LDS Freedom Forum

I am surprised how there's been so much attention and concern about the Lamanite curse recently, but I'm also surprised at the church's reaction to it. The official position now is that we are reading the Book of Mormon incorrectly. It wasn't really a curse of a skin of darkness. That never happened. Words don't mean what they mean.

I get that we all are uncomfortable with the notion that God would curse someone with black skin, and I know that has been the justification for all sorts of racism in the church. But I don't think the answer is to deny what the scriptures actually say.

In fact, the scriptures do not say all black people are cursed, or are lazy, or less righteous. The Book of Mormon was only talking about the Lamanites at that time. And how did it end up for the Nephites and Lamanites? The Nephites became more wicked than the Lamanites and were wiped out. It's pretty clear that the Lord is no respecter of persons.

But rather than acknowledging what the Book of Mormon actually says, we now are going to deny the meaning of words. This is very dangerous territory. This gets into a crazy situation where we can deny anything or claim anything because we can just change what words mean. This is a favorite thing of dictators and cult leaders and people doing mind tricks to control people.

You can't just read the Book of Mormon anymore (or conference talks or other scriptures). You need a companion to tell you what words mean, and they could be anything. I'm not talking about imagery in Isaiah. I'm talking about straightforward sentences.

Perhaps the church will come out with a Book of Mormon manual that explains what it really is saying. Otherwise I guess we will just never know.

Trucker wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 1:19 amPerhaps the church will come out with a Book of Mormon manual that explains what it really is saying. Otherwise I guess we will just never know.

Maybe you’re implying this already, but how about we use our brains & the Spirit & figure it out ourselves!!! Gasp!!!! The nerve of some people!

I do believe that there is racial prejudice in the Book of Mormon, among other evils, but also a lot of good. The problem is that this book has been made into an idol - while neglecting Christ’s teachings in the NT. This and the false teachings like every other religious group is so inferior & the church/people are either 100% true or 100% false, causes many upon discovering problems, to throw out religion entirely, rather than continue to seek Christ.

The Book of Mormon makes us unique. In marketing it offer$ more than the competitors have. But any false god will let you down, so in that sense, this is a good thing to help people worship God above man.

But what were the "plates" that Nephi got? Who knows.

And when they went into the "wilderness", maybe that was just a form of social isolation, and not really leaving Jerusalem.

And Nephi "built" a "boat", but maybe that was just assembling a team of experts to help him achieve a spiritual state within us called the "Promised Land."

Who knows, right?

I hate to burst any bubbles, but already, people ought to understand that scriptures are NOT sociology, history or scientific books to be taken literally. They are attempts by FALLIBLE humans to write about spiritual things. Archaeologically and anthropologically, there simply isn’t much lending to taking it as historical or literal. Yet, again, the purpose was NOT to be teaching history etc.

• ”for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.” - 2 Corinthians 3:6

Still, I imagine what you and others may be thinking is, “this is just a politically-correct move. How can we trust people who twist scripture meanings?” Maybe it’d be better if it was simply acknowledged as wrong. A human being made a mistake! Is that so hard to admit?

Thinker wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 1:58 am I hate to burst any bubbles, but already, people ought to understand that scriptures are NOT sociology, history or scientific books to be taken literally. They are attempts by FALLIBLE humans to write about spiritual things. Archaeologically and anthropologically, there simply isn’t much lending to taking it as historical or literal. Yet, again, the purpose was NOT to be teaching history etc.

• ”for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.” - 2 Corinthians 3:6

Still, I imagine what you and others may be thinking is, “this is just a politically-correct move. How can we trust people who twist scripture meanings?” Maybe it’d be better if it was simply acknowledged as wrong. A human being made a mistake! Is that so hard to admit?

Who made what mistake?

