen that increase in my life. It is a state of being not a mere moment. It is the Lord changing me. I understand unbelief and not believing because I didn't believe in most of the things I do now 25 years ago. There have been many events which occurred though, outside of myself which showed me otherwise. Things only God could explain. Even some of those experience I can doubt and explain away, but the change that happened to me that day I can not. It is everyones choice to believe or not, I won't convince you or anyone listening either way because we jsut sow or water, but God brings for the the increase.So for me, I gain nothing if you believe me, except a greater happiness as you discover a greater happiness. The choice is ours to what we do with what we have. Like I said before- God bless you Meili and I really sincerely mean that.

Meili wrote: ↑February 12th, 2020, 4:03 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 12th, 2020, 7:24 am

Meili wrote: ↑February 11th, 2020, 9:20 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 11th, 2020, 2:52 pm

And yet, I know children that can perform miracles in the Lord's name because they believe and adults that still don't believe and still don't believe in miracles. Experience can teach us false beliefs. There is a reason we are supposed to come to Him as a little child. We are to be fools in the ways of the world and seek Him. Waht is twisted is we have traditions teaching people incorrectly which leads to heartach and a lack of undersatnding of who God is. True beliefs will manifest truth. The problem like is said is that most of us never get over ourselves or ias the scriptures say "deny ourselves" We let philosophies determine what we should see rather than God. I was thinking about this the other day... Even if I am insane, the joy I feel in life is worth it. They call i t the joy of the saints for a reason. Problem is that most people don't udnerstand or try ot live after the manner of happiness - they live after the manner of self-gratification. They do not seek the Lord's will in all things. They do not make Him #1 priority, but make their feelings, make their identity more important than denying self. Heck I do it even when I know not to. So maybe this will make you think too. - As an aside, yes you are correct, too many people say they "know" when they really don't. Yet once in a while some do know. The joy of the scirptures is that they were not made for the carnal mind, but the spiritual. That is why we are to read them with the mind of God i.e. with the Spirit. Asking the Lord for wisdom to teach us waht He is trying to say. If we don't do that, then we create the "philosophies of men mingled with scripture" Hence why we are to become as a little child. The choice is always yours and the hardest part is always letting go. We feel like if we let go, then we lose something, but to die is life. God bless you Meili!

1 Corinth 1:18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

When experience teaches us false beliefs it is usually because we have those beliefs in the first place. When we have a set belief, we have a tendency to use our experience to support that belief, whether it does or not. When we encounter experiences that don't support our belief, we discount them, ignore them or make them out to be different than what they are.

Experience can also prompt humility. Young adults often have lofty ideas about all the things they are going to do when they are parents and they are often absolutely sure that they and any other parent who tries is able to do them. But it doesn't take long after the baby comes along for all those fairy tales to fade away and for young parents to become a lot more tolerant of parenting mistakes.

When you just know for certain things that you don't actually know, you fall in the first category every time but you can't see it yourself. On the other hand, it is possible to know some things for sure and be in a place of humility. You are just a lot more careful about separating what you know from what you believe.

