LDS Freedom Forum

Since you were all moaning yesterday about how the quote I posted was a 'fake quote' (which it isn't, but that's besides the point), here's another quote to illustrate my point, I've even cited it for you:

"And when the spirit of persecution, the spirit of hatred, of wrath, and malice ceases in the world against this people, it will be the time that this people have apostatized and joined hands with the wicked, and never until then; which I pray may never come." (Journal of Discourses 4:327)

Essentially, what I am saying is that we have collectively apostatised and joined hands with the wicked, this is blatant, hence we are accepted by the world. The Book of Mormon musical isn't persecution, nor hatred, nor wrath, nor malice, it's just pathetic joking and that should be obvious. We live like the world, we live among them, etc...

The lack of persecution is actually a bad thing. It shows that we've become exactly like the world and that we have collectively rejected the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. As the Saviour said, "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:10) I don't see much persecution, I only see us holding hands with Babylon, and who can deny it?

It's hard to teach this concept because of the 'All is Well in Zion' mantra we hear a lot. In fact, we are riddled with these false traditions of men which the Book of Mormon constantly warns us of. Joseph Smith said people would "fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all." (TPJS, pg. 331) If you try and teach people the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, you get called an apostate, evil, etc...

My message to everyone is that we should not rely on the arm of flesh, only the Saviour. Trust in Christ only, for Christ is the only foundation upon which we CANNOT fall. Any other foundation (yes, including mortal men), is unstable and will prove our destruction. I don't say this to demean the Church and attack the Lord's anointed, I've been through this already. But we have to learn to rely on Christ only, to truly understand the Gospel and to not fall for false traditions. Study his Gospel, for it's not boring, it's actually very exciting and enjoyable to learn and grasp. It's a truly beautiful thing. Yes, it's sad to see so many fall for false traditions and to be caught up in the corporateness of everything, but Salvation is an indivudual affair and we just have to make sure we are worthy, and try our best to truly convert others. Be ready for that end-time Servant and the great last-days work he will perform, I testify he IS coming. This is what we have to do, because that great test that Heber C. Kimball kept banging on about is coming, and ''Who will be able to stand?" Gain a sure and undeniable knowledge that Jesus IS the Christ, learn the true fulness of his Gospel, and be ready for the great last-days work, I beg of you all. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen and Amen.

Interesting. I'm despised by some immediate family, in-law family and step family all because I'm an active, Prophet sustaining member of the restored church. Persecution doesn't just mean getting tarred and feathered.

Here's another Brigham quote-
The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and he will never suffer you to be led astray if you are found doing your duty. You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a babe in its mother’s arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you astray, for if they should try to do so the Lord would quickly sweep them from the earth. Your leaders are trying to live their religion as far as they are capable of doing so (DBY, 137).

Plenty of persecution today, but we thankfully aren't being jailed or hunted (yet) in order that missionary and temple work can sweep the earth.

Art Vandelay wrote: ↑January 30th, 2020, 10:35 am Here's another Brigham quote-
The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and he will never suffer you to be led astray if you are found doing your duty. You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a babe in its mother’s arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you astray, for if they should try to do so the Lord would quickly sweep them from the earth. Your leaders are trying to live their religion as far as they are capable of doing so (DBY, 137).

Another all is well in Zion BY quote. Please explain in detail why the book of Job exists.

“Now those men or those women who know no more about the powers of God and the influences of the Holy Spirit than to be led entirely by another person suspending their own understanding and pinning their faith upon another’s sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory to be crowned as they anticipate. They never will be capable of becoming Gods.” (Brigham Young, J.D. 1:312)

“Let every man and woman know themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates or not. This has been my exhortation continually.” (Brigham Young, J.D. 9:150)

“Without revelation direct from heaven it is impossible for any person to understand fully the plan of salvation. We often hear it said that the living Oracles must be in the Church in order that the Kingdom of God may be established and prosper on the earth. I will give another version of this sentiment. I say that the living Oracles of God, or the Spirit of revelation must be in each and every individual, to know the plan of salvation and keep in the path that leads them to the presence of God.” (Disc. of Brigham Young, p. 58)

“The time has arrived in the history of this people when every Latter-day Saint must stand on his own responsibility as a tub stands on its own bottom; live the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to the dictates of his own conscience and get the reward; otherwise he must suffer the consequences.” (Joseph F. Smith, Sept. 1903, Truth, Nov. 1, 1936, 2:6, p. 88)

“When new revelation ceases to be given officers cease to be called of God.” (Orson Pratt’s Works, p. 40)

“And when the spirit of persecution, the spirit of hatred, of wrath and malice ceases in the world against this people, it will be the time that this people have apostatized and joined hands with the wicked.” (Brigham Young, J.D. 4:327)