Thinker wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 1:58 am I hate to burst any bubbles, but already, people ought to understand that scriptures are NOT sociology, history or scientific books to be taken literally. They are attempts by FALLIBLE humans to write about spiritual things. Archaeologically and anthropologically, there simply isn’t much lending to taking it as historical or literal. Yet, again, the purpose was NOT to be teaching history etc.

• ”for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.” - 2 Corinthians 3:6

Still, I imagine what you and others may be thinking is, “this is just a politically-correct move. How can we trust people who twist scripture meanings?” Maybe it’d be better if it was simply acknowledged as wrong. A human being made a mistake! Is that so hard to admit?

At the start of every BoM video it says, "based on actual events."

The BoM is a history book first, before anything else.

mes5464 wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 8:41 am

Thinker wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 1:58 am I hate to burst any bubbles, but already, people ought to understand that scriptures are NOT sociology, history or scientific books to be taken literally. They are attempts by FALLIBLE humans to write about spiritual things. Archaeologically and anthropologically, there simply isn’t much lending to taking it as historical or literal. Yet, again, the purpose was NOT to be teaching history etc.

• ”for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.” - 2 Corinthians 3:6

Still, I imagine what you and others may be thinking is, “this is just a politically-correct move. How can we trust people who twist scripture meanings?” Maybe it’d be better if it was simply acknowledged as wrong. A human being made a mistake! Is that so hard to admit?

At the start of every BoM video it says, "based on actual events."

The BoM is a history book first, before anything else.

The larger plates are more of a history. This small abridged group of writings are primarily for our spiritual benefit, rather than to understand a culture or history of people. The history of the Book of Mormon is to show what “great things the lord hath done” for the Native American remnant ancestors. The purpose of the book is to pursuade is to come unto Christ.
So yes. It’s a history. But a history of spiritual things.

Thinker wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 1:58 am I hate to burst any bubbles, but already, people ought to understand that scriptures are NOT sociology, history or scientific books to be taken literally. They are attempts by FALLIBLE humans to write about spiritual things. Archaeologically and anthropologically, there simply isn’t much lending to taking it as historical or literal. Yet, again, the purpose was NOT to be teaching history etc.

• ”for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.” - 2 Corinthians 3:6

Still, I imagine what you and others may be thinking is, “this is just a politically-correct move. How can we trust people who twist scripture meanings?” Maybe it’d be better if it was simply acknowledged as wrong. A human being made a mistake! Is that so hard to admit?

Thinker, I would clarify your wording a bit to say:

"Although some scriptures are taken literally and some figuratively, scriptures are not primarily history books. They are attempts by fallible but frequently inspired people to record histories of their day and to record doctrines to persuade people to come to Christ." All fixed!

I tasted of the fruit that says Nephi was wrong. I was in error. That fruit was poisonous to the soul. Then yesterday while searching for something related to a topic I created, I came upon a paper titled "The Political Dimension in Nephi's Small Plates." You can check it out here: https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... text=byusq

It would be fair to say that Reynolds' paper blew my mind. Nephi was so politically astute that it would be hard to disbelieve any of his words again. In fact, I now hold Nephi in such high regard that if we have differences I will have to stop and think what my error is.

Yes, I'm making God's word through Nephi to be my God. And I'm unashamed in doing so.

Thinker wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 1:43 am

Trucker wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 1:19 amPerhaps the church will come out with a Book of Mormon manual that explains what it really is saying. Otherwise I guess we will just never know.

Maybe you’re implying this already, but how about we use our brains & the Spirit & figure it out ourselves!!! Gasp!!!! The nerve of some people!

I do believe that there is racial prejudice in the Book of Mormon, among other evils, but also a lot of good. The problem is that this book has been made into an idol - while neglecting Christ’s teachings in the NT. This and the false teachings like every other religious group is so inferior & the church/people are either 100% true or 100% false, causes many upon discovering problems, to throw out religion entirely, rather than continue to seek Christ.

