LDS Freedom Forum

gkearney wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 5:10 am A 12-year-olds mother clearly has authority over him.

Legal authority, yes. Actual authority to act in God's name, even with as limited as a deacon's priesthood is, no.

We got to remember, that this business of ordaining 12 or now 11 year olds is relatively new. Deacons used to be grown men in the New Testament. I am not 100 percent certain as to where the authorization came (no doubt the prophet and the 12) to ordain children to the priesthood of God, but it isnt without precedent. John the Baptist was ordained extremely young as well, so it's not that they cant be ordained earlier.
I think what turns people off to this true, albeit hard to swallow statement, is that most 12 year olds dont know anything at all. How could they have more authority than their mother or a sister missionary? But that's how it is. The priesthood of God is that big of a deal. Not seminary degrees from prestigious minister colleges, all the worldly experience, age, or financial standing make a bit of difference when it comes to having authority from God.

Connie561 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 9:00 am

Sarah wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 8:44 am

Connie561 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 8:29 am

Sarah wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 8:18 am

We don't the details of the story and how this sister came across.
I does sound like she was prideful, but there could have been other ways to handle it other than telling her a deacon has authority to tell her what to do. I bet ya if another male zone leader said the same thing to that new zone leader, the MP would have ignored it and reminded him later that he shouldn't feel like he knew more than others just because of his appointment.

We get enough of the details to know what is going on in the story. For Example the Elders Quorum President can not tell a Primary President how to do her calling. He does not have authority to do so. A Bishop or a member of the Bishopric over Primary does. The Elders are not over the Sisters in the mission field except for the Mission President. So she was overstepping her authority when she was over the Sisters missionaries to correct the Elders.

If this is true why in the world would the MP use the example of a deacon having more authority than her when that is not true. The deacon has no authority over her.

And how do we not know that in her mind she was being helpful and it got interrpreted the wrong way. It would be like if my husband got called to be the Elders quorum president, and I told him that as the RS pres I knew how to help people in their temporal and spiritual needs.

Let's just say that you are the Relief Society President and your husband is Elders Quorum President. That would work with the Bishop presiding over the both of you. As a team you would decide on ministering assignments for example.

I think the Sister Missionary was trying to be helpful and she does not have the priesthood authority to baptize. So it is not her place to tell someone how to do something when she does not have the authority to do so. It is the Mission President or someone he has authorized to correct the Elders of There is a problem. So he was right in correcting her so that all the missionaries could understand correct principles.

So what authority does this 12 year old boy have that she doesn’t have as a missionary? He has a job of passing sacrament....but he’s not authorized to be a missionary in the MTC she is. If it was the other way around the 12 year old would be told he’s not allowed in but she is. He just reminded the woman that she’s not wanted in the mission field, to sit down and keep your mouth shut...That he would rather hear from a 12 year old than a sister missionary and that her place in things is to be a servant in the dark.

She was set apart as a missionary, that has to count for something.

If all he did was remind her she had no priesthood then he didn’t have to use a child in his example.

It surprises me when I hear these types of things that women in this church bite their tongues and put on a nice face around church functions. The unrighteous dominion needs to stop.

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:03 am

gkearney wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 5:10 am A 12-year-olds mother clearly has authority over him.

Legal authority, yes. Actual authority to act in God's name, even with as limited as a deacon's priesthood is, no.

We got to remember, that this business of ordaining 12 or now 11 year olds is relatively new. Deacons used to be grown men in the New Testament. I am not 100 percent certain as to where the authorization came (no doubt the prophet and the 12) to ordain children to the priesthood of God, but it isnt without precedent. John the Baptist was ordained extremely young as well, so it's not that they cant be ordained earlier.
I think what turns people off to this true, albeit hard to swallow statement, is that most 12 year olds dont know anything at all. How could they have more authority than their mother or a sister missionary? But that's how it is. The priesthood of God is that big of a deal. Not seminary degrees from prestigious minister colleges, all the worldly experience, age, or financial standing make a bit of difference when it comes to having authority from God.