“…when all the chief features of the Gospel are obliterated, when we can float along the stream and do as the world does, then and not till then will persecution cease….” (George Q. Cannon, J.D. 22:374)

“If the time or condition should ever come to pass that a man, possessing human weaknesses, shall lead the Church, woe be to the Church; for it will then become like the churches of the world, man-made and man-led, and have no power of God or of life eternal and salvation connected with it; only the wisdom, the judgment and intelligence of man.” (Gospel Doctrine, J.F. Smith, p. 138)

“Now, concerning endowment, in all its phases. My own views are these–that we ought to follow out, as far as we can, the pattern laid down by our leaders. I consider that if there ever was any man who thoroughly understood the principles of the Endowments it was Brigham Young. He was with Joseph Smith from the beginning of the Endowments, to the end, and he understood it if any man did. Now, if I ever have anything to do or say, in any Temple on the earth, concerning the Endowment, I would say: Follow that pattern that President Young has set to us, and not deviate one iota.” (Pres. Wilford Woodruff in a letter of June 8, 1887, from St. George, Utah.)

Art Vandelay wrote: ↑January 30th, 2020, 10:35 am Here's another Brigham quote-
The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and he will never suffer you to be led astray if you are found doing your duty. You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a babe in its mother’s arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you astray, for if they should try to do so the Lord would quickly sweep them from the earth. Your leaders are trying to live their religion as far as they are capable of doing so (DBY, 137).

Is that quote authentic? John A Widstoe made quite a few changes to Brigham's words from the journal of discourses. For example he edited out all references to Adam-God.

Do you have a reference for this quote directly from the journal of discourses?

Matthias wrote: ↑January 31st, 2020, 7:53 pm

Art Vandelay wrote: ↑January 30th, 2020, 10:35 am Here's another Brigham quote-
The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and he will never suffer you to be led astray if you are found doing your duty. You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a babe in its mother’s arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you astray, for if they should try to do so the Lord would quickly sweep them from the earth. Your leaders are trying to live their religion as far as they are capable of doing so (DBY, 137).

Is that quote authentic? John A Widstoe made quite a few changes to Brigham's words from the journal of discourses. For example he edited out all references to Adam-God.

Do you have a reference for this quote directly from the journal of discourses?

I have no idea if it's authentic or not, I don't really live my life with that kind of blind faith that some interpret the quote to mean. I've not seen anything from any prophet that has lead me astray as of yet. Today the Prophet has asked us to study the Book of Mormon. We've enjoyed a lot of time as a family following what the Prophet has asked us to do. If he asks us not to read and study the Book of Mormon then I suspect I'd be more open to a conversation about how the Prophet is leading us astray with regards to what Brigham said. Prophets are people too and as such they make mistakes but not enough to set the church on the path of leading us astray. It seems that we stray when we don't follow the Prophets. I have family who fit that description but I won't get into it on this thread.

Art Vandelay wrote: ↑January 31st, 2020, 8:22 pm

Matthias wrote: ↑January 31st, 2020, 7:53 pm

Art Vandelay wrote: ↑January 30th, 2020, 10:35 am Here's another Brigham quote-
The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and he will never suffer you to be led astray if you are found doing your duty. You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a babe in its mother’s arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you astray, for if they should try to do so the Lord would quickly sweep them from the earth. Your leaders are trying to live their religion as far as they are capable of doing so (DBY, 137).

Is that quote authentic? John A Widstoe made quite a few changes to Brigham's words from the journal of discourses. For example he edited out all references to Adam-God.

Do you have a reference for this quote directly from the journal of discourses?

I have no idea if it's authentic or not, I don't really live my life with that kind of blind faith that some interpret the quote to mean. I've not seen anything from any prophet that has lead me astray as of yet. Today the Prophet has asked us to study the Book of Mormon. We've enjoyed a lot of time as a family following what the Prophet has asked us to do. If he asks us not to read and study the Book of Mormon then I suspect I'd be more open to a conversation about how the Prophet is leading us astray with regards to what Brigham said. Prophets are people too and as such they make mistakes but not enough to set the church on the path of leading us astray. It seems that we stray when we don't follow the Prophets. I have family who fit that description but I won't get into it on this thread.

I did find the original quote in the Journal of Discourses just now.

"The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and he will never suffer you to be led astray if you are found doing your
duty. You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a babe in its mother's arms, as to any danger of your leaders
leading you astray, for if they should try to do so the Lord would quickly sweep them from the earth. Your leaders are trying to live their religion as far as I am capable of doing so? Yes, I do. The power of God is with me continually, and I never mean to live an hour without it."
JD 9:289, Brigham Young, February 23, 1862

It's interesting that the original quote ends in a question mark, followed by the phrase "I do."

