LDS Freedom Forum

A lot of debate can be had from this question. What do you guys think? I've put down the usual as the options, tell me if any others should be added.

1 Nephi 14:11 ... and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

1 Nephi 14:14 I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord,..

D&C 10:67-68 67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

So We see that the Whore of all the earth is everywhere. It is among all people - including the LDS Church.

Nephi tells us the Power of the Lamb is upon the Saints (or will be) and "covenant people" (another distinction). A saint is one that has received the Gift of the Holy Ghost and been sanctified by it, by being born again. They are considered Holy and made Righteous by the blood of the Lamb.

THe Lord then gives us an answer in D&C 10 as to who His church, the Church of the Lamb, is. He says it is those that repent and come unto Him. If we are not in a state of repentance and coming unto HIm, then we are not of His church. D&C 84:47 teaches us that ...every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father. So to come unto Christ we must repent and hearken to the voice of the Spirit. If we do not these things, then we are not of His church. THat is my belief. All others are in the great and abominable church because they are yielding to the enticings of the devil and not the SPirit of God.

There are two churches only, The Church of the Lamb (which is NOT TCoJCoLS) and the Church of th devil. Anyone who has not been Spiritually begotten of Christ, which includes many in and out of the LDS church, belong to the great and abominable church. If you have not been redeemed from the fall than you are still of the world and fallen. Does not matter if you are a member of the LDS church. Membership in an organization does not make you a son or daughter of Christ.

I'm saying this as a matter of fact, it's really just what I feel strongly about and what I feel the Spirit has taught me. I don't have a perfect knowledge though so I could be wrong

Yep, what John and Hosh said

Who is the head of the G&A Church???

Great Conspiracy (Ether 8)

Yes...the G&A Church is Babylon. But there is a hierarchy among the children of Satan.

But hush, hush....our church doesn't like to talk about the Gadiantons anymore.

This gets confusing because I think the term is used differently in 1 Nephi 13 and 1 Nephi 14

In chapter 13, it is obviously referring to the Catholic church. I really can't see any way to understand this any differently given the time line and the actions ascribed to the church.

In chapter 14, it changes to include everything but the Church of the Lamb of God. At this point it is speaking of something more abstract than it was in Ch. 13.

Serragon wrote: ↑January 23rd, 2020, 12:15 pm This gets confusing because I think the term is used differently in 1 Nephi 13 and 1 Nephi 14

In chapter 13, it is obviously referring to the Catholic church. I really can't see any way to understand this any differently given the time line and the actions ascribed to the church.

In chapter 14, it changes to include everything but the Church of the Lamb of God. At this point it is speaking of something more abstract than it was in Ch. 13.

I think it's talking about the same thing. The formation of the Catholic church and it's actions would be a part of this Great Abominable church, but not the GA itself.

For example, If I told you about something Google did and in a separate story I told you something that Alphabet did, in both instances it was Alphabet. Google is just a subsidiary of Alphabet.

What big religions on this earth deny Jesus Christ as Savior of the world?
Business/Politics/Power Brokering is a religion with their own set of gods.

BTW... I watched a RedBox movie over last weekend called: "The Two Popes".
It was actually quite moving and showed that all religious leaders have challenges and are more human in many regards.
Now I know why President Nelson went and met with the Pope.

I believe the "official" definition of The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil is any organization that opposes Christ and His Church. I see that as a safe definition to enable the Church to avoid retribution and hindering of its missionary and building programs.

I think of it as a single organization by virtue of the fact that the word "The" is singular. My money is on the new world order conspiracy, which is comprised of the United Nations, the Council on Foreign Relations, The British Round Table Group, and other groups and individuals conspiring to establish a global government.

nephi kind of comes out and says it, the "whore of all the earth". identifying her would say a lot, but thats tough to do. her name is "mystery" after all.

It's obvious it's the RC Church (and her offspring).

John Tavner wrote: ↑January 23rd, 2020, 11:14 am 1 Nephi 14:11 ... and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

1 Nephi 14:14 I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord,..

D&C 10:67-68 67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

So We see that the Whore of all the earth is everywhere. It is among all people - including the LDS Church.

Nephi tells us the Power of the Lamb is upon the Saints (or will be) and "covenant people" (another distinction). A saint is one that has received the Gift of the Holy Ghost and been sanctified by it, by being born again. They are considered Holy and made Righteous by the blood of the Lamb.

THe Lord then gives us an answer in D&C 10 as to who His church, the Church of the Lamb, is. He says it is those that repent and come unto Him. If we are not in a state of repentance and coming unto HIm, then we are not of His church. D&C 84:47 teaches us that ...every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father. So to come unto Christ we must repent and hearken to the voice of the Spirit. If we do not these things, then we are not of His church. THat is my belief. All others are in the great and abominable church because they are yielding to the enticings of the devil and not the SPirit of God.

so true, thank you

taken from the internet.

quote

""Mormons generally believe that they are the Church of the Lamb of God referred to and all other religions are the church of the devil, but is this correct? "

""The Lord made a curious statement to Nephi which has never been correctly explained to my knowledge:"

“Behold, there are save two churches only; one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the Devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.” (I Nephi 14:10-11)

Mormons generally believe that they are the Church of the Lamb of God referred to and all other religions are the church of the devil, but is this correct? Nephi himself solves the mystery and tells us who it is that belongs to the church of the devil and interestingly, he does not name any particular religion:

“Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for THEY ARE THEY WHO ARE THE WHORE of all the earth: for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God.” (2 Nephi 10:16)

Could it really be that many of the LDS themselves make up part of the whore, or the great and abominable church? Yes. The scriptures clearly tell us that anyone that fights the establishment of Zion becomes a part of the whore, or the church of the devil. Else why did Nephi warn us: “And blessed are the Gentiles [The LDS], they of whom the prophet has written; for behold, if it so be that they shall repent and fight not against Zion, and do not unite themselves to that great and abominable church, they shall be saved.” (2 Nephi 6:12)

Since the Great and Abominable Church is composed of those who fight against Zion, we must ask the question, How does one fight against Zion? To understand let us examine some of the ingredients of which Zion will be composed.