How would a unordained father take it if a mother told him that he needs to shut his mouth up because his 12 year old son has more authority than him? Lol. I can see this going very very badly for everyone.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 4:28 am

Stahura wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 3:30 am This whole conversation shows everything that’s wrong with the church today.

What good is this deacons authority and power if even the “greatest” among us don’t work mighty works?

I promise there are women who do work and will work mightier works than this 12 year old deacon , and even more than this sad Mission President. If flaunting your power and authority makes you feel better, go for it.

All of this again just shows how little we value and focus on the doctrine of Christ, how little we understand grace, and faith, and the Spirit. We emphasize our actions, our ordinances, our own authority and power. It gets us nowhere, and the lack of spiritual manifestations is proof of it.

Look at the scriptures. They worked mighty works, saved souls and lives because of faith. They didn’t brag and argue over ordinations and priesthood power. They exercised faith and sacrificed what was required. Do what they did. We have nothing to be proud of, nothing worth flaunting. This conversation is silly .

You can have your authority and power and hang it over women’s heads. As for me, Ill take my ordination at the hands of man, and continue onward patiently seeking the things I know the Lord expects and wants from me. I can tell you this much, the path is a lot more difficult than being born Mormon and having your papi ordain you at 12 years old.

I won’t be responding to the inevitable vitriol, but have at it. Just speaking my mind and dipping.

Oh here we go again... it shows nothing of the sort.

Yes it does....it's show our church teaches people to be clowns.
Hence all this authority talk from people who can't heal a paper cut.

Lol this thread is proof of us BEING JUST LIKE THE JEWS 2000 YEARS AGO.

What a trip

Connie561 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 9:00 am

Sarah wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 8:44 am

Connie561 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 8:29 am

Sarah wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 8:18 am

We don't the details of the story and how this sister came across.
I does sound like she was prideful, but there could have been other ways to handle it other than telling her a deacon has authority to tell her what to do. I bet ya if another male zone leader said the same thing to that new zone leader, the MP would have ignored it and reminded him later that he shouldn't feel like he knew more than others just because of his appointment.

We get enough of the details to know what is going on in the story. For Example the Elders Quorum President can not tell a Primary President how to do her calling. He does not have authority to do so. A Bishop or a member of the Bishopric over Primary does. The Elders are not over the Sisters in the mission field except for the Mission President. So she was overstepping her authority when she was over the Sisters missionaries to correct the Elders.

If this is true why in the world would the MP use the example of a deacon having more authority than her when that is not true. The deacon has no authority over her.

And how do we not know that in her mind she was being helpful and it got interrpreted the wrong way. It would be like if my husband got called to be the Elders quorum president, and I told him that as the RS pres I knew how to help people in their temporal and spiritual needs.

Let's just say that you are the Relief Society President and your husband is Elders Quorum President. That would work with the Bishop presiding over the both of you. As a team you would decide on ministering assignments for example.

I think the Sister Missionary was trying to be helpful and she does not have the priesthood authority to baptize. So it is not her place to tell someone how to do something when she does not have the authority to do so. It is the Mission President or someone he has authorized to correct the Elders of There is a problem. So he was right in correcting her so that all the missionaries could understand correct principles.

But she wasn't trying to tell anyone that she could do the ordinances. She was saying she had experience talking to investigators.

nightlight wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:16 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 4:28 am

Stahura wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 3:30 am This whole conversation shows everything that’s wrong with the church today.

What good is this deacons authority and power if even the “greatest” among us don’t work mighty works?

I promise there are women who do work and will work mightier works than this 12 year old deacon , and even more than this sad Mission President. If flaunting your power and authority makes you feel better, go for it.

All of this again just shows how little we value and focus on the doctrine of Christ, how little we understand grace, and faith, and the Spirit. We emphasize our actions, our ordinances, our own authority and power. It gets us nowhere, and the lack of spiritual manifestations is proof of it.

Look at the scriptures. They worked mighty works, saved souls and lives because of faith. They didn’t brag and argue over ordinations and priesthood power. They exercised faith and sacrificed what was required. Do what they did. We have nothing to be proud of, nothing worth flaunting. This conversation is silly .