Too often we paint the world with our own version of things whether or not we believed them or not it doesn't matter. THere is truth. Christ is the truth. We discover that truth through prayer and scripture study - not through what others tell us, though they might help us on the path. Do we take the words of the Lord at their face value and symbolic value, or do we justify our own perception of things. Do we say... well that happened hten... or well they called it something else back then. I've bene guilty of it myself. For the past 5 years I have been deconstructing beliefs and though processes, traditions, and cultures. I've been breaking it all down to what is truth. There are very few things I know. What I do know is that God does love and He changes lives. He changed mine at the age of 24. For 3 hours I prayed to Him because I wasn't happy, nothing an dI mean nothing I was doing was working. I checked every single box that I needed to check. I was self-rigtheous and I knew what I was doing was right, but why wasn't I experiencing what I came to discover was the joy of the saints? So I prayed, I kept praying. Seeking His will asking why if I was following hte spirit all the time I wasn't happy, why if I was doing all He asked me to do I wasn't happy, why if I was "loving" him like I thought that I wasn't happy. The words came into my mind "forgive yourself" So I thought of every sin I had ever committed and asked for forgiveness. I still wasn't happy. The word's came again "forgive yourself." Again I thought of sins I committed 15 years ago, maybe I hadn't asked for forgiveness - sins I hadn't thought of in years came to mind. Again the thouhg "forgive yourself" because I still wasn't happy. I though of sins I had committed before the age of 8 and asked forgivenss... the feeling still remained I was not happy. Finally the voice said one more time "forgive yourself." I cried out to Him and said, Lord, I don't know how, please help me, I don't know how. I need you or something like that. In that moment my life changed. I literally saw the world differently. I had empathy for others, I felt the Lord's love for others and received a greater gift of discernment that ever before. So all my life people tell me that it is a figment of my imagination, but my personality literally changed in a matter of 5 minutes. I was a different person. I was also happy, I was free. It was God. Oh sure I'm have moments of sadness and even depression afterwards, but they were nothing compared to what was before hand and those moments always pass with a greater state of peace and joy.

So while I don't know much, I do know God changed me and it wasn't of myself. I know because I wasn't expecting all of that. People saw the personality change. I became a new creature. When I turn myself to God with a broken heart and contrite spirit when asking forgiveness or help to forgive, I remember that I coulnd't do it myself, I remember that it is God that helps like He did that time and He does.That is what I know. Very little else, but that I do know. I couldn't deny it if I tried, and I have tried. I've gone through a lot of rebellious moments after and it always comes back to that one moment. It is literally described in the scriptures what happened to me. As I seek the LOrd more and as I give up self, I learn more truth. I learn to love others more. I change even more and for the better. So, if the fruits of the Spirit are peace, love joy, forebearance, temperance, kindness, goodness and faithfulness, I have seen that increase in my life. It is a state of being not a mere moment. It is the Lord changing me. I understand unbelief and not believing because I didn't believe in most of the things I do now 25 years ago. There have been many events which occurred though, outside of myself which showed me otherwise. Things only God could explain. Even some of those experience I can doubt and explain away, but the change that happened to me that day I can not. It is everyones choice to believe or not, I won't convince you or anyone listening either way because we jsut sow or water, but God brings for the the increase.So for me, I gain nothing if you believe me, except a greater happiness as you discover a greater happiness. The choice is ours to what we do with what we have. Like I said before- God bless you Meili and I really sincerely mean that.

As I've said before, I have had similar experiences. I have been where you are and done what you've done. I've said what you have said. And now I know how much I was just saying because I had been taught things that I believed but didn't know.

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 12th, 2020, 4:25 pm

Meili wrote: ↑February 12th, 2020, 4:03 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 12th, 2020, 7:24 am

Meili wrote: ↑February 11th, 2020, 9:20 pm

When experience teaches us false beliefs it is usually because we have those beliefs in the first place. When we have a set belief, we have a tendency to use our experience to support that belief, whether it does or not. When we encounter experiences that don't support our belief, we discount them, ignore them or make them out to be different than what they are.

Experience can also prompt humility. Young adults often have lofty ideas about all the things they are going to do when they are parents and they are often absolutely sure that they and any other parent who tries is able to do them. But it doesn't take long after the baby comes along for all those fairy tales to fade away and for young parents to become a lot more tolerant of parenting mistakes.

When you just know for certain things that you don't actually know, you fall in the first category every time but you can't see it yourself. On the other hand, it is possible to know some things for sure and be in a place of humility. You are just a lot more careful about separating what you know from what you believe.