When Zion is fully established, it will be an independent entity which will have “no laws but my laws.” (D&C 38:22)

It will be “independent above all other creatures beneath the celestial world.” (D&C 78:14)

Zion will support the principles of freedom and limited government in our Constitution which is for the “protection of all flesh”. (D&C 101: 77)

The saints were told to “buy lands and gather together upon them; and in this way they may establish Zion... . They shall gather together unto the places which I have appointed.” (D&C 101:74 & 67)

Each place where there was a gathering was to be a stake. A stake was not supposed to be 3,000 saints in the midst of a city of 50,000, but it was to be composed of an actual city of saints staked out around the central stake. These stakes are referred to as if the curtains or the strength of Zion.” (D&C 101:21)
“Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the celestial kingdom.” (D&C 105:5)

In Zion we are told that “it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherewith the world lieth in sin.” (D&C 50:20)

We are told that the Lord “called His people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.” (Moses 7:18)

How many are there in the Church today that actively work for the establishment of the above principles? Unfortunately, many have been excommunicated for doing so. Concerning those who are not for the principles of Christ, he said, “He that is not with me is against me.” (Matt. 12:30)

We are told that the natural man is an enemy to God, and the natural man does indeed rebel against the establishment of Zion. He does not want to gather out of Babylon and be separate from the world for he loves the world. He does not want to be equal in earthly things for he wants to be above his brother. He seeks to rely upon the arm of flesh rather than receive personal revelation. This person whether Mormon or not, who pits his will against Zion, belongs to the church of the devil. The number is legion for many who are for Zion in word are against it in deed.

On the other hand, many non-Mormons belong to the Church of the Lamb of God. These are they who have the fire of freedom burning in their breasts. They believe that all men should have the freedom to worship as they please so long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. They do not believe in establishing an authority for every decision for the final authority is the human spirit in communication with God.

The number of these people are few, and many of them are not members of the Church and some of them are inactive members who would participate if the Church were in order. These freedom loving people who live harmless lives and do many good things of their own free will are the true members of the Church of the Lamb of God even if they presently live in far off Russia or India. The cause of Zion is in the soul of many who have not yet heard the word, for it is written in their hearts.

One of the marks of the Great and Abominable Church is the practice of priestcraft and Nephi gives us a clear insight as to the definition thereof: “He commanded that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion ... . Wherefore if they should have charity they would not suffer the laborer in Zion to perish.” (2 Nephi 26:29-30)

Is there priestcraft in the Church today? Are there those who set themselves up for a light that others must follow or suffer the consequences?

One may answer yes, but at the same time question that this is no more the case today than it was in the days of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. But is there a difference in the attitude of the authorities today compared with the early days?

If you study the history of the Church, you will note a quite remarkable difference; the main one being the suffocation and strangulation in individual expression, freedom, and spiritual gifts in the Church today.

In 1843 the High Council was quite concerned about the teachings of a certain Elder named Pelatiah Brown even though Joseph Smith called him “one of the wisest old heads we have among us.” He was called up for trial for teaching mysteries not yet revealed. Of this Joseph Smith said, “I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodists, and not like the Latter-Day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.” (DHC 5:340)

It is interesting to note that today the Methodists allow greater freedom of thought, whereas the Latter-Day Saints are the ones who ask those whom they believe are erring in doctrine out of the Church.

Let’s examine several other statements of Joseph Smith:

“I stated that the most prominent difference between the Latter-Day Saints and sectarians was, that the latter were all circumscribed by some peculiar creed, which deprived its members the privilege of believing anything not contained therein, whereas the Latter- day Saints have no creed, but are ready to believe all true principles that exist as they are manifest from time to time.” (DHC 5: 215)

“I told him I had no creed to circumscribe my mind; therefore the people did not like me.” (DHC 5:214)

“I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things; but the creeds set up stakes, and say, ‘Hitherto shalt thou come; and no further,’ which I cannot subscribe to.” (DHC 6:57)

Brigham Young spoke in a similar vein:

“If they have not yet undivided feelings, they will be chastened until they have them; not only until every one of them shall see for themselves, and prophecy for themselves, have visions for themselves, but be made acquainted with all the principles and laws necessary for them to know, so as to supersede the necessity of anyone teaching them. Is not the time to come when I shall not say to my neighbor, know the Lord, for he will know him as well as I do?” (J. of D. 3: 89)

Notice how Joseph Smith tried to avoid setting himself up as a light above his brethren: “I explained to him that I did not profess to be a prophet any more than every man ought to who professes to be a preacher of righteousness.” (DHC 5:232)

Why did the Lord say, “My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge ... the people that doth not understand shall fall.” (Hosea 4:6 & 14)

Notice that the Lord tells us that the people must understand. It is not enough to pin our faith on the sleeve of the leaders. Knowing this, the early prophets tried to inspire the people to be as good or better than they were. It is a great temptation for those placed in a leadership position to believe that God has chosen them for an authority rather than a servant. Many of these try to extinguish the lesser lights around them so all the light these little minds have is the radiation from the arm of flesh.