The Book of Mormon makes us unique. In marketing it offer$ more than the competitors have. But any false god will let you down, so in that sense, this is a good thing to help people worship God above man.

Thinker....you are not honest in your discussion when talking about scriptures. I don't think you do this consciously....but nevertheless...

You don't don't believe in the New Testament, you believe only in select parts of the NT, which YOU deem worthy. You cherry pick and then claim any who don't eat only the same cherries as you do, are neglecting the words of Jesus Christ. Jesus will say one thing and you'll claim that it's actually corrupt men who said it....then.... the next verse, Jesus will say something and you'll claim it was Jesus who said it. Do you see the fallacy? You rely own your own understanding....your own thinking

Feel free to believe what you will, but stop presenting your opinions as facts...its extremely off putting

You're not bursting bubbles. We believe the Book of Mormon to be a historical account. We believe the Book of Mormon is Jesus Christ.

I would stake my life on Book of Mormon being the true words of Jesus Christ.

I'm shocked that a member of the 12 would disavow the historical account of the Book of Mormon. I would respect him more if he just said he didn't believe Nephi......BUT TO TRY AND CHANGE THE PLAINNESS OF THE BoM IS DEVILISH. imo
Way to creat cracks it the works of Jesus Christ. ...

Trucker wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 8:35 am Who made what mistake?

We all make all kinds of mistakes regularly. But I was referring to whoever wrote, claiming skin color reflected righteousness, in the Book of Mormon. And I suppose another mistake was trying to cover up the other mistake.

mes5464 wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 8:41 am At the start of every BoM video it says, "based on actual events.”

Oh, the video says that?

The Book of Mormon’s 1st page says:

• ”An Account Written by the Hand of Mormon upon plates taken from the plates of Nephi Translated by Joseph Smith, Jun.

Sounds like he said she said his-story but what is the actual purpose? Do we study this to be tested on history dates - or are they spiritual books that are meant to be likened symbolically to us? Unbiased anthropologists and archeologists don’t acknowledge this as historical. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t true spiritually.

On that page it also warns of what we’re discussing:

• ..if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God”

Good advise, implying not to trust in any fallible writers - including those of scriptures.

AZRob wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 9:42 am Thinker, I would clarify your wording a bit to say:

Ah, so you’re pulling a GA trick in changing words!

I tasted of the fruit that says Nephi was wrong. I was in error. That fruit was poisonous to the soul...

Yes, I'm making God's word through Nephi to be my God. And I'm unashamed in doing so.

This brings up something significantly common: cognitive dissonance and deifying the church/Book of Mormon above God.

Many people live their entire lives with that, but for me, I sensed my faith foundation was weak & wouldn’t survive, and I just couldn’t turn from truth no matter how uncomfortable - my conscious wouldn’t allow it.

nightlight wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 1:11 pm Thinker....you are not honest in your discussion when talking about scriptures. I don't think you do this consciously....but nevertheless...

You don't don't believe in the New Testament, you believe only in select parts of the NT, which YOU deem worthy. You cherry pick and then claim any who don't eat only the same cherries as you do, are neglecting the words of Jesus Christ. Jesus will say one thing and you'll claim that it's actually corrupt men who said it....then.... the next verse, Jesus will say something and you'll claim it was Jesus who said it. Do you see the fallacy? You rely own your own understanding....your own thinking

Feel free to believe what you will, but stop presenting your opinions as facts...its extremely off putting

You're not bursting bubbles. We believe the Book of Mormon to be a historical account. We believe the Book of Mormon is Jesus Christ.

Sometimes I’m blunt - I apologize for not stating things more compassionately. I know I need to work on that. Still, NightLight, you and many others on this forum state their opinions firmly as if facts. Testimony meetings are filled with repeated “I know...” And you’re right in implying I don’t really know - but neither do you. And I’m not going to state “in my opinion” every time I post because it’s self evident - it’s coming from me! You bringing this up as if it’s a problem makes me wonder if you don’t know what you know and worry that anyone that has thought it through more might rock your shaky foundation. If that’s not true, I apologize but would like to know why you keep basically telling me to “shut up.”