You can have your authority and power and hang it over women’s heads. As for me, Ill take my ordination at the hands of man, and continue onward patiently seeking the things I know the Lord expects and wants from me. I can tell you this much, the path is a lot more difficult than being born Mormon and having your papi ordain you at 12 years old.

I won’t be responding to the inevitable vitriol, but have at it. Just speaking my mind and dipping.

Oh here we go again... it shows nothing of the sort.

Yes it does....it's show our church teaches people to be clowns.
Hence all this authority talk from people who can't heal a paper cut.

With faith that poor, yeah, it doesnt surprise me you havent witnessed any healing miracles.

MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 9:56 am

gradles21 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 9:14 am Satan is really good at his job. He has beguiled a lot of women in the church, convincing them more and more to care about this very topic, which really boils down to pride and trying to compete with men. Convincing women in general to ignore their true purpose and to be obsessed with things they don't have, and will never have, has to be one of the serpents greatest accomplishments.

This thread was about the shaming this MP did.

I still believe a 12 year old boy doesn’t carry authority over the women of the church. He can pass the sacrament. Big deal.

No woman I know wants to be a man. But every woman I know desires to be respected by men not thought of as inferior. That’s what this MP actions did to this woman. He put her down. He wouldn’t have (pretty confident in this) said such a put down to a male missionary in public....because this man revealed he actually thinks little of women.

Everyone should feel good about their membership, status and participation in this church. It’s not pride to pursue such a thing. If women feel inferior then there is an imbalance. Men don’t feel inferior because they don’t have a uterus because it’s not a problem or been shown to put men inferior to women. Men do not understand how women feel or what’s in their heart. It’s easy to judge from the sidelines.

There is no male envy or wanting to be men or even wanting priesthood office. It’s a bit more complex

A Deacon Quorum President is one of four people in a ward who hold Priesthood Keys. He only holds the keys over his quorum. So he does not hold the keys over women in the church.

MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:09 am

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:03 am

gkearney wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 5:10 am A 12-year-olds mother clearly has authority over him.

Legal authority, yes. Actual authority to act in God's name, even with as limited as a deacon's priesthood is, no.

We got to remember, that this business of ordaining 12 or now 11 year olds is relatively new. Deacons used to be grown men in the New Testament. I am not 100 percent certain as to where the authorization came (no doubt the prophet and the 12) to ordain children to the priesthood of God, but it isnt without precedent. John the Baptist was ordained extremely young as well, so it's not that they cant be ordained earlier.
I think what turns people off to this true, albeit hard to swallow statement, is that most 12 year olds dont know anything at all. How could they have more authority than their mother or a sister missionary? But that's how it is. The priesthood of God is that big of a deal. Not seminary degrees from prestigious minister colleges, all the worldly experience, age, or financial standing make a bit of difference when it comes to having authority from God.

How would a unordained father take it if a mother told him that he needs to shut his mouth up because his 12 year old son has more authority than him? Lol. I can see this going very very badly for everyone.

He may get upset too, just like the sisters in here are getting. But it would still remain true. Has nothing to do with gender. Let me repeat that again, has nothing to do with gender. This is about proper ordination as outlined in the scriptures.

John the Baptist was ordained while still a child, much younger than 12 years old. Did he not have the authority to establish God's Kingdom? Mind you, he only had the Aaronic Priesthood but Joseph Smith states that that was enough for him to have established the Kingdom of God on the Earth.

Sarah wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:22 am

Connie561 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 9:00 am

Sarah wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 8:44 am

Connie561 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 8:29 am

We get enough of the details to know what is going on in the story. For Example the Elders Quorum President can not tell a Primary President how to do her calling. He does not have authority to do so. A Bishop or a member of the Bishopric over Primary does. The Elders are not over the Sisters in the mission field except for the Mission President. So she was overstepping her authority when she was over the Sisters missionaries to correct the Elders.

If this is true why in the world would the MP use the example of a deacon having more authority than her when that is not true. The deacon has no authority over her.