On the contrary, God has ordained that we all share the great light of God who is our source and eventually become great lights ourselves.

Yes, there is a difference in the leadership of the Latter-Day Saints today. Today they say, “Hitherto shalt thou come and no further.” You can believe the works of Joseph Fielding Smith, Talmage, and LeGrande Richards, but if you get a different interpretation out of the scriptures, you must stop and repent or get out.

Today the church does have a creed. It is the creed of the modern authorities of the Church which is essentially this: “The Brethren will never lead you astray. Do not think for yourself, but follow to the letter and think as you are told or get out.” Modern Mormons are circumscribed by this and the result is the present very low, almost nonexistent degree of spiritual manifestations in the Church.

As mentioned earlier, my nephew (and later myself) was called in by his bishop and excommunicated by the High Council within about a week because he believed the scriptures above the opinions of the modern authorities. The Doctrine and Covenants tells us that the High Council is supposed to be split so half of them defend the person on trial, but they were all one voice against him. He had no defense. One of the reasons was that a visiting general authority told the High Council to cut him off before the trial was held. Yea, even the wicked have greater justice in their hearts than this!

In speaking of those who practice priestcraft, Nephi said, “They seek not the welfare of Zion ... . Wherefore, if they should have charity they would not suffer the laborer in Zion to perish.” (2 Nephi 26:29-30)

Who is the “laborer in Zion”? Obviously he is one who is laboring for the cause of Zion and Nephi prophesies that the priestcrafters will cause such laborers to perish. Now these priestcrafters could not be Catholics or Baptists for they have had no laborers for Zion, for they do not even teach of it, so the prophecy can only refer to priestcraft within the church that has the Book of Mormon.

What does the laborer in Zion do? He works to establish celestial principles which are equality through free will, the gathering of Israel, he seeks for revelation from heaven, he seeks the mysteries of the kingdom of God, he seeks to enlighten his fellow men and women, and what happens to such a one? He is “frowned” on by the authorities and if he persists laboring for Zion, he is cut off.

After he is cut off, the atmosphere becomes so heavy between him and his member friends, that he makes no attempt to even go to the mainstream church and often winds up attending some fringe group who will at least receive him. Thus, the laborer in Zion perished and had to travel a strange path."

end quote

Robin Hood wrote: ↑January 23rd, 2020, 2:44 pm It's obvious it's the RC Church (and her offspring).

Yup

Duane Crowther, presents a convincing case.

Costly apparel , but not casual suits. dbnp

From this weeks “Come Follow Me”
1 Nephi 13:1–9; 14:9–11
What is the “great and abominable church” that Nephi saw?
Elder Dallin H. Oaks explained that the “great and abominable church” described by Nephi represents “any philosophy or organization that opposes belief in God. And the ‘captivity’ into which this ‘church’ seeks to bring the saints will not be so much physical confinement as the captivity of false ideas” (“Stand as Witnesses of God,” Ensign, Mar. 2015, 32).

Any institution, person or teaching that leads one to God is OF The Church of the Lamb. Any person, institution or teaching that leads one to worship anything other than God is OF the Church of the Devil.
A "true" church would contain 100% of the former and 0% of the latter.
A church that is growing towards trueness would embrace truth "wherever it may be found."
A church that is growing away from trueness would become rigid, doctrinaire, and claim "A Bible! A Bible! We have a Bible and need no more Bible!" (or "A Book of Mormon!...etc.)

The Roman Catholics are easy targets because they had the plain and precious truths and they altered it to suit their customs and desires.
Few there are that are not living in glass houses and are able to throw stones without hazard.

The Jesuits

From the description in the Book of Mormon it is very clear that it is referring to the Roman Catholic Church and it's offspring. I know that's not a popular view in these woke infested times, but it's clearly the case.

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑January 23rd, 2020, 11:22 am There are two churches only, The Church of the Lamb (which is NOT TCoJCoLS) and the Church of th devil. Anyone who has not been Spiritually begotten of Christ, which includes many in and out of the LDS church, belong to the great and abominable church. If you have not been redeemed from the fall than you are still of the world and fallen. Does not matter if you are a member of the LDS church. Membership in an organization does not make you a son or daughter of Christ.

I'm saying this as a matter of fact, it's really just what I feel strongly about and what I feel the Spirit has taught me. I don't have a perfect knowledge though so I could be wrong

While it's true that you could be wrong, it's probable that you are right

Mike

Starting in 1 Nephi 12 thru 14 is a prophecy which is still future. What happened around the year 400 AD to the Nephites (the believers) was just a type and shadow to what is going to happen.

14:9 And it came to pass that he saith unto me, Look, and beheld that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose foundation is the devil.