You bring up a good point that is one I’ve wondered about also. It doesn’t take much research to realize how the Bible canon was decided so much by votes, excommunicating unpopular ideas etc., by the Catholic crusading (killing in the name of Christianity) church.

I may have shared Thomas Jefferson’s thoughts about this corruption of Christ’s teachings...



I’m learning but I’m still not always sure how to distinguish “diamonds from dung.”

mes5464 wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 8:41 am The BoM is a history book first, before anything else.

I'd rather say it's a narrative. But every historical account is a narrative, because it's impossible to objectively document every single thing that happened. Anyone who writes a history has to decide what to include, emphasize and leave out. And Nephi even gave us the purpose of his narrative right at the beginning on 1 Nephi.

And then, of course, there's the saying:
“The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.” -- L.P. Hartley

Thinker wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 2:32 pm

nightlight wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 1:11 pm Thinker....you are not honest in your discussion when talking about scriptures. I don't think you do this consciously....but nevertheless...

You don't don't believe in the New Testament, you believe only in select parts of the NT, which YOU deem worthy. You cherry pick and then claim any who don't eat only the same cherries as you do, are neglecting the words of Jesus Christ. Jesus will say one thing and you'll claim that it's actually corrupt men who said it....then.... the next verse, Jesus will say something and you'll claim it was Jesus who said it. Do you see the fallacy? You rely own your own understanding....your own thinking

Feel free to believe what you will, but stop presenting your opinions as facts...its extremely off putting

You're not bursting bubbles. We believe the Book of Mormon to be a historical account. We believe the Book of Mormon is Jesus Christ.

Sometimes I’m blunt - I apologize for not stating things more compassionately. I know I need to work on that. Still, NightLight, you and many others on this forum state their opinions firmly as if facts. Testimony meetings are filled with repeated “I know...” And you’re right in implying I don’t really know - but neither do you. And I’m not going to state “in my opinion” every time I post because it’s self evident - it’s coming from me! You bringing this up as if it’s a problem makes me wonder if you don’t know what you know and worry that anyone that has thought it through more might rock your shaky foundation. If that’s not true, I apologize but would like to know why you keep basically telling me to “shut up.”

You bring up a good point that is one I’ve wondered about also. It doesn’t take much research to realize how the Bible canon was decided so much by votes, excommunicating unpopular ideas etc., by the Catholic crusading (killing in the name of Christianity) church.

I may have shared Thomas Jefferson’s thoughts about this corruption of Christ’s teachings...



I’m learning but I’m still not always sure how to distinguish “diamonds from dung.”

I want you to see what I see...my attempts my be clumsy...but toddlers learn to walk straight eventually

You can think it's because I'm insecure in my belief....I get how one could come to this conclusion, but it's because I've received a witness that Jesus paid for us....it really does kill me when people don't see this. I want you to know Jesus Christ is God.

I understand I don't know, that I operate on faith...I'm not as they brother of Jared yet. I will be though.

I'll stop asking you to point out that you're speaking your opinions when speaking your thoughts....People do this to me too, my bad...it's anyoning. It just seems you've closed the door to main theme of the scriptures....so....I try to remind you that it's your opinion....that you could be wrong.

AZRob wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 9:42 am

Thinker wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 1:58 am I hate to burst any bubbles, but already, people ought to understand that scriptures are NOT sociology, history or scientific books to be taken literally. They are attempts by FALLIBLE humans to write about spiritual things. Archaeologically and anthropologically, there simply isn’t much lending to taking it as historical or literal. Yet, again, the purpose was NOT to be teaching history etc.

• ”for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.” - 2 Corinthians 3:6

Still, I imagine what you and others may be thinking is, “this is just a politically-correct move. How can we trust people who twist scripture meanings?” Maybe it’d be better if it was simply acknowledged as wrong. A human being made a mistake! Is that so hard to admit?