And how do we not know that in her mind she was being helpful and it got interrpreted the wrong way. It would be like if my husband got called to be the Elders quorum president, and I told him that as the RS pres I knew how to help people in their temporal and spiritual needs.

Let's just say that you are the Relief Society President and your husband is Elders Quorum President. That would work with the Bishop presiding over the both of you. As a team you would decide on ministering assignments for example.

I think the Sister Missionary was trying to be helpful and she does not have the priesthood authority to baptize. So it is not her place to tell someone how to do something when she does not have the authority to do so. It is the Mission President or someone he has authorized to correct the Elders of There is a problem. So he was right in correcting her so that all the missionaries could understand correct principles.

But she wasn't trying to tell anyone that she could do the ordinances. She was saying she had experience talking to investigators.

I think if she talked about sharing her experiences talking to investigators she would be perfectly fine. It was when she told everyone in the room about her position in the church and in trying to correct them that she crossed the line.

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:30 am

nightlight wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:16 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 4:28 am

Stahura wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 3:30 am This whole conversation shows everything that’s wrong with the church today.

What good is this deacons authority and power if even the “greatest” among us don’t work mighty works?

I promise there are women who do work and will work mightier works than this 12 year old deacon , and even more than this sad Mission President. If flaunting your power and authority makes you feel better, go for it.

All of this again just shows how little we value and focus on the doctrine of Christ, how little we understand grace, and faith, and the Spirit. We emphasize our actions, our ordinances, our own authority and power. It gets us nowhere, and the lack of spiritual manifestations is proof of it.

Look at the scriptures. They worked mighty works, saved souls and lives because of faith. They didn’t brag and argue over ordinations and priesthood power. They exercised faith and sacrificed what was required. Do what they did. We have nothing to be proud of, nothing worth flaunting. This conversation is silly .

You can have your authority and power and hang it over women’s heads. As for me, Ill take my ordination at the hands of man, and continue onward patiently seeking the things I know the Lord expects and wants from me. I can tell you this much, the path is a lot more difficult than being born Mormon and having your papi ordain you at 12 years old.

I won’t be responding to the inevitable vitriol, but have at it. Just speaking my mind and dipping.

Oh here we go again... it shows nothing of the sort.

Yes it does....it's show our church teaches people to be clowns.
Hence all this authority talk from people who can't heal a paper cut.

With faith that poor, yeah, it doesnt surprise me you havent witnessed any healing miracles.

My friend was born blind.....may I bring him to you?

Connie561 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:30 am

MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 9:56 am

gradles21 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 9:14 am Satan is really good at his job. He has beguiled a lot of women in the church, convincing them more and more to care about this very topic, which really boils down to pride and trying to compete with men. Convincing women in general to ignore their true purpose and to be obsessed with things they don't have, and will never have, has to be one of the serpents greatest accomplishments.

This thread was about the shaming this MP did.

I still believe a 12 year old boy doesn’t carry authority over the women of the church. He can pass the sacrament. Big deal.

No woman I know wants to be a man. But every woman I know desires to be respected by men not thought of as inferior. That’s what this MP actions did to this woman. He put her down. He wouldn’t have (pretty confident in this) said such a put down to a male missionary in public....because this man revealed he actually thinks little of women.

Everyone should feel good about their membership, status and participation in this church. It’s not pride to pursue such a thing. If women feel inferior then there is an imbalance. Men don’t feel inferior because they don’t have a uterus because it’s not a problem or been shown to put men inferior to women. Men do not understand how women feel or what’s in their heart. It’s easy to judge from the sidelines.

There is no male envy or wanting to be men or even wanting priesthood office. It’s a bit more complex

A Deacon Quorum President is one of four people in a ward who hold Priesthood Keys. He only holds the keys over his quorum. So he does not hold the keys over women in the church.

No, but he does still hold more priesthood authority than any sister in the ward. Not an opinion, just fact. This is silly even to compare the two honestly. Of course he has more priesthood authority by virtue of the fact that women dont hold any priesthood. This is a ridiculous comparison.