It looks like there is some issue with how this quote was originally recorded or transcribed, as there is a question and an answer, but the phrase preceding the answer is not worded as a question. Strange...

I think we can safely conclude that either Brigham was giving his opinion and not speaking authoritatively, or the quote itself may not have been written down quite right.

In my opinion Brigham Young knew that the power of God was with him and was of the opinion that the power of God was also with the other leaders at that time. I don't believe he was making a declaration that the at no point in the future could the leaders lead the members astray.

I get what you're saying, though.

I guess it depends on what we consider leading the people astray to be.

Does it include changing the temple ordinances?

Does it include downgrading abortion from being murder to something less than that and making several allowances for it?

Does it include giving blacks the priesthood when the scriptures and previous Church presidents had said this was forbidden and wouldn't happen until after the millennium?

Does it include removing the stigma of apostasy from openly practicing Sodomites in the church?

Does it include abandoning the Lord's method for doing missionary work without purse or scrip?

These are but 5 issues. At least 50 more things like this could be added to this short list.

Luke wrote: ↑January 30th, 2020, 9:22 am Since you were all moaning yesterday about how the quote I posted was a 'fake quote' (which it isn't, but that's besides the point), here's another quote to illustrate my point, I've even cited it for you:

"And when the spirit of persecution, the spirit of hatred, of wrath, and malice ceases in the world against this people, it will be the time that this people have apostatized and joined hands with the wicked, and never until then; which I pray may never come." (Journal of Discourses 4:327)

Essentially, what I am saying is that we have collectively apostatised and joined hands with the wicked, this is blatant, hence we are accepted by the world. The Book of Mormon musical isn't persecution, nor hatred, nor wrath, nor malice, it's just pathetic joking and that should be obvious. We live like the world, we live among them, etc...

The lack of persecution is actually a bad thing. It shows that we've become exactly like the world and that we have collectively rejected the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. As the Saviour said, "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:10) I don't see much persecution, I only see us holding hands with Babylon, and who can deny it?

It's hard to teach this concept because of the 'All is Well in Zion' mantra we hear a lot. In fact, we are riddled with these false traditions of men which the Book of Mormon constantly warns us of. Joseph Smith said people would "fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all." (TPJS, pg. 331) If you try and teach people the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, you get called an apostate, evil, etc...

My message to everyone is that we should not rely on the arm of flesh, only the Saviour. Trust in Christ only, for Christ is the only foundation upon which we CANNOT fall. Any other foundation (yes, including mortal men), is unstable and will prove our destruction. I don't say this to demean the Church and attack the Lord's anointed, I've been through this already. But we have to learn to rely on Christ only, to truly understand the Gospel and to not fall for false traditions. Study his Gospel, for it's not boring, it's actually very exciting and enjoyable to learn and grasp. It's a truly beautiful thing. Yes, it's sad to see so many fall for false traditions and to be caught up in the corporateness of everything, but Salvation is an indivudual affair and we just have to make sure we are worthy, and try our best to truly convert others. Be ready for that end-time Servant and the great last-days work he will perform, I testify he IS coming. This is what we have to do, because that great test that Heber C. Kimball kept banging on about is coming, and ''Who will be able to stand?" Gain a sure and undeniable knowledge that Jesus IS the Christ, learn the true fulness of his Gospel, and be ready for the great last-days work, I beg of you all. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen and Amen.

Absolutely completely agree with this. We are sleepwalking into a wokist nightmare and we're loving every minute of it. All is well in Zion, yea Zion prospereth.

Matthias wrote: ↑January 31st, 2020, 8:49 pm
I guess it depends on what we consider leading the people astray to be.

Does it include changing the temple ordinances?

Does it include downgrading abortion from being murder to something less than that and making several allowances for it?

Does it include giving blacks the priesthood when the scriptures and previous Church presidents had said this was forbidden and wouldn't happen until after the millennium?

Does it include removing the stigma of apostasy from openly practicing Sodomites in the church?

Does it include abandoning the Lord's method for doing missionary work without purse or scrip?

These are but 5 issues. At least 50 more things like this could be added to this short list.

I don't consider those things as leading us astray. As imperfect people like the rest of us, prophets have their own ideas about things too. Things kind of ebb and flow from prophet to prophet but the path is still quite narrow and defined. I get frustrated with what I sometimes see as double speak from the church especially lately with homosexuality. However, a few months ago Pres. Nelson laid it down at a BYU talk he gave. The doctrine was made clear no matter if gay people can participate at BYU without regard for punishment but grow a beard and you're in trouble. Yeah, that stuff irritates me but I'm not lead astray.