Thinker, I would clarify your wording a bit to say:

"Although some scriptures are taken literally and some figuratively, scriptures are not primarily history books. They are attempts by fallible but frequently inspired people to record histories of their day and to record doctrines to persuade people to come to Christ." All fixed!

I tasted of the fruit that says Nephi was wrong. I was in error. That fruit was poisonous to the soul. Then yesterday while searching for something related to a topic I created, I came upon a paper titled "The Political Dimension in Nephi's Small Plates." You can check it out here: https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/vie ... text=byusq

It would be fair to say that Reynolds' paper blew my mind. Nephi was so politically astute that it would be hard to disbelieve any of his words again. In fact, I now hold Nephi in such high regard that if we have differences I will have to stop and think what my error is.

Yes, I'm making God's word through Nephi to be my God. And I'm unashamed in doing so.

I’m seeing parallels between nephite vs lamanite politics and modern world politics. Ie victim vs responsible parties. Etc.

nightlight wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 1:11 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 1:43 am

Trucker wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 1:19 amPerhaps the church will come out with a Book of Mormon manual that explains what it really is saying. Otherwise I guess we will just never know.

Maybe you’re implying this already, but how about we use our brains & the Spirit & figure it out ourselves!!! Gasp!!!! The nerve of some people!

I do believe that there is racial prejudice in the Book of Mormon, among other evils, but also a lot of good. The problem is that this book has been made into an idol - while neglecting Christ’s teachings in the NT. This and the false teachings like every other religious group is so inferior & the church/people are either 100% true or 100% false, causes many upon discovering problems, to throw out religion entirely, rather than continue to seek Christ.

The Book of Mormon makes us unique. In marketing it offer$ more than the competitors have. But any false god will let you down, so in that sense, this is a good thing to help people worship God above man.

Thinker....you are not honest in your discussion when talking about scriptures. I don't think you do this consciously....but nevertheless...

You don't don't believe in the New Testament, you believe only in select parts of the NT, which YOU deem worthy. You cherry pick and then claim any who don't eat only the same cherries as you do, are neglecting the words of Jesus Christ. Jesus will say one thing and you'll claim that it's actually corrupt men who said it....then.... the next verse, Jesus will say something and you'll claim it was Jesus who said it. Do you see the fallacy? You rely own your own understanding....your own thinking

Feel free to believe what you will, but stop presenting your opinions as facts...its extremely off putting

You're not bursting bubbles. We believe the Book of Mormon to be a historical account. We believe the Book of Mormon is Jesus Christ.

I’ve also noticed similar things about Thinker. I wonder how much thinking they actually do....

There were times when the Lamanites were righteous and the Nephites were very wicked, but their skin color didn't change back. If you take it that literally then the book of Mormon contradicts itself. It was a consequence of biology, it happens when groups separate. I might go chop a tree down on myself and be cursed of God but it's not a literally God's fault but the consequence of nature.

ori wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 3:14 pm I’ve also noticed similar things about Thinker. I wonder how much thinking they actually do....

It’s rude to speak about someone present - why didn’t you address ME, when you’re talking trash about me?

What exactly have I stated that is proven incorrect?
You haven’t addressed that, but just put me down. Why? Usually when people do that it’s because they take the truth to be hard so they try to “shoot the messenger.”

Thinker wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 1:53 pm

mes5464 wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 8:41 am At the start of every BoM video it says, "based on actual events.”

Oh, the video says that?

The Book of Mormon’s 1st page says:

• ”An Account Written by the Hand of Mormon upon plates taken from the plates of Nephi Translated by Joseph Smith, Jun.

Sounds like he said she said his-story but what is the actual purpose? Do we study this to be tested on history dates - or are they spiritual books that are meant to be likened symbolically to us? Unbiased anthropologists and archeologists don’t acknowledge this as historical. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t true spiritually.