JustDan wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 3:21 am

MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 7:42 pm By this theory, a 12 year old boy has more authority than heavenly mother.

A 12 year old has not received his endowment thus has less authority than a woman who has. She has a greater priesthood.

You can't use the assumption that we have a Heavenly Mother (yes, it is an assumption not doctrine) as an argument against a doctrinal point I.e. the Priesthood of God.

An endowment does not give an unordained woman greater authority than the Aaronic Priesthood. What is the point of being ordained with Priesthood if one can simply receive it through the endowment?

We absolutely can state that we have a heavenly mother, it’s our doctrine. The family and husband and wife are sealed and the family is in force in the eternities. No God can become God if he is not sealed to a female, this is our teachings. But hey, let’s just erase women and motherhood all together and make it all about the priesthood and lose the purpose and meaning of the entire plan.

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:38 am

Connie561 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:30 am

MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 9:56 am

gradles21 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 9:14 am Satan is really good at his job. He has beguiled a lot of women in the church, convincing them more and more to care about this very topic, which really boils down to pride and trying to compete with men. Convincing women in general to ignore their true purpose and to be obsessed with things they don't have, and will never have, has to be one of the serpents greatest accomplishments.

This thread was about the shaming this MP did.

I still believe a 12 year old boy doesn’t carry authority over the women of the church. He can pass the sacrament. Big deal.

No woman I know wants to be a man. But every woman I know desires to be respected by men not thought of as inferior. That’s what this MP actions did to this woman. He put her down. He wouldn’t have (pretty confident in this) said such a put down to a male missionary in public....because this man revealed he actually thinks little of women.

Everyone should feel good about their membership, status and participation in this church. It’s not pride to pursue such a thing. If women feel inferior then there is an imbalance. Men don’t feel inferior because they don’t have a uterus because it’s not a problem or been shown to put men inferior to women. Men do not understand how women feel or what’s in their heart. It’s easy to judge from the sidelines.

There is no male envy or wanting to be men or even wanting priesthood office. It’s a bit more complex

A Deacon Quorum President is one of four people in a ward who hold Priesthood Keys. He only holds the keys over his quorum. So he does not hold the keys over women in the church.

No, but he does still hold more priesthood authority than any sister in the ward. Not an opinion, just fact. This is silly even to compare the two honestly. Of course he has more priesthood authority by virtue of the fact that women dont hold any priesthood. This is a ridiculous comparison.

Sure he has the priesthood but the example given was a 12 year old having authority over a sister missionary. It should have been stated that a brother missionary in a position of leadership had more authority than she did as a lay missionary. This MP made it about priesthood instead of leadership roles in the mission field. That is where he went wrong. Do you honestly believe he had to call her out because she believed she had the priesthood and ability to baptize like the elders do? I 100% doubt it. Every woman knows she doesn’t have the priesthood to bless and pass or to baptize or confer or seal.

nightlight wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:36 am

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:30 am

nightlight wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:16 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 4:28 am

Oh here we go again... it shows nothing of the sort.

Yes it does....it's show our church teaches people to be clowns.
Hence all this authority talk from people who can't heal a paper cut.

With faith that poor, yeah, it doesnt surprise me you havent witnessed any healing miracles.

My friend was born blind.....may I bring him to you?

Why? Are the sisters who have preisthood power too busy lately?

Sorry, in all seriousness, something like that is not something we should joke about.

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:33 am

MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:09 am

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:03 am

gkearney wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 5:10 am A 12-year-olds mother clearly has authority over him.

Legal authority, yes. Actual authority to act in God's name, even with as limited as a deacon's priesthood is, no.

We got to remember, that this business of ordaining 12 or now 11 year olds is relatively new. Deacons used to be grown men in the New Testament. I am not 100 percent certain as to where the authorization came (no doubt the prophet and the 12) to ordain children to the priesthood of God, but it isnt without precedent. John the Baptist was ordained extremely young as well, so it's not that they cant be ordained earlier.
I think what turns people off to this true, albeit hard to swallow statement, is that most 12 year olds dont know anything at all. How could they have more authority than their mother or a sister missionary? But that's how it is. The priesthood of God is that big of a deal. Not seminary degrees from prestigious minister colleges, all the worldly experience, age, or financial standing make a bit of difference when it comes to having authority from God.