14:10 And he saith unto me, Behold, there is, save it be, two churches: the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the Devil; wherefore. whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God, belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

14:11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

This church in this phase is yet future. People give the Catholic church too much credit. Yes, it was very powerful and did spread to a large part of the earth and yet it never fulfilled or will it ever fulfill, "and she had dominion over all the earth". Whatever church this is it becomes all powerful politically in that it becomes the actual one world government that we know is coming. This can only happen if a supernaturally powerful personage becomes the leader of it and makes it happen. In that day there will be essentially only two churches. Those that have the testimony of the man of sin that leads the church and those that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Christ, the remnant.

This church most abominable has a time that it will be founded.

13:1 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me saying, look! And I looked and beheld many nations and kingdoms.

13:2 And the angel saith unto me, what beholdest thou? And I said I behold many nations and kingdoms.

13:3 And he saith unto me, these are the nations and kingdoms of the Gentiles.

13:4 And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles, the foundation of a great church.

The Catholic church had its start in the Roman Empire. And for hundreds of years it remained only in the Roman Empire. The church in 1 Nephi starts and quickly spreads to many other nations essentially forming in many nations from its beginning. The Roman Catholic church formed completely in only one nation.

13:5 And the angel said unto me, Behold the foundation of a church, which is most abominable above all churches, which slayeth the Saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.

The Catholic church did do some horrific things in history but it never fulfilled the above passage. The church that will fulfill the above passage will have to have a way to actually "bindeth" people "down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron". It is a binding that when the supernaturally powerful "man of sin" leader of the future church takes over is binding because the congregation of said church entered into some form of legalistic agreement with said church. They will of course believe that they are of the true church and that there leader is the Christ.

So this abominable church that 'legalistically binds' its members starts and quickly spreads to many nations even while in its early years of formation. And it is somehow started by the devil.

13:6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil, that he was the founder of it.

That means that the prophet that starts said church has to be the false prophet of Revelation. And we know from the Bible (and the time that has passed) that the false prophet was yet far in the future from the time of Jesus. The abominable church has to start, spread and be ready for the man of sin to take over when the time comes. So before the actual time of the end comes the false prophet will have to precede the man of sin by quite some time.

There is coming one who will stand for the remnant. The One Mighty and Strong (OMAS).

13:12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, which was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth among the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, which were in the promised land.

13:13 And it came to pass that I beheld the spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.

The OMAS is with them.

13:16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles which had gone forth out of captivity, did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was with them;

The power of the Lord is the OMAS.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Micah 5:3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

Micah 5:4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.


Yes, the OMAS will be the power of God among the saints until he is caught up to God's throne after which the man of sin will be unopposed. But, while the OMAS is here there is very good news for the remnant that was 'legalistically bound' to the abominable church and its future leader and that comes out of her with the OMAS.

Isaiah 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Unknowingly this binding agreement was made. So the members of this church are not saying we made a covenant with death and thus "we" are protected. They are being told that the covenant that they made by which they believe that they are protected was with death. But, when the OMAS comes he will free the bound that choose to believe him.

Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; ...

When the word "your" is used it refers to everybody in the abominable church. Therefore both end times churches, the harlot and the remnant that comes out are referenced in Isaiah 28:18. The first half above that leave with the OMAS come out of captivity. They have their bounds disannulled. And that is the very good news! The rest that remain.

... when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

THE SEALED PORTION COMES FORTH
13:19 And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles which had gone out of captivity, were delivered by the power of God, out of the hands of all other nations.

13:20 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that they did prosper in the land, and I beheld a Book; and it was carried forth among them.

13:21 And the angel saith unto me, Knowest thou the meaning of the Book?

13:22 And I saith unto him, I know not.

13:23 And he saith, Behold, it proceedeth out of the mouth of a Jew, and I, Nephi, beheld it; and he saith unto me, The Book which thou beholdest, is a record of the Jews, which contains the covenants of the Lord which he hath made unto the House of Israel; and it also containeth many of the prophesies of the Holy Prophets; and it is a record like unto the engravings which are upon the plates of brass, save there are not so many; nevertheless, they contain the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the House of Israel; wherefore, they are of great worth unto the Gentiles.

The above is not the Bible. It is a record smaller than the BOM. The Bible is not smaller than the book of Mormon. This is a 'new' book of scripture that has come forth!

13:26 and after that they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles; behold, after this, thou seest the foundation of a great and abominable church, which is the most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the Gospel of the Lamb, many parts which are plain and most precious; and also, many Covenants of the Lord have they taken away;

13:27 and all this have they done, that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord; that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men;

13:28 wherefore, thou seest that after the Book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the Book, which is the Book of the Lamb of God;

The sealed portion first went forth when its brass plates were engraved. It is only after the sealed portion was engraved that the abominable church was founded. This abominable church is the one that has hid the sealed portion thus, "they have taken away from the Gospel of the Lamb, many parts which are plain and most precious; and also, many Covenants of the Lord have they taken away". They did this so they could, "pervert the right ways of the Lord; that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men" so they could bind the members by agreement to death.

13:28 wherefore, thou seest that after the Book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the Book, which is the Book of the Lamb of God;

The sealed portion will only come forth in part. The abominable church will release it but with, "many plain and precious things taken away from the Book". And the result will not be good.

13:29 and after that these plain and precious things were taken away, it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity; and thou seest because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the Book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God; and because of these things which were taken away out of the Gospel of the Lamb, an exceeding great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them;

However, God will fix the problem. And even new scripture will be written to replace the "plain and precious parts" withheld by the abominable church when they release the sealed portion.