On that page it also warns of what we’re discussing:

• ..if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God”

Good advise, implying not to trust in any fallible writers - including those of scriptures.

I think that's a pretty good position actually, that Nephi got it wrong. So did basically all the modern prophets of the church, but it started with Nephi.

I could accept that, if that's the "official" position. It also shows how we could get things wrong now too, or that other things have been wrong in the past. Neither position or consensus are guaranteers of truth.That's a great lesson IMO.

Trucker wrote: ↑January 25th, 2020, 4:07 am

Thinker wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 1:53 pm

mes5464 wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 8:41 am At the start of every BoM video it says, "based on actual events.”

Oh, the video says that?

The Book of Mormon’s 1st page says:

• ”An Account Written by the Hand of Mormon upon plates taken from the plates of Nephi Translated by Joseph Smith, Jun.

Sounds like he said she said his-story but what is the actual purpose? Do we study this to be tested on history dates - or are they spiritual books that are meant to be likened symbolically to us? Unbiased anthropologists and archeologists don’t acknowledge this as historical. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t true spiritually.

On that page it also warns of what we’re discussing:

• ..if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God”

Good advise, implying not to trust in any fallible writers - including those of scriptures.

I think that's a pretty good position actually, that Nephi got it wrong. So did basically all the modern prophets of the church, but it started with Nephi.

I could accept that, if that's the "official" position. It also shows how we could get things wrong now too, or that other things have been wrong in the past. Neither position or consensus are guaranteers of truth.That's a great lesson IMO.

Surely there stands a few paradigm shifts between us and the celestial kingdom. We don't come close to understanding God's ways.

Feel free to believe what you will, but stop presenting your opinions as facts...its extremely off putting

You're not bursting bubbles. We believe the Book of Mormon to be a historical account. We believe the Book of Mormon is Jesus Christ.

Perhaps you should take your own advice. And just to be clear, "I believe" or "I know" are not considered facts.

Thinker wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 8:51 pm

ori wrote: ↑January 24th, 2020, 3:14 pm I’ve also noticed similar things about Thinker. I wonder how much thinking they actually do....

It’s rude to speak about someone present - why didn’t you address ME, when you’re talking trash about me?

What exactly have I stated that is proven incorrect?
You haven’t addressed that, but just put me down. Why? Usually when people do that it’s because they take the truth to be hard so they try to “shoot the messenger.”

I apologize. I don’t care to refute any points you’ve stated. As you correctly pointed out, we are all free to share our opinions, it’s an opinion board.

And my opinion is that you are so very often quite wrong. But again, I don’t really mind you sharing your wrong opinions. So please continue doing as you please.

Trucker wrote: ↑January 25th, 2020, 4:07 am...It also shows how we could get things wrong now too, or that other things have been wrong in the past. Neither position or consensus are guaranteers of truth.That's a great lesson IMO.

Yeah, but it’s a tough lesson!
Who wants to admit to being wrong?

We all (theists and atheists alike) live by faith - without guarantees. Most of us develop faith in some incorrect things and it’s like having some of the legs of a table the wrong height, so when we try to put things on the table, things begin sliding off. We need to replace or fix the problematic legs, but we fear what will happen to all the stuff on the table as we try to fix it. So, many just don’t fix them and just go around insecure, subconsciously fearing the lack of solidarity will cause everything to crash down at any moment.

This is actually very serious, though my analogy may not make it seem so. Faith is extremely important - it can mean the difference of life or death spiritually and/or even physically when people lose hope. Yet, when faith is misguided, it can also lead to spiritual &/or physical death. Maybe that’s the main issue: not missing the mark in applying faith.

I’d say gratitude needs to be part of faith - because it’s something you can depend on - there’s always plenty to be grateful for. And humility is another.

• ”And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.” - Ether 12:27