How would a unordained father take it if a mother told him that he needs to shut his mouth up because his 12 year old son has more authority than him? Lol. I can see this going very very badly for everyone.

He may get upset too, just like the sisters in here are getting. But it would still remain true. Has nothing to do with gender. Let me repeat that again, has nothing to do with gender. This is about proper ordination as outlined in the scriptures.

John the Baptist was ordained while still a child, much younger than 12 years old. Did he not have the authority to establish God's Kingdom? Mind you, he only had the Aaronic Priesthood but Joseph Smith states that that was enough for him to have established the Kingdom of God on the Earth.

The 12 year old has zero authority to stand in that meeting and claim to be a set apart missionary. Do you think otherwise?

The translation for the claim she made was “traveling sister” do you believe a female missionary has no right to say she’s a sister missionary?

MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:43 am

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:38 am

Connie561 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:30 am

MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 9:56 am

This thread was about the shaming this MP did.

I still believe a 12 year old boy doesn’t carry authority over the women of the church. He can pass the sacrament. Big deal.

No woman I know wants to be a man. But every woman I know desires to be respected by men not thought of as inferior. That’s what this MP actions did to this woman. He put her down. He wouldn’t have (pretty confident in this) said such a put down to a male missionary in public....because this man revealed he actually thinks little of women.

Everyone should feel good about their membership, status and participation in this church. It’s not pride to pursue such a thing. If women feel inferior then there is an imbalance. Men don’t feel inferior because they don’t have a uterus because it’s not a problem or been shown to put men inferior to women. Men do not understand how women feel or what’s in their heart. It’s easy to judge from the sidelines.

There is no male envy or wanting to be men or even wanting priesthood office. It’s a bit more complex

A Deacon Quorum President is one of four people in a ward who hold Priesthood Keys. He only holds the keys over his quorum. So he does not hold the keys over women in the church.

No, but he does still hold more priesthood authority than any sister in the ward. Not an opinion, just fact. This is silly even to compare the two honestly. Of course he has more priesthood authority by virtue of the fact that women dont hold any priesthood. This is a ridiculous comparison.

Sure he has the priesthood but the example given was a 12 year old having authority over a sister missionary. It should have been stated that a brother missionary in a position of leadership had more authority than she did as a lay missionary. This MP made it about priesthood instead of leadership roles in the mission field. That is where he went wrong. Do you honestly believe he had to call her out because she believed she had the priesthood and ability to baptize like the elders do? I 100% doubt it. Every woman knows she doesn’t have the priesthood to bless and pass or to baptize or confer or seal.

I have to admit it wasn't the best example he could have used, because Deacons hold no keys over the women in the church. He did need to call her out for poisoning the well.

I wasnt there for this exchange. Keep in mind we have only heard a 3rd hand account of what happened. Neither the sister missionary nor the MP have told us their version of events. I prefer not to pass judgement before I have all the relevant facts.

Of course a 12 year old shouldnt "stand up before the congregation and declare they are set apart as a missionary", that would be a lie. I'm not sure why you asked that.

Connie561 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:51 am

MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:43 am

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:38 am

Connie561 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:30 am

A Deacon Quorum President is one of four people in a ward who hold Priesthood Keys. He only holds the keys over his quorum. So he does not hold the keys over women in the church.

No, but he does still hold more priesthood authority than any sister in the ward. Not an opinion, just fact. This is silly even to compare the two honestly. Of course he has more priesthood authority by virtue of the fact that women dont hold any priesthood. This is a ridiculous comparison.

Sure he has the priesthood but the example given was a 12 year old having authority over a sister missionary. It should have been stated that a brother missionary in a position of leadership had more authority than she did as a lay missionary. This MP made it about priesthood instead of leadership roles in the mission field. That is where he went wrong. Do you honestly believe he had to call her out because she believed she had the priesthood and ability to baptize like the elders do? I 100% doubt it. Every woman knows she doesn’t have the priesthood to bless and pass or to baptize or confer or seal.