13:32 neither will the Lord God suffer that the Gentiles shall forever remain in that state of awful woundedness which thou beholdest that they are in, because of the plain and most precious parts of the Gospel of the Lamb which hath been kept back by the abominable church, whose formation thou hast seen;

13:33 wherefore, saith the Lamb of God, I will be merciful unto the Gentiles, unto the visiting of the remnant of the House of Israel in great judgment.

13:34 And it came to pass that the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying: Behold, saith the Lamb of God, after that I have visited the remnant of the House of Israel, and this remnant of which I speak, is the seed of thy father; wherefore, after that I have visited them in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles; and after that the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the Gospel of the Lamb which hath been kept back, by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb; wherefore, I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, saith the Lamb, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them in mine own power, much of my Gospel, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb;

13:35 for behold, saith the Lamb, I will manifest myself unto thy seed, that they shall write many things which I shall minister unto them, which shall be plain and precious; and after that thy seed shall be destroyed and dwindle in unbelief, and also, the seed of thy brethren; behold, these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb;

13:36 and in them shall be written my Gospel, saith the Lamb, and my rock and my salvation;

13:37 and blessed are they which shall seek to bring forth my Zion at that day, for they shall have the gift and the power of the Holy Ghost; and if they endure unto the end, they shall be lifted up at the last day, and shall be saved in the Everlasting Kingdom of the Lamb; yea, whoso shall publish peace, that shall publish tidings of great joy, how beautiful upon the mountains shall they be.

I think the most important thing to recognize on this topic is that in the United States we have been beset for over 100 years with a carefully and methodically executed conspiracy intent on destroying the constitutional government the American Founding Fathers gave us and making a shambles of the society and government established by the U.S. Constitution. The goal of the conspirators is to saddle the United States with a centralized socialist government and make our nation subservient to a single, world government, a.k.a. the New World Order. If American are to break free of this conspiracy, we must learn the principles of the Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers, and espouse, uphold, and abide by them. I fail to note much serious loyalty to the principles of the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights among most Americans, including most American Latter-day Saints.

lundbaek wrote: ↑January 29th, 2020, 1:19 pm I think the most important thing to recognize on this topic is that in the United States we have been beset for over 100 years with a carefully and methodically executed conspiracy intent on destroying the constitutional government the American Founding Fathers gave us and making a shambles of the society and government established by the U.S. Constitution. The goal of the conspirators is to saddle the United States with a centralized socialist government and make our nation subservient to a single, world government, a.k.a. the New World Order. If American are to break free of this conspiracy, we must learn the principles of the Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers, and espouse, uphold, and abide by them. I fail to note much serious loyalty to the principles of the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights among most Americans, including most American Latter-day Saints.

I agree wholeheartedly with your comment. Also, I think we would need to abstain from using any of the federal reserve's currency (In my case, the bank of canada). Our currency is a satanic construction and its value is based on nothing but the faith of the person receiving the bank notes. To be honest, I still marvel at the evil genius behind the creation of money out of nothing.

PickleRick wrote: ↑January 23rd, 2020, 8:08 pm Any institution, person or teaching that leads one to God is OF The Church of the Lamb. Any person, institution or teaching that leads one to worship anything other than God is OF the Church of the Devil.
A "true" church would contain 100% of the former and 0% of the latter.
A church that is growing towards trueness would embrace truth "wherever it may be found."
A church that is growing away from trueness would become rigid, doctrinaire, and claim "A Bible! A Bible! We have a Bible and need no more Bible!" (or "A Book of Mormon!...etc.)

The Roman Catholics are easy targets because they had the plain and precious truths and they altered it to suit their customs and desires.
Few there are that are not living in glass houses and are able to throw stones without hazard.

yes that mother of abominations, (1 Nephi 13:26-28); 14:13; the whore of all the Earth,
is the church of the devil (1 Nephi 14:9,10). (the Catholic church)
That church forms among the nations of the Gentiles (1 Nephi 13:4)
It removes plain and precious parts from the gospel of the lamb (1 Nephi 13:26-28)
This defective gospel makes the Gentiles stumble, giving Satan great power over them (1 Nephi 13:29, 34)

The "fullness of the gospel breaks out as a light among those that sit in darkness." (the restored gospel - our church)
"BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT"

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge;
for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

Actually ""A Bible!, A Bible! We have got a Bible" is referring to the Words of Christ and the Brother of Jared's vision
(the sealed portion) that the end-time servant brings to us - the church - to all the Gentiles - they will reject him and Christ's words.
*** (please see below)

The Book of Mormon comes forth to try the Gentiles' faith:
it contains but the "lesser part" of Jesus' words to the Nephites.(3 Nephi 26:8).
If the Gentiles will believe that portion - the Book of Mormon -
the Lord will manifest to them the greater things also.(3 Nephi 26:9).
The Book of Mormon, the record of a fallen people, contains warnings to the Gentiles: Moroni adds to the Book of Mormon a brief history of the Jaredites, addressing his abridgment specifically to the Gentiles.(Eth. 2:11).
He interrupts his account four times to speak directly to the them. (Eth. 2:9-12; 4:6-5; 8:23-26; 12:6-41).
Moroni has seen the Gentiles in a vision.(Morm 8:35). He tells them, therefore, things they should know.
The nation that does not serve God will be swept off the land. (Eth 2:9-10).
The Gentiles should repent and become clean before the Lord. (Eth. 4:6).
They should not allow secret combinations to get above them. (Eth 8:23-25).
They must exercise faith as did the ancients. (Eth. 12:6-31).
They must have hope and charity. (Eth.12:36-37).