Too often we paint the world with our own version of things whether or not we believed them or not it doesn't matter. THere is truth. Christ is the truth. We discover that truth through prayer and scripture study - not through what others tell us, though they might help us on the path. Do we take the words of the Lord at their face value and symbolic value, or do we justify our own perception of things. Do we say... well that happened hten... or well they called it something else back then. I've bene guilty of it myself. For the past 5 years I have been deconstructing beliefs and though processes, traditions, and cultures. I've been breaking it all down to what is truth. There are very few things I know. What I do know is that God does love and He changes lives. He changed mine at the age of 24. For 3 hours I prayed to Him because I wasn't happy, nothing an dI mean nothing I was doing was working. I checked every single box that I needed to check. I was self-rigtheous and I knew what I was doing was right, but why wasn't I experiencing what I came to discover was the joy of the saints? So I prayed, I kept praying. Seeking His will asking why if I was following hte spirit all the time I wasn't happy, why if I was doing all He asked me to do I wasn't happy, why if I was "loving" him like I thought that I wasn't happy. The words came into my mind "forgive yourself" So I thought of every sin I had ever committed and asked for forgiveness. I still wasn't happy. The word's came again "forgive yourself." Again I thought of sins I committed 15 years ago, maybe I hadn't asked for forgiveness - sins I hadn't thought of in years came to mind. Again the thouhg "forgive yourself" because I still wasn't happy. I though of sins I had committed before the age of 8 and asked forgivenss... the feeling still remained I was not happy. Finally the voice said one more time "forgive yourself." I cried out to Him and said, Lord, I don't know how, please help me, I don't know how. I need you or something like that. In that moment my life changed. I literally saw the world differently. I had empathy for others, I felt the Lord's love for others and received a greater gift of discernment that ever before. So all my life people tell me that it is a figment of my imagination, but my personality literally changed in a matter of 5 minutes. I was a different person. I was also happy, I was free. It was God. Oh sure I'm have moments of sadness and even depression afterwards, but they were nothing compared to what was before hand and those moments always pass with a greater state of peace and joy.

So while I don't know much, I do know God changed me and it wasn't of myself. I know because I wasn't expecting all of that. People saw the personality change. I became a new creature. When I turn myself to God with a broken heart and contrite spirit when asking forgiveness or help to forgive, I remember that I coulnd't do it myself, I remember that it is God that helps like He did that time and He does.That is what I know. Very little else, but that I do know. I couldn't deny it if I tried, and I have tried. I've gone through a lot of rebellious moments after and it always comes back to that one moment. It is literally described in the scriptures what happened to me. As I seek the LOrd more and as I give up self, I learn more truth. I learn to love others more. I change even more and for the better. So, if the fruits of the Spirit are peace, love joy, forebearance, temperance, kindness, goodness and faithfulness, I have seen that increase in my life. It is a state of being not a mere moment. It is the Lord changing me. I understand unbelief and not believing because I didn't believe in most of the things I do now 25 years ago. There have been many events which occurred though, outside of myself which showed me otherwise. Things only God could explain. Even some of those experience I can doubt and explain away, but the change that happened to me that day I can not. It is everyones choice to believe or not, I won't convince you or anyone listening either way because we jsut sow or water, but God brings for the the increase.So for me, I gain nothing if you believe me, except a greater happiness as you discover a greater happiness. The choice is ours to what we do with what we have. Like I said before- God bless you Meili and I really sincerely mean that.

As I've said before, I have had similar experiences. I have been where you are and done what you've done. I've said what you have said. And now I know how much I was just saying because I had been taught things that I believed but didn't know.

If your belief is giving you the happiness of the saints, then continue believing as you will; If your belief is allowing you to know your standing before God and knowing who you are before HIm and that you have a relationship with Him and He intimately knows you, then keep believing as you do; If you are drawing closer to God every day then please keep believing as you do; if it is making you a better human being every day to where the carnal man is becoming more and more of a byword and hiss and has less control in your life, keep believing as you will; if in general you are at peace with who you are before God, keep believing as you will. Seriously please do, but if it isn't, then there may be things you and all of us should self-assess with and see where we are going wrong, because the Kingdom of God is supposed to be within us, and if it isn't and we aren't the kingdom, we are missing something. If we aren't becoming the kingdom - and the Kingdom of God is not meat or drink , but righteousness, peace and joy in the HOly Spirit, then something is missing. Food for thought. May your days be filled with peace continually and joy fill your heart God bless you again and again! If there is any way I can help you please feel free to PM me. I don't have much, but if I can offer any financial assistance or other type of help anything let me know. Adieu.