I have to admit it wasn't the best example he could have used, because Deacons hold no keys over the women in the church. He did need to call her out for poisoning the well.

Exactly, and that is some are stating that what he did was wrong. Yet now it’s about priesthood hanging over the heads of women when that was not what it was about.

The OP stated that he did not hear all that this sister said so we don’t know if she was poisoning the well or not. We just assume he was in the right but based on his comment, he was not in the right.

MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 9:46 am

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 8:48 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 8:38 pm

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 8:30 pm

God bless that Mission president for telling her the truth. I agree, maybe he should not have said it in public like that, but it remains true.

And no, endowments do not equal priesthood. So please do not make silly claims like that. Priesthood comes by ordination only.

Women receive priesthood in the temple endowment. Priesthood OFFICES come by ordination, but priesthood POWER comes from God alone. Priesthood power is the power to know what God wants you to do, and then to do it. Ordination to a priesthood office is not the same.

President Nelson recently tried to teach this to the women of the church.

No, they dont. They recieve access to priesthood blessings by going through the temple, but they dont recieve any priesthood or power other than the blessings (which are indeed numerous) for temple attendance. President Nelson is in full "appease rabid feminist" mode. You can see the changes made to the endowment were 100.percent for these angry women who dont like to even "hearken to the council of their husbands" mentioned to them. You can spin it all you want, women do not hold priesthood. While it is true that ultimate power comes from God, and many priesthood holders for unworthy reasons will not have it when they want it, it is still impossible for an unordained person, Male or female, to wield priesthood power without having been properly ordained. As the scripture state, "no man taketh this honor upon himself". (That includes sisters)

Again, I am not advocating public shaming, but his statement remains true. A 12 year old deacon holds more authority than the Pope of Rome, a Baptist minister, Jimmy Swaggart or any other tele-evangelist out there. The truth is, they have more authority than any sister in the church as well. You may nor like it, but there you have it. It is an unfortunate truth of how Lord establishes His Kingdom.

Do you believe a 12 year old boy (assuming he’s a deacon) has more authority than heavenly mother?

Preisthood authority, yes. HM doesnt have any preisthood. However, she knows infinitely more about the cosmos, righteousness, glories, and the mysteries of the Kingdom and than any man or woman alive today. Add to that that she holds the highest position of all women under our Heavenly Father. What is the point to this question?

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:54 am I wasnt there for this exchange. Keep in mind we have only heard a 3rd hand account of what happened. Neither the sister missionary nor the MP have told us their version of events. I prefer not to pass judgement before I have all the relevant facts.

Of course a 12 year old shouldnt "stand up before the congregation and declare they are set apart as a missionary", that would be a lie. I'm not sure why you asked that.

BY default of the 12 year old being dragged into it. The mission field has nothing to do with 12 year olds. My point is that a 12 year old shouldn’t have been brought into the conversation at all because he is not a missionary and it was out of place and seems irrelevant at all to bring him into it.

If she thought she had the priesthood then sure tell her she doesn’t. But if she believed she did then how did she get to be there in the first place...someone should have told her in her 19+ years of life that priesthood is for men.

But I don’t think it was about that at all.

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:59 am

MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 9:46 am

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 8:48 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 8:38 pm

Women receive priesthood in the temple endowment. Priesthood OFFICES come by ordination, but priesthood POWER comes from God alone. Priesthood power is the power to know what God wants you to do, and then to do it. Ordination to a priesthood office is not the same.

President Nelson recently tried to teach this to the women of the church.