Two consecutive histories of fallen peoples on this land fore-warn
the Gentiles of their own imminent fate. (Eth. 2:11; 8:21-26).
Mormon has vividly described the destruction of the Nephites. (Morm. 6:1-22).
Now Moroni recounts the destruction of the Jaredites in order to persuade
the Gentiles to repent. (Eth. 2:11; 8:23).
The Lord bids the Gentiles to come unto him.(Eth. 4:13).
In him they may be cleansed and sanctified. (Eth. 4:6-7).
The two following parallel statements tell the Gentiles the cause of their unbelief. Rhetorical markers are "when ye shall" and "then shall".

Ether 4
15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shallye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.
16 And then shall my revelations which I have caused to be written by my servant John be unfolded in the eyes of all the people.
(emphasis added (Italicized) "when ye shall" "then shall"

The parallel nature of this scripture reveals a deeper meaning.
It teaches that people can rend the veil of unbelief- which has caused
them to remain in an awful state of wickedness, hardness of heart, and blindness of mind - by calling on the Father in the name of Jesus with a broken heart and a a contrite spirit.
It further teaches that the great and marvelous things hidden up from the foundation of the world are the Father's fulfillment of his covenant with the house of Israel, as contained in the revelations of John. These great and marvelous things, however, have not yet been revealed. As adverse as it may seem , we conclude from these scriptures, therefore, that many of us as Gentiles still remain in an awful state of wickedness. We have not yet rent the veil of our unbelief- we have not called upon the Father in the name of Jesus as we ought.
The Gentiles' rending of the veil is significant in this overall scripture. Moroni has just shown us how the Brother of Jared "rent the veil".
The Lord now bids the Gentiles to do the same.
When they exercise faith as the Brother of Jared saw.
In other words, the Lord invites the Gentiles to make their calling and election sure by being received into his presences as the Brother of Jared was.
When they do that, he will reveal to them the "greater things", unfolding to them all his revelations.
The Lord's great and marvelous work typifies the greater things.
The Lord performs that work among the Gentiles.
To that end, he sends among them the three Nephite disciples. The great and marvelous work involves the coming forth of the words of Christ.
The Father empowers a latter-day servant to bring forth the words of Christ to
the Gentiles. The servant is the light to the Gentiles. To him, they rally as to an ensign. When the Lord lifts up his hand and ensign to the Gentiles, they perform their saving mission to the house of Israel.
Through his latter-day servant, the Lord concludes His work among the Gentiles and commences His work among the house of Israel: as the Lord's covenant, light, and ensign, the servant personifies the gospel that has hitherto served as a "covenant", "light", and "standard" to the Gentiles, as the gospel has been a "messenger" preparing the way before the Lord, so the servant is a "messenger" who prepares the way before the Lord's coming to earth.

The Book of Mormon contains less than a hundredth part of Jesus' words to the Nephites. Yet, in the last days, the fullness of Jesus' words comes forth to the Gentiles in accordance with the servant's mission.
The plates of Nephi contain the greater part of what Jesus taught the people.
They, therefore, are among the "other books" to come forth. They "make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world".
They make known also the folly and abominations of the Gentiles.
Prophecies about the Gentiles in the latter days thus show two facets. Those Gentiles who are under condemnation- which causes the Lord to withhold from them the greater things- will remain under condemnation if they do not repent.
For that reason, the Gentiles must turn from their evil ways. Those Gentiles who make their calling and election sure, to whom the Lord reveals the greater things, do not, of course, represent all the Gentiles. In the latter days, the gospel turns first to the Gentiles. But when many of them reject it, the gospel turns to the Jews and other natural lineages of Israel.

***Moroni saw that many Gentiles would mock the Brother of Jared's vision. Moroni writes that vision in the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. Many Gentiles too, will not believe the great and marvelous work - will not believe the words of Christ. Of the words of Christ coming forth in the day, the Gentiles will say, "A Bible!, A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible".
The Words of Christ and the Brother of Jared's vision cover the entire history of humanity. In that respect, they resemble the Bible more than the Book of Mormon does. The two full accounts will come forth to the Gentiles- when some Gentiles become sanctified as the Brother of Jared - and turn from the Gentiles to the house of Israel.

From these scriptures , we gain a clearer idea of how so many Gentiles will sin against the gospel of Jesus Christ . They will disavow the new revelations the Lord will bring forth. Having formerly received the gospel, many Gentiles will now reject it. Instead of repenting of their iniquities, they will harden their hearts and deny the Lord of Hosts. Refusing to come unto Christ and obey his voice, these Gentiles will be as "salt that hath lost its savor".
At the time they reject the gospel, the wicked Gentiles are "lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations". They are "filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations". Being "lifted up in the pride of their eyes", they "put down the power and miracles of God". Publishing for money, they "preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor".
(3 Nephi 16:10)