No, they dont. They recieve access to priesthood blessings by going through the temple, but they dont recieve any priesthood or power other than the blessings (which are indeed numerous) for temple attendance. President Nelson is in full "appease rabid feminist" mode. You can see the changes made to the endowment were 100.percent for these angry women who dont like to even "hearken to the council of their husbands" mentioned to them. You can spin it all you want, women do not hold priesthood. While it is true that ultimate power comes from God, and many priesthood holders for unworthy reasons will not have it when they want it, it is still impossible for an unordained person, Male or female, to wield priesthood power without having been properly ordained. As the scripture state, "no man taketh this honor upon himself". (That includes sisters)

Again, I am not advocating public shaming, but his statement remains true. A 12 year old deacon holds more authority than the Pope of Rome, a Baptist minister, Jimmy Swaggart or any other tele-evangelist out there. The truth is, they have more authority than any sister in the church as well. You may nor like it, but there you have it. It is an unfortunate truth of how Lord establishes His Kingdom.

Do you believe a 12 year old boy (assuming he’s a deacon) has more authority than heavenly mother?

Preisthood authority, yes. HM doesnt have any preisthood. However, she knows infinitely more about the cosmos, righteousness, glories, and the mysteries of the Kingdom and than any man or woman alive today. Add to that that she holds the highest position of all women under our Heavenly Father. What is the point to this question?

My point of the question was too see how far men take this state of mind. Surely a 12 year old does have more authority than heavenly mother and you basically stated so. It doesn’t matter how much you know because that sister missionary knows way more than the 12 year old does.

Your also showing the other issue here that this woman was shamed because she is seen as young and dumb by the MP. He wouldn’t do that do a more wise woman then why do it to a less wise woman?

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:43 am

nightlight wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:36 am

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:30 am

nightlight wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:16 am

Yes it does....it's show our church teaches people to be clowns.
Hence all this authority talk from people who can't heal a paper cut.

With faith that poor, yeah, it doesnt surprise me you havent witnessed any healing miracles.

My friend was born blind.....may I bring him to you?

Why? Are the sisters who have preisthood power too busy lately?

Sorry, in all seriousness, something like that is not something we should joke about.

I am lacking in bringing forth the power of Kingdom. Im still a babe in Christ.

I'm just sayin.... I'd have the same luck bringing my blind friend to some random lady ....as I would bringing him to you. Why is that?

Why do our High Priest send the possessed to psychiatrist?
Why do our high priest send the cancer ridden get chemo therapy?

What... is this the new thing of God to give a man chemotherapy mixed with a dose of priesthood blessing?

I Guarantee we're the first Saints to give crippled children Wheelchairs and call it a miracle!!!

our church weaves trusting in the arm of Flesh and the power of God.....the result is a bunch of clowns running around yelling about their "authority"


14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
------------

1And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

2Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

The Ministry of the Twelve

(Mark 6:7-13; Luke 9:1-6)

5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. 9Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat--

Stahura is exactly right. An ordinance in and of itself will give you absolutely nothing from God, unless you've got the repentant, contrite heart to back it up.

To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:56 am

Connie561 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:51 am

MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:43 am

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 10:38 am

No, but he does still hold more priesthood authority than any sister in the ward. Not an opinion, just fact. This is silly even to compare the two honestly. Of course he has more priesthood authority by virtue of the fact that women dont hold any priesthood. This is a ridiculous comparison.

Sure he has the priesthood but the example given was a 12 year old having authority over a sister missionary. It should have been stated that a brother missionary in a position of leadership had more authority than she did as a lay missionary. This MP made it about priesthood instead of leadership roles in the mission field. That is where he went wrong. Do you honestly believe he had to call her out because she believed she had the priesthood and ability to baptize like the elders do? I 100% doubt it. Every woman knows she doesn’t have the priesthood to bless and pass or to baptize or confer or seal.

I have to admit it wasn't the best example he could have used, because Deacons hold no keys over the women in the church. He did need to call her out for poisoning the well.

Exactly, and that is some are stating that what he did was wrong. Yet now it’s about priesthood hanging over the heads of women when that was not what it was about.

The OP stated that he did not hear all that this sister said so we don’t know if she was poisoning the well or not. We just assume he was in the right but based on his comment, he was not in the right.

If and Elder got up during a missionary meeting and said because I am a Zone Leader I am better at tracting, teaching,etc. ,than you Sister missionaries than he would need to be put in his place because he is poisoning the well. I don't know what a Mission President would say but, I doubt he would keep his mouth shut.