These Gentiles have no charity for their fellow beings. They don't thank the Jews nor Lehi's descendants for the scriptures they have received from them. Instead, they curse and hate them and will not recover them. (please see below *** (A) )
The Lord lengthens out his arm to the Gentiles all the day long. But they mar the Lord's servant who brings forth His words. Their rejecting the Lord's servant and their rejecting the gospel doubly testifies of their apostasy; Nephi, therefore, offers no hope for the Gentiles unless they reconcile themselves to Christ.
Although the Gentiles know God's decrees on this land, many allow secret combinations to get above them. Drunken with iniquity and all manner of abominations, they suffer woes- God's covenant curse. When they reject his words, the Lord cuts them off from his people. He removes the fullness of his gospel from among the wicked, giving it to those who will receive it. With the wicked Gentiles' apostasy and its aftermath, the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The Lord turns the iniquities of the Gentiles upon their own heads. He comes out in justice against them. The wicked Gentiles bring down the fullness of God's wrath, just as the Jaredites and Nephites did. The Lord visits the Gentiles "with thunder and with earthquake, and with a great noise, and with storm, and with tempest, and with the flame of devouring fire". The sword of justices falls on the wicked Gentiles. He destroys the Gentiles; cities and chariots and executes vengeance and fury upon them. He covers their land with a desolating sickness. A scourge consumes the wicked.
The unrepentant Gentiles cannot stand before God's power. Lehi's descendants, whom God empowers, marshal themselves and vex the wicked Gentiles.
They go among the Gentiles like a lion among the beasts, treading down and tearing to pieces. Lehi's descendants, who are of the house of Israel, inherit the Gentiles' lands and cities. The Lord reestablishes Lehi's descendants in this land, even as the wicked Gentiles perish.
Although the scriptures say that the Gentiles will perish, the Lord doesn't utterly destroy them. Some Gentiles, as we have seen, turn from their evil ways. Some don't harden their hearts. They don't unite with that great and abominable church nor fight against Zion. These Gentiles know where their blessings come from - they know that the Lord has blessed them with the blessings of Israel.
To save as many Gentiles as will come to him, the Lord calls on them before the day of judgement. he stirs up the Gentiles and the house of Israel in order to persuade them to repent. The Gentiles must repent and not continue in iniquity. They must forthwith repent and humble themselves. If they do, it will be well with them. As they repent and come to the Lord, he will be merciful to them. Those Gentiles who repent and obey the words of Christ will be blessed.
The Gentiles who come unto Christ receive baptism; they obtain a remission of their sins and are filled with the Holy Ghost. When the Gentiles come unto Christ, he shows them their weakness; yet his grace suffices for those who humble themselves. Faith, hope, and charity bring the Gentiles of Christ, the fountain of all righteousness. The Lord saves the righteous Gentiles both temporally and spiritually.
After manifesting himself to the Gentiles, the Lord manifests himself to the Jews. The gospel goes first to the Gentiles and then to the house of Israel.
The Gentiles take the gospel to Lehi's descendants, and also to the Jews. The Twelve, the Seventy, and other Latter-day Saints assist in carrying the gospel of the Jews.

When the Lord lifts up his hand to the Gentiles, they serve as an "ensign/standard" to the house of Israel.
The house of Israel receives the Book of Mormon through the fullness of the Gentiles. That involves, additionally, the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. "Other books" go forth from the righteous Gentiles to the house of Israel. These books convince the house of Israel of the truthfulness of the gospel and they are blessed again under the covenant.
The Lord softens many Gentiles' hearts toward Lehi's descendants. Many care for the house of Israel and sorrow for their destruction. They curse the house of Israel and serve as fathers and mothers to them. They minister the gospel's fullness to Lehi's descendants. The Lord consecrates the Gentiles' riches to the poor of the house of Israel.
Thus are the natural branches grafted back into the olive tree.
When the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, the Jews again gather to Jerusalem. The righteous Gentiles assist the house of Israel in gathering them from dispersion; they carry the house of Israel to the lands fo their inheritance. They assist Lehi's descendants to gather to the New Jerusalem. They help Lehi's descendants build the city. The Lord's promises are great to the Gentiles. The Lord blesses the righteous Gentiles by numbering them with the house of Israel. The Lord numbers many Gentiles with Lehi's descendants. The Lord has promised this land to Lehi's descendants.
Like them, the righteous Gentiles are blessed on this land forever.
Like them, these Gentiles come down captive no more. The righteous Gentiles also are the covenant people of the Lord.

Analysis of the term Gentiles in the scriptures thus supports our earlier findings about the Gentiles; latter-day mission. But it yields a complete and more detailed picture of what that mission is all about. The question of identities - of Latter-day Saint "Gentiles" and other inhabitants of the Americas- is her resolved.
The twofold nature of the Gentiles in the last days- with some numbered among Lehi's descendants and others cut off from the Lord's people- transcends our Latter-day Saint identity. Those who make their calling and election sure are called "Gentiles", even as those cut off from the Lord's covenant are called "Gentiles". In the end, however, the repentant Gentiles assume the identity of the house of Israel whereas the unrepentant are destroyed. Together with other gentile inhabitants of the Americas, the unrepentant remain "Gentiles" and suffer God's judgments.
Latter-day Saints who fulfill their righteous mission, therefore, are known as Gentiles but only for an interim period.
The interval between the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the Lord's day of judgment serves as a time of probation that determines which identity will emerge. As with all the Lord's covenants, that probationary period enables us to prove our faithfulness and to receive the promised blessings. Just as the Jews anciently ministered the gospel to the Gentiles, so will the Gentiles minister it to the house of Israel."

*** (A)
As a natural branch of the olive tree (Romans 11:24), the Jews brought forth the Bible in its purity (1 Nephi 14:23) long before the Gentile church removed from it “many plain and precious parts” and “many covenants of the Lord” (1 Nephi 13:20–40). Of the Gentiles, God thus says, “O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles? O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people. Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?” (2 Nephi 29:4–6).

Because this scripture specifically addresses God’s people “in Zion” (2 Nephi 28:21, 24), it is the end-time descendants of Ephraim who have come through the Gentile lineages who come under this condemnation. A revelation given through the prophet Joseph Smith affirms this: “Your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation. And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all. And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion” (D&C 84:54–58).

Isaiah, in fact, informs us that “a scourge and judgment” will be poured out on many of the children of Zion who are of the tribe of Ephraim. In an entire chapter devoted to Ephraim and its prophets, Isaiah says, “A hail shall sweep away your false refuge and waters flood the hiding place.
Your covenant with death shall prove void, your understanding with Sheol have no effect: when the flooding scourge sweeps through, you shall be overrun by it. As often as it sweeps through, you shall be seized by it: morning after morning it shall sweep through, by day and by night [it shall seize you]; it shall cause terror merely to hear word of it” (Isaiah 28:17–19; cf. D&C 5:19). For those Ephraimites who believe his truth, on the other hand, God “lays in Zion a stone” (Isaiah 28:16; emphasis added)—an end-time seer—as an antidote to the flooding scourge that overruns the wicked.

Great and Abominable Church.
The church believes this to be the Catholic church.

this below was taken from accepted doctrines of the church,
speaking of the The great and abominable church
"He saw that this church took away from the gospel of the Lamb many covenants and many plain and precious parts; that it perverted the right ways of the Lord; that it deleted many teachings from the Bible; that it was 'the mother of harlots'; and finally that the Lord would again restore the gospel of salvation. (1 Ne. 13:24-42.)
(see below Bruce R. McConkie)

1 Ne 13:5 The great and abominable church

Orson Pratt, in his 1853-1854 periodical The Seer, claimed that the founder of the Roman Catholic Church was “the Devil, through the medium of Apostates, who subverted the whole order of God” and that they derived their “authority from the Devil....”
“The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church, is the great corrupt, ecclesiastical power, represented by great Babylon” (Orson Pratt, Writings of an Apostle, Orson Pratt, n. 6, 84).

Bruce R. McConkie is credited with promoting the idea within the modern church that the "great and abominable church" was in fact the Roman Catholic Church."

"It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this ‘church which is the most abominable above all other churches’ in vision. He ‘saw the devil that he was the foundation of it’ and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization."

Under the heading, “Church of the Devil,” Apostle Bruce R. McConkie lists:] “The Roman Catholic Church specifically—singled out, set apart, described, and designated as being ‘most abominable above all other churches’ (I Ne. 13:5)” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, 129).

Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls (Morm. 8; Moro. 8)” (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, Bruce R. McConkie, 177).

Bruce R. McConkie

"Nephi saw the 'church which is most abominable above all other churches' in vision. He 'saw the devil that he was the foundation of it'; and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that are part of this organization (1 Ne 13:1-10)

"He saw that this church took away from the gospel of the Lamb many covenants and many plain and precious parts; that it perverted the right ways of the Lord; that it deleted many teachings from the Bible; that it was 'the mother of harlots'; and finally that the Lord would again restore the gospel of salvation. (1 Ne. 13:24-42.)

"Similar visions were given to John as recorded in the 17th and 18th chapters of Revelation. He saw this evil church as a whole ruling over peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues; as being full of blasphemy abominations, filthiness, and fornication; as having the name, 'MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH'; as drunken with the blood of the saints; as revelling in wealth and the delicacies of the earth; as making merchandise of all costly items and of 'slaves, and souls of men.' And then John, as did Nephi, saw the fall and utter destruction of this great church whose foundation is the devil.

"In this world of carnality and sensuousness, the great and abominable church will continue its destructive course. But there will be an eventual future day when evil shall end, 'and the great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall be cast down by devouring fire.' (D. & C. 29:21; Ezek. 38; 39; 1 Ne. 22:23; Rev. 18.) Before that day, however, desolations will sweep through the earth and the various branches of the great and abominable church 'shall war among themselves, and the sword of their own hands shall fall upon their own heads, and they shall be drunken with their own blood.' (1 Ne. 22:13-14; 14:3.)" (Mormon Doctrine, pp.138-9)

1 Nephi 13:8 Behold the gold, and the silver… and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church

In 1510, Martin Luther visited Rome. As a German monk, he was associated with a group of pious priests who took their stewardship seriously. What he saw in Rome shocked him:

“The abysmal ignorance, frivolity, and levity of the Italian priests stupefied him. They… were flippantly unbelieving and would address the sacrament saying, ‘Bread art thou and bread thou wilt remain, and wine art thou and wine thou wilt remain.’ (The doctrine at the time was that the bread and wine actually turned into the body and blood of Christ by a process called transubstantiation. The priests were mocking this doctrine) To a devout believer from the unsophisticated Northland such disclosures were truly shocking...

[Hearing] of the immorality of the Roman clergy… [Luther wondered] if there were a hell Rome was built upon it… the district of ill fame was frequented by ecclesiastics (priests). He heard there were those who considered themselves virtuous because they confined themselves to women.” (RH Bainton, Here I Stand: A Life of Martin Luther, [Peabody Mass., Hendrickson Publishers, 1950], p. 31)